Did your Vet say if it will only prevent the twist (torsion)? They can bloat without the torsion I believe.

Bloat happens in Goldens, although I don't believe as often as deeper-chested dogs like your. I almost lost an older boy to it years ago and he did have his stomach tacked, but as part of emergency surgery. I personally wouldn't do it as a preventative in my breed, but maybe its feasible in others.

I'll be interested to hear the responses and if it's recommended.

Is your 4 month old puppy showing any signs?

Everyone and their brother say a breed is prone to something, it depends on the dog. Every dog is different the same as every human is different.

I wouldn't rush my human or animal kids off to surgery, at 4 months old, on the off chance they inherited some gene.

Purdue has done a number of studies on bloat (causes, frequency, prophylactic gastroplexy 'tacking'). I've attached a link to their site. One of the results of the study that few folks are aware of is that a raised feeding bowl was found causative in increasing the frequency of bloat. (Lot of folks still think it decreases the frequency.)

Here is a link that might be useful: Bloat Research

I have been involved with a breed prone to bloat since 1963 and have had mixed emotion about doing preventative tacking (gastropexy). Many of my friends routinely do it and others refuse to put their animals through, what they say is un-necessary, surgery. Tacking does not prevent bloat. It prevents torsion and buys you time to get your dog to the vet. There is no rhyme nor reason why dogs bloat but there are many opinions. Same with ways to prevent it. However, genetics do play a role as it has a tendancy to run in certain bloodlines. It is something that is life threatening and can happen to mixed-breed or pure-bred. The youngest I have had knowledge of that bloated was a 4 month old golden.

This is not a surgery that is done by every vet. It has to be done correctly to make it effective. Some vets are also doing the laparoscopic gastropexy. Easier on the dogs. In my area, there are 3 that do the laparoscopic that I am aware of. 2 are board certified surgeons. The 3rd one does the most as he routinely does it on all the danes that go through one of our local rescue groups.

Last April my 6 month old puppy torsioned. During the surgery to correct this, the emergency vet did a tack. It was touch and go for a few days because of the severe condition of the stomach but he pulled through and is just fine. Last June, my 3 year old bloated but did not torsion. Two weeks later, I chose to do a preventative laparoscopic tack on him. This past October, another one went through a spleen torsion. The emergency vet tacked her stomach while she had her opened up.

The two littermates to the puppy both were tacked on my recommendation as I was the breeder of this litter.

This is a decision only you can make. It can be a costly surgery but it can also save the life of your dog down the road. The vet mentioned above that does the most of these surgeries, charges around $500.00. The other two are $1,600.00 and $1,800.00. The latter two prices are about what you would pay for emergency bloat surgery.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

Jan

After our mastiff died of bloat I did a lot of research. You might want to ask the vet which way of doing a stomach tack he/she recommends, why, and how often he/she's done the surgery. I understand that there are at least 3 different techniques and their effectiveness is debated within the veterinary community. I believe that the vet who specializes in mastiffs and in bloat near us tacks the stomach to the ribs. However, my understanding is the same as eandhl's -- dogs can still bloat and die without the torsion.

FWIW, all specialists I talked to told me they would be very reluctant to tack the stomach of a mastiff puppy because of the problems it might cause as the animal grew. They also mentioned that bloat-prone dogs could have their stomach tacked and be put on drugs (like Reglan, I think) that are supposed to help prevent bloat.

If you can find one in your area, a vet who specializes in both emergency surgery (particularly bloat) and in the large breeds (mastiffs, St. Bernards, etc.) is a great source of information and experience.

All the best to you and your puppy and whatever you decide.

First there is no history in the family that is a major hurdle. Next there are things you can do to prevent bloat. Feed your dog smaller meals throughout the day. A cup in the morning, a cup around 4 pm, a cup around 8pm and another before you go to bed. This is how I feed my Mastiff mix. The next thing to do to prevent bloat is to be sure not to feed your dog a heavy meal before taking it out for a long hike or a run to the dog park...Your dog should lead a healthy and happy bloatfree life as a result. I think stomach tacking should be used as a last resort especially when the surgery comes with a number of life threatening issues which are as bad or worse than bloat.

Are labs prone to this? Also I read the Purdue research and they mentioned raised food bowls being a factor - I'm not quite sure what they mean by that. Does that mean the metal kind with a rim that goes down to the floor?

Raised food bowls are ones that are up on a platform so the dog does not bend its neck down to eat. Dogs that eat from raised bowls tend to swallow a lot of air, making them more prone to bloat. Other factors that increase the incidence of bloat are male gender, being underweight, eating one meal daily, eating rapidly, and having a fearful temperment.

Breeds that are particularly susceptible are German Shepherd dogs, Great Danes (about 30% will bloat), Saint Bernards, Rottweilers, Labrador retrievers, Alaskan malamutes, and other large deep-chested dogs. Rarely reported in dachshunds and Pekingese too.

There are several surgical techniques that can be used, the most common being muscular flap and belt-loop (when done preventatively), although some surgeons are now doing it laproscopically. I am not aware of any considerations regarding age at time of surgery except normal risks with anesthesia and differences in wound healing. Most surgeons do prophylactic gastropexies at the time of spay/neuter around 6 months of age.

Gastropexy does not prevent "bloat." It only prevents stomach torsion, which is the fastest life-threatening complication of gastric dilation. That said, the incidence of a dog that had a gastropexy becoming bloated is very small, and it is less of a problem than a full-on GDV.

I've had Rotties for the last 12 years and none of them have ever had GDV. However they are not as prone to it as Saint Bernards. I do think that following the recommendations such as feeding small meals at least twice a day, not elevating food and water bowls, not allowing heavy exercise 1-2 hours before or after eating, and trying to make the dog eat slowly do help. I also believe that properly trained and socialized dogs tend to not be as high-strung or fearful, which helps prevent GDV.

If you are really concerned and can afford it, definitely consider getting the pexy done. I know that if I had a Dane, I'd do it, no doubt about it. Other breeds I'm not so convinced, especially considering my track record with Rotties. I didn't know if any of my dogs had relatives that bloated, most are rescues. But I rarely worry about it. I just follow the recommendations and so far, so good.

Here is a link that might be useful: Risk assessment for GDV

meghane - stupid question, but how does whether the head is up or down related to swallowing air?

From some people's whose opinions i very much respect the word is not to do this as a prevenative unless the dog has bloated before, and unless the dog is known to have it from first generation and or other siblings. In which all of those dogs should be altered. It's a major operation and not to be taken lightly, having a history of bloat should be part of the decision making.
I also would prefer if one is going to do this to have it done after the dog is growing because growth can loosen the tacking.
For pure bred dogs being sold as companion dogs with no known history of bloat "NO" again because it will not help track and therefore identify bloat in lines which long term can hopefully help find a cure.
However on the flip side of this,many people still have no clue what bloat is and therefore do not know how to avoid it. Personally I would like to see all vets, breeders and shelters for that matter show some responsibility to inform clients with literature what exactly it is and how to look out for it and clearly inform the client on the seriousness of timing should any of the signs be present.
My own opinions of bloat are to be very careful of any digestive disorders including those in which diet causes excessive gas and or flatuence problems, be aware of dogs getting into anything or having any condition which could add to bacterial overgrowth.Adding digestive enzymes to the diet, feeding smaller meals verses one large meal, and keeping a dog from eating it's own stools are all very helpful pointers on keeping a dogs digestive track healthy. Other factors are no exercise shortly before and after meals, and no large amounts of water shortly before and after meals either. I also don't believe in free feeding at all, and although raised dishes are thought to be a factor in bloat, it should be known that it depends on how raised the dish is. A few inches up for a large dog is OK as many larger dogs can have swallowing difficulty when kibble is on the floor. My dog's dish is up 6 inches and he is 25inches at the withers. Anyway just my 2 cents based on 50 years of having 2 breeds prone to bloat..knocking on wood never had it!.

onyxdaily, just a few more notes to add to what's been said...when I did bloat research it was also recommended to improve digestive tract functioning by

1) removing the grains wheat and corn from the diet because of the accompanying gas that digesting them produces, and

2) increasing the level of sulphur in the diet, since in bloat an imbalance in the nitrogen/sulphur ratio was found (i.,e., nitrogen levels got way too high). In line with this finding, researchers noted that back when dogs were fed mostly raw meat, which is very high in sulphur, and when the raw meat meal was fed separately from the grains, the incidence of bloat was significantly lower.

Seems to me that disinfecting food and water bowls after each use improves digestive tract functioning, so I'd do that also.

Based on personal experience, and on the practical side, I'd also recommend that you locate an emergency vet and or clinic you trust to handle bloat and make a practice trip there when there is no emergency. From what you say about your pup's history, odds are you will never need to go there for real, but being well prepared may help you worry less. (Other well-prepared details might include having a big stretcher or tarp around and having a prearranged emergency signal for your significant other.)

Again, all the best. Since you know what bloat is and are clearly taking steps to deal with the possibility, however remote, I think you are way ahead of many other owners.

cindyxeus, just fabulous that you've had 50 bloat-free years! I also wish that breeders, vets, and shelters informed everyone even CONSIDERING getting a bloat-prone breed about the warning signs and symptoms. Then again, bloat is so horrific that explaining it even briefly makes many people just tune out the information...

Some articles on GDV:

Non-Dietary Risk Factors for Gastric Dilatation-Volvulus in Large and Giant Breed Dogs

J Am Vet Med Assoc 217[10]:1492-1499 Nov 15'00 Prospective Study 15 Refs
Lawrence T. Glickman, VMD, DrPH; Nita W. Glickman, MS, MPH; Diana B. Schellenberg, MS; Malathi Raghavan, DVM, MS; Tana Lee, BA
Dept of Veterinary Pathobiology and the Center for the Human Animal Bond, School of Veterinary Medicine, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907-1243

OBJECTIVE: To identify non-dietary risk factors for gastric dilatation-volvulus (GDV) in large breed and giant breed dogs.

DESIGN: Prospective cohort study.

ANIMALS: 1,637 dogs > 6 months old of the following breeds: Akita, Bloodhound, Collie, Great Dane, Irish Setter, Irish Wolfhound, Newfoundland, Rottweiler, Saint Bernard, Standard Poodle, and Weimaraner.

PROCEDURE: Owners of dogs that did not have a history of GDV were recruited at dog shows, and the dog's length and height and the depth and width of its thorax and abdomen were measured. Information concerning the dog's medical history, genetic background, personality, and diet was obtained from the owners, and owners were contacted by mail and telephone at approximately 1-year intervals to determine whether dogs had developed GDV or died. Incidence of GDV, calculated on the basis of dog-years at risk for dogs that were or were not exposed to potential risk factors, was used to calculate the relative risk of GDV.

RESULTS & CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Cumulative incidence of GDV during the study was 6% for large breed and giant breed dogs. Factors significantly associated with an increased risk of GDV were increasing age, having a first-degree relative with a history of GDV, having a faster speed of eating, and having a raised feeding bowl. Approximately 20 and 52% of cases of GDV among the large breed and giant breed dogs, respectively, were attributed to having a raised feed bowl.

-Just so everyone knows where I got that information about the raised bowls. As cindyxeus previously stated, it doesn't mention *how* raised, and I'd assume that they were talking about VERY raised, so the dog doesn't have to lean over at all. Nor were raised bowls ever found to be a *cause* of bloat, just that dogs who had bloated had been fed off raised bowls. Correlation, not causation. But I certainly wouldn't take the risk unless my dogs had any medical problems (megaesophagus, cervical disk disease, etc.) that forced them to eat off raised bowls.

As far as swallowing more air when eating from raised platforms: Dogs that eat off the floor have to take the food into their mouth and then CLOSE their mouth so food doesn't drop out. Dogs that eat from very raised platforms do not have to close their mouth, so they supposedly swallow more air. BTW, vets that recommend feeding off raised platforms are at risk for being sued should a dog bloat because this information is very well known.

Another reference with laproscopic gastropexy:

"Gastropexy in dogs susceptible to gastric dilatation
J Am Vet Med Assoc. December 2002;221(11):1576-81.
Clarence A Rawlings1, Mary B Mahaffey, Shannon Bement, Chanda Canalis
1 Department of Small Animal Medicine, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Georgia, Athens, GA 30602-7390, USA.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To determine long-term outcome associated with laparoscopic-assisted gastropexy in prevention of gastric dilatation-volvulus (GDV) in susceptible dogs and to evaluate use of laparoscopy to correct GDV. DESIGN: Prospective study. ANIMALS: 25 client-owned large-breed dogs. PROCEDURE: 23 dogs susceptible to GDV were referred as candidates for elective gastropexy. These dogs had a history of treatment for gastric dilatation, clinical signs of gastric dilatation, or family members with gastric dilatation. Laparoscopic-assisted gastropexy was performed. One year after surgery, abdominal ultrasonography was performed to evaluate the attachment of the stomach to the abdominal wall. Two dogs with GDV were also treated with laparoscopic-assisted derotation of the stomach and gastropexy. RESULTS: None of the dogs developed GDV during the year after gastropexy, and all 20 dogs examined ultrasonographically had an intact attachment. Another dog was euthanatized at 11.5 months for unrelated problems. Two dogs with GDV successfully underwent laparoscopic-assisted gastropexy after the stomach was repositioned. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Laparoscopic-assisted gastropexy resulted in a persisting attachment between the stomach and abdominal wall, an absence of GDV development, and few complications. Dogs with a high probability for development of GDV should be considered candidates for minimally invasive gastropexy. Carefully selected dogs with GDV can be treated laparoscopically."

If I had a male dog with high risk of GDV, I'd do the laproscopic surgery at time of neuter. For a female who is being spayed, I'd extend the spay incision and add the extra 10-15 minutes for the pexy at the same time.

And to reiterate, there is NO age constraint- no need to wait to do a gastropexy. Once the stomach is properly tacked to the abdominal wall, it will take a lot more than a good growth spurt to rip it off. In fact, I've not heard of a failing gastropexy since they stopped doing the tube pexy, no matter what age the surgery was done. People who say not to do it in growing animals probably are not experienced enough surgeons to do the surgery in the first place, IMHO.

Along the lines of what cindyxeus mentioned regarding diet, I found this article:

"DIETARY RISK FACTORS FOR GASTRIC DILATATION VOLVULUS (GDV) IN HIGH-RISK DOG BREEDS

A nested case-control study was conducted among 1,634 dogs with complete diet information that participated in a 5-year prospective study of GDV at Purdue University. Cases were 106 dogs that developed GDV while controls were 212 dogs without GDV that were frequency matched to cases by year of GDV onset. Proportionate energy consumed from major food types (i.e., dry, canned, semi-moist, unprocessed, table-foods, etc.) and from carbohydrates was determined using owner-reported food frequencies and amounts of foods consumed, food labels, published references, and nutrient databases. Dogs were categorized as consuming either a low volume or high volume of food based on the median cups of food fed per kg body weight per meal, and as consuming dry foods containing predominately either plant or animal protein and either calcium-rich or calcium-poor ingredients. The presence or absence of preservatives in dry food was also noted. Using multivariate logistic regression methods, dogs fed a larger volume of food per meal (i.e., >0.11 cups/kg body weight per meal in one meal a day or >0.06 cups/kg body weight in two meals a day) were at significantly increased risk of GDV, regardless of the number of meals fed per day; the highest risk of GDV was for dogs fed a large volume of food once daily. Increasing energy intake from carbohydrates was not associated with GDV risk. Consumption of dry food containing a calcium-rich meat meal ingredient among the first 4 ingredients on the label was associated with a significantly decreased risk of GDV while moistening of dry foods, especially those containing citric acid preservative, was associated with a significantly increased risk of GDV. The presence of plant protein such as soy, corn, or wheat, among the first 4 ingredients was unassociated with GDV risk. There was an insufficient number of dogs in the study consuming baked dry foods (0 cases and 9 control dogs) to compare their GDV risk with dogs consuming extruded dry dog foods. These findings indicate that some previously recommended and popular dietary interventions to prevent GDV are probably contraindicated, such as moistening of dry dog foods."

It's true, nobody knows what causes GDV. We know some risk factors and can avoid some of them.

30-50% of dogs that have GDV die, EVEN WITH TREATMENT. If they don't get treatment, it's always fatal. Which means that even after you find your dog suffering from bloat and rush him to the vet, spend $2000 or more for emergency surgery, many of them die. I found a couple of references that Saint Bernards are #2 risk for GDV, right after the Great Dane. #3 is Weimeraner. Given those odds, I'd certainly consider the gastropexy. I'd lean more towards it if my schedule was such that I wasn't home after feeding the dog for at least an hour, or if the dog was kept outdoors or otherwise able to run after eating, or if it was high-strung. But again, the risks of an individual dog should be discussed with the vet.

And for the record, a dog with early GDV will appear nauseated- licking lips, salivating, retching- but will produce very little vomit. You may or may not notice abdominal distension especially early on. If treatment is withheld by >6 hours, the prognosis is grim. Older dogs are more at risk than younger dogs, which is bad because older dogs usually have other medical problems that make them poor surgical candidates. Add shock from GDV to that and you have a real bad situation.

As cindyxeus mentioned, reducing risk factors such as diet, exercise, training and socialization, etc. can be done by everyone, and probably should, as *any* dog can bloat, not just high risk breeds. And vets ARE most responsible for relaying this information to clients.

"Also I read the Purdue research and they mentioned raised food bowls being a factor - I'm not quite sure what they mean by that. "

Many breed rescue groups and a lot of vets and vet techs(but not Meghane) still promote using a raised feeder for deep chested dogs to avoid bloat. Research has not caught up with them. A raised feeder is simply a way to elevate a bowl above floor level either by a special stand that is sold specifically to hold the food bowls, or by a milk crate, footstool or any other perch. In the Purdue studies the raised feeder increased the incidence of bloat.

By the way, all of the Purdue bloat studies are linked in my earlier post.

oops I forgot to add that temperment is also important. Dogs that get easily stressed out, nervous or fearful are also at a higher risk.
Also Meghane do you happen to have any literature on what you said about it not being a risk on a younger dog that hasn't fully grown? Thanks as I have been under the assumption it shouldn't be done on a growing pup.
Also I do want to add that my dog's mother died of bloat complications. She was tacked after bloating a first time, but within a week bloated again and died on route to the ER. Pathology report came back she had gone septic due from complications from the first bloat.

I thought I had included this link but I just went back and see it didn't show. Anyway here is a link I've had for a couple years now. It's about some research that had been revisited about a possible link to potassium deficiency and bloat. Interesting article. Not sure what ever became of the reasearch though.

Here is a link that might be useful: bloat and possible potassium deficiency relationship

I got discussing this issue on another board and I just was informed about this study
PLEASE CROSSPOST To anyone who may have GSDs or clients with GSDs
>
> !!!ATTENTION BREEDERS!!!
> DNA MARKER HAS BEEN DISCOVERED FOR BLOAT/TORSION
>
> While that day has not come yet, the owners of German Shepherd dogs
> have the rare opportunity to help make this dream come true.
>
> In the February 2007 issue of the REVIEW, an article appeared written
> by Dr Mathew T. Pletcher of The Scripps Research Institute. Dr.
> Pletcher is conducting a research project on the behavioral genetics
> in herding dogs. While watching our dogs in the pen with sheep,
> haven't most of us asked ourselves "how do they know how to do that?"
> How does that instinct survive generations without practice?
> Fascinating subject.
>
> In addition, Dr. Pletcher has agreed to add a component to his
> research. He has agreed to look for a DNA marker for bloat/torsion. In
> GERMAN SHEPHERDS! What does this mean for our dogs? The rare
> opportunity to find a DNA marker specific to our breed. A marker will
> allow breeders to breed away from this disease, eventually eradicating
> it all together.
>
> How do you participate? If you have a dog that has survived
> bloat/torsion or has had a relative (dead or alive) bloat/torsion
> contact Dr Pletcher or his assistant Laura Schultz. Have a 5
> Generation pedigree available to send with the blood sample and
> medical history on your dog and their relatives, as much as you know.
> Then make an appointment with your Vet for a blood draw. The Scripps
> Research Institute does not charge for your participation.
> Please also note that all information is STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL. The
> names of dogs or owners are not released to anyone.
>
> Information for your Vet:
> 5ml blood in an EDTA tube marked with the Dog's name, AKC #, Breed,
> Sex. If the dog has been sick (even if healthy now please include any
> diagnostic tests. Send samples to
>
> Dr. Mathew T Pletcher
> The Scripps Research Institute " Florida
> Building RF-1 Room 110
> 5353 Parkside Drive
> Jupiter, FL33458
>
> Please let them know samples are on their way.
> pletcher@... Or Laura Schultz laura@...
>
> NOTE: Oddly, the message I received has only these truncated emails.
> I *think* it would be pletcher@scripps.edu or laura@scripps.edu but no
> guarantees - sorry. Google turned up The Scripps Research Institute
> at http://www.scripps.edu/
>

Traci Mulligan
Rebholzer Dobermans
Elegance United With Working Ability~since 1973.
www.geocities.com/rebholzer

Cindyxeus- thanks for that information on the study! I know several GSDs with bloat in the family history and will pass it on to the owners to be passed on to the breeders. I saw a passing reference to that potassium study too and also didn't see that anything came of it. I know that total body potassium is actually kinda hard to measure. The body regulates serum potassium pretty well, but it is the cells that need it. So if you do a serum potassium measurement and it is low, you can assume that total body potassium is also low. But if the serum potassium is normal, you could still have low total body potassium which can cause all sorts of problems, especially cardiac arrhythmias which is a serious complication of GDV. Also GDV has a horrendous effect on all the electrolytes, not just potassium. So then you're left with the chicken and egg problem- did the GDV cause low potassium or did the low potassium cause the GDV? Maybe they decided the former. I don't know though. Being that they aren't even *sure* that the dilation comes before the torsion, it's no wonder...

As far as actual articles on doing the pexy at ~6 months I couldn't find anything. All I know is that they are being done at that time a LOT. Here are some message excepts from VIN:

"The timing of the pexy does not seem to be critical - some people have suggested delaying the time of the spay/neuter to allow time for gastric development, but this is unnecessary - the stomach can be successfully attached to the abdominal wall in puppies, without compromising gastrointestinal function."

"I'd pexy. If the dog has first degree relatives that have bloated, I'd pexy ASAP. The day of neutering is as good a day as any and certainly better than waiting for the day of GDV."

Q "What is the recommended age for doing a prophylactic gastropexy in a Great Dane pup? The owner would like to do it at the same time that the dog is castrated, but I'm wondering if we should wait until the puppy has stopped growing...."

A "No reason to wait that I know of. I think it's a great idea!"

"I feel that the -pexy will be stable since everything will grow proportionally. I did a prophylactic incisional -pexy a few years ago on an adult Malamute who had surgery at Ohio State last year for gastric carcinoma and the -pexy was still good."

"I would recommend that the -pexy be preformed when the dogs are neutered. "

"I always recommend prophylactic gastropexy when perfomring OHE on an at-risk breed. I almost soley perform incisional gastropexies (suturing the pyloric antrum to the transversus abdominus muscle) when doing a prophylactic gastropexy as they are fast, easy, very low morbidity, and effective."

"I don't know of any long term studies with regard to the effect of a prophylactic gastropexy in the very young giat breed. I have done them in the other breed around 6-7 months of age. Laproscopic assisted GP could be consider at any age."

And it goes on and on.

Cindy- sorry I didn't see that link in your original post! I'm being rather blind today :(

Interestingly enough, I found several online resources that recommended elevating food dishes to *prevent* GDV. Sigh. It's no wonder people get confused. Vets really do need to take responsibility and make sure clients understand how to prevent GDV and to correct false information.

It would be really nice if we just knew exactly what caused GDV and exactly how to prevent it. I hope the GSD study will shed some light on the genetic influences there are any.

I attached another link showing pros and cons of various types of pexys. Hardly anyone does the tube pexy anymore, as it doesn't seem to hold up and has more serious risks.

I know all this debate probably doesn't help the original poster that much, but I think it is important that owners know all the pros and cons of all the options before making a decision.

(Meghane writes):I know all this debate probably doesn't help the original poster that much, but I think it is important that owners know all the pros and cons of all the options before making a decision.

Meghane I totally agree with the above statement. Many times posts don't help the OP, but they are very educational for the entire board reading none the less, as I do believe this was.
At least this poster has gotten alot more understanding of the procedure and can make a decision less blindly than many of us do,or have done. Although ignorance is bliss I know I would rather know all the factors or at least as many as I could before signing any surgery consent form! LOL. Personally I am still rather leary of having any surgery without cause.After the fact may be too late is true, but there are complications to all surgeries and I just think it's something to weigh all sides before jumping in. I can't wait to get all the info on the DNA studies however and will be watching this very closely as I have been for the DNA studies on Degenerative myelopathay.
Thanks for the info also, and the conversation. It's always a good exchange with you!

Information raised bowls comes from the owner of the Three dog bakery, who had a really hard time with the health of his Great Dane. He reformulated her food and raised the water and food bowls off the ground. She immediately began to get better. So he kept it up, his Dane lived into the double digits - quite a feat for such a large breed dog.

It *is* fun. You never cease to amaze me in your research cindyxeus! Your dog owning experience is so helpful. It's one thing to speak from the medical side of things; it's something else entirely to have gone through such things with your own pets. Your perspective is wonderful.

Mazer, I am curious about the Dane of Three Dog Bakery. Do you know what her specific medical issues were? Raised bowls are a great help to dogs with megaesophagus or other issues that reduce esophageal motility. Also great for dogs with cervical spinal disease such as Wobblers in reducing pain while eating. Danes think it's fun to get Wobblers so I wonder if that was part of her problem. As with many things, there are few actions one can take that don't have both pros and cons. Double digits is an amazing feat for a Dane- I'm very impressed!

Meghane, if your interested in Danes and issues with them, I highly recommend http://www.greatdanelady.com
Amazing lady, truely.

Thank you to everyone for all the information and advice. You are all so helpful. I do have a few more questions. Right now I am free feeding my puppy (4 months old), and he does eat alot, some days he eats about 8-10 cups of food a day, and he'll sometimes eat alot at once, but other times, he grazes all day long. I thought that while he was growing, this was better, to free feed, but if I am doing him wrong, I want to make some changes. Should I be limiting his intake and portions more? I do try and limit his activity after eating, but I haven't been doing that before eating. I also have a question about the water, he often drinks alot of water at once. Should I limit his water intake, does this affect bloat. Also, I am feeding him Purina puppy chow. I thought this was a good quality food, but if anyone knows of a brand that is better for me to use, that is good for dog's digestive tract, please let me know. I am going to do some internet searching on food and see what I can find out. The one thing I know I don't have to worry about with him is fearful or anxious attitude. I tell you, that little one is not afraid of anything. He marches around the house like he's the owner and he knows he's hot stuff. Once again, thanks for all the information and help.

I would never free feed a St.Bernard,or any dog really especially a pup who's breed has a high incidence of bloat.
However suggesting a food and amount for you I wouldn't feel comfortable with as I am not experienced in your breed. You may want to do some searching around for ST. Bernard web sites and club rings to get better information of appropriate foods and amounts for the age,breed of your dog.
If you got your dog from a reputable breeder this is a good place to start finding out all you can about his lines. Ask for any health registries the breeder should have participated in. If you know how to read your dogs papers ( if you have any) this can also help you find information.
Here are some registries below:

Saint Bernard Club of America
UKC United Kennel Club
NKC National Kennel Club
CKC Continental Kennel Club
APRI Americas Pet Registry Inc.
AKC American Kennel Club
FCI Federation Cynologique Internationale
NZKC New Zealand Kennel Club
KCGB Kennel Club of Great Britain
ANKC Australian National Kennel Club
ACR American Canine Registry
Tracing your dogs generartion can help you find health data. The more you know about your dog's line the more you can help him.

Three Dog Bakery was started by Mark Beckloff and Dan Dye because they wanted to make healthy treats for their 3 dogs. Gracie was their dane. I don't remember what her particular health issues were, other than being deaf I believe, but for many years (into the 60's that I remember) it was standard practice to raise food bowls for danes and other giant breed dogs.

My opinion is that it would be better for the pup if you stopped the free feeding and went to scheduled feedings. Purina has never been a food of choice for giant breed dogs. There are many excellent foods on the market more suited for them. It is recommended that you limit water intake before and after eating and limit activity after eating.

I have owned Great Danes for 44 years. I love the breed. In all these years, I can honestly say I have had about 7-8
bloat episodes. The 2 that happened last year came after 12 years of not having it happen. I have had danes live to 13 with nothing more than a weak rear. Normally, we have them live into double digits.

Whatever decision you make about your St. puppy, I wish you the best. Please don't become fixated on what could happen.

Jan

If it´s not broke don´t fix it.

I disagree in the use of "preventive" gastropexy for an issue that is not as common as you think it is. I´m a veterinary surgeon, between my customers I have several breeders that breed German Sheperds, Great Danes, Dobermans, Labradors, English Bulldogs, English Mastiffs, Neapolitan Mastiffs, Rottweilers; in other words, it´s a huge universe of animals ( breeding stock & puppies ) that I see in my clinic everyday. Stomach torsion & bloating is an extremely rare ocurrence, to make it short, in ten years only in 9 ocassions I have performed a gastropexy.

Performing a "preventive" gastropexy because your vet suggested it I see it more as an unethical suggestion from the vet ( a quick way to put into his pocket a nice sum of money ) than as a true preventive measure. It´s like suggesting you should perform an arthroplastic femoral excision or a hip joint replacement because you own a dog from a breed where hip displasia is "common".

I do agree that small meals through the day instead of feeding a full meal once a day reduce the probabilities of bloating in breeds where the issue is of concern; I strongly suggest to feed the dog during the daylight hours, I see the practice of one full meal at night as "risky business" ( you feed the dog a big meal, everybody goes to sleep and if crap happens it´s going to happen in the middle of the night and there you are looking like crazy for a vet at 3 AM ). I certainly suggest not to submit the animal to strenous excercise after being fed. If you ever see your dogs abdomen increasing it´s volume without any apparent reason take the animal to the vet IMMEDIATELY, stomach torsion is one of the few issues that can be considered a true emergency, the dog can die quickly if it does not get proper medical attention right away ( I´ve seen it happen ).

Hi everyone. I have another question. My saint puppy lays down when he eats. I thought this was so cute and I always laughed and told him he redefines lazy. But now I'm wondering if this may actually simulate a raised bowl since it brings the food right to him. Should I be concerned about this, and if so, how do I make him stand up to eat, other than hold him up. And after all the information from here, and some of my own internet searching, I do not believe we will be doing prophylactic stomach tacking. I am somewhat assured that with his complete lack of family history, then we can take all the appropriate precautions to help prevent bloat and torsion. I know this is not 100% guarenteed, but then I guess the surgery isn't either. And I already started monitoring his food intake more closely and I limited his portions last night, along with his water. I felt a little like a meenie because he kept staring at his food bowl, then looking at me and whining, so what I did was feed him smaller amounts of food, several times last evening. And I made him rest after eating. He didn't like that either, but hey, as long as it helps keep him healthy, he'll just have to get used to it. Once again, thank you so much to everyone who responded to me on this.

I am new to this particular forum, but read it regularly...I have a Bloodhound and a hound/lab mix and know that both are bloat-proned. I have been so worried about my Bloodhound puppy concerning this issue. I had been told repeatedly (by the vet) to feed them both with raised bowls, so now I suppose that needs to change. Oscar (the Bloodhound) is very tall already...will be a year next month, and needs to eat pretty often, so I do that regularly in smaller amounts rather than in one meal. I have searched this site for info on this particular breed and haven't found much...any insight from you all? I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks! He's almost 90 lbs, I think. Really a sweetie!

Does anyone here have a Bloodhound?

My German Shepherd female had GDV two years ago and it was touch and go but she survived after two emergency surgeries (first one, they didn't remove enough of the toxic stomach and almost died from toxins in her system until they went back in about 24 hours later and removed more.)

I'm convinced that we should have realized she was at risk for GDV because she is a "gulper". A BIG gulper. You know the kind of eating pattern I'm talking about, when you offer food and they almost roughly grab it out of your hand. We have two GSD's. The one who had GDV is very gentle in every respect except with eating. The other GDV is very agressive in every respect except in eating, LOL. He gingerly takes any food from your fingers and slowly snifs his bowl before diving in.

My main point is that I'm convinced my female GSD just ate too much, too fast (with too much air, i.e. raised bowls.)

They did a gastopexy before stictching her back up after the GDV. Her surgery/vetHospitalCare cost a whole lot more than $1800. Make that $8000.

Gigi the same info for bloat and or torsion on other breeds would fit yours as well.

Raul_in_mexico, I wonder if you then do not do spays and neuters because they aren't broke so they don't need to be fixed?

Not to be a smart-aleck, but it seems that prevention is the key in certain breeds, esp Danes. I have read with interest that there seems to be a family link, so perhaps the dogs you see are not so susceptible as their USA counterparts. It would be interesting to do epidemiology studies comparing the groups of dogs and see if there is really a difference in occurence. Or perhaps the owners in Mexico are not so keen on bringing their dogs in right away so they die at home without knowing what killed them. Just a thought.

Anyway, in other news, I pexied a goat last week! It was interesting and didn't take nearly as long as I thought it would, even though we had 3 students do it (one each) AND we also did tracheostomies (4 students did that). Got done in 3 hours, prep to finish including clean up. Of course, we only had to open the goat up once. And unfortunately it ws a planned terminal surgery so we didn't have to wait for it to wake up. But still, not bad for a bunch of amateurs. I am pretty sure I could do it in a dog relatively quickly after watching once.

Let´s perform a radical mastectomy on all females to prevent mammary cancer, or why not ? let´s perform hip joint replacement in all over 50 pound breeds because there is a risk of hip displasia, is that what you are saying ? under that mentality there´s bunch of procedures that can be done as a "prophylactic" measures.

You didn´t like what I said, you felt like I was disauthorizing you; since when having a second opinion or giving a second opinion is wrong ? you recommend it, I do not, let those who asked be the judge if it´s convinient or not.

Raul_in_mexico:

Well, I'd prefer to spay non-breeding dogs before first heat to reduce chance of breast cancer from 25% (spaying after 3rd heat cycle) to less than 1%. Although women with genetic markers for breast cancer DO elect prophylactic radical mastectomies and I for one don't see anything wrong with that. And in breeds with high incidence of hip dysplasia I'd screen them with a distraction view radiograph at ~14 weeks so we could discuss doing a juvenile pelvic symphysidesis before the dog had excruciating pain and lameness and required a total hip replacement or FHO.

The point being that there is no good predictive test that allows a vet to determine that THIS dog will at some point have GDV and THIS dog will not as with hip dysplasia. I'd love that GSD study cindyxeus posted to help find something that vets could use to determine more accurately which specific dogs are at risk. But until then, all we have is family history when available and breed. You can either wait until the dog is presented as an emergency with all sorts of odd stacked against it (usually older dogs, electrolyte imbalances, +/- stomach necrosis, shock) or do a prophylactic gastropexy while the dog is young and healthy and prevent the whole problem in the first place. Of course, the prophy pexy would have to be based on risk, but until we get a handle on what the risk factors actually are, all we have is breed and family history.

I think that if a vet here in the US did not discuss the risk of GDV in at-risk breeds and ALL the preventative options, that the vet can and would be successfully sued for malpractice should that dog bloat. And to respond to the "lining the pockets" comment, it is MUCH less expensive to do the pexy prophylactically than when the dog actually bloats.

OTOH, with the numbers you gave it is clear to me why you don't think GDV is a problem. The vet school sees about 12 per month and the animal hospital where I worked in a small NC town had about 9-12 patients per year get GDV, although not all were seen at the hospital. So you are not seeing it nearly as much as we are for some reason. If we were seeing such low case numbers as you are, I doubt we would be even having this discussion because it would be pointless. But we are seeing GDV a LOT, and people with at-risk breeds are intested in preventing it rather than dealing with it, especially considering the suffering to the dog and expense to the owner.

But I certainly see your point and if it was as rare here as it is in your practice, I'd 100% agree with you.

Okay, I have another few questions. I have been doing alot of internet research on GDV and am wondering about some things. First, I read that it's the deep chested dogs that are at greatest risk. One thing we're noticing about our saint bernard, is that his chest doesn't seem to be excessively deep. It's quite wide, but it doesn't seem real deep. Our black lab's chest, now that is another matter, he has a deep narrow chest. Since they are both puppies, will the body shapes change, chests get deeper / shallower, or is this how they will probably stay. My second question is regarding flatulence. My saint bernard puppy seems to have alot of gas. Not to be blunt, but when he's sleeping, he seems to fart almost constantly. I don't know if this is the kind of gas that could cause bloat if he doesn't get it out or if that is something different. I've read about giving simethicone or some other gas tablets to at risk dogs routinely to make sure they get the gas out. Is this something you recommend to patients (Raul and Meghane)?

onyxdaily, I'm not meghane or raul, but FWIW when our mastiff died of bloat and his girlfriend was freaking out with grief (and therefore sometimes showing possible symptoms of bloat) the vets we consulted recommended simethicone regularly for her because she was at such high risk. They also recommended reevaluating her food for any gas-producing elements, which we did. Happily, both these strategies worked and she did not bloat.

We now keep simethicone tablets around and give them if our mastiffs have gas. However, since changing their food to a higher quality, this seems to happen only when/if feeding/exercise schedules are greatly disrupted.

Hope this helps.

The incidence of bloating and/or gastric torsion ( there can be bloating without gastric torsion, gastric torsion is always associated with bloating ) is more commonly seen in deep chested breeds, which doesn´t necessarily mean it´s exclusive to deep chested breeds, there are breeds where the problem is more prevalent ( like Great Danes ), and in them the incidence problem suggests that there´s a heredatary cause, even so, not all the animals that share the same genetic pool ( brothers and sisters ) are subject to the problem. It´s like Hip Displasia, we know it´s hereditary, but that doesn´t mean your dog will have it, and even when you know that your dog´s ancestry doesn´t have it ( something you can find in your dog´s pedigree if you dog has a pedigree ) there´s no gurantee that your dog won´t have it.

Gas, the type of gas you are refering to is produced in the intestine and has no relation with bloat, bloat is caused when the cardiac sphincter ( the first sphincter of the stomac )( sphincter, not the literal definition but one you can understand, muscular ring that acts like a valve ) can´t open and doesn´t allow the evacuation of stomach content ( food, liquid, gas, foam or all of them ) causing gastric dilation.

Drugs like simethicone all they do is to prevent the formation of GAS BUBBLES by breaking the superficial tension, they do not prevent the formation of gas.

Gas formation depends greatly on the diet and the elements that form that diet, this is important to a certain point because it has to do with the ingredients used to create the diet, certain carbohidrate and protein sources create more gas when the bacteria use them as substract, soy flour and soy meal are good examples of them.

It´s when the defense mechanisms of the body fail for whatever cause when medications should be used, not before, in the case of the GI tract those defense mechanisms are farts and burps. I see no benefit in administering a medication when the results are of questionable nature.

If you are seeing that your dog has a lot of gas with THAT PARTICULAR DIET and that particular formulation I would rather tell you to change the diet, only if after trying several diets and formulations after a period of time and after burning all the ships the situation continues then I would suggest to use a medication, medication is the last resource.

Onxydaily, how has your St. Bernards life been, now that it's been 11 years? Did you do the stomach tack?