This isn't the 1st time I've heard of A&S using field fabricated sumps but if the sumps are only 1" deep, then they are not VGB compliant and can be and should be compelled to correct the deficiency. Each sump and drain cover must be able to handle the full load from it's pump.

Assuming the head loss isn't extraordinary and full rated pumps, I would estimate a pair at 100 GPM per pump. That's 200 GPM total for a 15 hour turn if the pool is 180K and not the 207,000K gallons and 17.5 hour turn estimate I came up with.

I am curious as to how the pool is getting chlorine.

A&S offices vary in how they get things done but it is common for nearly every to be subbed out. The A&S in my area has been changing some of the subs to reduce costs. Usually, they are pretty competent.

Ours use Pentair equipment usually. They did try Waterway a few years ago but that lasted only a year.

Scott

Pool is 60x80 depth from 4' to 6'.

And a good question Scott. I for got to mention no chlorination system installed. This is the reason I was called out in the first place. They will be on Liquid soon but I have to address the turnover issue first. The good news for me is that. They ran (2) 2 1/2" main drain lines and they ran (4) 2 1/2" lines for each skimmer. The bad news is that I only have (2) 2" return lines to work with.

My plan is the replace pumps with (1) 15 HP C-series pump and put in a bank of (8) TR140c's. But here I would still have to run and additional return line(s) back to the pool.

Scott as a back up to me check my math here. I still figure 180,000 gallons and I need at least 500 GPM turnover. I am thinking that I could run an indepentent 4" return line into the wall of the pool. Possibly splitting this line into (6) 1 1/2" returns into the wall of the pool. With out doing an extreme replumb replacing all return plumbing. This is the best I have come up with.

Also I will be Chiiping out all sumps to reinstall all 18x18 Aquastar covers and the sumps will be redone as well.

I had figured an 8' depth one one end. If the owner has Start Stands like a regular competition pool, it should be that deep otherwise it's out of normal specs and potentially dangerous. Inexperienced swimmers tend to perform racing dives that are too deep. I expect the owner will be teaching and training others.

The new drain lines will need to feed a 6" suction line to keep the velocity under 7 FPS and minimize head loss on the suction side.

I think the return side would benefit from a 6" discharge, tap in the 2 existing 2" lines, then bell down to the 4" to feed the six 1.5" lines. Keeping return flow velocities low is important with a competition pool.

If you're going to chlorinate with liquid, you'll need an acid tank and sensors too. I'm sure you knew that. :-) I hope the equipment is in a well vented shelter.

A 10 HP pump will give you the desired flow assuming the head loss is under 75 feet or so. An SVRS system and an emergency shut off are strongly suggested since this is going to be using commercial grade gear and using commercial grade specs. If the pool is being used for commercial purposes, it's a must.

I am surprised the pool doesn't have a gutter system.

Was a timing system put in?

Scott

PS-Your profile seems broken. I was going to send you and email but cant.

First, if this is a residential pool, why size it for a commercial turnover. Unless the bather load is extremely high, you don't need 4X turns a day.

1 turnover a day is typical for a residential pool which is 125gpm. Now I woudln't run a large pool at that low of flow rates, but I'd probably size it for a 12 hour turnover At 250-300GPM.

There is no reason to have a 6 hour turnover in a residential pool unless it has an extreme bather load.

Now, as far as the sumps go, 1" is fine with some grates DS-360, and Paramount SDX for instance are tested and listed for no sump at all.

If you stay under 400 gpm, you could use 12X12 aquastars and a 3" deep sump.

I agree with Racket and don't understand why you would not keep the existing filtration in place and add to it.

From my experience 15hp pump will not be able to properly backwash 8 tr140c3's unless you set it up to do 4-5 at a time. I havn't done the math but you would need at least an 8inch manifold and 10 would be better. Very few commercial pools in our area use a one pump system anymore because of cost and downtime during repairs if the pump fails. Whether or not you have 3 phase power is also a consideration. Anytime we would put in a 10 hp pump or larger we built a pit so a flooded suction pump with an open face impeller could be used and and run at 1750rpms to keep power consumption down. Its been a while since we did a job like this and they may have energy effecient self priming 15hp pumps available now.

IMO adding on to what is there now would be far less costly and provide many more benefits than a huge conversion to a 1 pump system.

Okay lets get away from this not being commercial.

This pool is concidered commercial. This will be a private for hire training facility for futre olympians. Even though it is in his backyard. That being said there will need to be alot of modifications for proper turn over here. I need at least a 500 GPM turnover. This being said I could get away with a 10 HP C-series which with 60 feet DYNAMIC HEAD will allow for 500 GPM. And the filtration of (6) TR140C maximum rating of 109 GPM capable for a total of 654 GPM I think this is the best option. I do realize that The manifold for these filters will have to be 8" yes. But this is the only way I can acheive proper flow and turnover. I do realize I could do all of this with a dual pump system but no mater what happens the current pumps cannot sustain this pool. I will concider this the dual pump set up though thanks.

The were (2) intermatic time clocks installed and initially they told himm he only had to run the sysem 6 hours a day. What a laugh.
After looking at the drain cover set up on the main drains I agree with you on the 12x12's this will suffice. And I still will have to have the piping in the sump changed to being 1 1/2" the pipe size in depth minimal.

This pool was never set up for any form of sanitation. I called and asked the "Saleman for A&S" and he said they could just use floaters. Biggest laugh I have had in a while. The controllers that I put on are Aquasol with diaphram pumps for but the Bleach and acid. All of my controllers are on wireless for off-site monitoring of PH and ORP.

Thanks for all the back up guys,

David

David, If you plan on backwashing all the filters at once I don't think you have the flow for 6 filters with that pump. We have always considered 15gpm per sq ft as a bare minimum and prefered 20 which roughly translates to 2.5 hp per filter. Why wouldn't you use the tr140c3 in this application?

In my opinion, the best thing about A&S is the number of renovation jobs they provide which you should be smiling about.

ROFLMAO

Scott

David, If you wanted for that pool to meet commercial specs per NSF reccomendations you will need a minimum of 10 skimmers w/equalizers on a 6inch line. Our state would require 12. Even if you used the 80% of design flow rate rule and used the Waterway 75gpm skimmers you would need 6. You would also need a minimum of 19 inlets on a 6 inch line. I have no idea what the specs in your state are but generally states meet or exceed NSF reccomendations.

What if the skimmers were simply given a smaller pump, on their own, just for skimming while the main circulation and sanitation system ran off the drains?

The modification to add all those skimmers would open the potential for changing from a skimmer base to gutter system. Both would be a major cost issue, even more than what is being bantered about.

I don't know if my idea would be allowed but it's not an unreasonable idea, IMHO and worth checking into

Scott.

Most of the filtration systems in commercial pools work off an 80/20 system, the 80 being the skimmer, or gutter weir and the 20 being the main drain, as most of the yucky stuff floats.

Btw I hate diaphragm pumps stenner peristaltic(s) are the way to go imo.

I'd also look at the EQ series pump from Pentair. Its much more efficient than the C series, cheaper, and lighter.

Racket gets it. If the yucky stuff doesn't float to begin with, after its oxidized it floats which is why the NSF wants the skimmers to be able to handle 80% of the design flow rate. In really old pools the "scum" gutters went into the sewer and didn't pass through the filters.

Converting to a gutter system would require a surge tank of some sort that would need to equal the displacement of the potential bather load similar but not the same as a vanishing edge catch basin.

Trying to convert this pool to commercial specs will be cost prohibitive unless the owner has really deep pockets.

Assuming you have 4 skimmers with a max flow rate of 60gpm (which is pushing it)you could hook up the two existing pump filter combos and get 240 gpms. You could add another pump filter combo to the existing drains and get another 120 gpms. This won't meet any commercial specs and you will still have to core drill some more inlets but your increasing flow where you need it and getting a 8.33 hour turnover rate.

Sorry but I assumed the 2hps were full rated NSF approved pumps when they are probably uprates which brings down the flow rate. If you didn't want to change motors you would use one of the existing combos on the drains and the new combo on the skimmer lines in tandem with an existing combo and be achieving about a 9.375 turnover.

As a notation to this discussion. Whenever we have used the multiple smaller pumps in commercial situations they have never performed as well as the published curves. We have hooked up vacuum gauges with pressure gauges and done the math to determine the real tdh and invariably end up filing down the weight in the flow meter for the system to give the right reading. So IMO don't count on the manufactures published pump curves if you want to know the real level of performance of a system.

What a shame for the homeowner.

I've been really busy and haven't been able to visit the forum due to sheer exhaustion after putting 15 plus 14 hr plus days in a row.
My kids are out loading bikes and four wheelers into the big trailer for our offroad riding campout and I had to reply to this topic.

David, I think the TR 140 C3"s are an overkill and won't backwash well.
My suggestion would be 3- 60 or 72 sq/ft De filters on 3- 2 hp full rated pumps, and add an additional return line back to the pool.

This will be very much like what I run on my pool.
There's no reason they can't hit a full turn daily on a 10 hour filter pump schedule, and a turn and a half on a 15 hour run.
Like Racket said, you don't need 3 turns daily because it's not a public application and the swimmer load will not be much when compared to the amount of water holding a solid FC level.

I got to go the kids are screaming at me to get off and help.

IMO, this isn't really that big of a deal, except the lack of planning by the pool builder.

See ya, Kelly

LOL

Hi all
I had to chime in as my pool was supposed to be for private swim lessons. We assumed incorrectly that w/ 1 student at a time all we needed was a simple pool. Here in CT, though, there are many rules and regs and I found to my dismay that the state requires public pool standards regardless of the number of swimmers. In CT if you have even 1 student you are required to have a pool built to public pool standards. If start dives are to be taught then you need to be sure your diving well is built to NCAA standards! To satisfy the state of CT I would have needed blueprints of the pool to prove that it met public pool standards and those blueprints alone were priced out at $5000. That on top of the required bathrooms, changing rooms, minimum deck space, sanitation and filtration system for proper turnover rate, monthly health inspections etc proved too much for us both financially and mentally... I guess it depends on where this former Olympian lives but if it's here in CT there are MANY hoops to jump through. We won't even mention the neighbors; mine went ballistic when they heard of my plans to teach private lessons; took their displeasure to the town and state which is where I learned about the hoops needed to jump through...
Joanne

Thanks guys for all the back up on this. I have been working with Katy Moore the one who wrote the Texas commercial guidelines and yes this is commercial app. So I am working with her and the owner for the resolution.

In addition the builder is being investigated by the state now. meaning posible fines and/or criminal charges being filed. You would have to see to understand where I am coming from but this pool is a nightmare. I even told the owner it might be better to dig it up and start over.

I'll keep you guys posted as this plays out.

Thanks again,

David