The appearance probably has to do with the pH level of the solvent. I am unsure of acetone's actual alkalinity, but the darkening effect means it may have to be neutralized.

Acetone typically has a pH pf 6-7. Slightly acid to neutral.

I wouldn't think acetone is strongly acidic or basic, since it is not a water based product, although it is water soluble, and there may be some water in it. I have been using acetone to clean my ipe based on recommendations I had read (but I can't remember where). I have noticed the exact same effect you describe. I think a lot of it may be due to cleaning the fine saw dust out of the pores of the freshly milled wood. It may also be removing some of the natural oils in the wood. I think this was the reason for using acetone, to allow the final finish to penetrate deeper into the wood by removing some of the surface oil.

I did try this method on a few sample boards about a month or 2 ago. The boards were inside for a while, then outside, sometimes in sun, sometimes in shade. The TWP, Messmers and ETP (?) samples sre still on the boards, with no obvious ill effects. It's hard to tell if the color has changed, though, over the short test period. The redwood color may have mellowed a bit, but I'm not sure.

lindymike,

you are correct in that technically acetone does not have a pH (pH= negative log of the hydrogen ion content) and acetone is organic not aqueous.....but usually is miscible with trace amounts of water....the difference in color is most likely due to acetone solublizing the oils and the "yellow dust" know as lapachol...which by the way is structurally related to Vitamin K, melts at 140 degrees celcius, and is soluble in alcohol, chloroform, benzene, acetic acid, and slightly soluble in ether and hot water. and forms a bright red color in aqueous alkaline solutions....Sorry its the chemist in me!:)

Cool info!! Does this mean if I get a big Ipe splinter, my blood will clot faster? Even more important, does removing the lapachol help with stain adhesion? Is the dust really a dust, or some kind of wax / alcohol? Can the reaction with alkaline solutions be used to manipulate the color of the wood, or is it more of a lab curiosity w/ no practical application? Thanks!!

This discussion is intriguing, and I'm going to set up some tests and control samples to see what its effect might be.

But if you're planning to use it, keep the smokers away. Acetone has a flash point of -4 F!

Sprinks

Lindymike,
Well lapachol is a reported respiratory inhibitor and anti-tumor activity.....removing the lapachol "theoretically will help with stain adhesion as you are removing material from the wood pores and thus allow deeper penetration...but real world tests would need to prove this...pure lapachol is a yellow crytalline material and is present in the "dust" from sawing/cutting....manipulating color via its reaction with caustic (sodium hydroxide/caustic/potassium hydroxide) will most likely not work...upon addition of the base you form the sodium salt which has some water solubility and thus surface salt would wash away and any salt deepr in the wood would eventually "wash" out ...thus not permanent color change could be guaranteed in my view.

"you are correct in that technically acetone does not have a pH (pH= negative log of the hydrogen ion content)"

No, this is not correct.
The concept of acids and bases was extended long ago to cover compounds that do not have free hydrogen in solution but can still act as an acid or base to bind or release hydrogen (or hydroxyl).
While the hydrogen is not free as in a conventional acid, the compound can release hydrogen and act as an acid during chemical reactions. Many polar compounds exhibit this behavior since polarity implies an uneven charge distribution and the ability to attach may be present.

Either way, the pH of the acetone is unlikely to be causing any change you see. More likely is the selective removal of extractives present in the wood. Extractives are the chemicals that trees (and other plants) concentrate in the dead heartwood of the tree. In many cases they produce the resistance to rot of the wood, and produce the color differences between heartwood and sapwood. Sapwood is still alive (some more than others) and in the process of being converted into heartwood by deposition of extractives into the cells.
The staining is likely permanent, but you can hope that weathering (or a finish layer) can minimize the difference with the surrounding material.

good stuff... I'm still not sold.... more please.

"you are correct in that technically acetone does not have a pH (pH= negative log of the hydrogen ion content)"

"No, this is not correct."

Yes TECHNICALLY this is correct. Water should be added to the non-aqueous liquid and mixed, because pH cannot be determined without the presence of water.

What you are trying to explain is either
1)the concept of Lewis Acids and Lewis Bases which do NOT deal with hydrogen release or hydroxyl release but rather the acceptance or donation of an electron pair from another species
2) The Arrhenius Concept of Acid and Bases which is - an acid is a substance that, when dissolved in water, increases the concentration of hydrogen ion, H+ (aq). The Arrehnius base increases the concentration of hydroxide, OH- ion.

Therefore, the pH which you can measure with an instrument (an electrode) uses the Nerst equation which involves measuring hydrogen ion concetration and !PURE! acetone does not self dissociate.

pH requires water. I will remind my chemical engineer of that. Maybe in the biology lab, but not in a number of industrial settings. There are a number of acid/base reactions that occur in solutes other than water.

George, me too!

George @ East Teak....curious what you use when gluing???...I need to plug some countersinks and have seen tightbond 111 mentioned...what do you use and have found to be acceptable?

Curious too of peoples observation of 2x4 warp when using it as the bottom rail of a section of deck railing....It will be standing with the 4" side vertical (ie thin side 2" will be top and bottom)...will there be much warp in or out, not up/down, if using something like the "Deckorator" alumminum rails which literally sit between the rails and don't "tie" the rails together like wooden balusters would.

We use titebond on our glue up jobs. I have never seen a joint break. As far as 2 x 4 warp, if it is not warped or twisted when I receive the material, it remains strait.
Our sample rail sits on our asphalt yard. It has been as stable as a rock

Sprinks,

any results on your testing....I have a piece of IPE here on my deck at work (chemistry lab) which I wiped half with acetone....the color changed noted previously by donk4kyv(to a much darker brown)...is also seen in my sample...the acetone actually solublized the lapachol (yellow duct) and removed it from the surface grain of the wood....you can see the depressions in the grain structure much better now that the powder has been removed and thus the "lighter" yellowish color gone and the deep browns and reds come thru....the side rubbed with just water returned to the light brwon/yellow color and still appears fairly flat grain surface....I would think that any finish applied to the acetone side would now have MUCH better absorption....what did your tests show if anything????

Assuming that the lapachol is the sealer penetration inhibitor, you'd be right. My chemical cleaning process achieves the same removal of surface contaminates and probably removes a fraction of the wood's lignin. My results sealing ipe are mediocre at best.

I'd be curious to see the color result if you take your sample and expose it to oxalic acid.

pressurepros,

will do the oxalic acid tomorrow...not a problem seeing as I am a chemist by trade I have access to all these chemicals and more!! :)

Sweet11395,

I observed the same color change as you, but the tests I'm running are side-by-side samples out in the elements. I will add another sample that has been prepped by oxalic acid after the initial acetone treatment.

I don't have a lab oven and freezer with adequate ventilation to remove volatiles that might vaporize, so I can't do speedier tests, but if you have the time and inclination, I'd be interested in your results.

Sprinks

Any further thoughts on using acetone on Ipe to remove yellow debris in the grain?

My conclusion is the tonation change is caused by the oils present in the acetone.

I would have to disagree with that pressure pro....I used reagent grade acetone (pure- no oils or contaminants) and you get the change in color tone....its darker because you remove the lighter colored "yellow dust" which is claimed to be the lapachol

There is no oil in acetone, even the stuff you buy at Home Depot. If you put some on a piece of glass and let it evaporate, there will be nothing left behind on the glass. When you clean a piece of Ipe with acetone, the yellow material in the grain of the wood disappears, and the individual lines of wood grain are deeper, because they don't have the yellow stuff in them, filling them up. Something else happens, too. If you spill some acetone and let it sit on a board you have already cleaned with acetone, when it dries, you will see an outline of the puddle in a dark purpish red color. This is very difficult to remove, and seems to be a chemical that comes from the Ipe itself. I just stained my deck this weekend with TWP after cleaning with acetone only, no acid, base, or bleach. I will be the guinea pig for the community here, and report back how it all holds up. It looks great now, though!!

There are oils in mineral spirits. I'll have to do some research but I was told this by a large manufacturer of stains and sealers. When I get the time to do a run down, I'll report back. I could be the recipient of bad information or perhaps I misconstrued.

todays chemistry lesson! :)
acetone and mineral spirits are not the same substance...mineral spirits are a mixture of C7-C12 hydrocarbons (generally >65% of C10 or higher)...and acetone is a pure compund (C3H6O) as called dimethyl ketone....pure acetone has no oils but mineral spirits bought in stores may have oils added.

thanks sweet, I knew I could count on you to come through.

OK lindymike,

spring is here (even though we got 1 inch of snow this afternoon here in central NJ) and I was wondering how the TWP held up on your acetone only cleaned IPE deck????
believe it or not I'm still finishing the trim work on mine :( will put TWP on once I am onvinced of several days of warm dry weather.

I'm a chemist by schooling, and find all this a great review however...right now I have a brand spankin' new ipe deck that I wanna get cleaned and treated to look rich and deep. Cost is no issue. I want to do this right and get started off on the right (correct) foot. What is the best method, the best product(s) and the best tools to use to get the deep, rich wood look that will protect against fading? The deck will get tons of sun. I'll treat it twice a year if I need, but I gotta figure out what to use! Thanks.

If you were closer to me I realy have come up with a winning combination for ipe. Unfortunately it is for my local customers only. Next year I will introduce it on my website and it is for customers that want beauty as well as longevity on their hardwood decks.

For the tme being I continue to recommend Cabot's Aussie Oil on the hardwood decks

pressurepros.....sent you a PM about this "new winning combination" you speak of....

How did you send a pm? Moreso, how do I view a pm? I didn't realize this site had the option to do that.

I clicked on the "my page" link after your name in the post....then took me to your page and clicked on the link "send me an email"....so probably is in your email account you registered this site with.....

Ken (pressurepros) ,
I resent that message to your customer service email address on your website...hopefully you'll get it and can help out. Thanks in advance for the great stuff on here

We used imperial cleanwoode wood cleaner on our newly installed ipe porch. The wood cleaner contains toluene (108-88-3), acetone (67-64-1), isopropyl alcohol (67-63-0), methanol (67-56-1) and butyl acetate (125-86-4). After a couple of hours, the wood still has streak marks where we applied more of the wood cleaner. What should we do? Will the streaks go away if we use Penofin to stain the porch? Please help.