Asking a PB Quetions During Bidding Process

14 years ago

Hi Everyone,

From a few earlier posts I had I noted that we are in the pre-contract state for a pool where we are getting bids, comparing contracts, researching the company, etc. Because we are trying to understand the wide range of materials used for each bid, price differences for each and why some are higher or lower than others, and fully understand the warranties of each company bidding, we of course have some questions.

We spoke to several companies and in our area there are (were) actually 3 companies we like (whose names are irrelevant to this post). We are down to the wire on final pool shapes, sizes and came to an area where we asked several questions to one of these companies and received a very rude email back (in all caps for some words as if they were yelling at me) that they are not interested in bidding anymore because we are asking too many questions and they are very offended and frustrated that weÂd ask.

So here were some of my questions to give you some background.

1. Do you use a solid peace of coping or is it chipped pieces?

2. Is your stonework real or foe? (this came up from someone we talked to so we had to ask)

3. What size is the plumbing? Because we heard anything under 2" was not good we had to ask.

4. The quote says (2) 1 HP pumpsÂcan you price out an ePump for us and what do you think about a 2 HP for our project? (from some comments from our other post on this forum).

5. What does the warranty work look like?

6. Can we talk to your subs for references?

7. Your pavers are $2.50 higher than every company we talked to and all landscape companies, what is better about your pavers and what is the brand weÂd get.

As far as a home owners pool goes, we are not that big and do not require retaining walls and massive water features nor a spa but rather doing a modest pool with pebbletec and upgraded pavers plus a ton of other landscaping, wood deck redo, steel fence (per our community requirements), lighting, and about 3000 sqft of zoysia sod. So perhaps our pool is not all that fancy to this said builder but our entire yard and project is pretty big (for us).

Okay, hereÂs our questionsÂIs it wrong to ask these questions and should a pool builder feel upset that I did or should I feel better knowing that if they get this upset pre-contract and treat us like that just think how they would be post-contract.

This was the only company we ran into that treated us poorly like thisÂeven the others that we said no thank you to after the first or second meeting were gracious in offering ideas and extremely nice.

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Comments (20)

huskyridor
14 years ago
quote" received a very rude email back (in all caps for some words as if they were yelling at me) that they are not interested in bidding anymore because we are asking too many questions and they are very offended and frustrated that weÂd ask. "quote

IMO, you should flush them immediately.
That is the totally wrong mindset for a pool construction business owner or his sales professional.
Know this, every question you ask should be regarded by your potential builder as a step closer to a capture and close. They should be gracious and polite even if some of the questions seem irrelevant.
I'll answer yours as if you were addressing us.

1- I prefer solid slabs of natural flagstone 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" thick. If the buyer wants smaller pieces we do it.

2- Our rock work is always real rocks straight from the quarries I purchase from. 2 for flagstone and 3 for Hill Country waterfall boulders. If the buyer wants faux boulders we offer Boulder Creations, these are steel reinforcing rods bent into rock shapes, wrapped with metal lath, shot with gunite, then finished with colored non staining cement, and airbrushed color tones. They look kind of like Bedrock on The Flintstones.

3- 2" minimum, with the exception of the pool sweep line which is 1 1/2".

4- 2 1 hp pumps are good for a pool only with no spa and a water feature, if you have a spa moving up to a 2 hp or a 2 1/2 hp pays in spades. you'll never regret it unless it's your primary filtration pump and it's a single speed. This pump will consume some amps.

5- Hopefully better than the first work. We wouldn't be coming back unless you thought there was something unacceptable.

6- Absolutely, I have a industry reference list. As a matter of fact I encourage you to ask other builders subs about me too. I'd feel certain that they know of me and my company.

7- I'm sorry but my price is my price. If you choose to use an outside entity I'll give full credit for the allowance. Obviously they must do more pacer work than us and have preferential pricing from their service provider and the wholesaler of the product.

NEVER BE AFRAID to ask questions of your potential buyer.
You'll find out lots about their caliber on the front end of signing the Agreement.
Trust me on this, if the guy your referring to is this way now, I definitely wouldn't want to deal with him on a problem during my build.

Thanks for supporting the industry with your pool purchase. You'll soon find out what all the Hoopla of pool ownership is all about. I promise you it's pretty good stuff having a backyard pool, and it's much much more than just the swimming.

See ya,
Kelly
ollieboy
Original Author
14 years ago
Thanks Kelly for the reply. I even told them that our questions were about not knowing versus us "questioning" from not trusting. It was an isolated incident and every single company responded like how you did which gives us great comfort in the process. Perhaps I hit them on a bad day so I'll let it slide ... but they are off the list.

Thanks again.
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lmhall2000
14 years ago
Ollieboy,

I ran into the same thing when I had 3 companies bid. I have had experience contracting and know what things cost, what I do not know is going rates for labor...so when the bids come in 300% more than the materials, I have to question. Those that respond with 'hostility' you would not want to deal with..what happens when something goes wrong, you want a builder who's cool as a cucumber and does not overreact or challenge your concerns. This is YOUR pool, you have to live with it for years, ask as many questions as you can so there are no misunderstandings.

Kelly gave some great points...there are decent companies out there who take pride in their craft and would not hesitate to answer your questions....to me those who balk are cutting corners and they know it...they just don't want to get caught..

Tara
poolguynj
14 years ago
If they aren't interested, then they aren't interested. Kelly is right. Never, ever give them another opportunity for anything you may wish to do in the future.

I like Flagstone, assorted lengths. I also like brick coping and pre-cast. What I like is irrelevant. What you the customer wants to see is important.

If your choice is something that I have found to have problems in the past, I let them know about it and why that material may not be as durable as they might want, given replacement costs being what they are. For example, some brick is not suitable for the North East due to freeze that related issues like spontaneous fractures,chipping, and feathering.

I much prefer real rock over man made products for waterfalls but along a raised spa or beam, the mortared on faux finished such as made by 3M give a homeowner an enormous selection of looks and textures. The gunite stone is so dependent on the artist doing the finishing touches. I have seen some that almost fooled me and others that, as Kelly said, looked like the Flintstones granite chunks.

The use of 2" pipe has been the preferred choice of pipe size for some time now. There are times when even larger is needed. More importantly, IMHO, is the use of hard pipe over flex pipe. The only place I find flex to be a suitable material is in attached gunite spas and portable spas. In an attached gunite spa, it's encased in gunite. It should be connected the main runs to the equipment with hard pipe as soon as is practical.

Flex is susceptible collapsing on the suction side, rock piercings on the return side, and termites will eat it in wooded areas trying to get at the water they hear/feel running through the pipe..

I like the variable speed pumps but it is still in my 1,2,3 order of preferred manufacturers. Pentair, Jandy, Hayward. Being that a big part of my business is repair and augment and not just renovations, I will use all three brands or may introduce another brand of equipment, if it is in the customer's interest.

Go backs are costly. I spend the extra time to get my end right so I don't have to go back. If I do, it's always done with a smile, respect, humility, and courtesy. New customers are expensive to acquire. I do everything that is reasonable to keep my existing customers from being someone's new customers. So far, it is working.

New paver decks are not what I do. He is a list of companies I have found that do superior work...

Scott
cascade
14 years ago
I think this question relates closely to my thread "a question for the pool buyers". To me an educated client is a certain client. The more questions you ask, the more I'm being separated from the competition. Any contractor who takes offense to those questions is not worth dealing with.
ccipriano
14 years ago
Try Finding a certified building professional in your area.

The CBP Certified Building ProfessionalÂ® credential is awarded by the Association of Pool and Spa Professionals to swimming pool builders who have demonstrated a high level of knowledge in swimming pool and spa construction by successfully passing a rigorous standardized written examination and meeting ongoing continuing education requirements.

The reason a good pool builder will charge extra for pavers around swimming pools is because he knows he will have to do extra compacting over pipes and any voids behind the bond beam. Most landscapers do not take this into account.

Here is a handy contractor checklist which will help you screen pool builders and landscape contractors.
http://www.plantnj.com/images/layout/featured_page/challenge/contractor_challenge.pdf

Here is a link that might be useful: Pools & Landscapes
fighting_irish
14 years ago
ccipriano,

I have never seen you bring anything useful to this furum only spam...And yes linking to your website is spam.

You might want to read the rules of this form before you submit your next post.
poolguynj
14 years ago
Having a CBP is a nice Marketing tool but does nothing to ensure good practices are used. Nor does having it all done in-house.

In many markets, subs are a must. Being a sub doesn't mean losing control or inferior workmanship.

The primary must be on top of who does what, when, why, and how. This is what he is paid for. There are many masons, hardscapers and lanscapers that understand the special needs of the area around the pool.

There are many primaries that don't but know who to call and trust. There are also those that don't give rats pattuty about anything beyond the next check.

Your checklist does have some very points. Years in business, BBB, suits, insurances, warranties, etc... are all great points that a homeowner needs to think about. By putting that in front of them may jar something.

Your "useful link " at the end is something we try to discourage. It's what we call spamming the board. OTH, your continued contributions as a builder are welcome and very much appreciated. The area you work have a very diverse landscape with many different types of conditions ranging from mountains to valleys and lots in between. This lends itself to finding some very unique engineering solutions.

Enjoy the weather today. While you are getting snow and blizzard conditions, I am getting rain this time till about 3pm since I am right on the coast.

Scott
ollieboy
Original Author
14 years ago
Hi Everyone,

All great points and I feel good knowing that it was okay to ask a lot of questions (we did ask quite a bit over several days). Like I mentioned, this was the only time something negative happened as all were wonderful to talk to and very helpful. I always give people the benefit of the doublt and tell myself that something distracting must have been going on with them that day and I took the brunt of it but even that said, I don't continue with them (or forget). I believe they are a good builder and good people as from what others say so I would never say a bad thing about thier company but its more of the personal experiece I had.

Well its down to 2 really great companies that seem to mesh well with us and assuming we can come to terms and figure out on our own what our "must haves" are on a limited budget , we'll keeping moving forward.

Great advice and as always, thanks!
huskyridor
14 years ago
Chris,

I'll 2nd both Scott and David's replies to you.

I've been on this board for probably the longest term of the builders among us.
I got booted off after many years under my old name Huskyrider simply because my email was visible in my Bio.
I've never had a problem working my replies to not come across as spam. Yours is visible right beside your screen name, you should remove it ASAP.
Your contributions here are welcomed by the membership.
And, trust me on this, you'll get members contacting your office for quotations just because of your interaction on the board. They know how to find you, it ain't that hard.

I've been doing pool forums since '03 when I started construction of my pool at the new house.
I'd been doing some racing forums for a few years before and wanted to find a forum to post my build on.
My progress was shown like many do with their's here.

I find participation enjoyable and the membership grateful for the perspective of an industry insider.
My opinion only, be yourself, provide sound advice, don't bash others replies even if you don't agree, and have a good time.

Welcome aboard, I look forward to your input!!!

See ya,
Kelly

I
lbridges
14 years ago
Quote: "Try Finding a certified building professional in your area.

The CBP Certified Building ProfessionalÂ® credential is awarded by the Association of Pool and Spa Professionals..."

If I may, this is not, by itself, a good indicator.

In my area there is a well known pool builder that has CBP accreditation, and whom I contacted when I began the process. However, it didn't take long to eliminate them when I could not find a single customer that did not have a horror with the PB.

Two guys in my shop were horrified I had even called the company - both told me the company president cursed them using MF and similar sorts of words when the company's shoddy work was challenged. One guy showed me the paperwork from a civil suit in which the homeowner "won" even though it cost time, some money, and a ton of aggravation to get his pool completed (by another company).

So, is it worth something to have it - my guess is yes, but please don't let it substitute for a healthy Caveat Emptor attitude.
renovxpt
14 years ago
Any question from a potential buyer is an opportunity to sell yourself and your product. If they didn't have questions they wouldn't need you.
poolguynj
14 years ago
I think we all agree.

Irish, lets cut Chris some slack. He has a wealth of experience that the community can benefit from. He has stopped posting his web site and I am sure he will soon pull is visible email too. He isn't a typical spammer that we all hold in low regard.

Scott
fighting_irish
14 years ago
Your right poolguynj, I did lash out at chris without giving him an opportunity to present his knowledge.

Welcome Chris I look forward to your added insight on this forum. We all know that it is important to have quality builders and services tech's from all regions on here. If not only to provide good solid advise to the posters here but in some cases we can learn from each other.

Thanks,

David
renovxpt
14 years ago
Fighting Irish, I disagree, you were not out of line at all. Chris is very intentional in his spamming of this board. He did it a month or so ago and was asked to stop at that time.

The professionals on this forum respect the terms they agreed to and behave accordingly.
poolguynj
14 years ago
I don't know about whether Internet Explorer has this issue but since I run Linux and nothing on my system is Microsoft, I can't send a message through the forum to you. I can send one to Chris though. GardenWeb must have changed something.

So I guess until they fix that or if that is no by design, Chris's having his email in his name is kosher. If that is by design, that makes this forum a spammable address hunting ground. That is not good.

If a member can't msg me through GW, I have an issue with that. I'll bet I am not alone in that department. Did a potential client ever contact you through GW? Do you like it that way or would you prefer to be able to have your email address available for all, including the unregistered address harvesters to see?

Scott
ccipriano
14 years ago
Excuse my inexperience, The Gardenweb setup requested my Email address so I posted it, renovxpt sent me an email on
Sun, Jan 24, 2010 7:24 pm Subject: Re: Garden web.
I may or may not have removed my links, I wasn't sure of his intentions so I may have disregarded him. Moving ahead I will not include the link to my site and I believe my email has been removed.(This is the first try)

More importantly there are bad apples in every bunch, I think we can all agree on that. My Staff spends many hours getting certification point for both the CBP and LA (landscape architecture). In my experience the APSP and the CBP has provided us with valuable information on the latest safety regulation and consumer safety literature. We utilize this to protect our clients and better inform the public. I am sure there are firms that just utilize the CBP as nothing more than a marketing strategy and that's a shame.
Chris Cipriano
poolguynj
14 years ago
Chris,

There is a Google bot here. I wouldn't be surprised if there were others too. It will eventually harvest your email and you'll get spammed.

The solution I found was to simply enable in your profile for messages to be sent via the Garden Web. This way, they can't harvest and spam. You will still get private messages but they will more likely to be qualified opportunities, at least I have found that to be the case.

I am glad you came back. I was beginning to think that you would feel unwelcome. That is not the case.

I am 100% with you in the training and it's importance for your team. It is a shame that many builders use certain certifications strictly for marketing and let what was taught go out the window. I also like vendor specific trainings. Little things come out there that aren't always common knowledge that may sway a "What is the best recommendation for this customer" decision.

Again, welcome.

Scott
sharon2975
14 years ago
Scott, I could not agree more with you on the vendor training. We had an endless pool fastlane installed in our new pool and an electric cover. Due to the lack of knowledge on the part of the PB his "superintendent" put in the bracket for the Fastlane both crooked and too high, in addition to doing the piping incorrectly. Needless to tell you our cover would not close. We are now in the process of having another PB who has taken the Endless pool training, rip out the side of our pool and reinstall the fastlane. This is costing us. We have filed a complaint with the BBB. Our Pool Build was a nightmare. If I ever do it again I will defiantly hire the PB who has the most training on what is going into my pool. investing the time and expense for the training should be a big plus to any future customer and help separate the PROs from the rest of the herd.
ccipriano
14 years ago
Thank you Scott,
We have been extremely busy which is a good problem to have.
I have people out on vacation so I've been involved with projects and building a new green house on my farm and unloading trailers of stone from South America :)
I haven't been on GW for about a week, I can see I was sorely missed!
I try to pass on my experience, strength and hope! Sometimes it might be a quick cut and paste about the associations I belong to and what that association or certification has given me. Sometimes I have more time and get more detailed but I've never been accused of pontificating. The links saved me the effort of typing. I've learned that's not appropriate and will try to be better GW member.

My contact info doesn't seem to appear in my profile so I've decided to leave my email until GW has fixed the issue.

Regards,
Chris Cipriano

Asking a PB Quetions During Bidding Process

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