skip to main content

Cracks in plaster and now unlevel water line

14 years ago

I thought the cracks in the plaster were all I needed to worry about, but I just noticed that the water line on one side of the pool is about 4 inches higher than on the other side. The pool is less than 2 years old and I'm really worried. Is this fixable? Any recommendations on what I should ask the PB to do when I call tomorrow? Any thoughts greatly appreciated

Featured Answer

nypoolnovice

14 years ago

Susan, I'm an engineer, not a PB. Here is my point of view...

It looks from your pictures on the other thread like the pool was either partially or fully drained. With the pool drained, a high groundwater condition can cause the pool to become buoyant, and actually float. It would likely float unevenly, generally the deep end would rise higher because it has a higher volume of air and therefore a lower density. There are other factors that can influence this, like if the pool was fully or partially drained, and the surrounding soil stratification (different layers of earth have varying permeability, and respond differently to groundwater saturation) Can you post a picture? My guess is that this is what happened to you.

So, who drained the pool. Was it the plaster company? There are precautions that should be taken to minimize the possibility of buoyancy. For example, opening hydrostatic drains.

Someone is liable here. Hopefully it wasn't you that drained the pool. And if it was the PB, this is one time that you may be glad that they are a big chain, because they might have decent liability insurance.

Their insurance should cover it, because it wasn't bad workmanship, it was negligence. Workmanship would be excluded from their liability policy. But negligence, by failing to open the hydrostatic drain, is the issue.

Assuming that this is what happened of course. Post some pics of the general area, and show what happened to the decking.

John

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (29)

lmhall2000
14 years ago
susan!

I am so sorry! Where do you live? The only thing I can think of is that your pool is popping!! You need to start documenting every phone call/letter/conversation you have with everyone regarding this, call another pool company immediately and have them give you their assessment, bring those concerns to your PB...I would be close to demanding that he come immediately. keep us updated! Many areas have had outrageous amounts of water this season, 2 years ago we had a severe drought in our area...thinking if your pool was built during the drought and now has been flooded again and again, that could have an impact...just guessing.
Tara
just-a-pb
14 years ago
FOUR INCHES, OMG.
Sounds like you will be getting a new pool.
There are ways to jack a pool, but they are expensive and no guarantees if the structure of the pool can handle it, not to mention the plumbing factor.
Start getting your ducks in a row. Get profesional statements, probably call your Insurance company as well and get their opinion.

Reno, I guess you called this one.
Related Discussions
Plaster cracks. Leave them, fix them or sheet rock walls?
Q
Comments (42)
Basically, a 'mud job' is just putting a thin veneer of compound over wallboard..it can also be called a 'skim coat'. It is basically joint compound, rarely it is plaster. Yes the guy has referrals, but what were the projects? Were they sensitive work on old houses to yield something which is like what might have been the original appearance, or were they gut jobs and remodels with no respect for the original house? From what you've said of him, I suspect the latter. Ripping out and replacing work with newer materials often yields an inferior result and costs more money than a decent job--he is pushing for the fastest methods to do the work, like someone who is primarily a 'flipper' of houses, not a true professional. Despite your saying he isn't profiting somewhere with his subcontractors or materials, I don't believe it for a second...he is going to make money somewhere, otherwise he wouldn't be doing the job. Based on the information provided as to his recommendations for the work to be done, he IS suggesting things which aren't needed. With a baby on the way, and new home owners, he is seeing a prime opportunity to make some fast money. Did you get estimates from other contractors and painters? That is an absolute MUST for any project. I know I'm sounding negative to you, but it is just common sense--I used to be a trusting person, but being burned one time too many changed that--and since a house is your biggest investment, you don't want to take ANY chances with such a big ticket expense. With a new addition to the family coming, you absolutely MUST save where you can, unless you have deep pockets, which you say you don't. Just a queston of curiosity: who put the idea in your head that the walls lead paint was a danger which had to be addressed by a complete removal? Paint chips are eliminated with vacuuming, unless you let them accumulate for weeks...and painted trim is going to be more likely to give them especially at corners...but again, the solution is to make sure the paint is sound and has a firmly adhered new layer.
...See More
New Plaster: Cracks and Discoloration
Q
Comments (3)
Plain plaster? What brand? Have you been brushing? Do you have a salt cell? I prefer to see CYA at around 70 with a cell. New plaster takes a few weeks before it's ready for CYA though this isn't what is causing the cracks to appear. However, when it comes time to start slowly introducing your pool to chlorine, it will make it harder to get the FC level to where it will be effective. I typically introduce a freshly plastered pool to chlorine by using tablets. They would slowly add CYA as they erode. Lowering the pH and brushing may or may not remove the visible cracks. These are typically caused by shrinkage. The shrinkage may be caused by being exposed to the air and wind while waiting for the water to rise or from a batch of plaster with too much water in it, the latter being less likely but still possible. There two types of chlorine you may add now with the CYA this high, liquid or lithium hypochlorite powder. Liquid comes either in 10-12% from a pool store or 6% Clorox or it's equivalent It must be unscented. Wal Mart has Great Value and is sometimes less money. Some super markets may carry a store brand. If it's labled 6%, it's fine too. Lithium powder is quite expensive, more so than bleach. Use the Pool Calculator to determine how much to add. Algae treats phosphates like Miracle Grow. Start adding bleach to get to 3% of the CYA level for a week, then up it to 7 % the following week and 10% after that. If you have a salt cell, after the plaster is a month old, dial in the cell so it will produce enough to hold your FC at 6% of the CYA level. Removing phosphates is not normally needed but you do need to be aware and keep the FC levels up CYA doesn't leave except by dilution. At some point, some water will need to be removed and replaced. Your plaster is still too green to do this yet. Wait till it's six weeks or older. This is normally the last thing added, not the first. Who ever added it screwed up. Keeping the chlorine level up will kill algae before it has a chance to feed on the phosphates. Scott
...See More
Plaster of Paris in sheetrock crack
Q
Comments (6)
If you are renovating a home and need to hang sheetrock, you can expect to pay at least nine dollars per sheet to have someone else hang the sheetrock. If your room is large, that nine dollars a sheet can really add up. Luckily, it is simple to hang sheetrock, so you can do this job yourself. First, decide what type of sheetrock you want to hang. There are several thicknesses of sheetrock. If you are hanging it on the ceiling, you may want to choose the thinnest sheetrock you can find, since it can get very heavy when you are lifting it over your head. If you are planning to play drums in the renovated room, you should choose a sheetrock that has soundproofing properties. Next, make sure that you are completely finished with insulation, plumbing, and wiring renovations so that you will not need to tear down your sheetrock right after you hang it. Check to make sure everything is in working order and that any building inspections are completed. If you sheetrock over a wall before the inspector has seen it, he will require you to take it back down so that he can make sure that everything behind the sheetrock is finished correctly. After you are sure you are ready to hang your sheetrock, you will need to check to see where the sheet falls in relation to the studs in the wall. You should never hang sheetrock so that it covers the end stud completely, since you will need part of that stud to hang the next sheet of sheetrock. If you need to cut a few inches off the sheetrock, it is easiest to use a special sheetrock knife. It is not an expensive tool and well worth the expense if you plan to hang sheetrock in several rooms. If you dont have this tool, you can use a utility knife to cut through the outer skin of the sheetrock on both sides and then use a metal ruler or an extra board with a straight edge to help you evenly break off the inner part of the sheetrock. Traditionally, sheetrock is hung so that the eight foot side is vertical and the four foot side is horizontal. Lean your sheetrock into place and use drywall screws to fasten it to the wall studs. Every screw hole is a hole that you will need to patch later, so donÂt overdo it. You should not place the screws any closer than one foot apart. Make sure you sink the holes a bit below the top surface of the sheetrock so that there will not be any lumps in your walls. Once you hang your sheetrock on the walls, you will need to find a helper to install the ceiling sheetrock. If you cannot find anyone to help you, you can make a helper, called a dead man, from a two by four that is as high as the room that has another two by four screwed into the top of it to form a t shape. The dead man will hold one end of the sheetrock up while you screw in the other end. Finally, it is time to finish your sheetrock. You will need joint compound, drywall tape, metal corners and caulk. Tape all seams between two sections of sheetrock. If you have outside edges, you will need to install metal corners. Cover the drywall tape with a smooth even coat of joint compound. You will probably need to sand and reapply joint compound after the first coat dries. Some people use joint compound to cover screw holes as well, but it is easier and quicker to caulk the holes. Now, you are ready to prime and paint your walls.
...See More
Cracks in Plaster Ceiling
Q
Comments (5)
"In order to repair the cracks permanently, you are going to have to ensure that the plaster is solidly attached to the lath behind it (if not, the crack just comes back)." Most plaster cracks are NOT caused by separation from the lath, but by movement of the structure over the years from settling. Unlike drywall, plaster has zero 'give.' If anything moves more than a fraction of an inch the plaster WILL crack. Some cracks are 'seasonal,' caused by the expansion and contraction of a wooden structure. They often open during the winter as the framing dries out and shrinks, then close for the summer when the humidity is higher and the wood expands. The first thing to check is if you do have separation from the lath. If you push on the plaster on each side of the crack and any give is felt you may have separation from the lath, or the lath itself may have pulled loose from the framing. While there are methods of attaching the plaster back to the lath, it also needs to be pulled back into plane. Simply filling the gap with glue is not going to fix the sag. Plaster washers are the time tested method of securing plaster back to the lath and pulling it back flat at the same time. They are then buried in a thin skim coat. If there is no movement you should try and repair the crack. If it returns you can try and determine why and make other repairs. I use Durabond and mesh tape. The mesh tape spans the crack but allows the Durabond to be forced through to fill the crack up. Make sure you can dio a smooth job, since Durabond is as hard as old plaster and cannot be sanded very much, if at all. Most of the old plaster was actual lime-plaster. A mix of lime putty and gauging plaster. The lime putty has a very long hardening time (think months to cure) but is very hard. Gauging plaster has a very short set time. The mixture has a moderate time without adding any further retarders to extend the set.
...See More
susan1404
Original Author
14 years ago
I live in the DFW area and we have had huge amounts of rain and flooding, so I'm sure that has had an impact. We will call the PB this morning as soon as they open - like I said before, one of the big chains who have caused me countless sleepless nights and tears even before this problem. I'll start documenting everything and let you all know. Thank you everyone for your comments and assurance that this isn't acceptable, which is what I'm guessing I'm going to be told by the PB!
susan1404
Original Author
14 years ago
As predicted - the PB said the 4 inch difference and cracked 19 month old pool was perfectly accepatable, and unless the pool is leaking, cosmetic. They could move the tile to make the water level look even again, but we would be responsible for the cost
lmhall2000
14 years ago
Unbelievable! You need to contact a competent pool builder and ask them to come check it out, offer a fee for the trip out...it'll be worth it to have the opinion of someone who has nothing to lose/gain by telling you the truth.

Tara
mixman1
14 years ago
Sorry if I missed it in an earlier post, but who was the pool builder?
susan1404
Original Author
14 years ago
John - thank you for your input. The pool was fully drained by the plasterer, and has actually risen more at the tanning ledge than at the deep middle/end. I've posted some photos of the difference in water line and also of a mystery object the plasterer left behind. Is this anything to do with the hydrostatic drain, and should it have been put back in the pool?!! The deck has been raising up and coming away from the pool for some time, esp. at the tanning ledge - we assumed it was because of the wet weather. Again, the PB wouldn't help and the sub who poured the deck won't return calls. It might be worth mentioning that our lot has a very significant slope, which again may have contributed.

Mystery object

Gap between coping and deck

Bigger picture of pool and slope - v. embarrassed about the water but it had just been refilled!

Water level at highest point

Water level at lowest point (tanning shelf)
cascade
14 years ago
The mystery object is a test plug, it was probably in a pipe for plaster day to prevent water seepage. It does not belong in your pool when running.

What if anything is happening with your decks? Are they cracking? What were the soil conditions the pool was built in? I suspect the pool is sinking rather than popping, based on your comments about the deck rising relative to the coping. If the deck was moving I would expect to see significant cracking.

Regardless, you should contact your insurance company.
Rack Etear
14 years ago
I thought sinking as well, but typically things built on a hill sink on down hill side, not on the uphill side.
nypoolnovice
14 years ago
Susan, the pics are good. One viable theory is that the pool became buoyant when it was drained. The wall and waterfall provided ballast on the left side (looking at the pic above) and the pool rotated along it longitudinal axis. Sort of like a canoe listing to one side when more weight is applied to that side.

I greatly respect the opinion of the PB's here, but in my opinion, there is no reason for the pool to sink after almost 2 years, and the draining and wet ground are hard to ignore as contributing factors.

Get an engineer. I know that PB's have far greater practical knowledge, but when the insurance companies and lawyers get involved, they will demand the credibility of PE.

I think if an an engineer said that the pool rotated because of the negligence of the plaster company, your homeowners should cover it. Then your homeowners will pay you, and they would chase the plaster company.

I also think you should consult with an engineer before you call your homeowners to make the claim. Homeowners will send an adjuster out immediately, and if you have an engineer's opinion, the adjuster will be MUCH less likely to blame it on bad pool construction, which would not be covered.
susan1404
Original Author
14 years ago
Thanks again! The PB general manager is coming out next week to take a look, so I should probably get an engineer out first. That way I'll be better prepared to argue with any of his BS. I know this may be a really stupid question, but what kind of engineer should I look for, and any suggestions about where to look? I really appreciate your help!
cascade
14 years ago
hmmm, if that pool popped, how much lower was the deck than the coping before? It's pretty obvious the coping is lower now. And unless the whole property slopes quite significantly I personally don't think the little hill behind the pool would dictate how the pool may sink. I've seen and repaired many out of level pools over the years, and almost every one has been from one end of the pool sinking rather than hydrostatic pressure lifting the pool.

Got any pictures from when the pool was new? From shortly before it was drained for the plaster repair? No offense intended, but is it possible that the out of level condition existed before the pool was drained?

Pool sinking can be caused by poor soil conditions or pools that were over-excavated and filled back in with poor materials. In my experience, pools that settle more in the shallow end are often due to poor soil conditions, meaning that the excavation reached hard-pan in the deep and but maybe not in the shallow end while pools that settle more in the deep end may have been over excavated and filled in with native soil rather than structural materials. These rules of thumb obviously can't apply to every case, but I've found them to be true quite often.

If this was my pool I'd be getting it surveyed so any change in the elevations can be documented
nypoolnovice
14 years ago
This is a really interesting thread, at Susan's expense, unfortunately.

I agree with Cascade that it's important to know if the pool was level prior to the plaster repair. I had assumed that this was the case.

If it was level prior to the repair, I think that floating is the only explanation. It's not likely that a pool would settle suddenly after 19 mos, especially after being drained.

But if it was uneven before it was drained, then that's a different story.

Susan, you want a civil engineer with pool experience.

John
cascade
14 years ago
Just looked in the other thread. When was the picture in that thread with the pool full of water taken?

As far as an engineer, I don't know how things are done where you live but here all permit documents and inspection reports are supposed to be left on site. A wise homeowner will put these safely away when the project is complete. If you have access to these materials you may be able to determine the engineer of record when the pool was built. This information may be available to you through the permits office at your city hall, or you may want to ask your PB to bring all his documentation with him to your meeting.
susan1404
Original Author
14 years ago
I really can't say for sure that the pool suddenly went out of line - To be honest I haven't been out there for months, and as the pool is higher than the house, I can't see the water line from any of the downstairs windows. I only went out that day to look at the plaster finish, and that's when I noticed the water line. We do have a pool guy who comes every 2 weeks and he says he doesn't think it was out of line before, but he can't be sure. If it confirms, or makes a difference to anyone's opinion, I got charged a huge amount of extra money on excavation day when they hit rock, which would have been in the deep part. It might also be worth mentioning that they over excavated the tanning ledge and steps, making them too small. I pointed it out and they rebared(?) over it anyway. When the gunite was being poured I made them stop and had the PB come out as the tanning deck was going to be way too small. The PB told them to pour the gunite to make the tanning ledge the right size even though that would mean no dirt or rebar under the steps. Here are probably more photos than anyone asked for, but anyway... I've tried to show the slope in some, and these were all taken when the pool was new. Unfortunately I don't have any showing the pool just before it was drained
cascade
14 years ago
Looking at those pictures I'm sticking to my story. Sorry for your troubles.
puzzled
14 years ago
"...We do have a pool guy who comes every 2 weeks and he says he doesn't think it was out of line before, but he can't be sure..."

If this yo-yo can not notice/spot a 4" unevenness in the water level; i would keep as far as i can from servicing my pool or for that matter any pool!
puzzled
14 years ago
"...We do have a pool guy who comes every 2 weeks and he says he doesn't think it was out of line before, but he can't be sure..."

If this yo-yo can not notice/spot a 4" unevenness in the water level; i would keep him as far as i can from servicing my pool... or for that matter any pool!
zklown
14 years ago
Susan-Our pool is only 7 months old and has rsin 1 1/8 of an inch. We are in the San Antonio area....I'm wondering if we have the same pool builder? Ours is really dragging there feet....
tresw
14 years ago
Susan, if/ when you get a civil engineer out there they can set you up with monitoring. They can check elevations of your pool and decking and then come out every few months and check it again to see if it has moved. You might consider doing that so you know if this was a one-time event or a continuing problem.

In your 3rd photo, that white chalky residue on your stone is efflorescence. Have you tried cleaning it off? If so, does it keep coming back? The reason I ask is that it is an indication that moisture is coming through the wall. The moisture carries salts in the mortar to the surface and leaves behind the residue. You can acid wash it off, sometimes it's a one time deal (especially if an admixture was used in the mortar when it was installed) and it never comes back.
susan1404
Original Author
14 years ago
Tresw - I didn't know what that white stuff was, so thanks for giving it a name. I noticed it a little while ago but I hadn't tried to clean it off yet with anything other than the pool brush, and it didn't move it.
A very important development is that the pool has lost about 2 inches of water since I posted the photos last week, and the DFW General Manager is finally coming out on Monday to look at the pool. He is obviously very busy and important as today was the first time he has returned a phone call. Perhaps he's out in the field looking at other customers' leaking floated pools... Anyway, he's brnging the owner of the plaster company with him too. Hopefully they don't bring a bucket of gunite and a trowel or I'll use very bad language and set the dogs on them! I was going to get an engineer out first, but I figured I'd give the pool company chance to make this right before I spend vast amounts of money on engineers, attorneys, etc. However, if the pool company continues to treat me like an idiot, I'll blast them by name on every forum available to me, then start looking at other options.
cascade
14 years ago
Curious as to what has developed with this.....
susan1404
Original Author
14 years ago
Thanks for asking Cascade - unfortunately nothing has happened yet, except the pool seems to be settling back a little bit. We were told by the manager and the plasterer that it looked like they'd drained our pool and it floated. The manager told us they'd have to figure out what they were going to do and they'd call back. When we called him back he told us we were 10 days away from being put on the schedule to get the pool fixed, but he can't tell us how or what that will entail until he has someone come out to look. We were told to turn everything off and not to try to keep the water level up. It's been 14 days and we're still not on anyone's schedule. I think the tile guy is coming out on Thursday - something about making the pool appear more level. In the meantime the pool continues to leak and now the plaster is exposed on the tanning ledge.
dancingsams
14 years ago
Boy - sounds like my mess! Beware - the tile guy will just disguise the problem, not fix it. I know this because they did that to us. We still have leaks, but now the pool "looks" level.

Stick to your guns. Good luck!
brentr_gw
14 years ago
Sounds very messy. I wonder if your water table is high. Please keep us posted.....
txmomoftwo
14 years ago
Ugh! What a nightmare!
susan1404
Original Author
14 years ago
Quick update - the PB drained the pool and had the tile and coping crew come in and re-do tile and flagstone to make the pool level again. Another crew is coming in next week to prep the pool for new plaster. I don't think they are going to remove the old plaster though - does this seem right? Then new plaster hopefully by the end of the week and we'll see if the pool still leaks. I never did get an engineer or surveyor out. I hope that's not something I'll regret later....
cascade
14 years ago
Do yourself a big favour and get it surveyed, monitor the elevations so if in the future you have any more troubles you'll have some documentation.

Related Stories

CONCRETE Why Concrete Wants to Crack

By Matt Clawson

We look at the reasons concrete has a tendency to crack — and what you can do to help control it

SAVING WATER 6 Reasons Why You Should Save Your Rainwater Now

By Falon Mihalic

Collect and store during the rainy season so you’ll have water ready for irrigation when you need it

POOLS Plaster Tops Popularity List for Pool Finishes

By Katherine Caviness

Classic white or dyed to suit a mood, plaster is the most common and affordable finish for pools today

GARDENING AND LANDSCAPING Houzz Survey: See What Homeowners Are Doing With Their Landscapes Now

By Annie Thornton

Homeowners are busy putting in low-maintenance landscapes designed for outdoor living, according to the 2015 Houzz landscaping survey

EDIBLE GARDENS A Formerly Weedy Lot Now Brims With Edibles and Honeybees

By Mitchell Parker

Photographers transform their barren backyard into an oasis filled with fruit, vegetables, honey, eggs and more

BASEMENTS A Raw Washington Basement Gets Serenity Now

By Becky Harris

Neutral tones and custom storage infuse a family's newly finished basement with a restful air

LANDSCAPE DESIGN Energy Now: Designing a Garden That Gets You Going

By Jay Sifford Garden Design

Serenity has its place, but a garden that recharges and motivates you can be a beautiful thing

DECORATING GUIDES How to Love Your Kitchen More, Right Now

By Laura Gaskill

Make small changes to increase the joy in your kitchen while you cook and bake, without shelling out lots of dough

HOUZZ TOURS My Houzz: Sleek Lines and Innovations in Portland

By Whitney Lyons

Behind these airy, contemporary interiors lie high-tech systems that lower utility costs while keeping the family comfortable

EXTERIORS Where Front Yards Collide: Property Lines in Pictures

By Mitchell Parker

Some could be twins; others channel the Odd Couple. You may never look at property boundaries the same way again

Sponsored

More Discussions

where should top soil stop around coping of inground pool?

4

Weighing the pros and cons of adding a swimming pool.

19

New Pool - Liner Properly Installed?

1

Pool shape help

3

Pool Dec Color Dilemma

6