THMs are spent chlorine, aka chloromines. It's something that you can easily test for, cheaply.

Ozone is indeed the most powerful oxidizer. Put an atmosphere of it in a room and it will eat iron or your lungs even faster than chlorine.

FDA doesn't approve anything for pool use. Drinking water is an entirely different application. It also knocks out Cryptosporidium, a tough biobaddy, much faster than chlorine.

Ozone does nothing for in water transmittal from one person to another, of germs like a cold or skin infection. This is a major reason chlorine is one of the two sanitizers that the EPA mandates to be used.

Ozone should be used in commercial pools with relatively high usage patterns. These pools tend to have a much faster turnover rate with their water and with the added numbers of different people visiting the facility, the chances of acquiring a water born infection are increased. It's somewhat of a rare occurrence but when it happens, it can happen to a lot of people at once.

Residential pools, because the number of different people using the pool is substantially reduced.

Scott

This reads like an ad, yet now links to buy anything.

All the PB's I talked to when bid shopping said ozone is a supplemental system at best, and would be geeky expensive upgrade.

If you try to operate your pool with a residential Ozone generator only, I guarantee you will have a "Green" solution.

"If you try to operate your pool with a residential Ozone generator only, I guarantee you will have a "Green" solution."

Probably not. If the circulation system is doing its job, planktonic algae wouldn't stand a fighting chance.

Dear consumers: every negative response to my post is from another pool builder. Personally I like to promote and support the use of "Green" technology in all aspects of my building. I have been asked many times why I like Ozone, so I made this posting as an explanation. In my business experience, I have found that people generally do not like change. Take it for what it's worth...I like Ozone technology and others do not. You might find this article helpful in determining what you want for your pool:

"Is Ozone viable for swimming pools? Recently a chemical-free public swimming pool was installed in Fairhope, Alabama. It uses Ozone technology and avoids the use of chlorine altogether. This is a first for public pools in North America.

The United States Navy Dolphin program has switched to Ozone technology over the last several years. A spokesman there stated that these systems have delivered the best water quality they have seen out of any systems they tried.

Numerous other private, public, commercial, waterpark and hotel and motel pools have switched to Ozone technologies as people become more concerned about chlorine and chlorinated byproducts. Other than the issue of carcinogens and other health problems, what are the relative benefits of Ozone vs. chlorine?

One of the main problems with adopting Ozone is that there is a higher initial capital cost to the swimming pool compared to chlorine. However, over the life of the pool Ozone and ultraviolet technologies reduce the on-going operating and maintenance costs. These costs can be significant. Chlorine is famous for destroying pool infrastructures, rusting out ventilation systems and destroying pool liners etc. Ozone poses no such problems.

The Ozone pool will be much cleaner, which means dirt, grease, oils, organics and other materials will wind up in the filter system much faster than with chlorinated systems. If the filter and strainer maintenance is not stepped up accordingly, the pool recirculating system will slow down and the pool will actually look dirtier than with Chlorine. However, proper maintenance of the filter system will solve this problem.

Part of the problem in adopting Ozone is that engineers, architects, pool builders and designers are not familiar with the technology. Some applications of Ozone, particularly systems installed 10-15 years ago were plagued with technical problems. Even though Ozone systems have been in regular use in Europe and other areas of the world since the 1950's, pools here have generally relied on chlorine. Since our engineering, architectural and other technical training have all been geared to Chlorine, it takes re-education to now apply Ozone. Many people in these industries are reluctant to "shift gears" and take the time to educate themselves about the proper application of Ozone.

What is the difference in technologies? Chlorine is a complex man-made chemical that found original use in the infamous "mustard gas" of the First World War. Ozone has been in use for over 100 years, primarily in Europe and was first put to use for water purification, odor control and in medical hospitals (it is still being used medically today, though not commonly in North America).

Ozone is made from Oxygen or O2, which is converted through electricity to Ozone or O3. Ozone is a much more powerful oxidant than chlorine. However, the "shelf life" of Ozone is limited. It must be manufactured and used on-site. This is done through Ozone Generators which convert Oxygen in the air into Ozone.

As well, Ozone is considered a "short-term" disinfectant and chlorine is considered a "long-term" disinfectant. Chlorine is also an entrenched technology. It has been widely used in North America and was first adopted at the turn of the century. It is still the reigning champion of disinfection and has many supporters in the chemical and swimming pool industries.

"As we have seen in this series, there are credible researchers telling us that chlorine has some very serious health consequences when used as a sanitizer in swimming pools. The obvious question is why hasn't the swimming pool industry adopted alternative technologies on a much more industry-wide basis? After all, Ozone technology for swimming pools has been in regular use for over 50 years in places like Germany, France and other European nations...

"If you consider that there have been several generations of engineers who have been taught chemical processes as a matter of course, it is not easy to persuade them that switching to this "new" (to North America) technology is the way to go. As well, some of the earlier North American produced Ozone systems were problematic and many engineers do not want to risk specifying equipment if they are not comfortable with the process.

However, time marches on and the technology is becoming very reliable. Is Ozone starting to gain a foothold in water treatment and for swimming pools in North America? Without a doubt. Some of the largest Ozonation plants in the world have been built in the United States. Major North American cities such as Los Angeles, Dallas, and Montreal, Canada have installed large Ozone plants for water treatment. Some of the major pool operators in North America including Disney's water parks use Ozone technology. The United States Navy has switched to Ozone systems for their Dolphin programs. As these technology leaders continue to push for alternatives to Chlorine, acceptance of the technology will be more favorable.

Other encouraging signs include the City of Fairhope, AL which has distinguished itself with the implementation of an Olympic-sized swimming pool that is operated as Ozone-only with only slight chemical assistance. Many consumers are also requesting Ozone systems for their backyard swimming pools. Regulations for these pools do not require them to use Chlorine or other chemicals and many owners are now opting for Ozone systems.

Once pool owners switch, they realize that they no longer have to put up with red eye, rashes and the health consequences of chlorinated pools.

As the technology becomes more prevalent, expect to see more expertise at the local pool builder or pool maintenance companies. However, many of these companies rely on repeat sales of chemicals. These companies are likely to be highly resistant to Ozone systems as after-sales revenues will drop. However, for pool maintenance companies that are being paid to keep pool cleans, Ozone is a good thing. They should spend less time maintaining pools and the pools will be cleaner and the water more appealing. In the future, expect Ozone prices to drop and as more consumers become educated, demand for systems will definitely increase."

womanowned, I am not a builder. I am a service professional. I also freely give to others the knowledge given freely to me.

The only way to get from the same to better is to be different 1st.

Ozone is not a Green technology. Ever watch the Weather Channel? During the summer, the primary pollutant listed is Ozone.

I have never bashed you. I have stated in the past as well in these recent threads, that you create some real gems. I have never heard any of your customers say otherwise also which leads me to believe you are a straight shooter.

I do wonder who sold you so strongly on ozone. The evidence doesn't seem to support your apparent convictions.

I will, until someone can provide evidence that that proves otherwise, continue to consider ozone nothing more than a supplemental system. This is based on plenty of research, facts, evidence, experience, etc...

The City of Fairhope facility will be shut down by the local board of health if they can't test the water for sanitizer levels. No board would ever risk a water born outbreak of infections. Remember, ozone does nothing for the body of water. Micro-organisms tend to reproduce very rapidly. It can take over 4 turns of the body of water to actually get all of it through the filter system, where the ozone is active. If the pool is designed for a 6 hour turn and it takes 2 hours for a colony for reproduce, do you really think an ozone system could keep up? I sincerely doubt the local BoH will be convinced that it could. Chlorine kill over 99% of the bio-baddies in under a minute in the pool. Ozone kills nearly none. It only gets what is passing through the filter system.

Most commercial facilities that expect heavy loads should have ozone to supplement. Residential pools have a much more controlled usage pattern. They don't need it. It's a pricey toy that might make some feel better.

Continuing to site municipal water and sewer systems as reasons doesn't cut it. Pools are entirely different. Water systems with ozone plants have the supply pass once before reaching the distribution network. Pool water is recycled over and over and it's sanitation demands are significantly higher.

Part of a water supplier's sanitation includes the immune systems of the people and pets that consume it. The sewer system plants use many different technologies to make the waste water we create with showers, washers, toilets, etc... before returning the treated water safely to the environment. These include the use of microbes, settling tanks, chlorine, ozone, and I am sure other things too. None of the applications you site are pool related.

I have no settling tanks, microbes or ozone for my pool. I do use chlorine, both pucks and liquid. I use baking soda, muriatic acid, and dense ash for alk and pH control. Thats it. I do a complete test at least once a week, I vacuum when needed. I haven't used algaecide for two years. Haven't needed it. Precautionary shocking and after a large gathering ensure it stays that way.

I teach this to my customers. Those that listen get to swim, those that don't learn the hard way that they should.

I think you might find it beneficial to add the TFP BBB system of pool chemistry maintenance to your customers pools. It saves them money and will build your credibility.

Scott

"THMs are spent chlorine, aka chloromines. It's something that you can easily test for, cheaply. "

THM S and chloramines have nothing to do with each other.

THM is a byproduct of oxidization of organic matter. THM are a know carcinogen.

Chloramine is HOCL combined with ammonia.

I stand humbly corrected to a point. There has been a case study that showed a possible correlation when test mice were given different types of THMs in a corn syrup, not aqueous, solution like pool water.

I read the following two links offered up by Google:

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/bathing/srwe2chap4.pdf

This article points out that the water we drink from municipalities is worse for us than pool water. It's filled real test data from several places around the world.

and

http://health.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/06/09/greening-your-pool/

The first makes for some serious, factual, intense reading.

The second cites little real fact. It does show a real market spin by sounding like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. What they don't tell you is telling.

I've said what I have said about ozone generators.

Ionizers, be they solar or line powered, inject metal ions. They do build up and stain if you are lax with your chems. Kill times are longer than reproduction times.

UV is going to kill what can be killed. What that leaves behind should get filtered. Since chlorine is added last to return water, the two together hold some promise. If UV doesn't effect free residual chlorine and or frees combined chlorine, that would be great and nirvana.

What I haven't found is what effect the a disinfection unit has on the residual chlorine. It doesn't like the Sun's UV much, that's for sure.

Scott

Scott, have you ever tried ozone as a pool sanitizer combined with chlorine? I would be interested in your experience if you have personal experience. Otherwise, I can't figure out why you are so adamantly against it. It has been successfully used for swimming pools in Europe for over 50 years.

The person who objects to the word "Green" does not understand the word in its current marketing context. "Green" means environmentally friendly. Ozone in the air (pollution) is an entirely different kind of ozone that what we use for pools. I know it can get confusing, but you are talking about apples vs. oranges. Man made chemicals are not environmentally friendly. Ozone, as produced through UV light, is friendlier to our environment than our sanitizers.

I have installed over 50 ozone systems, and I can't honestly say that residential systems make a massive difference. Most people don't even realize it when they break.

I am against wasting money. Since chlorine oxidizes efficiently, sanitizes, is testable, works, is cheap and easy to use, and is dependable, why spend the money on ozone?

That chlorine in pools contributes to the creation of THMs. Well, they do but 100s times less than municipal water systems that use chlorine in some manner. Neither present significant health threats. Hundreds of millions of people benefit from it's use.

I have and have had many customers that use them and others that ripped them out. I even swam in them. I couldn't tell but I think it was also wet.

Ozone is O3. Period. How and where it forms in the atmosphere is relevant, the higher, the better and safer. Up high, it block UV from the sun. Down low, it is normally present with other pollutants. For people with breathing issues, this adds further discomfort.

When used in a pool, it is mixed in the water at the pump where it can, if it happenstances in a contaminant, does it's thing or it breaks down in to 02. Chlorine usually gets to these things first.

I am not saying an ozone generator contributes to either the ozone layer or to air pollution. It won't. But the point that it is not Green solution in my book since it uses electricity, uses mercury and possibly other harmful products in the manufacturing processes required to fabricate them, eliminates them from being ecologically friendly.

The term "Green" is a word the marketing folks have gotten a hold of and being marketing folks, will beat it silly until someone comes up with the next word.

I try to be environmentally friendly. I don't toss the empty McDonald's bag out the window, I recycle my cans. bottles and boxes, etc... but sometimes I forget turn off the lights.

What? No gasps of horror? Of course not. Nobody gives a rats gas (rhyme time). Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. I am not Jesus but I pay attention. Green is just a word.

Context usages is the land of marketing folks. I'm not a marketing guy. I am small business owner and pool service professional. Green means Go to me or the color of grass. In pools, to me, Green means algae, not ecologically friendly. In forestry, it means planting seedlings. That, to me, makes business sense as well as ecological sense. Not that I am as passionate as the local advocates against relicensing the oldest commercial generating reactor, I do care but my point stands that Green is just a word.

In case you didn't notice, man is not environmentally friendly. The chems we manufacture are not the culprits any more than saying guns killed people. People kill people, not the guns. Man trying to control and manage the environment is like inmates running the asylum.

Scott

Does anyone have any test results of a pool before and after ozone? I would like to see some real world results for the following tests.

(1) I have heard that ozone systems consume FC. However the manufacturers claim that ozone reduces chlorine usage. Does anyone have any test results proving an ozone system does not consume FC? This should be a simple test of proving you have no FC loss overnight, then repeating the test with the pump and ozone system on yielding the same results.

(2) I have heard that ozone allows you to keep a lower chlorine level than necessary. Has anyone determined if running an ozone system allows you to reduce the FC levels recommended for a specific CYA level? For example my CYA is 50, my FC should be kept at 5, but if I run ozone I can target a lower FC number?

(3) I have also heard that ozone consumes CC's therefore significantly reducing the need to ever have to shock your pool. Can anyone confirm that an ozone system has resulted in reduced CC readings over a series of tests?

I know ozone cannot be a standalone sanitizer, but would also like to know if it provides any benefits as many PB's and vendors suggest.

jeff_jeff,

Excessive ozone injection can oxidize freshly chlorinated as well as residual, thereby increasing demand. There are too many variables to calculate it. Every pool is different.

The combined chorine, AFAIK, does NOT normally become free chlorine when ozone comes into contact with whatever the chlorine combined with. Chlorine and Ozone are on opposite sides of the REDOX reactions.

Remember why FC needs to be 10% of the CYA level. Do not reduce the FC level.

Scott