Softener sizing is based on the volume of resin in the resin tank in cu ft. A specific volume of resin has a flexible hardness removal capacity based on the amount of salt used to regenerate that volume of resin. The industry standard is to quote size the softener based on the medium salt dosage of 9 lbs of salt per cubic foot while Sears tends to quote the hardness removal capacity of their softeners based on maximum salt dosage of 15 lbs per cu ft of resin. It looks like you're getting a larger capacity softener from Sears but you're really not. Then Sears sets them up to a lower salt dose so they seem frugal. Has your brother ever tested his soft water for hardness just before regeneration... bet it shows hard cause hardness is leaking through.

Both your softener and your brother's are far too small for the water conditions. A correctly sized softener should be regenerating every 6-7-8 days and not more frequently unless there's iron to treat. You're both wasting water and salt which is money.

The more often the softener regenerates, especially on chlorinated municipal water, the shorter the resin life.

4 people x 60 gpd (average use) x 25 gpg = 6000 grains per day that have to be treated x 7 days = 42000 grains to be treated each week.

Your softener has .8 cu ft of resin and even at the maximum salt dose of 15 lbs/cu ft will remove only 24,500 grains of hardness so it will regenerate way too frequently and I haven't included a reserve yet. With reserve calculated you're going to regenerate about every 3 days.

At a high salt dose of 12 lbs/cu ft, which is probably what you're set at now, the hardness removal capacity drops to 23,000 so that's where you get 2 days between regenerations with reserve. Either way, you are wasting enough water and salt to pay for a new 5600 Econominder that is correctly sized in a pretty short time.

Based on the info you posted (and more info is really needed to be exact) you should have a 2.5 cu ft softener NOT a .8 cu ft softener.

If you don't have the manual for your Fleck 5600 Econominder click here to download the manual

Although, would I need a new ecominder or just a new larger resin tank & resin? I already read the manual a few times. Not the easiest thing to decipher. I had called Fleck direct and got assistance w/ re-programming.

I can see the waste of water and figure around 3000 gallons or so a year, based on around 20gal per regeneration.

But would you really be wasting more salt? I would think the amount of salt is based on the grain capacity of the resin tank. So even a tank 3 times as large, lets say 48000 grain vs. my 24000 grain wold need to use 3 times the amount of salt per recharge correct (36# vs 12#)? Its just that its recharging once a week vs. three times a week. If not how does the larger tank save more salt?

Also, now that I am typing this, would the water savings be all that great between the two? If the salt requirements are higher then wouldn't the amount of water to dissolve the salt into brine be that much higher? I would also think that the amount of water used to rinse and flush the resin beads would be that much more as well. Hmm. As I said, unless I am looking at this all wrong.

I do remember that when I spoke with Fleck I did asked if there would be a benefit to having a larger capacity resin tank. I thought he said it would be negligible and that I would probably save about $50 a year.

Thoughts?

First thing... you can't use a Fleck 5600 on a 2.5 cu ft softener. You'd need a Fleck 2510 or a Fleck 7000 control valve.

Second... a .8 cu ft softener has such a low SFR that you are likely getting hardness leaking through and not enjoying soft water 100% of the time.

Third... if this undersized softener has been in service for 10 years regenerating every 2 days the resin is probably depleted or getting very close.

You're using more than 20 gallons of water to regenerate so your calculations are not accurate.

You softener is too small in hardness removal capacity, it is operating inefficiently, and has an insufficient SFR.

You can get 46,000 out of 2,5 cu ft of resin at 6 lbs/cu ft or 15 lbs per regeneration once a week versus the 12 lbs you are using every 2 days or 3+ times a week now. That 36 lbs wasted now versus 15 lbs of salt a week with a correctly sized and setup softener. Understand now?

The price of softeners has come down quite a bit in 10 years so it's more cost effective to buy a new, correctly sized softener for your water conditions water usage.

I am confused. Why 2.5cu ft? A 2 cu Ft shows 64000 grain and can still use the ecominder according to a bunch of websites out there. This is more than the 42,000 grain amount you came up with above. Its also within 75% of the capacity of 64000 grain tank. I would think the 5600 ecominder is the same, except for the valves that are larger for the larger tank for rinse and backflow. Shows in the service manual that it can the larger diam tanks.

a 2.5cu ft is a 80,000 grain size and that I see with this model I need the bigger control unit like the 2510.

But why isn't a 2 cu ft enough at 64000 grains and why are you then saying I can't use the 5600?

I know that my softner trying to soften the max capacity at 24000 utilizes almost as much salt as the larger capacity softeners but I can't wrap around my head why the larger the capacity, almost the same amount of salt is needed to regenerate the beads?

I did purchase this from the local main water softener co at the time so I guess the undersized unit was done to increase their sales on the salt delivery, if you used their service like most people do.

A 5600 can be used on tanks up to a max of 12" diameter which is 2.0 cu ft, but a 5600 can be iffy on a 12" tank if the SFR of the plumbing is not up to snuff. There are flow considerations during brining and rinsing for proper regeneration.

The arithmetic says that 2.5 cu ft will give the required K at the most efficient salt dose (6 lbs/cu ft) for the optimal regeneration interval of 7-8 days. It's chemistry and physics understand it or not.

By the time you buy 2 cu ft of resin, a gravel under bed, a new distributor tube, and a resin tank you'll be very close to the cost of a new softener. You can sell the softener you have for something.

You are confused because you don't know. You came here for help and you are getting accurate info. I'm not going to tell you what you want to hear but I'll tell you the facts and back them up with the math to prove it.

BTW, are you on a minicipal water system or a well?

With respect... you bought the wrong size softener 10 years ago and wasted salt and water all this time... if you're going to do the same thing again let us know how it works out.

Thanks for the reply. Just trying to better understand how this whole sizing works. Just that on about 3 or 4 sites that I have done the formulas or filled out forms, it never came up anywhere close to the 2.5cu ft. Only questioning since the price really seems to jump from 2 - 2.5 cu ft.

As you indicated, its a physics / Chemistry thing and over my head :).

What is SFR?

I am on city water but in our town the water is mainly drawn from well/underground aquifer for the municipal supply. I think additional supply if needed is from another water company.

If it should be 64000 grain tank (Not sure if this should be a single tank or one of those dual tanks) which models, tank, resins do you recommend? I assume my brine tank will be sufficient. Its measures approx 13x42.
Where can I find the best deal? I see from sites that at this capacity it can cost allot of $$$. Are there features or benefits to these other controllers that mine currently does not provide?

One other question is if/how this larger tank affects water flow (restriction) and water pressure.

Thanks again for your assistance. I really appreciate it. I am just trying to be more educated as to the reasonings. As you can see I have been given false info, which hs happened to me on other things, and I now make it my mission to get all the facts/info so that I can make sure I have the right products.

SFR is Service Flow Rate and is considered in two ways when sizing a softener.

One aspect is the SFR of the resin in the tank. The specific amount of resin in a specific size tank with a specific empty area above the resin (freeboard). If that SFR is exceeded then hardness will leak though.

The other aspect is the SFR of the plumbing requirements of the home. # of bathrooms types and number of appliances, fixtures and such including high water use things like a jet tub or Jacuzzi.

In general, the larger the resin tank, the more the volume of resin, and the less it effects water flow and pressure... SFR of the resin in the tank, remember?

I've already told you what size softener you require so your brine tank question is irrelevant and it's old enough that it doesn't have the Fleck 2310 safety float assembly which is desired.

As for you not getting the correct answers when you cruise the web that is the way it is and that's why these forum exist. I can only assure you that you are getting the correct answers here.

The advantage to the more zoot capri control valves like the Fleck 7000 is that it's really easy to program the electronics and they can really be fine tuned for efficiency. The venerable old 5600 Econominder is still a great valve but it lacks the ability to change regeneration times and it doesn't have calendar override so you can't change the # of days between regen and other thing.

If you're looking for the BEST DEAL bear in mind that buying over the net there is no service by definition and that all the help you'll get is move it closer to the phone so I can see it if you even get that. Comfortable with that?

Since cost is important to you stick with a single resin tank softener.

I'd recommenced that you shop local INDEPENDENT water treatment professionals to establish a baseline for price. You may find a local independent pro that will sell you an industry standard Fleck based softener with installation for not all that much more than the web and you'll get a parts and labor warranty. They may or may not agree with my sizing but you tell them that you want a 2.5 cu ft softener.

Well I initially did shop an independent water treatment professional. This is basically the one major company everyone uses. Aside from you culligans or homedepot, lowes, etc. They are the ones who installed this system for me when I moved in 10 years ago. So I ask about online, since I have reviewed what is involved, I have done my own plumbing in a majority of the house so I thought I might be able to handle it. Doesn't seem overly complicated.

My brine tank did come with the saftey float assembly. Actually this is a part now that is not functioning properly and has set off this whole water softening questioning. This was the third time that my brine tank has oveflowed and floded in the basement. This tends to happen if the salt gets depleted in the brine tank. Which then of course prompted to find out if I should be using this much salt. Since I have taken apart the valve on the side of the unit to see if there was a clog previously and saw it was all clear. The issue was the check valve and saftey float assembly. I see on the brine tanks for sale there is a perforated platform that keeps the salt off the floor. I do not have this in mine and I think this is also part of the problem. If the salt runs low and you get the disintegrated stuff on the bottom it is being drawn into the intake/check vlave and its clogging, since this valve is on the bottom of the tank in the 4" white tube. Thus no water is being drawn from the brine tank at this point. The cycle continues and then fills the tank adding more water. The float is also not working right so the water line never shuts off and viola flood. I had ordered a new float and grid/platform for my brine tank so this should solve those issues going foward. So I do not need a new brine tan I am now focusing on the controller and resin tank.

I will contact the people that softner dealer that put in my system and asking them pricing based on the recommendations you mentioned. But I did have a few more questions to see if this affects anything.

1) I know all of the calculations are done based on approx gallons required per person per day. I would think that a more accurate measurement would be to look at the water bill for a given qtr and check actual uage and then average it for a daily usage. If I look at my bill for the first part of the year (Jan-April, which is more of a accurate usage since the other ones so far this year overlap the summer, when my kids are not home thus usage is less) it shows I used 16 cu ft. This equates to 11,968 gallons. To be more safe I would add an extra cu 748 gallons since if my real usage was 16.9 cu ft it wouldn't be reflected since they only bill in whole units. This equals 12,716 gallons over a 89 day period. This avg 143 gallons per day for our family. The latest bill I got from July until Oct shows only 13 cu ft which makes sense given the fact my kids were gone for a month and a half so less laundry, showers, dishwashing, etc. Highest bill I have seen is back in 08 for the jan-apr period and that was 18 cu ft (13,464 gal - 151gal/day). Not sure if this was before or after I installed the higher efficiency front loading washing machine. But, would using this usage be a better number to use to figure softner size vs the 60gal per person which equals the 240gal? Makes a big difference in terms of softner size. Evan at 18 cu ft you would need then 3775 grains x 7 days recharge cycle = 26425 vs. the 6000 x 7 = 42000. I am just throwing this out there to know if this is helpfull or would alter anything in terms of the recommendation. **NOTE: These bills are only for all inside water that goes through the softner. My outside plumbing and sprinkler system is on a whole different meter and water line.

2) I also wanted to point out that the water line comming into the house and the softner is 3/4". Not sure if this will matter in terms of the SFR and the recommendations or tank size.

3) I do have a multi-jet shower in my bathroom but think that is only draws 3gpm. I think normal restricted shower heads are 1.5gpm and the 3 body sprays are only .5gpm I am pretty sure. I am wondering though if the size of my current resin tank affects the flow/speed that water comes out my tub spout thus taking a long time to fill my tub? Or is this unrelated.

4) I am planning on remodeling my kitchen. Plan is to put in a Miele DW. From what I have read on the Appliances forum and Kitchen forum is that people have had etching issues with the DW hooked up to softened water. The best appproach was to use the hard water hooked up to the machine and use the Miele with the built in softner instead so it can automatically soften the water. The model that I am looking at does have the built in softner.

Thanks.

Believe it or not, the formula I use works industry wide and works out pretty close to ideal. You want to split hairs and counts cu ft of water so you can buy a smaller softener then just keep what you have and keep throwing money down the drain... literally.

A 2.5 cube softener using half the salt (per 7-8 day regeneration) your grossly undersized softener has been using for 10 years and regenerating at an interval roughly 4 times longer than you are currently regenerating will save you money over what you are doing now.

If you install a 2.5 cu ft softener it will be correctly sized for the average population in that home. You may use less water but the softener will be correctly sized. If and when you sell that home the softener will be a value add to the buyer.

3/4" plumbing is what you have and is perfectly fine.

Curious, have you been routinely cleaning out the brine tank on an annual basis this last 10 years? I ask because Fleck 2310 safety floats have proven to be very reliable with very minimal maintenance.

And FYI, I checked 5 online softener seller web site this AM and the sizing calculator at every web site had a glaring omission... none of those 5 asked how many people? So, I ask you how are they calculating the correct size of a softener without an idea of the water usage?

I have no dog in this fight nor am I looking to sell you anything but I have repeatedly told you what you need to buy so I have nothing further to add.

Let us know what you decide so others can learn from your decision.

It seems that you do not understand the operation of the 2310 safety float.

The amount of water placed into the brine tank to make the required amount of brine is controlled by the control valve (5600 in your case) and NOT the float valve.

The 2310 does two things... FIRST, it has an air check so during the brining stage of regeneration once all the brine is sucked out the air check closes and air is prevented from being sucked into the brine line.

SECOND, the float only acts as a safety device to prevent overflowing of the brine tank IF the control valve fails to control the correct amount of water being sent to the brine tank.

In theory, if the control valve is operating properly then the float never comes into action.

You have a problem in the 5600 not the 2310.

Actually I do understand how the float works.

You said it yourself that the float comes into play to prevent overflowing of the brine tank if the control valve fails.

So if the valve did fail, then the float should stop the water flow but it does not and the water drips out the area around the threads holding the float assembly to the brine tank and the hole for the clear tubing. . So the float safety failed since it allowed the water level to rise much higher than the float.

Second, is that I have been down this road twice before and if I empty the tank, clean the inlet tube and air check valve etc then its fine. It happens if the tank runs basically out of salt leaving just the white soft undissolved salt on the bottom. But if during the brine sucking phase the air check is clogged or the intake is clogged thus preventing any brine from being sucked out then the water level will not drop but when it goes back to fill the tank the volume of water gets compounded and eventually reaches the level of the float .

I do agree that many of the site do not give all the info. although I really did not find any that did not give you a formula of how to size the softener. What I see that can be misleading is that many aren't showing grain capacity needed based on a seven day requirement but more are only 5 days.

I did find one that I had gone to before for some info that did calcuate for 7 days. http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/water_softener_sizing.htm

It also uses 75gal per person vs. the more realistic 60 you gave. In their sizing they say you need a 64,000 grain capacity. I get this. In your original post you said I needed 42000 grains to be treated each week. What I then can't understand is why is your recommendation for almost double the capacity for 2.5 cu ft thus a 80,000 grain water softener? This what I am trying to understand.

I goofed... the disease of too much water in your brine tank is a failure of the 5600. An associated problem is that the float is not the fail-safe it should be in the event the 5600 malfunctions.

Make NO mistake... if the water overflows the brine tank and the float has to act then the 5600 has a problem and after 10 years of regenerating every two days it is not surprising that it does cause it;s been working about 3 times harder (more often) than it should have been.

You'd need to repair, probably a complete rebuild, the 5600 and also correct the float problem. you'll most likely need a piston and seal kit and a brine valve piston.

Routine (annual) cleaning of the brine tank and air check is a solution to the mushing and clogging problem you describe. Since you're regenerating at the accelerated rate of every two days you'd need to increase the frequency of the preventive maintenance.

All 5 of the first sites I looked at gave a formula or a chart but NONE considered the # of people. They were only concerned with the hardness and iron then pointed to a size.

You have now used up your allotment of FREE ADVICE... please forward a signed PO o continue ;)

Po. No problem you've earned it ;).

What do you mean you goofed?

I was looking for a explaination for the last part I said above.

I goofed by not saying two posts ago that the overflow was a 5600 problem and that the 2310 was also malfunctioning.

If you reread the thread the 42,000 was for 7 days and without a reserve calculated in.

I'd set up for 8 day regen and including reserve that would be roughly 54,000 and to get the best salt efficiency 2.5 cubes is the choice. Using 2.0 resin to get 54,000 will use more water and more salt and that costs you more money every single week. Add it up... getting a 2.5 cu ft softener is the cost effective and efficient choice and therefore in words of great importance to you... THE BEST DEAL.

Adios...

Ok now I get it when you lay it out like that. Before it was hard to understand. I'm a little slow ok :)

ok last questIon I hope. I know you said to regen after 8 days. Do you set the timer on the 7000 to regenerate after a certain number of days or is it done by water flow after a certain number of gallons?

I will ask my local dealer for a price tomorrow. I'll post and give me your thoughts.

Ok so the water softener company was here today to take a look at what I had and give me a price. I told him that what I was looking for a 2.5cu ft *80,000 grain) water softener. Was looking to keep regeneration frequency low and salt usage to the 6# per cu ft min as your suggestion. Since they do a ton of installations in the area, they said the water is about 22gains. I said that we measured about 25 when I tested the other week. Said that can be the case since the towns water comes from various wells and an outside water company for supplemental needs and said it will fluctuate. As you indicated, he said that regeneration would be about 8 days based on 4 people but subject to water usage.

When I spoke with the first rep for the company, been there over 30 years, and mentioned my specs with the fleck 7000 valve, he said that ever since Fleck was bought out, they have had quality problems with the control units.i.e. quality is not the same. Not sure if there is any truth to this. He said that based on my 3/4" incoming water line that he recommended a Clack control unit. Now when the rep came out I did not mention any brand of control unit. I wanted to see what he would suggest. He gave me a quote for $1849 + tax & permit for the unit, new brine tank (which based on the new parts I have I really don't need) and 5 80# bags of salt as well as running a new drain line (Not difficult due to the drop ceiling). He left me with their brochure, where everything is private labeled with their model numbers but you can tell who's control units they are by the pictures. He priced this based on the same Fleck Ecominder control valve for the price above.

I guess it could also be possible that the brochures are old or generic and they now use a comparable clack branded unit to the same Ecominer with Demand Meter initiated regen like I have today.

I'd opt for a Fleck 2510 SXT control valve.

I hate it when softener sellers say "I install all around here all the time and I KNOW the water". That is not the mark of a water treatment professional... more like plumbers who sell water softeners.

I'd look for quotes from other independent water treatment pros pros cause running the drain line not withstanding $1850 is a lot for what they're installing.

In the interim I wanted to get my softened water back. I ordered a 5600 rebuild kit for $58.00 (Piston & seals). Got it today and installed it. However, when I turned the bypass valves off the water kept flowing into the brine tank. I then took out the new brine piston and saw that the o-ring that should be below the brine piston was missing. Must have washed out disintegrated at some point. I will order a new one but I managed to get another o-ring off the old piston. This worked like a charm. Turned the bypass valves on an no more filling of the tank. Nothing like a stupid part that costs less than a buck to screw everything up. Well at least the valve is all rebuilt :). Gives me time to explore my options.