Zeebee: I have to say at just a cursory glance my first thought was that the cleanup does seem too far from the prep area. You may have your heart set on the double french doors but just for my 2cents, I think I might consider eliminating the left set of doors, turn the corner with a run of cabs and put my sink under a huge window looking out at the garden. That way you'd free up enough space for a DW area where it sounds like you'd prefer it to be. I might then have the area 'behind' the table more for china cabinet/pantry type stuff. You may have already considered that and ruled it out though. I'm sure you'll get lots more great ideas from the super kitchen designers on here! Good luck!

What about Pantry from counter height up, Dishwasher Drawer, deep drawer underneath?

For a set of wide open French doors, I would probably not consider rinsing stuff off in the prep sink and setting it aside and then walking it to the DW with it in one trip that big of a deal, but then again, I haven't had I kitchen where I had to do this either.

Deedles: yes, we considered and ruled out turning the corner/the U-shape. The house is a narrow rowhouse and DH is dead-set on the French doors for light and garden access. It's become his non-negotiable item.

Palimpsest: ooooh, like the idea about the DD placement, that might work! My gut is that the prep-to-cleanup walk won't be a big deal. But, TKO that I am, I'm afraid someone who has that distance in their kitchen (about 17' from sink to DW, I just measured) will look at the plan and think, foolish woman, I make that walk and I hate it, I bought a pedometer to measure the mileage I rack up every day, if I had to do it again.....

I would switch the pantry and fridge, maybe with a slightly narrower pantry...18"? It will look better, put the fridge further from the chair backing up into it (when the door opens) and be closer to the prep sink and range.

At first glance, I like the other plan much better...but with the right cabinetry and detals...this could be a very nice alternative. I think you'd have to bring out some charm for it to work, with the french doors and split kitchen. Make the clean up area look more like a dining room hutch and maybe add a plate rack or glass uppers. It's laid out like an older style kitchen (IMHO) and the more classic details will look great.

Tell DH he picked the table and the layout...so you get what YOU want for the finishes. That was stainless steel appliances, white cabinets and marble countertops, right? Or are those just my ideas, for your kitchen? That would be a beautiful combination, with a dark wood floor and maybe a fancy lighting fixture, over the table. If you want to break up the marble, you could put wood countertops (maybe walnut) on either side of the clean up area...so it looks like they're built-in hutches, on either side :)

I think this works pretty well given your parameters. In many ways, a PITA, but it looks like it works and flows.

There is a hugely different feeling here, though. In your prior go round, the focus was on the windows/doors. There was a corridor through to get to the yard with seating on one side and kitchen access on the other. The yard was the star. In this plan, the focus is the table. The windows/doors are a backdrop for the table, which is an island in the middle of the path out. Even though there is great sense in having the dish zone, inc. clean up, on the one side and the kitchen on the other, it's basically a bigger kitchen with a big ol' table in the middle of the path. The table is king.

So...what do you (both of you) want the kitchen to be? For you and your guests?

Is there really a "path" out though? Is there that much traffic? I am assuming this yard is a relatively small dead end? This is an English basement in a Rowhouse, right?

Zeebee, I love the table in the middle and symmetric doors to the garden. It would be such a nice place to sit and chat and dine. Your table (outline) looks perfect. :)

If you go that way, how about turning that pantry into a split pair on the other side of the room, flanking the ends by the coffee station and hutch, then arranging the sink/DW cleanup optimally between the current sink and fridge? Having more open counter would probably make that whole area feel better to work in, too, and the whole room a bit more spacious. You'd have a good decent work space on each side of the stove, with most of the cleanup mess off to the side as you entered and partially shielded by the fridge, or at least feeling out of the main area. You'd also have no trouble at all making that magic that was mentioned on the dining wall so that it'd be as attractive in its way as the view out to the garden.

Regarding the old island and banquette idea, if I remember, I suggested a small but expandable table and pair of chairs in front of nice long banquette. That would give you guys a table and chairs for daily dining, with the banquette for lounging but always ready to multitask when you're seating guests for dinner. Neither of you would ever have to slide behind a table to sit down.

Palimpsest, I didn't mean "in the path out" like blocking the way. I was talking about focus and intent. The first plan focuses on the view of the yard and the light coming in. The second one focuses on the table and the kitchen wrapping around it. One of the reasons for that is that the table eliminates the implied corridor.

That's a good thing if you want the kitchen to be terminal, with the windows just a backdrop. It's less good, if you want that focus. If you want to amp up the view, however, stick to a coridor plan, and have the full length view out smack you as you walk down the hall.

Wow, thanks for your replies and comments. Sorry it took me so long to respond: took off for theater and dinner with a friend, stayed out late, battling dessert-wine hangover this morning, ugh.

Lavender Lass: good point about swapping fridge and pantry, which would also gain me a landing area next to the fridge, something I forgot about. I agree that charm/style is much more important in this kitchen, because you are right smack in the middle of it. I wanted to have a traditional feel (goes best with rest of the house) and was thinking about the dish hutch with glass uppers, probably all the way down to the counter, and also glass uppers over the beverage area. I like your idea of the marble/wood countertop mix idea over on that cleanup wall. You are breaking down my resistance to white cabinets, as long as I can have some real color somewhere.

Plllog: thank you, your point about the kitchen going from garden/outdoors-focused to table-focused, outward to inward, is exactly what has been hovering over me as I did this plan, though I could not articulate it. What we want the kitchen to be is exactly what we need to clarify in our heads. I am a cook and not a gardener, so having a larger cooking-focused kitchen is my priority. I need to get DH to help me figure out what his priority/vision is. The concept of kitchen as terminus versus kitchen as corridor to outdoors is important.

Palimpsest: it is an English basement but one with decent light, my clumsy self forgot to show the windows at the front of the house. The front entrance is about 18" below the ground, and there are two tall skinny windows (5' high, 28" wide) in the front room whose bottom edge is just above pavement level. We are built on a slight slope, so by the time you get to the back of the house, you step down about 6" from the kitchen into the yard. The yard is definitely small, 19x55, and enclosed by fencing.

Rosie: I see your point about moving the tall pantry space over to the long wall and moving the DW back in the main work space. It would give me a more spacious prep work area. But do you think it blurs the division of prep and cleanup zones too much? It would keep all the dishes on the prep/cooking side of the room and move some of my prep pantry away; on the other hand, dirty stuff would be tucked into the corner right next to the fridge, and I would keep less-used pantry items on the long wall. Hmmmm.... And you are right, you had brought up the idea of an extendable table with the banquette. I do not think I pictured clearly in my mind what you meant, but a small table (which would only be extended for company) in front of a long banquette gives a more open feel than a long table boxing in all the banquette seating.

Ok. I need to fuss with my planner and see what a few of the changes suggested above would mean to this plan, and talk with DH tonight about what we want the kitchen focus to be (outward versus inward). THANKS for all the thoughtful feedback!

Do not want to end discussion if anyone else has suggestions/comments - please post away!

Zeebee

Zeebee- White cabinets will be fine, with the glass uppers, your dishes will provide the color! Maybe blue and white? Very classic.

The marble will also provide some color and I think choosing the 'right' lighting fixture, over the table, is a must. You can blend rustic and traditional, but don't get a farmhouse table that is too 'battered' since it will be your focal point.

As for the inside/outside, yes the table will be your centerpiece, but the garden will still be your view, from the table and while you're working in the kitchen. Do you have space for a garden? (Sorry, I can't remember what you said, in the last post.) If you do, then you can create a charming garden, in a small space. Start with some good soil and plants that thrive, in your area. I'd want an 'english cottage' garden, with vines, shrub roses, some perennials and maybe space for a small table and chairs. You can do amazing things in small spaces...and maybe even tuck in some salad vegetables...a little kitchen garden, off the kitchen :)

We do have a garden, and right now it is an English cottage style....and we need to scale it back. The prior owner was a serious and dedicated gardener, and the number of plants and maintenance required was a joy to her, an expensive and guilt-inducing burden to us. As soon as we've nailed down the kitchen design, we're talking to our gardeners about a re-design to coordinate with the kitchen reno, at least having the heavy hauling of plants, dirt and stone in and out occur when that level of the house is a mess anyway.

Oh, what a fun project! It can be overwhelming, but cottage gardens can also be low maintenance, if well planned. This is an excellent time to redesign the garden space and make it your own.

I was very intimidated by the amount of work gardening would take...until I discovered shrub roses...especially old fashioned ones. I'm in eastern Washington (zone 4) and they can take the cold, no spraying, no babying, no fuss...just beautiful blooms! They look great with other perennials and annuals. And, if you plant annuals in the gaps, you won't have as much trouble with weeds. The flowers will shade the soil, like a mulch.

The only trouble I have with roses...is hiding them from the deer, which you won't have :)

19 x 55 is small?:)

I guess its all relative: mine is 8x20, surrounded by concrete, and that's big, in my neighborhood.

Pal- 19' x 55' would be small around here, but still plenty of room for a lovely garden. 8' x 20' would be tiny. My mom lives in town and most of the homes have about 1/4 acre...which seems small to me, since we live on a farm. It's all relative.

Do you have any pictures of your garden? Sounds like it's a little oasis of green, in the city.

Zeebee, having cleanup in the middle of food prep is my own horror, so I understand the problem. However, if you designated your cleanup essentially on the left wall/corner area, that would confine cleanup to the sink and area to its left. Prep would be from the sink on to its right.

When I designed the kitchen in my new house, my two big priorities were plenty of work space and cleanup totally separated from it. Well, the kitchen isn't terribly large, but I have all that, prep on a spacious island and generous areas on both sides of the stove. It's great and I love it, but having had it I know I could be perfectly happy and do just as well with much less work space--just as long as it was well designed and I didn't have to push dirty dishes away to get at it.

When I look at your current plan, I see an L counter that, properly set up, would work well for me. That 39" to the left of the stove is actually almost exactly the amount of space I work in daily here (the rest mostly just gets a drippy mixing bowl, busy spoon, or some such thing set on it so I have to wipe it down anyway).

Regarding kitchen as hallway, I don't see it. What those doors do is create a view for the interior space, same as any large expanse of glass, plus provide the opportunity to open the house to the garden when you choose. I personally would want to be able to draw drapes or shutters, or whatever, when the weather's unappealing or you just want a cozily introverted space, and having learned from my mistakes would choose my window treatments as part of the design profess for my windows/doors.

Your garden's going to be lovely. I'm a big gardener, but agree for sure, definitely no "cottage" garden for you. Been there, love it, but it is THE most challenging of all garden styles to keep really good looking all through the flowering season. I've spent years trying to get good enough to pull that trick off and had a lot of fun--but! At least I was in California. These days a temperate climate means 6 months of drear.

Over the years, I've really come to love finely designed green gardens full of lovely foliage juxtaposed against handsome hardscape to provide structure and contrast. Occasional flowers throughout the seasons can provide variety but mainly just serve to set the main feature off. A garden like that can be gorgeous in all seasons, with and without floral accents, and when well designed also be the easiest to care for of all. The foliage also softens all the masonry and other construction around and adds privacy. It can also serve as a home for birds. We really enjoy watching the birds from our windows, and my gardens now will always be designed to attract them.

In any case, beauty's a function of good design. It truly doesn't have to be heavy maintenance at all. In your case, I think you owe it to yourselves to create a beautiful view for your home so you can enjoy it both at the kitchen/dining level and from above. :)

I know this is kind of off topic, but here's a few pictures of what I consider cottage gardens...maybe not at all, what everyone else is thinking :)

A picture from Cottage Living, with an easy to care for, perennial area... {{gwi:1737635}}From Lavender's Garden

A lovely Veilchenblau rambler rose, growing up a tree, from Rogue Valley Roses. This looks more like a woodland garden, to me... {{gwi:1737636}}From Lavender's Garden

And a picture of the fairy garden (with castle) that my nieces like to play in, on the shady side of the house...mainly roses, perennials and some herbs :) {{gwi:640085}}From Lavender's Garden

Zeebee- Whatever you decide to do, it's going to be a beautiful extension, of your new kitchen :)

Palimpsest: it is all relative, isn't it? I grew up in the Midwestern suburbs and my dad's rose and begonia beds alone were the size of my current backyard, so my thinking is warped by suburban standards. But this house is also the first place I have ever owned in NYC with any outdoor space at all.

Rosie: I get where you are going on the cleanup area. I am going to plug that into the plan, then mock it up in the kitchen. And DH is very big on window treatments for the French doors. I had not thought about drapes at all but that would add an interesting element - soft and warm. Hmmmm......

The garden planning will be fun. Knowing how little time DH has to devote to maintenance (garden upkeep is his project), we both want to go mostly green with a few floral accents.

For you gardeners (Rosie and Lavender Lass), here is a photo of the prior owner's concept of an English cottage garden in all its full-bloom glory. This picture was part of the online real estate listing when the house went on the market in 2007. VERY intimidating for newbie gardeners! It is somewhat thinned out from this, but still a LOT of upkeep.

Wow! That is a lot of garden. I like the curve (which provides a little mystery) but I'd want much narrower beds. Maybe a little patio/grass area, off the arbor (lovely wisteria) and you could tuck a little patio, in the back, left corner. The shrub/tree in the back, right corner is nice...maybe some plantings under/around that...and a bed, where the pink (azalea?) is now?

It's a nice area, but I can see why it's more garden than you want. It is a great size and it's all fenced in, so if you don't like the cottage garden look, then a more formal design might work, too. Have you ever looked at potagers?

It's a lovely space, so you have a lot of possibilites :)

I know I'm late to the conversation, but jumping from the drawing to make a comment and skipping all the other stuff (apologies if I'm off base), just wanted to say that you have nearly two rooms full of space and yet you're just using the perimeter of the room, with the island/table as a hub. No matter what, that table will be in the way and everything you want to pick up or work with will always be on the wrong wall a full room width away. The middle will become plunk space with things headed elsewhere or just accumulating there. Put a bouquet in the middle of it and set the table and you loose your plunk space.

Is it possible to move both sets of French doors down to the bottom of that outside wall on the drawing, leaving you some consolidated non-door space on the outside wall for the kitchen? If the kitchen activities could occur in a more consolidated space, you would have a table / desk / library / keeping room / whatever on the stair wall and also your fabulous views which will be seen from the hallway and from the cooking kitchen as well as the sort-of-a-room on the end of the kitchen. You would probably use the upper French door most of the time and the lower one would be more "wall" although a door--since this gives you a nook area on the two walls.

We have a long view from front door through entire old part of our house to an Atrium door at back and then deck overlooking a lake. The front door has a full-view window with embedded blinds so we can have it totally open or partly closed or fully closed. We put a matte glass interior door midway down this long hall-ish view so that it is possible to prevent viewing the back of the house from the front door when we want this.

Having that view both directions front-to-back makes the house very very special.

If your kitchen were tucked entirely into the top section of the space and the table were in that bottom of diagram walking space somewhere, the view from table at meals would be great plus the table itself would be attractive from the front and the stairs and hall even when kitchen is in mess mode.

Florantha, we also have a view, not spectacular but sunny and pretty, down the length of our house. It's a great feature.

What a great outdoor space to work with! I'm imagining a pair of small trees about 2/3 of the way down (or 3/4 or whatever) that'd block a lot of the windows and create yet another garden space destination, a path leading under the trees mysterious and inviting... :) Hope you love the wisteria. In California the wisteria on our pergola would throw out runners that would almost bridge the 10' gap to the house over a 2-3-week vacation in the summer, but I never considered giving it up.

Regarding window treatments, Zeebee, the biggest point I wanted to make was that window/door sizes and placements need to be designed NOW to accommodate any and all window treatments you might conceivably want in the future. Even if you really don't want drapes or shutters now, for instance, draw fairly standard sizes in to see how they'd work and what should be changed to make them really look good. You may already know all this. I didn't when I designed our windows and I sure wish I did.

I grew up with lots of open space too, but have for many years lived with no outdoor space at all. For NY, that is a large yard :)

I looked at a house where they did say it had a small outdoor space, and this is what they meant: about 15' x 28" or so, (yes inches) and the privy passage (which technically is shared in common with the neighbor)

Anyway, I was looking at the doorway and noticed that the hall widened right outside the kitchen. If you kept the doorway completely aligned with the front door but shrunk it, you would also gain space on the prep side of the kitchen, again possibly gaining space for the secondary DW on that side.

I'm not so bothered by the table in the center, its a movable object and I would imagine that sometimes it could be pushed toward the windows and sometimes it would occupy the center...it's not like an immobile island would be. If need be you could even take it out altogether on occasion.

am I the only who expected John Phillip Sousa's "Liberty Bell" march to sound when I opened this thread? (aka the Monty Python theme song)

zeebee, I'm sorry that I don't have any layout ideas. But if your DH is set on lots of door space on that wall, and florantha doesn't convince you otherwise :), a thought might be to use four-panel sliding doors so you can really open up the middle. Lolauren has a set in her great room (*love* her kitchen too, and I don't even particularly like white kitchens) in the thread below. We're putting in a set of ten foot wide doors, so when they're both open, there's a five foot wide open section in the middle.

anyway, just a thought to confuse (a cat :) )!

cheerio

Here is a link that might be useful: Lolauren's kitchen and great room