Our pool is three years old, with swg. We soft flagstone coping. No corrosion issues with coping, equipment, or damaged to plants. Very happy!

Eco-Smarte doesn't work well. The copper in the water, while somewhat effective in preventing algae, doesn't kill anything in the main body of the pool fast enough. It takes over 4 turns to get all the water to pass it's cell. If the pH rises above 7.0, staining will occur. Pumps need to run much longer per day.

Chlorinefreeusa uses copper and silver, still a slow kill time in the pool. Still an unsafe product in my book. If the pH rises, copper falls out and stains. If the pH drops, the silver falls out and stains.

If a bio-slime forms in a pool with either, chlorine will be needed to kill them. Guess what happens to a pool with a lot of metals in it and chlorine is added at the level needed to kill the slime? It turns cloudy for days!

There are three EPA registered sanitizers for pools. They are chlorine, bromine, and bianguinide products like Baquacil and Soft Swim. Portable hot tubs may also use them or ozone and monopersulfate.

Baquacil and Softswim are substantially more expensive than chlorine. People often have good results for a few years and then have problems.

Bromine is also quite expensive but more stable in the high temps found in tubs.

Salt pools are chlorine pools. What makes them special is that the salted water passes through a special electrically charged cell. Since salt is chemically sodium and chlorine, the cell splits the molecule. Eventually, the chlorine, if unused and not gassed off, will meet with the freed sodium atom and start the cycle anew.

The biggest contributors to damaged surfaces are weather and poor pool chemistry. You can't control the weather but you can control the materials you use and the pool chemistry.

Scott

These forums are incredible! Scott, thank you for what looks like a very succinct digest of what I was needing help with.

Wow the non-chlorine system sounds complicated? Can I ask is it known if salt water pools are succeptable to same kinds of issues? Much appreciated the testimonial about 3 years (not visible) signs of damage in the SWG pool. That is reassuring to someone about to take the plunge:)

Didn't know about the other sanitizers.... maybe not used a lot by the pool builders I asked or here in SE Texas.

Understood about chemistry the importance to learn it, use it, and be careful not to mess it up. Better to be safe than sorry.

Would really like to elminate the chemicals but sounds like they will be needed to protect me from what else is in the pool (slime, algae, bacteria, etc). I am liking the idea of salt making the chlorine for me (electricity $$ oh well). That chlorine is really caustic when not in the water. But I guess its time to warm up the idea of handling acids, chlorine, etc to keep it all going.

.

Non chlorine pools = fail

Nothing eliminates the need for chemicals.

Salt cells don't use a lot of power.

Salt water chlorine generators create the sanitizer. These pools would be just as susceptible to any unwanted biologicals if the sanitizer level is low. With proper pool chemistry, over 98% of these biologicals are toasted fairly quickly (within a minute) and before they have a chance to multiply. Periodically boosting the level of sanitizer (chlorine) takes care of the rest and removes combined chlorine. Boosting is as simple as adding a gallon or two of Clorox.

Chlorine also breaks down oils, lotions, sweat, urine, fecal,etc.. into non-harmful products that can be filtered or cause them to gas off.

Most folks, once they get a stable pool, test once or twice a week.

Hard water damages and stains far more than a salted pool. The southwest region of our nation is known for high calcium levels in the water. Some calcium in a gunite pool is needed. Because water is also known as the Universal Solvent, having a 200 ppm level will make the water less aggressive toward drawing the calcium from plaster finishes. Keeping the pH down prevents the elevated levels found in hard water (300 ppm and up) from dropping out of solution and forming deposits know as scale.

Salt cell equipped pools tend to see the pH rise. With new pools, the curing of the plaster has a similar effect. The use of Muriatic acid added to the pool counters this.

Keeping many pools sanitized and clean under all the various conditions is not as easy as keeping a single pool clean with it's more limited environment. Once you learn what your pool needs, regular care will be about an hour or two (at the most) per week, usually a lot less if you have a pool sweep or robot.

In my area of the country, we used to have a mens clothing retailer called Symms. Their slogan was,"An educated consumer is our best customer". It's that kind of attitude that brings the builders and service guys that are active contributers here, here.

Scott

I've built many hundreds of salt pools in your area since they started becoming popular early in the new millennium.
My experiences have been that the softer rocks like the Arizona Rosa or Sedona Red show poorly a couple of years later without sealer, the Oklahoma rocks are harder and do much better. The really hard rocks like Pennsylvania Lilac have no problems at all
I've seen a lot of degradation on the metal products associated with the pools such as diving board base stands, ladders, handrails, etc...
I've been using plastic insulated metal products and avoiding diving boards.
People really love salt water pools, once informed they have to make their own decisions.
Trust me on this, steer clear of the non-chlorine systems, it's snake oil. Chlorine works best in pools and bromine works best in stand alone hot tubs. Chlorine enhanced systems do OK too, these are usually ozonators working in conjunction with a salt water or erosion chlorinator.

quote" An educated consumer is our best customer "quote

This, my internet friends, is a fact.

See ya,
Kelly

Many thanks to these responses. It's very cool how on-topic and to-the-point everyone is. The hard won knowledge transfer happening on this forum is immense.

Completely understood that salt is corrosive to all but the heartiest of metals and stone. In exchange (IMHO) maybe a little silkier swim experience and additional healing power for skin abrasions. I might even ask the about filling the pool with softened water :)

Just my personal preference here about deciding on a salt based system. I can't take anything away from non-chlorine or chlorine-only systems but I also can't deny the spoken popular opinions given here... chlorine stands the test of time.

Saltwater pool owners will know or eventually get schooled(hard knocks) on sealing the rock and picking the materials that will hold up. They will sometimes also put an ozonator on the system and can safely add chlorine if needed.

Any advice for adding minerals like the non-chlorine system does? Possibly floating dispenser, inline device at the equipment pad, or spare change in the skimmer basket)?

Again sincerely thanks for your time and sharing the knowledge.

poolguynj
Ouch just realized you said water will pull calcium out of the plaster if needed to balance itself. Softened water is "without calcium" so that would be bad if I filled pool with softened water? Spring water tastes crisp from the minerals in it (*balanced* by the earth).

Any thoughts on if these minerals in the water ever stack up in the pipes and on the surfaces of pools like the water softeners work to prevent from happening to the insides of pipes and glass on shower door inside the house?

I didn't think to ask before but asking now about "build up" on surfaces with any pool system?

Again the knowledge thing happening here is awesome.., one poster from perspective of maintaining many pools, another from building many, many, many pools :))

If a test of your non-softened water source showed higher than 300 ppm of calcium hardness and the softened water has 100, I would use the softened water and add just enough calcium to get to 200 or so. It's a safer level that will reduce water's aggressiveness towards the calcium in the finish and tends to be somewhat more forgiving if the pH rises.

It's unlikely for a build up in pool plumbing have a significant effect but it is possible in filters, heaters, and especially SWGs. Most have an automatic cell polarity reversal that tends to loosen any formed deposits but will shorten a cell's life if used too frequently. Cells can also be given a soak in diluted Muriatic acid to clean off the deposits.

Another great resource that is complimentary to this forum is www.troublefreepools.com and I strongly encourage seeing what they offer. Many of us participate there also.

Scott

quote" An educated consumer is our best customer "quote

No, a rich one with low standards is the best customer =)

quote" No, a rich one with low standards is the best customer =) "quote

LMAO!!!

See ya,
Kelly

I seem to always be the alternate voice in this discussion about 'other choices' of sanitation. I will build a salt water pool if the buyer INSISTS and will sign a disclaimer as to potential damage to stone and equipment AND if I am able to price in a sealer for all the stone around the pool. My preference for the last 1-1/2 yrs has been the UltraPure Ozone system. My clients will gladly tell my future buyers that they LOVE it...and many have had salt pools in the past. The water has the same qualities as a salt water pool, but it is less expensive to install (at least for me). You still need a chlorinator with it, but you don't use much of the chlorine. There isn't that chlorine smell or negative affects of chlorine on your skin, eyes, etc., because you are using so little chlorine. Ultraviolet light as produced by the Ozonator is the primary sanitizer. Corona discharge type ozonators do not seem to work well in humid climates like Houston, so that's why I use the UltraPure. I am a fan and my customers are too

womanowned,

We've been through this before, haven't we.

Ozone is a supplemental system only. The amount of chlorine in a pool needed to keep it free of live biologicals and unoxidized wastes doesn't change. It can help reduce chlorine demand since it does still see a significant volume of water and that water will have wastes oxidized and rendered inert but the amount of chlorine in the pool needs to stay the same.

Ozone only oxidizes contaminants after they pass through the injection chamber. It may take over 4 turns of the pool to happen. Most people set up for 1 to 2 turns a day.

It does nothing for anything in the pool since it's nearly gone by the time it get s there. I think it's half life is about 22 seconds.

Sodium Chloride, aka salt, in and of itself is not corrosive. Add water and it conducts electricity. Any salt deposits in rock pores is dissolved again when in contact with water. Chlorine in large concentrations is corrosive.

If salt was so corrosive, why don't eyes burn when tears wash them? Tears are about 8000 ppm. Pools are typically 3000 to 3500 ppm. Why does the metal on my salt shaker top last forever?

Poor pool chemistry and weather have a far greater impact in the materials used. If the materials used are effected by electrolysis, a zinc sacrificial anode can be added, assuming the current source causing the electrolysis can't be remedied. Any currents formed will attack a zinc anode 1st, leaving all other materials forsaken.

Scott, The Anti-Fear-Mongerer

Courage is fear that has said it's prayers.

Great informaion here. I am also trying to determine to go with saltwater or Ozonator / Chlorine. I am leaning towards Saltwater because of hair and skin feel, plus my labrador likes to swim, but now am worried about alternate choices for coping. Our pool company suggested using brick & cloping to eliminate the deterioration issues. Not sure I even like the brick look. Any other choices for coping?

FWIT, salt water pools are chlorine pools. Ozone systems can supplement them too.

Another fact, a breath of Ozone will rip apart your lungs faster than chlorine. It is about as strong an oxidizer as there is. The concentrations used for residential pool sanitizing and oxidizing are substantially diluted so they don't pose a health risk.

Commercial pools using chlorine gas have very strict guidelines to ensure safe handling. Only authorized and trained personnel may handle tasks such as bottle exchanging and adjusting if levels.

Coping comes in many shapes and materials. Brick comes in a number of colors as does cast concrete. There is an enormous number of stone types that are also resistant to pool environments.

While adding salt to a pool will allow it to conduct electricity, so will chemistry balancers, algaecides, and just about anything else that can get into pool water. Electrolysis happens. Oxidation happens. Life happens.

Scott

Poolguynj...I assume your experience is east coast. If you would like to call my customers in the Houston area with ozone systems and let them testify to you that they do work, contrary to your opinion, then please let me know. You are simply misinformed on the value of ozone in our area. I can't speak for New Jersey, nor should you speak for Houston. The type of ozone you are suggesting breathing in is an entirely different type of ozone. Before venturing hard and fast comments on systems, please check them out thoroughly first and remember the part of the country you are addressing. You unnecessarily scare people with comments like that. I admire your comments on many things, but not this one!

I am a little worried : ( I was going back and forth with trying to decide on a salt water system or Ozone. How will I know if too much ozone is off gassing? If I decide on Ozone, will the builder I choose be knowledgable enough to help me understand it?

My vote is for the salt system in most cases. Variables that may influence this are bather load, environment, and materials used.

There are several threads here and at TFP where the pluses and minuses of ozone generators are discussed at length.

Ozone usually breaks down to O2 before it can gas off. The short life of an ozone molecule is why it is only a supplemental and not a primary oxidizer.

The only builders here that use them here on the forum are are topfiftybuilder and womanowned, both of whom I hold in high regards for the quality of their work and ethics.

Scott

Pooldreamer,

I don't build or maintain, just a homeowner. I'm a new pool owner that went through a few months of research before deciding. Here are the trade-offs as I understand them.

I know of no residential water quality standards (you can swim in a septic tank if desired), but commercial standards all require chlorine/bromine or baqua products.

Bromine and Baqua are out (for pools) based on an overwhleming number of complaints. There are still happy campers out there, but they seem in the minority so unless you just like being out there,....

Tab style chlorine and granular chlorine out out except on a temp basis (vacations etc.) since with reduced

Can't participate in the technical and knowledgeable discussions going on here, but as a SW pool owner for over 3 years I would like to comment on the coping and deck issue. This subject of damage from salt water to stone surrounding pools is raised over and over on this forum.
We have quartzite coping, called South Bay, and an identical appearing variegated flagstone (for economy and ease of building) for the pool deck, neither has ever been sealed. We have a raised quartzite wall on one side of the pool that begins beneath the surface of the water, and a spillover down the wall from the spa. Both types of stone around our pool have withstood the effects of salt water and our harsh Florida sun without any damage whatsoever! It looks the way it did when it was first installed.
Perhaps a little more care in choice of stone needs to be exercised if choosing a saltwater pool, but from personal experience it is certainly possible to enjoy all the benefits of a SW pool without fear of damage to the coping and deck!

So we are planning on installing a pool in Feb of next year. Thus, are really doing alot of planning & researching right now. I have been sold on SW pool as several friends of mine have them and they have no complaints and take care of their water correctly. However, about 3 other friends have had pools built or in the process of building right now and the local builders have discouraged each of them from going with saltwater. I have heard that they will not warranty your pool and make you sign a waiver if you choose salt. I also heard that some of the pebble companies will not provide the longer warranty with a salt pool (sounds bogus to me). I have not spoken with a builder directly yet myself, but why are they discouraging salt so much. This is been with 3 different builders in Beaumont, TX?

I figure this is a topic that I would like to chime in on.

Salt pools in the US started becoming popular like Kelly said about 10 years ago. I as a pool builder am leary of any new technology that has not ben thouroghly tested. Even though I do install the systems when asked to I still give the pros and cons of using these systems. This all being said I have seen a trend over the past few years. For every salt system that I install I am removing 2 of the systems on other pools. Why is this you ask. In most cases it in the stone around the pool being washed away. And others are from equipment failures caused by the salt. Many will argue on here that salt is not corrosive and that bonding of a pool will solve these problems. I disagree. I build my pools properly and when I continue to have the same problems on salt pools that I do not have on Regular erosion feeder systems. I have to question what is the problem. And the common factor is the salt systems. Nothing else.

As far as Ozone systems. this is another system that I do not believe in. I think it is a big waste of money. Just another gimic for you to buy to put on your pool. Now even though I do not see the problems with this system that you see with salt I do not see the benefit of using them.

This all leads back to my personal opinion that they have been using chlorine for well over 100 years on pools and never have seen the service issues that we see today with all the different type of chorination and augmentations sytems that are installed now days.

So if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Good luck on the pool build.

The choice of materials used is key as far as weather. As I have said before, I have never seen, in my area, stone break up due to salt. It has been, invariably, weather. Porous stone may trap water. Freezes hit hand the water becomes ice and expands. The stone can't take the pressure and cracks. The use of these porous materials is discouraged.

Metals such as stainless and copper, OTH, needs to be bonded and that bonding should be attached to the main power's ground. Long electrical runs should also have an additional ground rod driven in near the equipment pad. Some may require sacrificial anodes should there be any stray currents causing electrolytic reactions causing corrosion. These situations are rare. Eliminate the stray current and corrosion ceases.

Salt cells for pool use started in Australia about 30 years ago. In the US, it started getting popular about 10 years ago.

Scott

Scott, I agree. Based on all the research I have done up front if you plan to do saltwater you plan accordingly. Use hard stone, (Oklahoma, etc), try to minimize any exposed metals (ladders, etc) and ensure the pool is bonded. Maintain proper water treatment etc. So if all this is done in advance then why is it that all the builders in this area SE Texas are not wanting to install salt systems and if you force them to they void their warranty. Also, I understand fighting irish's point as well. Just as you said if improper materials are used there will be problems. However, Use the correct materials, maintain proper water chemistry, and provide me a warranty... Why is that so hard?

Having a Saltwater pool, and prior a Chlorine pool. I would do a Saltwater pool again, except for one issue. I have aluminum screen enclosure which uses steel bolts / screws in the concert deck these screws rust heavy and needed to be replaced with Stainless Steel screws in areas which salt water can hit. Other then that nothing big but not happy with a propane heater used for spa as it seems to rust a little earlier then I felt it should. Not sure if this is related to a Saltwater pool system or not.

Joe,

Aren't you on a canal? Is it brackish?

What brand of heater?

Stainless screws should have been used to begin with.

A saltwater pool is a chlorine pool.

Scott