You can put the second coat on 6 months from now if you want.

Thanks. I wasn't sure if the "wet on wet" patented process that you use really needed to be done asap or just the second coat did the trick.

I'm just going to add my two cents here. TWP is a penetrating sealer. If a second coat is to be applied it should be applied immediately (thus the wet on wet)so the sealer can still penetrate. Applying it like John says is not recommended. You turn the second coat into a film former with all the possible inherent characteristics like failure, peeling etc. TWP seems to be more resistant to this effect, but eventually it will happen.

Ken,dont make me come down there!!! It is possible to put the second coat of 116 twp on right away its not mandatory, this material melts to itself as well as supperdeck and few other finishes for all intent without time being a factor.I have done it for years all a person has to do is try it.It might be easy for me because I have a background doing fancy lacqure things burning several colors on top of each other for an inside color to come thru several layers of different colors thats what I compare twp finish to,it bonds to its self and to the wood but stays flexable enough to stand the weather changes. TWP does not know what they have,one guy told me his local rep advised thining down the product for hardwoods this is ingorance and they are missing a lot of sales.Characteristics Smararistic all I can say is failure,peeling etc has never happened to any of my projects including my own with muilti muilti coats done over a 3 year span, eventually is a long time I did my backdoor deck right after 911 how much more eventually I have to wait to see all this?? I dont even know but if it happens I will give you a call ol Ken. Side note>>> did Sprinks smoke the sealmax guy or what!!! Major Grins, John

Hey Johnny, thats the only thing I am worried about telling homeonwers to do the same process, they may not have the same results.

I like Sprinks, he knows what he is doing and besides he is a local guy (go Main Line!). I have responded to a few of his emails but I never heard back from him (sprinks that is) As far as the SealMaxx blow hard, good riddance.

"SealMaxx blow hard" You guys are pure class. One of you knows more about the product than the manufacturer that makes it, and brags about mis-applications. The other brews his own snake oil and touts it as the best thing on the market...completely unsubstantiated, of course.

"Did old Sprinks smoke the SealMaxx guy or what?" Uhhh, let's see...we agreed with each other. More testing would be great.

To set the record straight, neither of you have seen this product. Neither of you have any experience with this product. One of you is selling a homegrown product that is undocumented, and substantiated only by your own claims. The other gives application advice that is contrary to the manufacturer's recommendations...but of course, you are the expert.

When you can't provide anything more than anecdotal responses, you start slinging mud.

One of you claims that you've seen a deck sealed with a simlar product, and post pictures to validate your claim. You don't have a clue regarding the technology used, but you're sure you've seen a similar application. You offer to provide a name and phone number...but never come through. Then you analogize about a flower dipped in a preservative that gives the flower an artificial appearance, which could not be a less analogous illustration...but you've seen a deck sealed with a similar product! You're just sure you have.

Gentlemen, if you can't come up with solid response at least acknowledging that you're unfamiliar with the product...and let it drop.

On the other hand, you represent my favorite competition. Keep it up guys. your bad advice and "high professional standards" are driving your customers away looking for a better solution, and a better company to take care of their decks. The good news is that there are lots of deck contractors just like you with bad solutions, bad advice, bad ideas.

You guys remind me of a couple of ten year olds.

Hey Ken, this happens every now and then,a wantabe with nothing to add,not a deck builder,never bid a job in his life, ol kev will probley be hanging around for a while, probley just have to put up with it. John

I find it amusing.

Kevin, where are you coming up with a snake oil product (you meant the Seal Maxx, right? Because that product DEFINES the term snake oil) I sell no type of sealer whatsoever.

You crack me up, you respond to posts that get your emotional dander in a tuft, but have no reasonable response when asked to explain your product with science. You spout rhetoric like an utter amateur that has ZERO experience in the field. Lest I forget though, you have a huge database of customers. Mmm hmmmm. You and Seal Maxx will be out of business in a few years, if you can stay ahead of the attorney general that long.

John and I will continue to serve the needs of our customers (quite well I might add) and laugh the next time another joker selling HIS version of snake oil tries to take advantage of unsuspecting consumers.

The nice thing about dealing with you guys is you're consistent. Again...you don't have facts, so you make up your own. Can't respond from an informed position, so you start slinging mud and personal attacks.

You won't take time to look into SealMaxx technology, then give bad advice on the technology you use. Which makes me wonder if you understand it. At first, I thought you guys were simply just misinformed, but it's apparent that you're just not interested in becoming informed. "Don't confuse me with the facts, I've already made up my mind. I'm not familiar with it, so it's bad. If it's not the way I do it, it's wrong."... your position.

This guy was looking for a recommendation on wood sealant...and you both gave advice that's contrary to the mfr.s recommendations! I'm sure that your only response will be "SealMaxx is bad, my way is good"...or in John's case "sm is bad my way is good does anyone know how to puncutate"

Need I say more!

No Man, please dont say anthing more. John

I know that there's more than a bit of professional animosity here, but from the point of view of someone who has been a SealMaxx customer, the salient question is this:

If SealMaxx is indeed a revolutionary product that protects the wood treated by it in an unprecedented and prolonged fashion, why does the company not stand behind these claims, even for a single year?

What exactly is someone buying when he gets SealMaxx?

Jeffersonian,
I'm not sure what you mean when you say they don't stand behind the product for a single year? SealMaxx (in Iowa, see at www.sealmaxx.com) does stand behind the product.

I understood your original concern was the your local dealer was not meeting your expectations. The product reduces the absorbtion properties of wood, increases the density, increases the strength, and significantly reduces flammability. Since absorption is reduces, so is water related damage. That's the quick tour. Actually a little more to it, but that's the essence.

I'm not sure I've answered your questions, but will be happy to try again if you can give me some guidance.

Kevin

I've been to the site. I know what's there and, more importantly, was is not. Click on the "25 Year Gurantee" graphic and you get...a before/after picture of a deck. Not the verbiage of the 'guarantee', as one would reasonably expect, but a picture of a deck.

My warranty - printed by SealMaxx corporate, not the St. Louis franchise - states that only performance guarantees that had been *previously* represented in writing will be honored by SealMaxx. Naturally, I have no performace guarantee in writing from Tom Logger, the salesman. My warranty, therefore, covers precisely nothing.

Not that I'm missing out on something spectacular, mind you. The warranty states that even if something is actually covered, the extent of the risk exposure to SealMaxx is re-application of the product. In other words, if SMSTL sprayed distilled water on my deck, when it collapses into a pile of dessicated splinters two years from now, they'll be delighted to come spray distilled water on my new deck. Fool me once, shame on you...

I appreciate your concern, Kevin. I truly do. But I see the way SealMaxx operates in St. Louis and can't help but think that they have sculpted their business model to stay just this side of being legally actionable. In the finally tally, it's my fault for not cancelling the contract when SealMaxx failed to produce a copy of its warranty, despite several attempts by me to acquire it. That doesn't make the company one iota less sleazy, however, a point I intend to drive home for anyone who will listen.

Jeff,
I'm sorry for your bad experience. I would ask you to consider this...my company cleans up bad decks 5-6 days of every week of the year...weather permitting. Keep in mind that nobody here had heard of SealMaxx until we started seling it. What that means is that those decks were all done with conventional products....TWP, et al.

That doesn't mean those products are bad...only that the companies that performed the work did a bad job. I don't think you can list all contractors using those products as being unscrupulous, but the ones that did these jobs did bad work. The contractor is responsible for the failure, not the product. Other contractors that use the same products may, or may not be competent...but should be evaluated before you let them do the work.

I don't blame you for wanting your pound of flesh, just make sure you go after the right guy!

It sounds like your issue is with the local contractor. I would encourage you to call the president of SealMaxx in Iowa to see if you can enlist his assistance...the call is free.
Kevin

So what kind of clean up do you do with twp et al projects you and your company? Sounds like your pretty big time Kev,too busy to respond to all the warrenty and product questions rising to the top over here. John

This is not directed at anyone in particular. I do 10-15 deck projects per month from simple 400 sf ground level decks to 2500 sf monsters 20 feet off the ground. Most of my work is following the shoddy work of companies that I more aptly call "vandals". [For example] pressure washing with improper use of detergents and high pressure. If someone has a found a less abrasive way to strip a deck than sodium hydroxide, 500 psi and minimize damage as well as pH balance the deck for accepting an oil based penetrating sealer, I am open to hear it.

Kevin, all the previous crap and gung ho, rah-rah aside, doesn't any of what people have written about SealMaxx concern you? They are batting zero so far. Both people are unsatisfied and one of them is telling you that their deck looks horrible after a year. It doesn't sound like SealMaxx is going to stand behind their "guarantee". You say you are a busy professional. You are not worried about your reputation by distributing this product?

Something is fishy. You accuse me of not listening to you, not reading the info, not understanding (which you do nothing to counteract except attack) I have yet to read one bit of science from you other than you don't really know WHAT is in the product you tout as the be-all-end-all in wood sealing. It seems a little short sighted that you are hearing real world negative experience and still choose to buy into corporate rhetoric.

Everything I have read from you, Kevin seems evasive and anecdotal. I will say what's on my mind. That may displease your ego, but that is not my issue nor concern. I am trying to propel the industry forward and change the public perception of contractors.

John & Ken,
I'm not sure what it's going to take to get the message through! So...let's try it again. There have been 2 postings on this forum regarding work by a SealMaxx dealer. Would you agree with that?

I've seen one posting from an individual that was interested in SealMaxx, she had questions. Would you agree with that?

I'm very sympathetic towards the to postings describing their dissatisfaction...but I didn't do the work, I can only offer advice. I'm not in their area, can't fix their problem. Would you agree with that?

In my last posting, I offered advice to Jeffersonian...including contacting the pres. of SealMaxx. Would you agree with that?

I pointed out that their complaint was not with SealMaxx, or with all SealMaxx dealers, but the one in St. Louis. Would you agree with that?

I pointed out that a bad job by one deck contractor doesn't mean all deck contractors are bad, or that the products they use are bad...just that the job done by that contractor was bad. Would you agree with that?

John responded by stating that I didn't take care of my customers or support my warranty. Would you agree with that?

John has no foundation for this claim. There have been no complaints from any of my customers regarding my service or the products I've used. Would you agree with that?

John has stated that I'm "too busy to respond to all the warrenty and product questions rising to the top over here".
Would you agree with that?

All of the "warrenty and product questions" have come from 2 individuals on this forum, both in one city...St. Louis. Since I'm not in that city and these are not my customers, John's response was intentionally phrased to create the false impression that I was not responding to warranty/service problems. Would you agree with that?

Ken states that I'm being evasive and anecdotal. I'm not evading anything, and I've been completely candid. The facts are that there are 2 unhappy customers in St. Louis. I'm not trying to minimize their complaint...they both have valid complaints and I'll do anything I can to help them. Would you agree with that?

Now, Ken...you accuse me of not showing any info, being anecdotal, evasive, anecdotal. Then, YOU post false information! I never said I was a "busy professional"...those are your words. Would you agree with that?

I have checked the product out, extensively.

Your words, "I have yet to read one bit of science from you other than you don't really know WHAT is in the product you tout as the be-all-end-all in wood sealing." You described the product as being a coating that gives a "plastic appearance". You stated that you've seen a job that was either done with this product..."or one just like it". Would you agree with that?

But you've never seen it, never used it...and have no idea how it works. You wrongly stated you'd seen a product just like in order to create the impression it was inferior. You don't have any idea of how it works, or what the sealed surface looks like after the process is completed...but you said you did! Would you agree with that?

From what I've seen, neither of these customers has made a warranty claim. Both you and John state that there is no warranty support, but a warranty claim has not been made and you don't know if the warranty is supported or not. However, you intentionally stated that there was no warranty support, when a warranty claim has not been made, to create the false impression of no warranty service. Would you agree with that?

Again, I'm truly sorry for their problems...but it's with their local dealer! They should contact SealMaxx, speak with the president.

Ken, if 2 unhappy customers means "batting zero", then you need to change jobs! I can literally take you to 2 unhappy customers of deck contractors using the same products and processes as yours...every day.

Ken, you're asking for real science and I've seen you describe some of the products you use on this forum. Please describe in complete detail what is in TWP, the citric cleaners you describe, the acid cleaners, and the KOH cleaners...completely, in detail. Leave no ingredient out. EVERY INGREDIENT. Can you produce some "real science" please?

As I said earlier folks, grab the popcorn...it appears the show is going to go on for a while!

Ken, you said "the product you tout as the be-all-end-all in wood sealing". But I never said that. By implying that I said that, you've wrongly created the impression that I've made claims about the product that I have not made. Would you agree with that?

Ken, you said "It seems a little short sighted that you are hearing real world negative experience and still choose to buy into corporate rhetoric." But "the real world, negative experience" you're describing is from 2 customers in St. Louis. If I'm doing as many decks each week as I claim (I'll allow that you have no proof of that other than my claim, therefore you could characterize this claim as anecdotal) then if those were my customers...which they aren't...they would represent 1% of my annual projects. Would you agree with that?

1% (although anecdotal) does not represent "real world negative experience". These 2 complaints represent the bad work of one dealer, in one city. The "real world" is that these 2 customers represent a very small percentage of all jobs done with this product...2. Would you agree with that?

As professionals in the same industry (although with apparent differences in standards and methodology), it is our responsibility to try to help these 2 unhappy customers. Would you agree with that?

Ken, you state "Something is fishy." I agree...it's very fishy that you and John continue to misrepresent the facts posted on these forums, misrepresent my comments that are posted on this forum, exaggerate the number of complaints that have been posted on this forum, misrepresent your knowledge of this product. Yes, something is fishy...which means we do agree on one thing.

From your post, you have said...

"Then, YOU post false information! I never said I was a "busy professional"...those are your words"

but my wording is supported by other quotes taken directly from you..

1) "As professionals in the same industry (although with apparent differences in standards and methodology), it is our responsibility to try to help these 2 unhappy customers."

2) "I would ask you to consider this...my company cleans up bad decks 5-6 days of every week of the year..."

This will positively be my last post regarding you or SealMaxx. Everyone has your number. I am sorry I let you get this far. Every word I have typed asking you to respond maturely and professionally has been a waste of energy and time I will never recoup. Best of luck whomever you are, I wish you no ill will.

Im out of here too ken,this guy is a jail house lawyer. John

Hard to dispute the facts...easier take one last cheap shot.

For the 4th of July: Although I don't agree with all of the discussions and professional mudslinging I do agree with this type forum and this great nation's ability to voice their dissent. It's only a deck and a quick question requesting the opinion of a seasoned, experienced, professional deck builder. To know that I have the ability to choose the method and product of my choice and to have several individuals gladly disagree in a public forum without fear of reprisal.....makes me thank all of the folks that have sacrificed their time and in many cases their lives to give me this freedom. Happy Independence Day!!

bump

Since this post has been bumped I will update. I have spoken with Kevin via telephone. He is a knowlegable guy and seems to know his product.

With that being said, I am still of the obstinate old school (as are many wood resto professionals I know) that teaches, if you cannot strip it off with conventional methods, its not a good idea to use it. My opinion still stands as highly skeptical.

Let's bump and see if there are any changes in products/procedures.

I'm curious too. El bumpo!!

I am currently shopping for treatment for my 3 yr old cedar deck & rail(2500 sq ft). I have talked to Sealmaxx here in Kansas City. What I can't understand is what is the deal with removing a deck treatment? Am I missing something? I don't plan on changing the color and prefer the natural aged graying. Should I be concerned about removing a treatment in the future? Entertaining posting fellas.

Man,dont start this all over again. If you want your project to go gray/silver just leave it alone ghesssssss

J.

For future readers considering TWP 116 (or it's low VOC cousing TWP 516)....

Be forewarned.... TWP116 and TWP516 (both named rustic oak) really look like redwood... not oak. Definitely red.

Unfortunately I wanted brown. Now I have 2 unused 5 gallon containers of TWP 116 (I'm in the Chicago suburbs).

Anyone interested in buying it from me (click on my user name in this post and then click "send me an email").

If I could do it over on my Ipe deck, I'd use TWP 120 Pecan.

Jim