Dishwasher Plumbing

14 years ago

My wife is a stay at home, homeschooling mom, so her daily to-do list can be overwhelming. We have a relatively small kitchen with difficult window placement so I cannot move the refrigerator from its location. We also have no cabinet space to spare for a dishwasher next to the sink.

The kitchen is roughly sketched here:

www.charlestondgc.com/images/kitch.jpg

The walkway is narrow to begin with and is narrower if the fridge is move to the opposing wall.

I don't like the idea of a portable dishwasher since we have to little mischievous girls and I'd hate for the drain hose to be moved from the sink to the floor.

That being said, I'd like to put the dishwasher where shown in the image above.

The electrical is not a problem, but from what I've read I can connect (with a p-trap) to the main drain line of the house from this location, provided I can supply hot water to the machine, which I can.

The issue I have is that the main drain is metal and I see potential for a major plumbing job if splicing a new drain into the line causes a problem.

Is it possible to run a drain down through the floor and up through the floor by the sink drain and connect to the sink downspout.

Here is a picture to show what I mean

www.charlestondgc.com/images/pipes.jpg

The blue is the sink drain and black is the suggested route for DW drain. I guess the question is whether the pump on the DW can provide enough pressure?

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Comments (8)

randy427
14 years ago
The DW pump shouldn't have a problem with the extra distance.
Have you considered putting the stove at the proposed DW location and the DW where the stove now is? It may eliminate a vent hood for the stove, but should make for a more functional countertop.
lazypup
14 years ago
The drain line from a dishwasher is defined as a temporary line.

Per code it must originate and terminate within the same room. It may not pass through a wall, floor or ceiling.
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brickeyee, I don't but I can learn. However, I prefer not to do it if I can get by with ABS/PVC fittings and sharkbite type connectors.
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There is a very simple DIY soluton that willl not require any soldering. First of all, as was mentioned above, DO NOT cut copper pipe or tubing with a hacksaw. In nearly all cases the stress of cutting copper with a hacksaw results in getting the pipe ever so slightly out of round, however it is enough that it is sometimes nearly impossible to get a fitting on the copper again, and even if your lucky enough to get the fitting on there is an extremely high risk that the joint will not properly seal. Copper should always be cut with a tubing cutter. When working in a tight spot such as you have there a "mini tubing cutter" is the ideal tool. On bit of advice here. You will find small red mini tubing cutters in all hardware and home supply stores for about $5. In my humble opion those are at best junk. For just a bit more ($10 to $12 range) you can get a mini tubing cutter made by Imperial Tool Company, Superior Tool Company or Rigid Tool company and you will have a pro quality tool that will hold up for years under DIY conditions. Begin by turning the water off with the ball valve, then using a 2" wide strip of emery cloth wrapped around the pipe and pull it back and forth like a shoe shine rag to clean the tarnish off the copper. Using a tubing cutter cut the copper pipe at the point I indexed on the attached illustration. Now this might seem a bit confusing. The 1/2" copper extending out of the ball valve at the cut point is 1/2" copper pipe, which means it has a 1/2" inside diameter (ID). The outside diameter of 1/2" copper pipe is 5/8" and copper tubing is rated by its outside diameter (OD) so a 5/8" tubing fitting will fit directly on 1/2" copper pipe. You will need a compression type reducing union. Most reducing unions are rated for copper tubing therefore the one you need would be a 3/8" x 5/8 reducing union. Some manufactures now rate them as 3/8" by 5/8" tubing & 1/2" copper pipe. To install you will remove the compression nut on the large end of the union. You will find a brass compression ferrule under the nut. (looks like a cheap mans wedding ring). Slide the nut on the copper with the open side of the nut facing the cut end of the pipe, then slide the compression ferrule on the pipe. Now slide the union on the pipe until you feel the copper pipe hit the internal stop insuring it is on all the way, then slide the compression ferrule towards the union and tighten the nut on the union. You should hold the union steady with a pair of channel locks while tightening the nut with an adjustable wrench. Make sure the nut is tight. Now remove the compression nut and ferrule from the small end of the union and you will have a 3/8" male thread extending out. The line from your dishwasher will screw directly on that thread. Do Not put teflon tape or thread joint compound one any of the threads. They are all mechanical joints that are intended to be dry fit. Another hint, If you cannot find a reducing union check in the area where they have the angle stop and line stop valves for fixtures. You could use a compression type straight through line stop in the same manner as the compression union. The only difference is that you would then have a redundant valve but if left open it is no problem and probably a compression straight valve would be slightly cheaper.
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Are you sure this is your only option? I recommend posting your layout here (if you haven't already) and let the people here help you with the layout. It may very well be your only option, but you would be surprised at what we can come up with for challenging kitchens! Here is a link that might be useful: FAQ: How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?
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Is there another story of your house over the interior wall stove location in the kitchen? If there is, then it will be hard to vent that location. That would add to the cost of moving the stove there unless you do a recirculating hood. The range icon that you've used has a little grill on it - will you have grill on your range? If you do, you will want very good venting because grills can produce a lot of smoke. If there is just roof and attic above the range location or something else that allows the vent to go straight up like a closet that it can be run through, then getting the vent there shouldn't be a problem. I think that one adds the cost of running a vent straight up through the roof to moving the gas line, moving the range will come out about the same cost as moving the sink and dishwasher. If you have to get the vent to one of the exterior walls, it might cost more than moving the sink. How much is going to depend on construction details like which way the joists above the vent run. Outside cost issues, do you usually have one cook in the kitchen? The space between the sink and the range in Plan B might work better if you often have two or more working in the kitchen at the same time. It looks like the aisle between the sink and range in Plan A is a bit over 3' which is tight if you are going to have people at both of them at the same time, but okay if it is mainly a one person kitchen. Where are you storing dishes, flatware, utensils, pots and pans? In plan B, I guess that the utensils and flat ware could go in the 18" or 24" drawer units by the range and sink but dishes and or pots and pans might have to travel farther from the DW and range - or if dishes are stored to the left of the range, someone at the range would be in the way of someone putting away dishes. On the other hand, B is more convenient for tasks like filling a pasta or soup pot with water. And having more work counter/landing space to the side of the range is nice. For a one cook kitchen, the tight work triangle of plan B might work well Plan A gives more room to the table area. Plan B also gives more room to the sitting area. There is also traffic flow. Where do the two doorways on the right side of the kitchen go? In plan A, someone going between those two doors is likely to go through the cooking aisle. I can see why you would be torn between the two plans.
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korney19
14 years ago
Really? Is that a nationwide code? Why couldn't it go through the floor to the actual drainpipe in the basement rafters and connect there? It would seem so much easier plumbing it as if it were an additional sink, no?
lazypup
14 years ago
It may not go through the floor and even if it could, it may not be connected directly to the drain lines.

The line from a dishwasher is a temporary appliance service line which MUST originate and terminate within the same room. It may not pass through walls, floors or ceilings.

It also MAY NOT be connected directly to the house DWV piping. It MUST discharge into an approved "indirect waste receptacle".
korney19
14 years ago
lazypup, I'm pretty new to this forum, not to GW, and have been reading many pages & posts here, and I am not worthy! You are, PEX aside, like the Grand Poobah of plumbing codes!

What other code info/help/insight can you give someone looking to add a dishwasher to a kitchen remodel?

Does it need to be at least a minimum distance from the sink?

Can DIY'ers successfully do a complete new install without a plumber?

Are there any permits needed?

Can a drawer base cabinet be installed between a DW & sink without causing interference headaches? How do you plumb it in that case?

Anything else you can think of we should know?

P.S. My 83 yr old mother, Alzheimers & all, has to go to court for some unbeknownst housing code violations that seem pretty lame, like carpeted (but removable) bathroom, some old plastic bathroom tiles that popped off, etc. Do you have any info on these codes? A nursing home LPN recommended that the carpet stay so she/a handicapped person don't slip on a throw rug that may move or moppable wet tile surface instead. They also cited her for having the hot water handle in the med cabinet. Thanks.
davidro1
14 years ago
to the OP: it has been done. What you have drawn. The DW drain goes under the floor and comes back up through the floor. Although it technically does leave the room along the way. I saw a discussion about this on another site.

the hose still have to go high, in a high loop before coming down to connect to the sink drain connection (tee or wye).

I've also seen it done with the hose connected to a standpipe under the floor. There's no need for a high loop there.

Nobody is going to claim that these routes for the hose meet the code requirements.
brickeyee
14 years ago
"I don't like the idea of a portable dishwasher since we have to little mischievous girls and I'd hate for the drain hose to be moved from the sink to the floor."

while portable DWs have their own inconveniences, having the drain hose end up on the floor is not going to happen.

The normal connection is an adapter screwed onto the kitchen faucet that the supply line locks on to.
The drain line is attached to the fill line at the faucet end and discharges into the sink.

I have never seen a portable DW with separate lines, for the obvious problem of keeping the drain line in the sink while being above the flood level of the sink (a requirement for an indirect discharge).

The water comes out of the drain line rather forcefully, so it needs to be solidly attached.
By having the drain line attached to a bracket at the faucet and the fill line locked on to the faucet the problem is solved.
korney19
14 years ago
lazypup, you still there?

Dishwasher Plumbing

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