p.s. does anyone know if a toilet that's more powerful (are these called high-efficency, by the way?) has to be a whole lot louder, necessarily? Or might it be that anything modern will be a huge improvement upon an old, barely working toilet from the '60's or '70's and I can avoid one of the extra powerful models?

I just want one that'll work well - though saving water for environmental reasons would be wonderful (however not so wonderful that I'd put the environment before flushing properly)! Anything else to consider? Are there some toilets that clean the bowl automatically I think I've read, so we don't have to as often? Or something like that?

Thanks again!

The DWV system must be "right" or nothing about any toilet will work properly. No alternatives or substitutes. Get a good, trustworthy plumber to evaluate your situation in person. You do the work of finding that plumber, that plumber evaluates the system. Good luck.

Cast iron with caulked (oakum and lead) joints was standard for larger (3 inches and up) DWV line in 1913.

Lead DWV was still in use for smaller lines.

Find a pipe and see if a magnet sticks, and then note its surface.
Cast iron should have a pretty uniform coating of surface rust, and you should see the bells at the end of each pipe segment and the lead covering the oakum caulking.

If the system works well now, changing to a newer toilet should have little impact.

When the new water saver toilets were first introduced in the early 80's nearly everybody was having problems with them and generally the problems were blamed on the toilet fixture itself, but it was soon discovered that it was not the fault of the fixture.

Prior to the introduction of the water savers the code standard for a water closet fixture arm was 4", which was fine for the older 3.5 & 5gallon per flush toilets, but believe it or not, an oversized line will clog much faster than and undersized line. When a line if properly sized it should be 1/2 full at full load, which means the depth of the water is sufficient to suspend and carry all the solid particulates in the waste, but when they reduced the amount of water the level of water in the line was much lower, resulting in the solids rubbing the pipe as they flow. That reduces the velocity of the solids and in many cases the liquids will flow around the solids, leaving the solids to build up into a mass, which then dries in place one the liquids have passed.

Once that problem was fully realized they ammended the codes and now the standard size for a water closet fixture arm is 3". Changing to 3" is fine for new construction, but when one is retrofitting a water closet in an older home that still has the 4" lines, they often still experience the problems of lines frequently clogging and not knowing the real problem they blame the fixture.

Switching to the more expensive power flush toilets will force the waste up and through the fixture trapway faster, but once the waste enters the line, regardless of what fixture you have, you will experience the same problem on the large lines.

While it is often not financially practical, the real solution is to remove the 4" fixture arm and replace it with a 3" line, then even the cheap toilets will flush fine.

I changed my 4" cast iron to 3" PVC and I now have three el cheapo American Standards in my house that were $99 complete, including tank, bowl, seat, wax ring and mounting bolts, yet I have not had a single clog in the line in over 5 years since I made the switch.

Lazypup, I just learned something new with that very fantastic answer! I am saving it for later, when we are working on our plumbing.

Not to hijack, can you answer this?
How do you know (what would be the outside measurement) what diamater pipe you have if you were looking under the house, or looking at the main stack (are those the same?)

Also, when did the code change? (My house was built in 1982 and we have original 5gal + guzzlers, which I am wanting to switch to 1.6 gal. My 5gal ones work great! But, I am concerned now, with your answer, that I may be in for trouble.

Reading the original post again, the problem may be with the existing toilet. Next time the toilet needs flushing, don't push the handle/lever. Instead, quickly pour a bucket of water into the bowl. If it flushes properly, your pipes FROM the toilet are OK. If not, you need a plumber. If the bucket flushes it properly, the proper amount of water from the toilet tank is not getting to the bowl quickly enough.

Thank you everyone, very much!

Well it appears our pipes are just too old and 3/4 of the plumbers who've come by to give a bid have said they really just need to be replaced and have had too many repairs over the years. So if we do this, it won't really matter anymore what type of toilet we get! Also the galvanized pipes in our unfinished basement have the same situation (some were already replaced with wirsbo or however that's spelled, a year ago) so they're suggesting we just replace the remaining pipes that go to the 2nd-floor bathroom as well as the 1st floor powder room. The kitchen's already done with the new stuff. They said that means going up vertically inside the walls too.

We're terrified, as we're not made of money, even remotely. Sigh...

2 new questions please!:

- Ok to have them come up from dining room ceiling to avoid damaging hundred year-old hexagonal tile in the upstairs bathroom where they need to access all those pipes (and even though the pipes are INSIDE the floor and may be incased in 10" or so deep concrete??!!! I really want to save that tile! Am looking for a co. that sells original-looking hex tile for replacement pieces, FYI, that I've been needing for a while now, aside from the plumbing issue (there are some missing pieces I just need to replace and match as much as possible).

- Anything I should watch out for re. plumbers, or ask, or suggestions I should make or materials I should use, etc.? Is it better to hire a separate person to demo or patch, or use the plumber's guy? Might there be concerns about lead paint, if their crew does demo to get to the pipes? Sorry - I'm throwing a lot at you here but I've never had to think about any of this before.

Thanks so much!

"Well it appears our pipes are just too old..."

Separate the issues and deal with them separately. Which are drain, which are supply lines, which are 2", 3", 4", which are galvanized steel, which are cast iron. This requires a little methodical work. I know you can do it. After the inventory you will know better which pipes to replace and how. You may receive more tips.

Don't draw any conclusions yet. Don't go whole hog. Don't assume it all has to go. Don't hire a pro. You can leave the cast iron for a long time. Even if it's a 4" pipe it will be fine for many toilets. Post a photo here and on terrylove.com/forums

Why do I bother? This person was convinced before ever coming to this forum that new pipes are needed. The majority of the consulted plumbers picked up on that and reinforced the idea of new pipes needed- it means some work for the plumber. It is entirely possible that new pipes are needed - but strangely no leaks have been mentioned. Pipes that are shot usually leak. And the incredibly effective, incredibly low cost, bucket test has been ignored and left untried.
Enjoy the new pipes and the cost of them.

Ditto busdriver. It is very discouraging to see theresse confuse all the issues and post her hunch conclusion along with the incomplete information. I know theresse from the kitchen forum so I know she will respond to feedback.

Hey All -

Holy cow! Sorry...

I'm not usually so dismissive - in fact I'm surprised I "ignored" everyone's comments as it appeared I did (although I did read and appreciate them, honestly - I just must have gotten distracted and either fallen asleep at my laptop which is sadly common (Queen of TMI) or else run off in a hurry! Easy to do with 3 kids underfoot. It probably sounds like I'm just making excuses...).

What I failed to mention is that I'm in freak-out mode over here with yes leaking pipes, and this is in fact a coincidence. Our bathroom's above our dining room (well sits above part of the kitchen and part of the dining room) and the beautiful old unpainted wood above the swinging dining room door (leading to kitchen) is dripping onto the floor slowly. It's causing the wood above the door to expand and now the door won't close without rubbing. I'm worried about the beautiful wood and the moisture underneath (don't want rotting). I wouldn't be as concerned if it were painted - though would still be concerned of course.

So I've seen 4 plumbers and the most reputable of them have said - after examining closely (we even have a big hole in our bathroom floor from previous owner leaving it that way after a plumbing repair, so that's helped them see more - including the fact that that ring under the toilet is dry) - that it's time to replace it all. There's some question as to whether the drain pipes are necessary and a lot of testing has been done by them to evaluate what's going on. But because our tub and sink drain so terribly anyway and things look shoddy (lots of evidence of past repairs), we've been advised to put new stuff in. They can also start with the supply lines and see what they see when the get up in the walls to do that and possibly just do that. What's funny is that I asked him to do your flushing thing Bus Driver and he went up there to do a few things including that - and I heard the toilet flush even - but now I can't remember what he said (blush)! I get way spacey when I feel overwhelmed... I apologize for acting so ungrateful and inconsiderate. Damn.

The cost of plumbing alone (various bids and options depending on what we want to do) isn't as bad as I thought it was - not that it's going to be easy - but the demo and patching is where I have no idea what to expect price-wise (am waiting to hear back from people - just left messages). And if we rip out our lovely old floors :( it'll cost a fortune. Hoping to just find close-enough matching hexagonal tile and patch in...but I digress.

Ha - great - meanwhile a lil' sprog has just come down from bed so I'm signing off YET AGAIN to get him down but will come back later.

Thanks. and sorry again for my rudeness.