Based on the info you provided I'd say a 2,5 cu ft softener at 48k using 6 lbs of salt per cu ft of resin (15 lbs for 2.5 cu ft of resin) and it would regenerate about every 7 days.

Ideally you want a softener to regenerate every 6-8 days. Longer than that and the resin life can be compromised and the resin can channel.

On a well I'd shoot for 7-8 days max.

Have you had your well tested for bacteria recently?

Any softener can use NaCl or KCl. The specific gravity of KCL is different than that of NaCl and at your hardness would need a slightly different "salt" dose to correct for that. In short you'd use more KCl.

RO units work and play well with either KCL or NaCl.

When you plumb in the softener install a 3 ball valve bypass along with the factory bypass that should be included with the control valve on your softener. That way, if the factory bypass fails or leaks and needs to be repaired you'll still have water to the house while waiting for parts.

In your softener shopping what control valves have you considered?

Yes, there is a HUGE downside to purchasing an oversized softener. It's actually worse than purchasing a slightly undersized softener. Home softeners have very simplistic water distribution. If your typical flow rate is too low for the softener, the water will trickle through only a small portion of the resin bed (called channeling) and you will have hard water all the time.

3.5 cu ft is way too big for your household. I would err on the smaller side, particularly since your household will lose two people within two years.

Hi Alice,

Agreed. I was thinking size the softener correctly for the 4 people the house has now and then short salt the softener when 2 people leave. That way, if they sell the house the softener is adequate for the intended number of people.

Thanks for the responses.

I'm begining to understand about the resin. But why 2.5 cu ft? Why not 2 or 3? How is that decided? Most vendors don't offer resin expansion options and most seem to include about 1.5-2 cu ft in 48K-64K systems. 48K typically includes 1.5 cu ft. 64K generally includes 2 cu ft and so on.

The math I'm using is: 4 people x 80 gallons/day x 25 gpg x 8 days = 64,000 grains

To get that down to 48K would assume using only 60 gallons/day/person. I don't know how much water we actually use, but I'm sure we average more than 4 showers/baths per day so it seems like a lot. Isn't 75 or 80 gallons the national average? If we size for 80 gal/day/person but only use 60, a 64K grain system could go 10-11 days between regenerations, everything else being equal. Is that too long? I like having the capacity to soften 80 gal/day/person if needed but I don't want to cause myself problems when our family size drops by half. OTOH, a 48K system at 80 gal/day/person would regenerate at 5-6 days now or 11-12 days with two of us. That, too, sounds like a reasonable option. Yes, when we sell the house one day, the next owners will likely be a family of 3-5 again.

The systems I've considered use either a Clack WS1 or one of the Fleck 5600SXT or 2510SXT valves. Clack seems to be offered as a user friendly choice that's newer and perhaps improved over the Fleck designs. Although I've also heard that the Clack valves are noisier than the Flecks.

Funny you should mention the bypass plumbing. I bought everything to do that but in my haste I only soldered in two of the valves in and out of the softener and forgot to put in the bypass valve. I'll fix that when I cut off the copper loop and solder on the appropriate threaded connectors for the softener.

I did have the county health department test my water about a year ago. I can't put my hands on the report at the moment but I know that they found no problems with the water. I just can't recall how they described the bacteria test results.

The only reason I've considered KCl is that I know what NaCl feels like. I'd like to try KCl to see if it's worth the extra cost to us.

80 gpd per person is a high estimate with the norm being 75 and a more realistic number is actually 60.

Different softener sellers show different capacities for the same resin amount because they can choose the salt dose to use in the calculations. Advertising a higher capacity for their 1 cu ft softener over the other guy's is misleading when one is using 6 lbs/cu ft of salt and the other is using 15 lbs/ cu ft of salt. You won't realize that till after you've installed that softener and you spend half your week adding salt to the brine tank.

Two of the aspects of determining the volume of resin are the SFR of the resin and the K required to treat the water. The higher the volume of resin the higher the SFR and the larger the resin tank that is required.

I'm better at how questions than why questions so I apologize if I fall short explaining the philosophy of sizing a softener.

Regarding the bypass... it's not funny I mention it because most DIYers forget it entirely.

Fleck control valves have been around for a very long time and have proved themselves in the field all over the world for decades and decades and decades. There are more Fleck control valves softening water WORLDWIDE than all other control valves from all other manufacturers added together.

Perhaps when the Clack has been in the field a couple decades it can back up the marketing claims Clack sellers are making for it now now. If the best close a Clack seller has is that anyone with a pair of channel locks can repair it in 10 minutes then I want a Fleck! For me, field history talks.

12 days between regens is asking for trouble but do what you want.

If I were on a well I'd get routine water tests for bacteria.

Okay, let's split the difference and call it 70 gallons/day. With four of us, we need to remove 7,000 grains of hardness/day (4 x 70 x 25). With two, it's 3,500 (2 x 70 x 25).

If I keep the regens to 8 days max, two of us will need a 28,000 grain softener (2 x 70 x 25 x 8). With four of us, that softener will regenerate every four days max (28,000 / 4 / 70 / 25). Is that right?

How much resin would you recommend for such a system? Will the same amount of resin work for four people now and two later? (Although the next buyers would be regenerating every 3-4 days again.)

Is the Fleck 5600SXT as good as the 2510SXT?

Thanks for your help with this.

I've given you my advice and that's what I recommend. I have no interest other than trying to help.

If you shop around you'll find some softener seller that will agree with you to get the sale and then you get what you get.

The 2510 is a heavier duty valve then a 5600. Not necessarily better. The 5600 is a very common residential control valve. The SXT is the latest REV in electronics and the SE electronics proved to be very reliable.

Please let us know what you decide and how it works out.

Wow. I didn't mean to offend you.

So buy a 48K system with 2.5 lbs of resin and a Fleck valve. Got it. Thank you.

Here is a link that might be useful: EPA: Indoor Water Use in the United States

No offense taken. My fingers get tired typing the same answers to the same questions over and over so after I've said my piece I'm reluctant to argue.

Low flow toilets, low flow shower heads, low flow faucets, bottled water, and the new tech super efficient washers have cut into the accepted numbers of daily water use by a lot. 60 gpd per person seems to be a more common 21st century number.

Just a reminder... try not to refer to softener sizing by 48k or 32k. That's when you run into the marketing hype and different salt doses yielding different K. Refer to the volume of resin and then there's no salesperson wiggle room. You order a 1 cube softener and you get a 1 cube softener.

So, if you've decided on a 2,5 cu ft softener you set it at 48k using 6 lbs of salt per cu ft of resin (15 lbs for 2.5 cu ft of resin) and it would regenerate about every 7 days. If there's a calendar day override set that at 8 days.

You should use a little over a bag of salt a month. If you want to use KCl increase your (gross) salt dose from 15 lbs by about 10% and monitor your hardness. If the water holds soft (0 hardness)all the way till regeneration that's fine. If it goes hard before regen then increase the KCL dose another 5% until the water holds at 0 hardness all the way till regeneration.

With a well it not a bad idea to buy some hardness test strips and check every month or so. Wells vary and with an electronic valve it's easy to adjust for hardness variance.

If you're buying online don't order on the web site. Call them on the phone and ask questions. If they treat you well on the phone that's a good indicator how they'll treat you after the sale because buying long distance there is no service to speak of but you'll need them to warranty parts if you have a problem. You are the service tech.

You might want to look around for a local independent water treatment pro. They will supply industry standard softeners and usually not much more expensive than online and you'll get a parts and labor warranty... worth checking out.

OK. Time to weight in on this lengthy debate. Clack makes the best water softener control valve in the market today. I have one in my home, we sell it in our retail stores and it has become the control of choice for a lot of water conditioning dealers and on the Internet as well. To order a Fleck or Clack unit and save hundreds of $$ by having an experienced plumber or water conditioning professional install it for you, go here > > http://www.affordablewater.us/index.aspx

Thanks

Here is a link that might be useful: AffordableWater.us

justthefactsmam,

Got anything substantive to add to this thread other than a self-serving sales pitch?

I've been a little preoccupied with another project, but I do have another question. I'm not trying to debate or question any advice given. I'm just trying to be an educated consumer before I spend my money.

I understand now about the volume of media versus the advertised 64K or 80K grain capabilities of a softener. And I'll accept that 2.5 cubic feet of media is the right amount. It appears that a 2.5 cube softener usually comes with a 13" diameter mineral tank. Yet the Fleck 5600 is advertised in Fleck's own literature as being usable on tanks up to 12". So do I look for or insist upon 2.5 cu ft of media in a 12" tank, use the Fleck 5600 valve on a 13" tank, or look at a different valve suitable for use with a 13" tank?

It appears that if I ask for 2.5 cu ft of media and a Fleck 5600SXT valve, I can get that with a 13" diameter tank but it's contrary to Fleck's recommendation and I wonder about liability and warranty issues if the valve is used on the wrong size tank.

Thanks.

Raymond,

You've been paying attention... I left that fact about the 5600 and 13" tanks out to see if you'd catch it and you did.

That's why I said not to order online and to call... too see if the online seller would catch it.

The reputable sites I watch don't list a 5600 valve with any tank larger than 12" so they are aware of that limitation. A boiler room operation only interested in an easy and quick internet sale might not be.

For your needs you'll want a 2510SXT.

Here's the 2510 service manual... click here

Here's the SXT programming manual... click here

Here are simpler and easier to understand SXT programming instructions... click here

Very good, thank you. I talked to one of the online sellers of the 5600 with 13" and 14" tanks. He told me I must have old Fleck information but the Fleck site still says 12" max, so I wasn't impressed with the answer I got. It's a shame since they're one of only a few with a BBB A+ rating and no complaints.

In the instructions you posted, when setting the size of the softener in step 8, do I use 48K regardless of the size of the tank and the advertised system size? Also, do I use 48,000 grains in step 17 to set the refill time? I ask because when I buy a 2.5 cube softener, it will surely be called a "80,000 grain softener" even though your recommendation is to program it like a 48,000 softener.

The 2510 is getting a little pricey at close to $900. I wish I had a way to use the more affordable 5600. But it sounds like my only viable option is to use the 2510 with the larger tank. Just so I understand the ramifications, the largest size tank that can be used with the 5600 valve is 12". That translates to a 2 cube softener. Would that require more frequent regeneration or more salt per regeneration or either or both? I was hoping to keep this in the $600-$700 range.

Consider that you might have gotten the "newbie" on the phone. Call back and ask the same question of another rep and see if they give you the same answer.

Fleck says the 5600 is limited to a 12" tank so no sales person gets to change the specs.

Step 8 = 48,000

Step 12 = 8 (days calendar override)

Step 17 = In order to program this step you need to know the BLFC size. If the BLFC is .5 gal/min, which is common, then each gallon = 3 lbs of salt. At 1/2 gpm, 5 gallons = 10 minutes so set step 17 at 12 minutes (fudge factor or reserve, whatever definition makes you happy).

"I ask because when I buy a 2.5 cube softener, it will surely be called a "80,000 grain softener" even though your recommendation is to program it like a 48,000 softener"... for the LAST TIME, if you refer to the softener as a 2.5 cu ft softener then so will the sales person and there will be NO MISUNDERSTANDING about what you are ordering.

A 2.5 cube softener can be marketed as an 80k softener but you'll be using 15 lbs of salt per cu ft to get that 80k.

That's 37.5 pounds of salt each regeneration versus getting 48k at 6 lbs per cu ft or 15 pounds of salt each regeneration out of the same 2.5 cu ft of resin with the same SFR.

In the simplest terms... the K, or hardness removal, capacity of a softener is determined by the volume of resin and the salt dose used to regenerate that volume of resin NOT THE SIZE OF THE TANK. A correctly sized resin tank's function is to allow enough room (freeboard) above the resin for the resin to move during regeneration.

You water conditions and water usage dictate the correct size of the softener. The cost of the correctly sized softener is the cost.

You can change the other variables and get a smaller softener using the 5600... stop using so much water or move to a place that doesn't have 25g hard water.

I've shown you how to correctly size the softener using only 15 lbs/regen so the salt savings alone will cover the increased cost of the correctly sized softener and what those savings don't cover you can amortize over the 10, 15, or 20 years that softener will serve you.

Money is tight and very few have any to burn. You're wise to treat your water because not doing it can get more expensive down the road in plumbing and appliance/fixture repair.

If you just can't swing the 2510SXT @ $885 delivered then click here and buy a Clack for not that much less.

And all this knowledge cost you what? Invoice to follow.

I've been a little preoccupied with another project, but I do have another question. I'm not trying to debate or question any advice given. I'm just trying to be an educated consumer before I spend my money.

I understand now about the volume of media versus the advertised 64K or 80K grain capabilities of a softener. And I'll accept that 2.5 cubic feet of media is the right amount. It appears that a 2.5 cube softener usually comes with a 13" diameter mineral tank. Yet the Fleck 5600 is advertised in Fleck's own literature as being usable on tanks up to 12". So do I look for or insist upon 2.5 cu ft of media in a 12" tank, use the Fleck 5600 valve on a 13" tank, or look at a different valve suitable for use with a 13" tank?

It appears that if I ask for 2.5 cu ft of media and a Fleck 5600SXT valve, I can get that with a 13" diameter tank but it's contrary to Fleck's recommendation and I wonder about liability and warranty issues if the valve is used on the wrong size tank.

Thanks.

Raymond,

We covered this before. If you carefully read all the posts in this thread you'll find all your questions asked and answered.

" It appears that a 2.5 cube softener usually comes with a 13" diameter mineral tank". That is BECAUSE 2.5 cu ft of resin requires a 13x54 tank in order to provide the required freeboard (empty space) for the resin regenerate properly.

"... the Fleck 5600 is advertised in Fleck's own literature as being usable on tanks up to 12"".

A Fleck 5600 can not be used on a tank with a diameter larger than 12". It is not a warranty or liability issue it is Fleck's specification. Do you just not believe Fleck's specifications for its own product? What is the problem?

"So do I look for or insist upon 2.5 cu ft of media in a 12" tank... " Only if you want to have problems.

"... use the Fleck 5600 valve on a 13" tank...". Only if you want to have problems

"... or look at a different valve suitable for use with a 13" tank?". Look 5 posts up

Sorry. I was just checking to see if anyone else chimed in and in the process, accidentally backed into my last post and reposted it. Wasn't meaning to ask the same questions all over again.