Is there a "traditional white kitchen" in the first place? I wasn't aware that there was.

I think what is important when you are spending money is to:

get the countertops you want.

I don't think white cabinets dictate soapstone or marble in particular---rather I think it opens you to a vast array of granites that may not work with some natural woodtones.

>Is there a "traditional white kitchen" in the first place? I wasn't aware that there was.

Glad I'm not the only one who didn't get the memo. :)

I'm doing the same cabinets.... but with Cambria Quartz countertops.... I think I'm going with the color Blackwood (or maybe Durham.) I am in a similar boat as you... my GC pushed the quartz..... I wanted soapstone.... however, it has started to grow on me.

I think you should get marble if you really want marble or really want that look; however, granite or quartz could look just as lovely with less maintenance.

drjoan, you are hopefully building this house and kitchen for you and your DH, not for this website or for what other people think you should have. You should create the kitchen that you love, with the cabinets that you love and the granite that you love. It sounds like the "Ideal Traditional White Kitchen" is not really your dream kitchen, so go with what you love and get the granite. :) I can't wait to see your progress. Good luck!

I was really torn about not getting bianco antico for my white kitchen. However, my floors are black and my walls are pear green and the ceiling is a darker green, so black was the only thing I feel would go. It is very contemporary, and I will just have to do bianco antico in my next kitchen with white cabs. I will never have anything but white or black cabs in my kitchen.
Lisa

What's wrong with giving the 'classic' a twist and making it your own? I'd prefer that...MUCH more. You want to walk in and know you made that kitchen to suit you, not like you walked into a model home. And if you're concerned about resale, I'd rather buy a kitchen that had some individual character than having one that fit a cookie cutter look out of a magazine or movie. And the overall impression will not be 'ruined.' The basic aesthetic of the white inset style will shine through.

Gosh, are you kidding? Granites like Thunderball "live" for white cabinets. There's a rock you could gaze at forever and not grow tired.

Here is a link that might be useful: Thunderball

I am speechless.

As someone who is new to this forum and kitchen remodeling, I can tell you that I had no idea what you were talking about. I realize from this forum that a lot of people have done white kitchens recently but oddly, Im outside of DC and all the remodels around here are not white. In fact there is a lot of dark walnut, ebony and grays going on. I decided to go mixed tone with off white mostly because I am moving to dark hardwoods and my kitchen isnt that big. I thought it would look like a log cabin with wood stained cabinets everywhere.

Anyway, the point is, you are too sensitized to the ideal - the vast majority of the world would not know you are supposed to do marble in the ideal white kitchen (I'm going with you on this one, I dont really know!). If it ever got to a point where everyone knew that, the interesting/hip thing to do would be to definately NOT do that as you would look uncreative and cookie cutter.

So bottom line, go with granite. Its the easiest decision I have made all day. You love it, its good for resale, I like it- see? total consensus!

well, let me ask you this. If you're not doing "the" kitchen, would you still "want" those cabinets? or are you only desiring those cabinets and backsplash as part of the whole picture? Is there something else that you deep down inside really would like but you're not doing because it's not "the" kitchen? after all, you don't "have" to get those cabinets and backsplash just like you don't "have" to get the soapstone.

Have you taken a look at Sweeby's test? I wish I'd have done that before I started my kitchen. It can help you define exactly what you do want. Maybe you can come up with some more creative ideas that will more suit what you really would like rather than some sort of preconceived "ideal".

Do what you love--you and your family are the ones who will live there and experience the kitchen every day. Where do you feel this 'ideal white kitchen' pressure from---friends, family, design magazines?

It can be hard to stray from what THEY (that universal, mysterious group who are always SAYing things) think you should do. I should know; I started with an idea for off-white cabinets and a nice simple brown quartz, with nice neutral light tile floors--the copper farm sink was the big "oh no!" I got from everyone in this plan. Now I have switched from all off-white to mixing in a lot of sage green cabinetry, brick paver flooring, soapstone counters and sink, and a wild copper backsplash--well, you can just imagine the reaction now--I practically had to bring out the smelling salts!

I have decided at my age I can no longer live for THEM (so-called purveyors of taste, future home buyers, close friends and family who hate the color green) and have to live for US. Why live with something you don't like just so people who stop by a few times a year will ooh and aah?

Sorry if I strayed a little off topic of your original post here--I just feel strongly that you should do what makes YOU and your family happy and comfortable. :-)

I know what you mean by the "Ideal White Traditional Kitchen Look" -- and it's a lovely look that would be perfectly at home in your house.
However, because it is such a recognizable "look" it will also be easy to date, meaning 20 years from now it will be as 2010 as the Brady Bunch Kitchen was 1970. If that's something that would be a problem for you, then it's something you should consider carefully before going there.

You can vary the elements to change the look, yet still get the feeling that you love. Since you love granite, get granite! You love stainless steel sinks -- get them! Think about your cabinets -- Do you love that particular style? Or was it just part of 'the look'? Would a slightly different style (they'd be less expensive) work as well for your revised vision?

There was a poster here a few years back (I believe her name was Gail) who did a fabulous 'tone on tone' kitchen in various shades of creme. It had the same relaxed, elegant, and soothing vibe many of the 'Traditional White' kitchens achieve, but she got there in a whole different way. Her kitchen was timeless, and (except for the appliances) could have been done 50 years ago, or 30 years ago, or 10 years ago -- or probably 20 years from now. It would be worth heading over to the 'Finished Kitchens Blog' to see if you can find it. (I think Gail was in her screen name.)

I'd suggest doing a bunch of searches for 'white kitchens' and 'off-white kitchens' to pull inspiration photos of those that hit the 'Feeling' but avoid 'The Look'...

I agree with others that say do what you love, what speaks to you, not some idea from a movie or magazines. Also, go to a granite yard, or several, and see what's there. That's what I did. I have a white cabinet kitchen, a pine table with chairs covered in a traditional french provencal fabric, and combined that with granite counters with tons of movement. I remember going to my 3rd or 4th granite yard, and being "struck by lightning" when I caught sight of "my" granite. It was love, and the decision was made. My granite is Piracema; it has lots of movement, and also comes in several shades from lighter to darker (mine is mid-range color). Every time I walk in my kitchen I enjoy looking at my granite with all its movement. And also, it has turned out to be impervious to everything and didn't need sealing, an unexpected bonus. While I love marble (particularly Calacutta), and understand what you are saying about the look of marble, even marble's biggest fans will say it etches, which marble enthusiasts don't mind at all, but will you?

Here is a link that might be useful: Piracema Granite Slab

Hi DrJoann,

Since this is a house you are moving too, what color
kitchen do you have now? The one you currently use.
What do you like about it? What do you want to change?

Sometimes we think we want one thing but in the process of
building a house or moving or changing we discover "Hey I
think I like this instead."
You sound pressured to make some choices and that is mixed
with trying to determine exactly what you like.

Definitely do the Sweeby Test. And you are a perfect
candidate for the test as you are not updating what you
have, or working with a set budget or having to keep
certain elements that still exist in your kitchen.

There are elegant dark wood kitchens like these....
And I have to agree with Sweeby that the trend may be
towards this style. Loosing the upper cabinets or
creating a space that looks like furniture rather
than the typical "white" kitchen.

Luxury Modern Interior Design

Southern Accent (Steel Windows)

NKBA Design winner Notice there is no stainless all
built in appliances. I wonder if this will be a future
trend?

And there are white kitchens with granite like these ....
You do not have to marble or have the "Something's Gotta Give White kitchen. Design what you love.

This Old House

Camille Garro Kitchens

Nash

Detox Your Kitchen

Earthwise Kentfield kitchen

360 Custom Kitchens

Fine Wood Cabinetry

Whatever you do choose is going to be heavenly because you chose it. Enjoy the process.
~boxerpups

Thanks for all the support, y'all. It helps.

I had hit some very bad place, yesterday, because we were on a telecon with the builder we're about to sign with. He said that he was going to do everything in his power to talk me out of doing chrome fixtures rather than ORB. He said that we needed ORB for a custom house at this level. The implication was that chrome is "cheap". As the conversation progressed, he said something about being able to schedule some time with a designer for me.

I dunno, it just hit me in the gut. We've been obsessing over this house for two years. We've thought all of this stuff through. Chrome is just perfect for the "New Old House" look we want. I understand that we are outside the "norm" for custom homes in Upstate. I guess that's the reason I look to the resources on the Boston Design Guide for inspiration for the interior. All but a handful of the kitchens in the Shingle Style houses are the "Ideal Traditional White Kitchen".

I wasn't trying to meet that "ideal" that I set up for myself because of neighbors. The neighbors are going to expect to see stained wood, raised panel cabinets with granite countertops and travertine backsplash. I think I set up the "ideal" because I truly want a white kitchen & that is the only way I knew how to execute it based on the resources I was referencing.

But, we're not investment bankers doing a multi-million dollar house in the Hamptons or on Martha's Vineyard. We're two engineers who want to retire to a relatively modest (2600sf main level) home in the foothills of the Smokies whose architecture is inspired by what architectural historians claim is the first style to be purely American.

So, time to throw away the "ideal" that isn't working for me & say what I really want:

- A beautiful granite like Bianco Antico or Bianco Romano with lots of creams and whites which is not too "wild" but not too plain. I don't care that it is shiny, I like the shiny. I don't care if it is becoming declasse because it is now so common and will date a kitchen because everyone has it. DH & I love granite & we've been haunting granite yards for the past year.

- Slate (or soapstone) on the island behind the range. I can put a hot pan on it and I love the contrast in textures.

- Subway tiles, but not just plain but a crackle and/or translucent glaze with lots of variation.

- Stainless steel sinks & chrome fixtures.

- Creamy white cabinets that are stacked. We love the look of stacked cabinets and we've got the 10' ceilings to do it. We love recessed panel doors with fairly simple sticking. I like the look of inset doors, but then it stops working for me when a base has multiple drawers which I plan to have in most of the bases. I really think I want some kind of hybrid with inset and frameless so I need help with that one.

I found Gail's kitchen. What an inspiration! And, how could I forget redroze's kitchen. OMG! That Bianco Antico with the inset white cabinets.

I guess part of what was bothering me was the whole thread about being tired of white kitchens with quite a bit of negative undertones in there about granite. Add in the builder and the whole ORB thing & I got kinda shaky.

Anyway, this has been very beneficial for me to vent about the builder and to write out what I know I want. It has certainly clarified my thinking. I'll probably start another thread about mixing inset and frameless so everyone doesn't have to wade through my angst attack. LOL!

Thanks, so much. All y'all are GREAT!!!!

Jo Ann

It sounds like you're on a good track and know exactly what you like. Sounds absolutely stunning...And ORB wouldn't suit it, IMO. Stick to your guns. You are right in deciding the vision for your kitchen and shouldn't be swayed by a builder. Chrome is very classic. ORB can be, too, if wanted, and used correctly, but it is also trendy right now. When we went shopping for light fixtures 2 yrs ago, EVERYthing was ORB and that made me want to work even harder to find something else. (I'm just like that.)

Go for it! Your gut is working well for you...just turn off the sound to the nay-sayers. :-)

Dr. joann, from what I've seen and heard about your house, it sounds absolutely gorgeous!!!

We are also doing the same something's gotta give white kitchen, but our own version. We are not having a backplash at all, just plain ole paint. With some reclaimed wood open shelves. Our countertops will be honed AB. Do what you like.

What fixtures was he talking about in the ORB? bath fixtures? Interior door hardware or kitchen hardware? Our baths all will have chrome fixtures. Kitchen hardware will be either brushed or polished nickel. ORB is very nice but there are other nice things too. BTW, aged brass is the new thing-you should let your builder know. LOL!

I'm relieved to read your second message.

I was freaking out at the idea that there exists some "correct" kitchen out there that everyone must have, and that you felt pressure to have it, too. There doesn't. There isn't even a correct white kitchen--the Something's Gotta Give Kitchen made such a splash because it was NEW, not because it was what old shingle-style houses actually had originally. They didn't--I've been in plenty. The whole "kit" is new. And the whole idea of a checklist that has to be followed in every detail is THE recipe for a soon-to-be-dated renovation.

What's so funny is that your contractor AGREES that there is a checklist that should be followed--he just has a different list. And yours is more up to date than his.

I'm glad you're going with what you love. That's all that matters.

Also, are you getting the fixtures from your builder? He may be pushing the ORB because he's got a stockpile of them...

Whichever finish you prefer, buy the fixtures yourself, not through your builder. If you buy them yourself, you'll get exactly what YOU want (with faucets, it's not just the finish that's the decision, but the style (bridge or single hole, pull-down or pull-out, traditional, transitional or contemporary)), and you'll likely get a better price too. I myself think ORB has been hot in the last 4-5 years, but is starting to wane. Polished Chrome has been around for, I dunno, 80 years? It's not going to go out of style.

I think that if you love granite, then you should get what you want. What I love about white cabinets is that you can pretty much put anything with them. This is what we got:

I still actively love it every day. I think it's important to have things like that in your life.

I think chrome became less popular with the increased prevalence of SS appliances. Adjacent to each other, the chrome does take on a bluish cast. But unless your color scheme called out for ORB, nickel would be a better choice.

Noble Steel is the German for Stainless.
A label can transfer a lot of meaning.
-

A plated surface finish is what all the others are.
You can't remove a little ding by polishing it down.
Any harsh surface treatment will damage it.
Chromed surfaces are like any other plate surface.
This also applies to ORB.
Chrome is the lowest cost finish in the market today.

Plumbing fixtures made of noble-steel have two advantages:
one is that the surface reacts with nothing.
and the other is that you can rub the surface with anything to repolish it.
A stainless-steel wool pad can refinish it.

It's the same material through and through.
Stainless-steel throughout.

As engineers, you probably can appreciate this difference.

There are many recipes for stainless.
Some are beautiful.
Go see KWC and Hansa faucets and fixtures.
And other German and Swiss manufacturers.

hth

You're so right in your vision DrJoann -- Just tell your contractor that in the Big City where you're from, ORB is already on they way out, and that chrome and polished nickel are the future. They're certainly better-suited to the type of home you're planning.

Hi, Mondragon!!! Was just thinking of you and wondering where you'd gone. (I was going through my clippings and was reminded of your lovely table and the advice you gave about using Waterlox...which I still appreciate more than you can know!)

rhome - :) nice to be remembered. We're doing a bathroom now - now that the memory of doing the kitchen has faded.....

I ended up having to sand and refinish the table - I'd been waxing it and I thought I cleaned it really well before putting on more waterlox. Orangepeel effect. Luckily I got it back to where it was.

As usual, it takes me a while to compose my feelings and thoughts on a topic that deals with visual design issues. The "classic white kitchen" is about simplicity in materials and line. There is generally but little surface ornamentation; the themes are dark countertops, medium/dark floors, and white/off-white cabinets. Sometimes a variation of the theme is admitted, like a marble-topped wood or black island to break monotony (not the bad kind). I can't think where any strong patterns, glitzy materials or broad sweeps of wild texture are utilized in the "classic white kitchen" theme. I think it's success is mostly because of its essential neutrality and clean lines that belong to a unadorned, frill-free shaker ethos. A "CWK" (tm) is so very neutral that I think using a highly-figured material anywhere negates the theme and veers off into something-else-ness. It will no longer be the CWK I'm afraid.
A highly-figured wood for the cabinets would be equally outside the expected neutrality zone that the style requires.
Do we need to set up a standards body to police kitchen design and judge what falls within and outside of CWK protocol? I think the CWK will be with us for a long time, because it is so easy-going, and everyone can connect with it. It looks like it was built to be used, not looked at, it is free from artifice (as much as can be expected) is as unshocking as a black limousine, a navy suit, or brown shoes.
I do have a problem with any kitchen that has crystal chandeliers or polished nickel counter tops, those variations on the theme fly a bit far afield, and would be almost as bad as wearing board shorts and a wife-beater to Harry Winstons.
Casey

Thanks for all of the responses. Before I address them, I think I'd like to give some background on why this kitchen means so much to me. I love to cook, so the primary purpose of my kitchen is to be functional. Honestly, the most functional kitchen I've ever had was my small galley kitchen in an apartment in Hoboken, NJ.

The secondary purpose is to be beautiful, in my eyes. I have never had anything that approaches a beautiful kitchen. The kitchen I have now was an '80's kitchen in a house built in the '90's so was outdated when I bought it when it was 4 years old. The cabinets are golden oak with arched rasied panels. The wallpaper looked like it belonged in a bathroom, the backsplash was pinkish, glossy tile and the laminate countertop was that fakey "marble" which also verged on pink. See below:

I did change out the wallpaper to something bright and cheerful that I hated to take down for the "refresh" we did for eventual sale of the house. But, I did know that it had to go. For the refresh we also installed Giallo Napoleon counters, a lovely stainless finish pullout faucet, a new Ticor sink and DH ripped out the tile and redid the backsplash in tumbled marble with onyx accents. The cabinets are staying unless a real estate agent says otherwise because there are houses selling in our area that still have those cabinets and everything else that was original. So, really, not a bad kitchen, but nothing to make your heart go pitty-pat.

What y'all need to know about is "The Kitchen from the Ninth Circle of Hell" hereinafter referred to as the NCH kitchen. This was the kitchen in the my first house which I bought with my EX in NJ. Take the absolute worst kitchen you have ever seen in "before" pictures on GardenWeb and raise that to the Nth power and you might approach the NCH kitchen.

Let me 'splain. The house was a Dutch Colonial Revival built in the 1920's and owned by an artist. It had good bones and the original chestnut floors and trim restored, but everything else was bizarre. The foyer and the bathroom had kitchen foil crumbled, smoothed out and then applied to the walls with Elmer's glue. The light fixture in the parlor was an inverted barstool and in the dining room it was an old wooden table with lights laid on top. The EX did replace the latter because you could smell smoldering wood when the lights were on high and he thought it _might_ be a fire hazard. There's more. But, the NCH kitchen - OMG!

The floor was a vinyl made to look like red brick with grime so ground into it that I could never get it clean. The countertops were fire engine red laminate. The trim was painted another bright red. The wallpaper was a white background with huge red and black poppies. But, the thing that totally broke my spirit was that the wallpaper was applied to all the cabinets, as well. I don't think NCH kitchen is even adequate. Was there a tenth circle of hell?

Now, of course, after clearing safety hazards like wooden tables used as light fixtures, one would think that the next upgrade would be the kitchen, right? No, not with my EX. The plans were drawn, the money was sitting in the bank from a refi for the reno and he never would agree to go ahead with it. Years later, we relocated to TX and once we moved out of the house, he had the kitchen reno along with a bath reno, painting, etc. done so that we could lease out the house. So, I had a beautiful kitchen in NJ which I never even got to see, much less enjoy.

Fast forward to 2010 and dearest DH & I (notice the EX is an EX - wonder why?) are planning to build our forever home. I want it to be classic; I want it to be perfect; I want it to be everything that I never had. And ... DH just doesn't like dark countertops like soapstone so a truly CWK is not in the cards. Does it sound like I am repeating a pattern of subjugating my wants and needs to that of a man? Not, really & here's why:

Just after Christmas, we put DD on a plane to begin 6 months of missionary work halfway around the world. On the way home, we stopped at a slabyard along the freeway just to distract ourselves. As we walked from slab to slab, DH kept falling in love with each choice wilder than the last. When we got home, I stewed a bit (never a good thing), and burst out with "You're not going to let me have the beautiful kitchen that I want!" and began to boohoo.

In the midst of the sobs, I told him about the NCH kitchen. At the end he had tears in his eyes & said, "If I could have fixed it for you then, I would have. And, if I had ever known, I would have redone this kitchen right after we got married so you could have had what you wanted for all these years." That's all I needed; he understood. We're a team and teammates make compromises for each other. Large amounts of black/gray bother him, so no soapstone. The ideal of the CWK isn't worth having him uncomfortable all the time. We both adore granite, so granite it is and we'll have our own version of a "Not So Classic White Kitchen", but it will be ours and not someone's ideal that would never quite fit.

Thanks for all of the understanding & support - Jo Ann

P.S. I showed DH the pictures of of dotcomgone's wonderful white kitchen & he said, "Wow! I really like that marble." Luckily, I have a lot of hair, because otherwise it might all be gone by the end of this build from constantly pulling it out. LOL!!!!

Sounds like you could find him a photo of a kitchen that you love and he'd love it, too. I'm glad you're getting the kitchen you want and glad you're willing to let your dh have some say, too. It's about sharing the house and your lives there...and compromise is good sometimes, teaching us to appreciate the loved ones in our lives. And they often have good ideas, too! I think you're on the right track in more ways than one.

Best wishes.

WRT Builder & ORB - no, he's not trying to offload fixtures, that's just the style for custom houses in the Upstate. He gave us the sheets from all of his suppliers so that we could see what the allowances were based on. Three different suppliers of items from faucets to doorknobs to towels racks & they were all quoting based on ORB. I mean even the hinges on the doors and the handles for the loos were ORB. Go figger.

Oh, and we also decided that we want mostly glass door knobs with antique brass rosettes. Nice to know that we are at the cutting edge of a trend of which we were unaware. I spot checked the suppliers prices on several items and they are in line with what I could get them for online. We kinda feel that the sales tax and few extra bucks are worth the money to support the economy of the place we plan to make our forever home.

Boxerpups - thanks for the pix. Being a guy, DH started out wanting stained wood, but after showing him all kinds of finished kitchens on this site & in magazines, he now appreciates what I love about a white kitchen. It needs to be creamy because he feels just about the same wrt stark white as he does about black, but now that I have done some sims of our kitchen with white inset cabinets, he's really excited about it.

Mondragon - OMG! What can I say? Its just magical!!!!!

RE: Chrome vs Stainless Steel - when we did our kitchen refresh, I got a faucet with a stainless steel finish because it was an expensive item for cheap on eBay and that's how it came. We really like the look of the finish with the Ticor sink. However, in this case, the stainless is just a plating over base brass, so it is susceptible to wear just like ORB. Chrome is also a finish over base brass, but, from all of my reading, is much more durable that most of the other types (dunno about polished nickel). I did a quick search on 100% stainless. There aren't as many style choices and they tend to be spendy. We'll have to think about that.

Sweeby - they may have moved on from ORB on your part of the Gulf Coast, but I bet its still going strong down here in li'l ol' Clear Lake. I don't know if the South Carolinians are going to think we have D@mn Fool Yankee ideas or D@mn Fool Texan ideas, but we're gonna take some getting use to. LOL!

Casey - I was a pearls & twinsets kinda gal when I lived up North. But, Texas and a sweet, gentle guy from small town NC have smoothed so much of that away. Will I still have dinner parties with the table set with sterling flatware & Beleek china & crystal stemware? Yes, but it will come from a kitchen that the two of us can live with without sullying the perfection of the CWK. Your right, once I go with a highly figured material like Bianco Antico granite, I've broken the paradigm and it would be worse to try to shoehorn the rest of the classic elements into the design and "pretend" that I have a CWK than it is to re-imagine a different style inspired by the ideal. We don't have a Shingle Style house. We don't even have something that might be called Shingle Style Revival. What we have is an homage to the Shingle Style which we hope is more than a mere pastische.

rhome410 - awwwwww shucks! Being able to write it all down has helped, so much. I'm so grateful that DH & I are able to do this build. As nerve wracking as it might be, I think this is a time of growth for us.

((((((Hugs to All))))))

Jo Ann