Why not use a crate? You can strap it down so it will stay secure.

There are several styles but you may want to invest in one of these if you don't want a crate.

Here is a link that might be useful: dog safety

Take your dog for a nice long walk before going anywhere in the van and a good hint for taking your dog to classes is the same thing, run your dog before hand. It is much easier to train a tired dog than a hyper one.
Make certain you take charge of your dog, make certain your dog is not hyper when you hook it up for the walk, your dog should be in a sit stay calm position before your click up and walk out the door. You go out the door first, have your dog sit and stay every couple of feet, that way when you get into the van you can command your dog to sit and stay there as well. Work on this as much as you can, sit stay and down should be practiced whenever you can. You can also provide a treat filled KONG while the dog is in the car, providing a bit more distraction while in the car, good luck and good for you for going to school. I hope it works out well for everyone

Thank you Mazer. I really appreciate your response, but Blaze failed Dog Obedience this last session, so we are going to another session that they offer for half price to the ones that didn't make it the first time around.

I need to secure him in the Van. That is my problem.

He is a Golden Retriever that is almost a year old. When he is tired, he does not cooperate, but I think your theory is good. He is very strong, and super energetic. He heels well, and sits well. He usually will sit for the one minute even though he did not do it during the test. But he never made it through the 3 minute down. As you know I could not correct him or say anything. He just decided he had been down long enough, and got up.

He can get hurt in the van if I am not careful. During the first session my husband went with me, and took our other Golden. I would like to take Blaze alone this time since it is rather boring for my other dog. He can be a lot for me to handle, and I have read that a strong dog can break a cage. I am trying to find a seat belt/harness that someone likes. He will only sit stay if he wants to. He has not been easy to train. He wants to play with all people and all dogs. He passed Puppy Kindergarten because they all passed. The school has solid rules for passing Basic Obedience, and he must have done one of the stays.

I have the world of respect for those trainers in the Obedience School. We have both learned so much from them.

Sammy

Ya hear that everybody, the dog failed. :-)

Behavior in the car is something that can take a long time to get where you want it. One of the tools you can use to suggest a proper place to sit and how to behave is a portable kennel or one of those soft crates. The reason I suggest a soft crate is because they are easy and lightweight to take in and out. Rewarding with food treats is a great way to tell a sitting-still dog that they are doing the right thing. The long walk or other means of excercise before the trip is really a good idea too.

There is a seatbelt harness that I use with one dog who usually sits in the front seat of my truck however this had to be earned by demosntrating good behavior. At one point, he would not sit still and it was possible to get out of the seatbelt harness very easily and only moments after putting it on.

Sort of like the sit stays, you have to consistently, 100% of the time sit the dog back down after breaking the stay, the kennel does this for you.

If the seat belt harness doesn't work, then I would use a crate.

But usually just a simple sit and stay works for my dogs. If they move or get restless, I correct them and get them back in their stay position.

Sounds like Blaze is trying to run things. If he is not sitting and staying for however long you need him to he is not taking you seriously which means he thinks he is the leader of your pack. You need to reprimand him, and stop letting him get away with things. practicing the sit stay and have your dog stay in a calm state while you putter around your house or yard is going to be the way to get past all this. So until you can come up with a grate which can be placed between the seat and the back of the car (be sure and provide water for your dog no matter how short a ride) or a crate, teaching him to sit and stay is the only way to get around this. Question - when you have your dog in a sit stay position (outside of the van) how long does he stay? Does he start whining, barking or howling if he has to stay too long? or does he just get up and move when he feels like it? When you walk your dog, do you allow him to pull you on the leash? Or does he stop at every bush and sniff and mark it along the walk? These things all kind of add up to you needing to be more forceful in your attitude, thinking and demeanor and by this I dont mean get abusive, I just mean get tough. When your dog moves during a sit stay, correct him, if he starts talking back, correct him. If he pee's on every bush while your walking, pick up the pace. Place the collar up around his ear area like you see dog show people doing in the ring, have your dog walk beside you not in front of you or yanking you all over the place, after the first couple of minutes, unless he needs to make a dump, stop him from sniffing every bush by giving him a walk or heel command. Dont take any BS from him. Dont let your dog bully you around. Try not to be intimidated by his size ad remember you are the boss, you control his life, not the other way around.

I use the Midwest collapsable side by side RV/Minivan crates. They are light enough that I can remove them easily if I need to make a trip to the lumber store. All my dogs ride in a crate. I tried one of the soft crates once, once was too much. The dog and crate were all over the back of the van, even though it was tied down.

Here is a link that might be useful: crate

I am worried about the crates because I have heard of dogs tearing them up, and getting injured.

I would never never put a dog in the front seat of my Van. The harness is only so good. I have been looking at car harnesses, but do not see any yet that look any better than what I have.

Blaze failed Obedience School because he refused to stay down for 3 minutes, and refused to sit for one minute. He had been sitting for ages, but decided not to do it. THerefore we are returning with others whose dogs also failed so that they can learn to perform better.

He can heel just fine. He is a whiz at "about turns" and the left and right circles. He waited while I walked across the room, then came right to me and sat. He just does not want to remain down on command. Since we have signed up for another 10 week session, I did not ask anyone here how to make him stay down, because I don't think you can help me more than the school. We had two instructors for 7 big dogs and their leaders. The school is great, and Blaze is doing a great job.

I know what you are saying when you say not to take any BS from my dog, but frankly since he isn't a year old, I can if I think it is best for my dog. I adore him, and really will do as I please. If I choose to shrug it off, and think that my energetic dog just doesn't want to stay down for 3 minutes, that is my problem.

I teach 16 year old kids, and know that you cannot win when you challenge them. They may let you think that you have won, but more than likely they will show you that they are in charge. The best weapon they have is to quit. Dogs can be the same. A good handler has to know when to be firm, and when to give the dog a break. Blah blah blah.
On another forum people have talked about how the large dogs really tear up cages, and do it quickly. In doing so, they can quickly become injured. Right now I am thinking of putting a strap around the back of the front seat - on the seat part, and hooking his harness to the strap. That way I am in full view, but he can also see out the window. If I am not careful with a harness, the dogs can come free.

I would love to have other suggestions, and do appreciate the responses I have received even though I have debated with them. I am not afraid of his size, but he can hurt himself if I am not careful.

Sammy

Oh great. Someone had tgo come along with that pack leader horsecrap and confuse everyone.
Sammy, go get a crate or kennel. Don't buy a cheap no-name made in china, get a midwest or petmate they're indestructible and will last forever. Let the crate do the "reprimanding" for you. If the roof should cave in you will be right there and you can pull over on the side of the road and let the dog out if that happens. But it won't. Eventually your dog is going to just lay in there. When they do, reward. The dog will get the idea, goldens are very smart dogs.

And a sit-stay for 3 minutes is great for an adnvanced class or competition. For basic class, if your dog doesn't sit for 3 minutes, that's nothing to be ahsamed of. What kind of boot camp class do you go to friend?

Um, kids and dogs are NOT the same. So do be careful there. Dogs aren't devious or spiteful, and if they don't perform well it's because they haven't been trained well enough, and they don't quite understand. It's all about practice, practice, practice, and you do most of the work at home. Just keep going with the positive reinforcement, and you and your dog will be successful. No one failed, you both learned a lot in the first class and need to keep working on it. Obedience classes aren't for the dog, they're for the trainer.

I would go on to say to that obedience training is MORE for the person than the dog. I would also say that dogs are not children, they are not people... dogs respond to leadership and in the absence of leadership, the dog will take charge.

Sammy, are they talking about the soft sided crates or the metal ones? I just can't picture a dog tearing up a metal one like the Midwest brand unless it is destructive in the crate to begin with. The soft sided ones I would trust my Chow in but not the Shepherd. I know tons of people that secure the dogs in crates in their vans or SUV's

Lisa

fwiw we trained 3 150+lb mastiffs to ride in our car by having them get used to lying down and staying in the car without driving anywhere. They were rewarded with food treats for obeying "Down" and "stay" and got used to the car as a place to lie in and then get treats in.

From that point it was a fairly easy transition to having them maintain down and stay while the car was moving. Now they know that if they ride in the car they lie down and get treats at the end of the ride.

BTW, I've never heard of a dog destroying a good quality crate. (We have three that have stood up to over ten years' wear and tear from big, active, and powerful dogs. They were quite expensive, but worth every penny.)

Good luck, whatever you decide.

I've seen a few that dogs destroyed. They were all Midwest and if I remember right all the dogs that did it were Huskies.

Lisa

thanks, dobesrule, good to know. Our 50-lb sheltie twisted the bars of a cheaper crate when she got annoyed. We got a bigger, heavier one, not Midwest, and she couldn't damage it. Guess we have just been lucky with mastiffs, although we have always kept crates with open doors in the house and trained them to get their treats there. (Perhaps that's why they don't object when/if we have to close the crate doors.)

Just to clarify, there is a difference between destroying a crate and having it collapse on a dog unexpectedly. My terrier mix chewed through a steel cable oncein a matter of minutes when guest were over. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he could find his way out of a locked crate but the difference is the crate has to be a magical and comforting place to the dog. This takes time.

Blaze had to sit for one minute and stay down for three.He had always done the sit, but got up during the test. I am not sorry that he didn't pass the test since we have another series of lessons for half the price. It turns out that we will have the same trainer, and that will be great. It is a large school - at least to me. THere are about 5 rings with many classes.

We did not go to the graduation even though we were assured that Blaze would get what all the other dogs got. It would have been 2 hours, and that was too much. In the mail we got a certificate for the most improved trainer and dog. You are so right that the dog does not have problems, it is the trainer. I was not very tough in the beginning because I didn't want to be a bully, and felt that the dog would rebel, and not be as good of a dog. Finally the trainer and his wife asked to walk with Blaze. (not together, but at different times) She was older like me, and I saw how when she said "sit", she never accepted anything but a "sit". I often would allow him to walk a few steps, then I would command a "sit" again, and he would do it. She struggled, and wrestled him into a "sit" or "down" whatever she commanded. She also made him stay.

Once they walked with him, he began to obey them, and was a much better dog. I am writing this now for anyone who might not believe in schools. I have taught most of my adult life, but have never had such a spirited puppy before. I am so happy that we have been able to have the advice of such educated people.

We travel for 10 minutes to the Vet or to the Dog School, so have ordered the Champion car gear to hook them in, and not the crates. The crates are about $150 plus a pad. For two large dogs that is obviously well over $300 for a short trip. I am going to continue taking my husband until Blaze is able to be more in control.

I have been so pleased with his progress that the other day I tried to use a Gentle Leader instead of his prong collar. That is all we had used on all the other dogs for years, and I thought he would like to look like his brother. He began leaping and jumping, pulling almost somersaulting. He jumped on me, and I could barely get him to stay down. I had to call to my husband to hold him while I went for the other collar. As much control as I have now, he is still that spirited puppy who could become seriously injured quickly.

You are all great, and I agree with almost all of you. I had considered going ahead with the crate even though it was much more than I wanted to spend, but we couldn't ever use it at home. Blaze would follow Ricky into that crate in a second, and the two dogs in a crate could be quite dangerous.

I took a good look at the crates tonight, and he couldn't hurt those things.Mastiffs are big dogs. They are popular in our school as are most other dogs, I guess.

Thanks for reading and helping. I do so much appreciate what all of you have said. My days go fast and are quite full anymore, but you have helped me so much.

SAmmy

"I thought he would like to look like his brother."

Do dogs really care about that sort of thing?

"I tried to use a Gentle Leader instead of his prong collar"

I'm suspicious of the quality of any trainer or school who would use one of these collars.

Why, Cynthia? Older woman vs. large spazz of a puppy? Seems like some leverage might be necessary for the human to be the boss. If they're used properly, they're not harmful tools... I suppose, like anything else, there is the potential for abuse....

I resisted the use of the prong collar for quite awhile. One of the trainers pulled one out to show me how they work. He looked at my dog, and said that the harness was lying on his chest, and that action itself encouraged him to pull. Tug of war is one of a dog's favorite activities, and I am playing tug of war with the harness when I pull it. The prongs are like fingers. The choker collars are collars they do not like to use on large dogs, but the prong collars are like fingers that stop the dog. They understand it, and respond well to it. He has never even once indicated that it hurt or bothered him. If he were to be uncomfortable, he would try to sit or lie down, but instead he seems perfectly happy as do all the other dogs.

This is a situation where I trust the trainers - especially in a school that has a very good reputation, and is recommended by my Vet who also has a good reputation.

I love my dog with all my heart, and would never hurt him. The greatest harm done would be for me to try to control him on my own when there are professionals around to help me. I agree with others who say that the dog is not human. I don't really understand this since I love him so much, but I do see that my dog is responding well with the training. I also like it that since he did not pass the Beginner Obedience, he can take Advance Beginner Obedience for half price to learn what he has not yet learned. The only dogs allowed in the Advanced Beginner classes are those who either did not pass the Beginner class or those who passed, but their owners want them to take it before continuing to the next level.

Most top compitition trainers use prong collars. IF they are used correctly and fitted correctly they don't hurt the dog at all and you actully have to apply less force with a prong than with other collars. You don't get top caliber work from a dog that has been mishandled or doesn't like something because it hurts.

Sammy try looking at a Petedge or Ryans catalog. I think it's Ryan's that I got yesterday that had a 48 inch crate for seventy eight bucks. I've been looking at them because Jerri is going to meed a bigger one. You can do a web search and find them, I think it's Ryan's pet supply.

Lisa

You know some owners perhaps are struggling and have a tought case on their hands and need to use a prong collar or perhaps they have a breed that reprimands work on.

I think for most people, the owners need to learn the art of persuasion. Your dog needs to be persuaded and shown what's in it for them.

A helpful tip for teaching dogs to sit and stay: I will work with them while I am watching TV. If I am watching a show, when a commercial comes on, I put my dog on a sit and stay. I make him stay for the entire commercial. When the show resumes, I release the command. Then repeat for every commercial. Its an easy way to practice stay with your dog.

JPW, haven't you read the thread? OP's dog can sit stay for nearly 3 minutes at age 1. You can't be consistent in your training of the sit stay if you're trying to drive down the road at 60 mph.

Huh!? Where did they ever say he does a 3 min sit?
Read this quote quirky, taken from OP's second post....... "He usually will sit for the one minute even though he did not do it during the test. But he never made it through the 3 minute down."

I don't understand how to persuade a dog. There are no incentives. He has toys and food. Sorry, Joepyeweed, but the sit during a commercial is the same thing. What if he doesn't want to? I want him to sit, and he wants to play with my toes. I put on shoes, and he unties the shoe strings. I firmly say "NO" and he barks at me. He is a puppy.

Once we begin the formal school mode whether at home or at school, he becomes a much better dog. I never leave the training collar on him, and my idea of relaxation is not to sit on a dog during the commercials to make him sit. He will just lie down.

Lisa, and some others, I feel like you have worked with dogs like mine before. He is a great dog, but an eternal puppy. I am going to look for that catalog right away.

Again, thanks for the replies.

SAmmy

Sammy if you said your dog was a white German Shepherd I would tell you I have his younger sister. She is very smart, can be taught things often with just showing her three or four times, is incredibly active and playful and also very strong willed and determined to get her way. She jumps the loveseat from over the back to land on the cushions, I have plucked her out of the open trunk of my car and caught her standing in the middle of my antique dining room table.
There is a book you might find helpful that I have been reading. It's called Steppin Up to success by Terri Arnold. It's actually a series and is geared toward competitive obedience but the first volume deals mostly with building the relationship between yourself and your dog and learning to focus the dogs attention on you then it goes into the novice exercises. Each step is very clearly broken down into easy parts then you put the whole thing together. Unless you have a desire to compete or just enjoy teaching Blaze stuff the other two books in the series may not have any interest for you.

Lisa

I think they may be related - but Blaze is all Golden. On the middle of the dining room table, and over the back of a love seat. Wow!

We have still confined Blaze and Ricky to the Recreation room and the kitchen - plus the yard where there is a doggie door. The other rooms open to the foyer, and if a family member is not careful, I am afraid Blaze will zip out.

But I never thought that he might hop up on a table.

I wrote down the name of the book. A good friend gave me Marley and Me, and I just got The Secret Life of Germs, thanks to Oprah. I am sort of afraid to read it because much of our house is carpeted, and by being a gardener, I am not a clean freak. However I need to know if I am doing something that could be dangerous. I think the dirty parts of my house are pillows, mattresses, carpet, and pillowed furniture. We'll see.

Sammy

Sammy, this really has nothing to do with the van, or getting your dog to sit in the van, but commiseration :)

I thought for sure by 1 my beagle would have most things mastered. We trained over and over and over again. She caught on amazingly quick to everything. And we never stopped teaching and working on current commands. However, it took until the last few months (she's now 2) for her to actually stop her hard headed self and actually listen, ALL the time.

She doesn't jump all over the furniture. She's still working on jumping on people (but getting MUCH better) You Put her in a sit stay, and she STAYS. Mostly except for when we accidentally move our hand in the motion we use for "come in" at the door. She stays. She's walking great. She lays down and stays. She'll do EVERYTHING. And she's extremely reliable off leash, something we never imagined, regardless of how well trained we got her.

She's still an eternal puppy, though, just a smart, well behaved puppy, now. So don't fret if blaze doesn't seem to be getting any less stubborn. You'll probably have success quicker than we did, since you're attending obedience and we never did.

Coda would have failed obedience miserably, I think. She was very ADD and easily bored/distracted. Now she has some what of an attention span, and remembers what she was commanded to do 10 seconds ago, and to keep doing it!!

Good luck! And I hope you have a big box of tissues for marley and me. One of my favorites, but one of the hardest to read.

Munkos, I have only read the first chapter of Marley and Me, and may have trouble with it. People who I don't consider sensitive talk about crying at the end. I just have to think of the dogs I have lost through the years, and can tear up. But I will try to read the book.

I asked for a spirited dog so that our older dog would not get depressed. So, I cannot really complain about Blaze. The Dog School is so good because not only are the other dogs in the class cooperating, but in every ring, the dogs are cooperating. Blaze can not only see that the dogs heeling with their trainers are being good, but the dogs in all the other rings are being good. No dog is being permitted to jump, play, wrestle, or even bark. That is very helpful for a Golden Retriever who wants to please.

I bet Coda is a real cutie.

SAmmy

Consider the dog, the owner and the training when recommending any type of training aid. History of the dog and the belief system and previous training efforts should all be taken into consideration. In law enforcement the idea is to use deadly force ONLY WHEN NECESSARY, not just as the first and or only option.

I know this thread is old, but wanted to post the best dog harness I have used on my 90 plus pound labs. Its the Roadie Ruff Rider. It has three settings, so you can make it to where he can only sit. And its strong enough for large dogs.

Here is a link that might be useful: Roadie Ruff Rider Harness