Maybe the concern is salmonella on the pets tongue and in their poop. The tongue part could be valid, but again, I've never gotten sick, and I let my dogs kiss me all the time. Studies show that 36% of dogs and 18% of cats have salmonella in their poop, regardless of whether they are fed raw or not. And direct transmission is not the norm:

Salmonella typhi and paratyphi (as well as Shigella) are strictly human pathogens and domestic animals play no role in the epidemiology of these infections (although non-human primates may be infected and serve as a source for their handlers). All of the other "non-typhoid" Salmonella spp. (Salmonella enterica) are ubiquitously present in the environment and reside in the GI tracts of animals. As such, animals are the ultimate source for virtually all Salmonella. The vast majority of human cases of salmonellosis are, however, acquired not through direct contact with animals, but rather by ingestion of contaminated foods. For example:

* Salmonella enteritidis from undercooked eggs
* Salmonella typhimurium from undercooked meats or fecal contamination of a variety of foods.
o One study of 200 meat samples from grocery stores in the Washington, D.C. area found that 20% contained Salmonella bacteria, and 84% of these Salmonella strains were resistant to at least one antibiotic. However, overall rates of Salmonella contamination of meats in the U.S. have been dropping in recent years, from 10.65% in 1998 to 3.6% in 2003 (USDA data).

So again, feeding raw is not the risk. Improper cooking of food that humans eat, and improper cleaning techniques are.

people been feeding barf ( bones and raw foods) for years without incident. But like everything else there is a right and a wrong way. Most of the hype out there against it is strickly uneducated fear based. However I do not feel barf is for all dogs. I would rather see people try home cooking first, but to learn how to omit grains as grains is the biggest culprit for many allergy ridden dogs. Remember food intolerances start in the digestive system and work their way through the blood stream.The most common food irritant to dogs and cats are grains, especially foods with cheap grain fillers. Proteins in dogs foods can annoy animals too, but ironically the same meat protien served cooked or fresh in whole food form doen't create the same irritants.
One of the best way to start a home cooking plan is to try grainless or meatless dog food. Honest kitchen ( just to name one) has a mix made for just this and has a great reputation for success. it is expensive but it gets people motivated and people either than try on their own, or feel the price is well worth the new found health of their animal.I work with allergy cases on an almost daily basis and feel these new grainless/meatless foods are a godsend to those who are afraid of not doing it correctly.

Thanks for the Re-do ! I just asked another question about the ingredients in raw diets. I'm really interested in this topic!

I have to run out now, but I will snip a few posts from another thread about what I feed mine. I am not as intense about it as some people. If you go to the BARF (Bones and Raw Food, or Biologically Appropriate Raw Food) boards, or pick up books on the diet, you will find a dizzying amount of info. So much that some people get scared off, because it sounds too complicated.

I don't have a perfect diet, my personal food pyramid is more like a trapezoid ;) So I am not too worried that not following the raw diet to the T is a problem. My dogs are 12 and 14, and are in good health. People are usually surprised at their ages, including my new vet. Over the years I have had 3 vets and none of them had any particular objection to me feeding raw. One even borrowed my books on the subject :)

My previous posts:

-------
I prepare it, but it's not cooked. (Except for canned fish.) I feed a raw diet, so they get raw chicken necks most days. A few days they get a meat/organ/veggie mix, which I make in a big batch, portion and freeze. The mix is:

Raw ground beef
Raw chicken livers
Raw chicken gizzards and hearts
Assorted raw veggies, usually carrots, sweet potato, squash, parsley, kale, green beans, and broccoli. I also save any peelings or end pieces from veggies I make for dinner to add to the mix. (Except for asparagus trimmings, which Taco does *not* like!)

The organ meat and veggies are ground up and added to the ground beef. Once a week they get canned fish, usually Mackerel, or Salmon if it is on sale. They get raw eggs a few times a week too, and the occassional lamb neck bone. Others who feed a raw diet also give raw beef bones and raw pork bones, but one of my girls is a 'gulper', and tries to swallow them while they are still too big, so I stopped with those in fear of her choking.

Cost of feeding raw for me:

Chicken necks - .25 per pound, I go through about 1.5 pounds per day for my two dogs. Veggie mix - if I averaged the ingredients, probably $1.00 per pound. I use 2 - 3 # per week. So overall I spend about $6.00 per week feeding them.

I buy my necks from a wholesaler, which is nice, because necks are hard/impossible to find from a regular grocer. (And the price is great!) A lot of people feeding raw use wings instead, which are definitely more expensive. There are also places on the net where you can buy the raw food diet already made, but it's close to $4 per pound plus shipping.
-----------------------

I don't have much experience in feeding dogs raw food, but I did start my dog on raw food in the last weeks of his life. I don't know if it was a good idea or bad idea, but he had pretty much quit eating his Science Diet Rx food that he'd been eating and hating nearly all his life. He had a heart murmer, and congestive heart failure, so he had to eat a low sodium and fat diet. He was my mother's dog until the day she passed away, and I inherited him when he was a senior citizen. His health finally started failing, and he probably had a stroke, but the vet wasn't sure. Anyway, he totally quit eating his food, so I thought, why not? He had been a slave to the tastess RX food for years, why not let him enjoy his food for whatever time he had left. He LOVED the raw food, and ate it for the few weeks before he died. I got him a ready made frozen brand of raw food. I don't know whether switching him at that point helped him or harmed him healthwise, but his quality of life, at least at meal time, sure got a whole lot better. Actually, he might have starved otherwise, since he had gotten to where he'd refuse to eat. As it was, with the switch in foods, died a happy dog.

Sally

Sally, great idea by you, and I smiled at the thought that he 'died a happy dog' :)

For toomuchglass and anyone else interested:

Good place to start

Switching to Raw Book

Other authors you can Google: Dr. Lonsdale, Dr. Billinghurst, Kymythy Schultze.

Article, Cooked or Raw

Yahoo Raw Diet Group (One of 193 raw feeding groups on Yahoo!)

All of the Yahoo Raw Groups

Frisbee Dogs :)

Who is training our Veterinarians? (From the Wall Street Journal)

No discussion about feeding raw would be complete without linking to Katie's site. She is totally against raw, and has links to various sites to back up her position. What is troubling is that if you look at the links, and peck around on the websites, nearly all of them are selling dog food, or in the case of one, $200 Pet Nutritional Consultations.

I will not say that feeding raw is 100% safe, and that no dog has ever died from it. (The same can be said for commercial food.) The best thing to do is read, read, read, and make your *own* decision. Decide if the benefits outweigh the risks for you and your pet.

Katie's Site

What I learned in vet school:

AAFCO standards are the minimal nutrtion level for known nutrients. It is a mark of adequacy only. I'd rather feed my pets for optimal nutrition.

Dogs are not that much different from humans nutrition-wise. We are both omnivores. Fresh fruits, veggies, and meats are more nutritious that hydrolyzed, dehydrated, pulverized, and otherwise mutilated foods. You can't make up for the nutritional deficiencies caused by processing by throwing some vitamins and minerals into the food. Same as people- enriched white bread is not as healthy as whole grain bread.

But consider how many people eat white bread and other low-nutritionally valued foods, maybe because it's cheaper. If they don't care enough about their own health, how much do you think they really care about their pets?

In school, we have a REQUIRED clinical nutrition class. It is NOT sponsored by any food company and is taught by a veterinary clinical nutritionist associated with another vet school. We also receive a rather huge and well done textbook on small animal clinical nutrition. Vets in general are scientific folks, and we like to have data to back up claims. So when Science Diet, Purina, Eukanuba and the like spend millions and millions of dollars researching ways to nutritionally manage disease, we tend to listen. When they find that range of a certain nutrient that is optimal for health, we listen. When they discover that keeping a dog thin for life will increase its life span AND prevent disease, we sure as heck listen.

I'm certainly not saying that you can't design a raw or homecooked diet to follow those parameters. The textbook we received has several chapters on feeding dogs and cats for health and in disease using homemade diets. It can be done, but it is not easy. There are many nutrients to balance and consider. I fed raw for quite a while, but now with 4 large dogs I ran into time, cost, and storage issues that could not be overcome. So I feed a human-grade commercial dog food and supplement with fresh meat and veggies.

In school we are also encouraged to attend lectures on various subjects including nutrition. Some are sponsored by pet food companies, but the science behind the research is still valid. You certainly don't have to feed Hills K/D for kidney disease if you follow the recommendations for protein, salt, fat, etc. for example. It's nice to get that background so if I have a client with a cat with renal disease I can recommend a variety of options suitable to the client, ranging from homemade to Rx diets. Not everyone is willing or able to feed raw, so a vet has to stock something that will benefit the pet. Of course, I'd recommend the one that I stock- duh. But that's not to the exclusion of homemade or other options. We also have school or club sponsored lecturers who highly recommend homemade (raw or cooked) diets, again with the caveat that they are done correctly.

I've heard all the stuff about germs and frankly don't think it's of great concern for anyone with basic hygiene. My iguanas and the turtles I help rescue were supposed to give me Salmonella years ago, yet I've somehow managed not to eat lizard or turtle poop. As mentioned before if you follow basic clean practices there won't be a problem. I just wash out the dogs' bowls with soap and water after they eat and never had a problem. I use a different cutting board for meat and produce already, and any utensil that touches raw meat automatically gets put into the dishwasher. The meat isn't different because I'm feeding it to the dogs vs eating it myself.

I think that raw or home-cooked diets can be much more nutritious than commercial prepared foods IF they are done correctly. Same with commercial diets- some are pure crap, others are really quite good, depending on what ingredients you start out with and what you do to them in the process.

I would certainly not discourage anyone willing to take on homemade diets. I would however encourage feed testing to make sure there are not any deficits or overages on key nutrients. Keeping an animal thin will also do wonders for their long-term health, as a landmark Purina study showed. I also think that variety is as good for animals as it is for us. Each meat has a different amino acid profile, so complete protein balance would mean switching meats every so often. Same with veggies- each has different micronutrients so giving the same thing all the time runs the risk of missing key nutrients.

Some pet food companies do provide free pet food to vet students. I will say 2 things that are almost universally true about vet students: 1) we are poor 2) we have pet(s) that need to eat. We'll take the free food, thank you very much. But we aren't so easily bought as to be blinded or never to keep open our minds to new research. And if you must know, no I do not take any of the free food at school. I'd love to take the Wellness but I have 1 dog allergic to lamb and another with grain intolerance so I couldn't feed the Wellness products that are offered. Hills, Purina, and Eukanuba also have food programs at my school. Some of my classmates take food from everyone! So we are not getting bribed into some sort of brand loyalty. I hope we are all learning how to recommend the best diets to our canine and feline friends, with considerations to the owner's wishes.

I just had to dispel the myths that nutrition is not in the veterinary cirriculum and that we have been bought by a pet food company.

Thank you Meghane! I was hoping you would chime in...we need 'the inside story', and your information is invaluable.

Same as people- enriched white bread is not as healthy as whole grain bread. That was the 'eureka' moment for me when I decided to try raw. I forgot what the comment was on some forum, but basically it pointed out that humans would not fare well on vitamin sprayed extruded lord knows what as a constant diet, so why would other species?

I am glad you touched on the nutrition education topic...I know that raw feeders can skew info just like die hard kibble feeders, and the fact that there is an ubiased resource is not often mentioned.

I still take issue with feed testing though. I will stand by my opinion that nobody needs a degree in nutrition to feed themselves and their family, so why is it a big deal to feed a pet? You do the research, assemble a diet plan and go with it. If things aren't working, ie the pet is not thriving or blood panels are poor, you adjust. I guess the problem with that is if you look at humans these days and the extremely poor choices they are making with their own diets, the chances of them feeding their pet properly are slim.

I think you should really try the lizard and turtle poop though...it is most excellent with a little garlic butter ;)

Hey weed: I have to admit to a bit of anal-retentiveness. I think that if I recommend that people send in their diets for a feed analysis, they'll do a better job putting it together. I did a feed analysis for my diet and you're right- a bit of time with a calculator and some paper and I was right on the money. I just don't want people throwing their dogs only chicken necks or something similar.

I should have mentioned that for cats, I prefer all meat canned food like Fancy Feast (I keep forgetting about cats since I don't have them). I was very convinced by a couple of different speakers that it's the way to go. Switching between 3-4 flavors such as a seafood, a poultry, a meat and something else to balance out the nutrition. Cats on canned food do NOT get dental disease any worse than dry fed cats (it's an individual cat thing, not a food thing). And all the moisture in canned is MUCH better for kitty kidneys than dry, because cats don't drink as much as they should. If you take what a wild cat would eat- rodents, birds, the ocassional bug and lizard- and throw it into a blender you would NOT get dry kibble. The Fancy Feast seafood in aspice, gross as it looks, has a lot of bones and more whole seafood than other varieties and is probably the closest to a natural cat diet as you could buy. Cats don't make mousey, birdie or fish filets- they eat the whole critter including the skin, hair, scales, feathers, bones, brain (where all the wonderful taurine lives) gizards and lizards. I will honestly recommend it for all my kitty clients, and it's just a grocery store brand. Weird huh?

Can I use the "vitamin sprayed extruded lord knows what" line? LOL!

Ya know, my friend who managed to eat bird poop wasn't so fond of the outcome- 20 pounds off via the mouth and butt. Ew. I didn't ask if he had it with garlic butter; may have been worth it in that case. Heck, I could stand to lose 20 pounds and I love garlic butter. Hmm maybe that's why I could stand to lose 20 pounds...

Meghane ~

Interesting info you have shared. What about the idea of offering canned mackeral? What about sharing whatever cooked meat your family eats?

I love to make salmon loaf and use the bones in it for us to eat. It is easy to digest and has added calcium I suppose?

Robyn

I'm sorry, but most vets don't know squat about raw-food feeding. These vets universally casually throw negative comments out regarding raw meat/bones diets. Do I give a rats patootie? No I don't.

The reason there are no studies out about raw feeding is that there is no product to sponsor and market. End of story.

When I first read about feeding dogs and cats a raw meat diet it was truly an epiphany. Of course! Of course! What do predators eat in the wild? Purina? When did processed pet foods come into the market and become ubiquitous? Why, in the span of 3-4 generations, have we turned from completely natural diets for our animals, to refined and processed grain-based cereals?

Doh! It was a smack-your-head moment.

To backtrack a bit, I also do not believe that we should be eating refined grains in our own human diets. Again, it's not our natural food and our bodies are not designed to use that food. We have our own problems and diseases stemming from this refined grains diet. I try not to eat this carp or feed it to my husband. If I had a child there would not be a box of cereal in the house. Let alone feeding the carp to my dog.

So. I feed a raw meat and bones diet. This stuff about it being a risk to humans? I eat meat, therefore I handle raw meat for my own meals. No difference there. I don't let my dog drag raw meat through the house. He eats it on a washable mat. Raw-meat borne bacteria? Dogs and cats handle it much differently than we do. They have shorter digestive tracts and different digestive "juices". That's why they can eat rotting carcasses and poop - if we ate that stuff we would die.

If you choose not to feed raw, at least switch to feeding cooked human food. I would never feed a pet "pet" food. Ever.

Tell us how you really feel, Gina ;)

Wouldn't want to disappoint you Weedie!

Gina- Not all vets are ignorant on raw feeding. See my 2 posts above yours. I specifically said that it is very possible to provide a balanced diet by feeding homemade or raw. It's nice that the companies did the research so we know what a balanced diet entails. I do agree with you that kibble is a ridiculous thing to feed. But I'm not going to chase away my clients who for whatever reason only want to feed that. I will recommend the natural high quality human grade diets and certianly nothing with fillers and crap. But the reality is that not all people have the ability to provide raw or homecooked meals to their pets, including myself at this time (well, dinner is homecooked).

jrdown- I would never just throw my dogs a bunch of meat or whatever I eat without balancing it nutritionally first. First of all, I rarely eat anything with bones, which means little to no calcium and phosphorus. I wouldn't feed cooked bones to my dogs anyway because they are more likely to splinter and because the benefits of raw bones are eliminated once you cook them. I carefully prepare my dogs' diets and don't want to destroy my 2 hours of work getting their diets done correctly. And to be honest I don't eat enough meats to make leftovers an option. If you're going to do raw, you have to be extremely careful about balancing the nutrients for your pets, and trust me throwing Fido an extra piece of steak can really screw up the protein:carb, calcium, phosphorus, and fat for the day. Obviously here and there (maybe once a week or so) isn't going to do too much harm unless the pet has a medical condition that requires a strict diet or if the pet becomes obese. But you do have to resist the urge to "wing it" in feeding raw or homecooked because you can cause a lot of metabolic disease if done incorrectly. Some other posters have links to excellent resources on feeding raw or homecooked.

Canned fish is a good source of protein, but you do have to watch the fat content in some preparations. Also canned fish tends to be high in salt, which is detrimental to many health conditions. Finally you have to be concerned about the source of the fish- mercury poisoning is going to become much more common if things continue in the current direction. Our pets are much smaller and cannot take the mercury levels that we can. I'm not sure that WE can take the mercury levels in our foods long-term. Again if it's not an every day thing and you rotate the protein source you balance the good and bad with each meat.

You'd be surprised how little calcium there is in fish bones. Much of fish bone is cartilage, not actual calcified bone. Not to say that cartilage doesn't have good things in it too, but it isn't much in calcium.

Meghane, I DID say "most".

:-)

I don't find you typical at all, sad to say. You are educated, curious and open-minded.

I will bolster your argument against the myth that dry pet food is better for pet teeth than wet. That's just hogwash. Is eating Cap'n Crunch 2-3 times a day good for your teeth? If you're worried about your dog's tooth and gum health, throw the dog a bone - a big, raw beef bone to chaw on for a couple days at a time (then throw it out as it dries out.)

This is super interesting!!!!

A colleague of mine feeds a fish/rice/veggie diet to her cocker spaniel because of his allergies, he seems much better. But I wonder if I should warn her about the mercury, as that could become a problem.... maybe she should be doing some chicken/beef as well?

I have been thinking about going raw/homecooked for my dogs for awhile. The only problem in my case would be time. I don't have any!!! Meghane mentioned some of the human grade foods, etc. what are the names of them? I really would like to be giving my dogs better nutrition, especially since they are getting into their old(er) age.

If I did decide to go raw/homecooked, where would I get recipes? Just online?

I've been around barf feeders for years and I have been around vets for years and I can honestly say up until a few years ago the classes on nutrition for Vets were a joke, and almost all my Vet friends will openly admit it, except of course for those who went ahead and added a nutritional degree to their DVM titles.
For one, and this is extremely an imporatnt thing to remember is there is only 50 certified Veterinary nutritionists in the US and that's doubled in just the last few years. That's a very very very low number when you consider the amount of diseases that are directly diet related. It's also ironic when there are about 140 or more certified dermatologists.
Thankfully things are changing in the vet schools and for many already in practice. I for one am glad more vets are taking an interest in keeping up with the available nutritional education out there as it was longgggggggg over due. As far as vets go denying the attributes of a barf diet, to this day there has not been a full life of a dog controlled study on barf fed dogs in any of the colleges. Independent clinical trials by barf advocates, but no controlled studies as of yet I presume when one is completed there will be alot more discussed more positvely instead of denying what one just doesn't have enough expereince with.

emmhip, there's an active Yahoo group, I think it was "raw feeding" where you'll find lots of help.

Veterinary nutritionists do two things- research and teach. Great people, but they're not the ones out in the trenches telling people what to feed their pets.
The nutritionist I had in school was very impressed with my homecooked meal. Her only thought was that most people find it too time consuming and expensive, so it will never be that popular. Since such a small minority of people do BARF and similar, it isn't taught well in vet school. At least not in the traditional cirriculum. Like my zoological med professor says "don't let school get in the way of your education." Find the opportunities to learn more and what's out there beyond the reaches of academia (not anything close to the real world).
Gina, because of your knowledge and passion for the best care, you're one of the clients I want in my practice when I get one. I'd even work on your cats if you have any ;)

emmhip: I've used Natural Balance duck and potato. It isn't human grade, but I'm in the middle of testing Tatya's food allergies. She's good on that, so now I'm challenging her with one whose name I forgot that has some grains and IS human grade and organic and made with non-growth hormone meats. Still doing the home cooked at night. Next time I buy it I'll make sure to look at the name. They all get jumbled up in my head.

Just from my experience and observation; I watched 3 dogs on raw diets die of various types of cancer. I'm not saying that it was due to the raw diet but it certainly didn't "save" them from getting the cancer. I guess if you followed very closely with a Vet or Holistic Vet but these were very caring dog owners that spent alot of money feeding their dogs this way and to what end? They fed them for several years on the raw diet, however, I don't believe that they had them checked frequently by their Vet.It is a very big committment in, IMHO, but I think dog food is the way to go especilally when your dogs are eating better that you are...something is wrong there!

Meghane - saw your post above about Hills K/D and would like to ask a question. My dog just turned 10 and was diagnosed with kidney disease about 6 months ago. She was prescribed K/D canned and just wouldn't eat it. We tried the dry and she will sometimes eat a little. She is living on a lot of biscuits. I didn't get any other info from the vet as to what else I can give her. Can you direct me to a site that outlines other foods that I could possibly doctor up the dry stuff with so that she might eat? I've tried little bits of cheese and spaghetti noodles, and sometimes that works. What should the percentage of protein stay under? Thanks for your help.

You could try mixing baby food in with it. Veggies and maybe other things, vary it over the course of a week. Meghane could tell you what would be best if you try this. It would be more for getting her to eat than trying to supplement.

twotogo: Nobody is saying that feeding raw will 'save' a pet from contracting disease. The contributors to cancer and other diseases are the same as with humans - hereditary, environmental, bad luck.

I feed raw because I honestly believe that most pet food is simply inappropriate. I compare it to myself eating the human equivalent, which would be average to below average foodstuffs, ground up, heated, dehydrated and sprayed with liquid vitamins. I would survive, but I don't think I'd be particularly healthy, and I do think that I would be more succeptible to disease.

I spend about $25/month feeding 2 medium sized dogs - I think that's pretty reasonable. I suspect that my dogs do eat better than I do...I am addicted to ice cream and don't eat as many veggies as I should :)

Hi - I'm late to this discussion. I changed my cats over to a raw diet (I buy frozen raw rabbit over the internet, then mix supplements into it) since January and the improvement in their coats, behavior, digestion, and everything is incredible.

Science Diet, btw, is garbage! Many vets will have you believe otherwise; ask them what the financial arrangement is between them and Science Diet. Read the ingredients. It is a marketing marvel! And garbage for your pet.

My cats are amazingly healthier since I put them on raw. I'm sure it's not for everyone, but it sure works for us!

To address some myths about what is hormone free, organic, human grade etc. here are some things some of you may not know;
All chickens for example that are used for human consumption must test free of hormones, antibiotics or pesticides before slaughter.That doesn't mean they never were given these things it ONLY means the animals intended for slaughter didn't receive any chemicals a few days before, same goes for the use of "antibiotic and hormone free" this implies that an animal has been raised chemical free, again not true. A play on words is all it is.
Same goes for organic. there are several ways dog food companies and people foods for that matter get away with saying one thing to make one think it's something else.
Now take "meals' as in meat meals used in dog foods called Human grade. Another trick. First of all there is no such thing as human grade meals. The meat may start out as human grade because it is from a inspected plant but for dog food it NEVER gets a sticker because the meal is never intended for human consumption.
i'm not saying some companies don't use better ingredients than others, I just get very annoyed with the BS advertisment.

I'm just not informed enough to switch over to a complete raw diet. As a compromise, my 5 year old female dog has a high quality kibble (to which I add glocosamine, chondroiton, and flaxseed oil) in the morning, and has a chicken back and pureed veggies or fruit w/yogurt for dinner each night. She's been on this diet for two years and her teeth are shiney white without a bit of tarter!!

That may not sound very exciting to you all, but my current foster is a returned dog who was adopted at the exact time that I adopted Katie. The returned dog is actually 2 years younger than my girl. When she came back, her teeth looked like they were encrusted in concrete.

I wish I could get my older guy (11) interested in raw chicken backs. (He licks them and wants to know when I'll be serving his real dinner.) I've had his teeth cleaned twice this year when he was having other surgeries :-( And I clean his teeth several times a week (I aim for nightly, BUT good intentions don't count.)

Just something else to think about in considering the advantages of raw. My excitement tonight was that the grocery store had marked down the chicken backs to 49 cents a pound, so I stocked up.

suzieque ~ I'm glad your cats are doing well! The other thing I didn't mention about feeding my pups raw is their absolute JOY when it's mealtime. I feed twice a day. In the morning I make my coffee first, then go about getting them their breakfast. I cut Taco's necks in half, and apparently this 45 second ritual is just too much for her...after 15 seconds she starts to whine softly. At the 35 second mark, she sometimes pokes me in the leg with her nose :) hehe. Maggie simply 'talks' the whole time. She's a collie/shepherd mix, both breeds have the 'wooooo woooo' language. As I carry the bowls to their spot, Taco hops and dances. And heaven forbid if I am 'late' with a meal. Sometimes I'm involved in something and one or the other will come over and bonk me with their nose or smack my leg with their paw. Never saw that with kibble.

cindyx - Yes, yes and yes. The marketing of food, whether for humans or pets, is full of half truths and spin. Look at the carp that is marketed to our children...sugar laden cereal, Lunchables, Hot Pockets, Easy Mac.... gee, is it a surprise that childhood obesity, early onset Diabetes 2 and heart disease are issues for them? And what about all the allergies, asthma, ADD, and ADHD? I'm in my 40's and although there were some annoying kids around, it's nothing like what I see today. What has changed that is causing these things?

Pet food...Gina mentioned it earlier...it didn't even exist not too long ago. And just what is in it? To be sure, there are some better ones out there, however most are still grain based, which is simply not appropriate. The cheaper ones contain stuff that should be incinerated, not fed to any living creature. I will not say that the following article is 100% truth, because anyone can spin anything, but because the topic has been covered by a number of sources, I believe there is a good portion of truth to it. Article.

Ooops. I guess I got on a two step soapbox there. Just my 18 cents :)

Weed, Just to make myself clear I actually am not a barf advocate. I am not against it either. I know many barf fed dogs that do absolutely great, I also know many that didn't adjust at all.I also know many barf fed dogs that ended up with deficiencies. What I never saw was a dog sick with salmonella or e-coli from raw feeding. Which is actually quite ironic as that is what most people "think' ( wrongly I might add is going to happen) I have seen SIBO but in all fairness I have seen that in kibble fed dogs too, actually whatever illneeses I have seen in realtionship to a barf diet I have seen the same problems with home cooked and prepared dog foods.
Point being each dog is going to adjust or not to any certain food plan and as of yet there is still no perfect fool proof plan for all dogs. I just wish the info we all had was a lot less biased! I will say where kibbles are concerned instead of concentrating on marketing tricks people really should get to know their feed terms.

Cynthia, older dogs who have never eaten a raw bone may not be able to do it. Raw feeding with bones strengthens dogs teeth, jaws and muscles. So introducing an older dog who hasn't had to use those muscles - you can give him pre-ground formulas (they're expensive), or put the bones in a bag and bust them up with a mallet. Or just to introduce any raw food into his diet, you can feed no bones and just ground meat as a supplement to his current diet. Some organ meats like chicken livers mixed in some ground beef. Maybe a whole egg (shells on) once in a while.

Or hold one end of a chicken wing or neck and teach him to grab the other end and chew on it. Some dogs have to be taught how to eat a real bone, since they're used to kibble.

Just as with any introduction to a new food, introduce one new item at a time, in a little portion, to adjust his system to it. Organ meat and eggs are especially very rich.

Gina that was very helpful advice. Thanks for taking the time to share it! I do add yogurt or an egg to Monty's food every few nights and he'll eat fruit and pureed veggies. I may haul out the 1950s meat grinder and try to get him interested in a spoonful of ground chicken tomorrow :-)

Cynthia, if you're really interested in Barf, may I suggest a really good book. It's called the Ultimate Diet by Kymythy Schultze. It is an extremely easy read and makes sense out of what others make complicated. It only costs about $10.00 and it's well worth the knowedge.

Geeze - here I am bringing up the rear . Weed -- thank you so much for the sites - I'm definately going to read up on them . Everyone else - your input is so much appreciated ! Thank you all !!!

For those too nervous to feed their dogs raw chicken bones, simply because they are bones, or for dogs that have trouble crunching them up, many people use a Maverick Grinder. It's not advertised for grinding bones, but it does work quite well. (On chicken...beef and pork bones are too hard.)

I used one for awhile, but ended up giving it away when I realized that my dogs were fine with chewing the bones.

Here is a link that might be useful: grinder links

cynthia, dogs do go through a digestive change when switching over to barf, and it isn't always pretty! LOL
Make sure you start off with lean meats preferably white meat fishes and poutry first. And skinless. You don't want to add to much fat at first or you can put the dog in an acute state of pancreatitis. I actually suggest people try home cooked first, and than add RAW bones as a separate meal. You don't want to just jump in, seriously. I also do not reccomend adding raw to kibble at the same meal. Kibble digests at a much different rate than raw. (longer) the reasons dogs don't get sick from salmonella and Ecoli like we would from raw foods is due to that shorter digestive process. So when you add kibble it changes that process and slows it down thus creating a possiblility for bacterial growth.

I fed my 8 pounder the raw diet for many years. Her breed is prone to teeth problems but hers were pearly white. When we got the lab, we started her on raw immediately. She did well on it for a while but started showing signs of allergies. We eliminated a lot of stuff and finally got down to just chicken. Of course, she seemed to be allergic to the chicken. It is too difficult and expensive for me to feed her raw lamb so I started trying out premium foods. She's currently on Flint River Ranch. I'd like to try the new Canidae lamb formula but I haven't found anyone locally that has it yet.

When we switched the lab to dog food we put the 8 pounder on dog food again. She's 10 years old and has only had her teeth cleaned once (after she went back on dog food).

I can understand why vets don't advocate raw feeding--your average dog owner can be really stupid sometimes--you see it occasionally on this board. I finally stopped telling people that we fed raw because they would think it was a great idea but wouldn't do any research, even when I gave them books to read. One person thought they were doing great by feeding their dog weiners as their raw diet.

People used to feed their dogs table scraps and the dogs were fine with it. Vets don't recommend table food anymore because people don't eat the way they used to--a lot of time table food consists of McDonalds hamburgers and fries. I would bet that feeding the crappiest dog food is better than the fast food we subject ourselves to.

De