BIG NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry for the delay in posting, LOTS going on. First, a major housekeeping issue:

Thank you, thank you , thank you to all again who read and post (both positive and 'constructive') comments. I think it was Charles H. Cooley who said "our perception of ourself is based on the observations of others". Meaning, we view ourselves by what others say about us (hopefully to us and not behind our backs). I welcome the comments about my shortcomings as much as what I do right.

halfdecaf - thanks, i have worked with and have known a LOT of other men in my life. i do not like how men treat women. i have always been better friends with women than men, and my wife is my best friend. i really think that i treat her exceptionally well (not trying to blow my own horn here, just saying), and she has said the same to the therapists. your other comments were VERY good, and rather than answer them individually, i think the next news that i have might answer yours and almost everyone else's questions!!

ok, to sum up, we had a new therapist appt. she recommended a complete bloodwork and physical for my wife. she also said that in addition to continued counseling, that we need to get my wife in for individual counseling so that she can be seen by a psyhchologist for potential for depression medication. she also concluded, within 15 minutes (but also under further review), what the first therapist had said: that my wife had shown signs of depression.

ok, fast forward to yesterday. we went to my wife's OB/GYN for her bloodwork/'physical'. this doctor has known my wife for 15 years. she delivered both our children, has done my wife's checkups for the last 15 years, and has taken care of any other 'womens' issues that my wife has had over this time. this doctor is about the same age, has 3 children, lives near us, and is nearly identical to my wife in almost every way (lol). to sum up, she identified with my wife and was a 'friend' to her and knew her very very well. She knew that before this day, that there were no issues such as abuse, rape, etc.etc., and that my wife and i were in love (actually her husband is a doctor too, and i was a patient of his). anyway, we were in there for 15 MINTUES and explaining (i was very careful to let my wife explain and not me, i kept quiet), why we were there, and why we were 'in' counseling when the doctor said, point blank: 'you do not have a medical condition, you are depressed'.

we were both shocked. she basically concurred with what both therapists said, and we had not even told her yet that both therapists said that she had shown signs of depression. to make this long story short, she took another 45 minutes to talk and examine, took blood, and offer advice. she WROTE a prescription for anti-depression medication and sent the bloodwork off just to be sure.

fast forward to today. we got a call that her bloodwork was clean, no medical problems. she is now on celexa until we can get to the individual therapy appointment next week, which i am not sure what is going to happen, because i am sure that they were not counting on her medical doctor putting her on anti-depressants (i am not sure that thought that they could!). we thought that we would rule out medical problems (hopefully), then go to therapy and get depression treatment. we sort of skipped a step, but we fully confident in her medical doctor and will follow up with the therapist.

sorry to make this post longer, but...

we seem to be getting along much better. i know that seems like sort of a miracle, and it's not due to 2 days of Celexa. it started 1 1/2 weeks ago, before the therapy. this forum helped, the therpay helped. the medical doctor helped. sleeping at the bottom of the bed REALLY helped (i know some of you don't understand that, but it did). she has been more affectionate overall, has slept next to me every night (again, even if it's at the bottom, and still not as bad as it seems), seems happier overall, and had actually asked me to rub her feet one night (yay!). we ironically had always had sex on regular occasions, so that hasn't really changed. i'm hoping that the length and passion level increases, but that remains to be seen.

i hope to post another update, but i hesitate to post just to bump this up because others need advice too. i'm not really sure at this point what had triggered any of the change, other than the actual 'good' therapy and maybe the hard look in the mirror by reading all of your posts (again, many thanks). maybe it was my reaction to the flower....?? i was really, really hurt. whatever it was, let's hope it stays. she is beautiful both inside and out and i am one of the luckiest men alive. i love her.

well, off to counseling :-)

blizzard

Aww Blizz, thats great news, I am glad things are beginning to work out for you.

That's wonderful news!

I hope the Celexa does the trick. But remember, if you don't see results right away, I've heard it can take up to six weeks to take effect, and that the first week of so, she might feel some unpleasant side effects. But stick with it -- and if Celex isn't the magic bullet, take another shot with another medication.

The most important thing is the teamwork.

"she is beautiful both inside and out and i am one of the luckiest men alive. i love her."

She's pretty lucky too.

So glad things are looking up for you both...what a difference a week or two can make!

You are both lucky, and I am pulling for both of you that things just get better and better. If Mom and Dad are happy and loving, it brings more security to the kids, too. And it teaches them what a successful marriage can be, setting a good role model for them.

God help me.

or someone, please. i guess i spoke too soon. i said that she had changed somewhat before after our talks, but this time was different. i thought that the triggers this time really had clued her into making changes and sticking to them. i know that the medication takes longer than a week (9 days now), but there is a new problem.

she went to an individual therapy session with the therapist, planned, which wasn't an issue except for one small detail. this was the session that was to determine if she was supposed to be put on medication for anit-depressants (or whatever), but if anyone recalls, her OB/BYN prescribed them at her 'physical' a week earlier. well, the therapist said that after meeting with her in our joint sessions (and now the 2 hour individual one) that she seems to be suffering more from anxiety related symptoms (that need treated) that could be causing depression. the therapist was going to call the OB and see about changing (maybe) the medication to match the symptoms.

so.......although she accepted that the therpist said that the medication that she is taking now could be correct, she thinks that it is doing no good. so she now thinks that she feels no different than before. so she now is acting no different from before. changed overnight. yay me.

also, to answer the plethora of questions that may be asked, no, nothing else changed. i have been supportive. the kids have been good. our sex life had not changed at all (and no, i did not ask for any more). she even told the therapist in her individual session that i had been 'the most wonderful and supportive husband there is' -in her own words.

don't post respones please. i know what the answers are. my questions now relate to what i should to with myself.

b

What you should do with yourself? --

1) Remind yourself that your wife is going through some very tough times of her own, but that she is in the process of getting help, so that things will get better.

2) Also remind yourself that right now, your wife thinks you are 'the most wonderful and supportive husband there is' and this is a very, very valuable thing. Don't screw that up.

Remind yourself, from time to time, that "this too will pass".

Things will get better.

Remember the positives in your situation. Your lovely children, you lovely wife, and home.

You are a lovely person, who cares deeply for his wife and her happiness, thats really special and you should be very proud of yourself for being that wonderful supportive person.

P

The important thing is that your wife STICKS WITH her counseling.No drug is going to be the "magic cure",in fact,many depressed people have to try SEVERAL different medications before finding the right one for them.There is no reason for her to get discouraged.
Another poster was right anyways about how most anti-depressants take AT LEAST 30 days to work,so your wife would not be feeling any effects already.It was simply a "placebo" effect,that she thought it was working so she thought she felt better.

One other thing to remember -- If you are tempted to do something like an affair, it's not just your marriage that you could mess up -- It's your whole life -- your home, your children and their childhoods, your family, your self-respect and standing in the community.

Stick by your wife and work together to solve this problem. Together, you two can do it.

Hi blizzard19 -

Sorry that DH has not had a permanent improvement. You mentioned the possibility of her having an anxiety disorder which is contributing/causing the depression. The medicine prescribed can be a catalyst to change but she will also need cognitive therapy as well to sustain the improvement. From what I read lately on the subject, our own thoughts can cause changes in the chemicals in our brains that make us feel unhappy and depressed. It is probably an interaction of our own unique inborn biology and the manner in which we were trained to perceive life's events. In other words, if we were raised to make a big deal over every little thing that does not work out right (our way), or if we judge people's mistakes and are rigid about giving approval to loved ones, or take everything very serious and final, then those attitudes and beliefs work together to make us feel, anxious, perfectionsists, guilty, nervous, etc. Basically, unhappy cause life is full of obstacles and making a mistake or not having the cleanest house or "best" children in the world is not practical. That way of thinking is sure to make a person miserable, depressed and anxious.

I don't know if your DH operates in life in the manner I described. I do know, from my own experience, that I shares some of those traits. I also know how I obtained them.

During my journey, I had to let go of many of my "ideals" because I came to learn that life is not perfect and my belief of what life should be was all in my mind. All in my head. Why, because I was thrown many a curve ball that were unplanned for and came about out of no where. I had to learn to adjust. I had to learn to accept that I was not the G_d of my life.

It is an epiphany for some people while others have always been able to walk the gentler path.

Perhaps this interplay is part of your DH's problem. If it is, my hope for the two of you as that she can let go of the old ways and float above some of life's annoyances so you two can enjoy the wonderful life that lays ahead.

Take care.

'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,(Zechariah 4:6)

I meant to say DW (wife) in my prior post not DH (husband).

I can't help but see how one sided this whole thread is. Surely we all know bad marriages are two sided. Blizzard, you're hurting I can see that. But you're foolish to think you've done nothing wrong. So, a few thoughts here from the other side of the issue (even though I'm not your Mrs., I can see where she's coming from). Whoa, whoa, whoa on her being abused and is a terrible at showing affection. You keep saying she's capable of doing it everywhere else. If she can, she can. She won't with you, it shows. And there's a reason. Her reason. What does she say it is? Listen to her, it's not stupid, unreasonable, wrong or "depression-induced". Her depression may very well be situational from being unheard for so long!

You sound like you really mean well and really do like her. But do you express your dislike of her actions to her on a consistent basis? That is on a daily, hour to hour basis? Or do you find something good to say and ignore (that is do nothing, say nothing) about her outward expression of dislike for the situation? She aint happy and you can see it. What I am saying is no one wants to hear how horrible they are, having it harped on constantly and having it pounded into their brain; it's very unmotivating to be around. Who wants to give themselves to someone who dislikes them??? That sounds crazy!!! Worse, no one wants to have the other person point out how wonderful they are, always saying, "Are you too dumb/stupid/etc. to see what is right in front of you?" even if not said outloud. You love her. Say it, stop saying the bad things, it can only help her feel good about how she thinks you think about her.

Even if you are offering affection, you seem to expect to her like just exactly what you like. Are you doing what she wants at all? Maybe she hates flowers and would prefer a mixing bowl. Not most people (me included!), but maybe she is like that. That doesn't maker her weird for liking something other than what you like. That makes her, well, her; she's just being her quirky self. Appreciate it and buy her the bowl to gush over. If you only give what you want to have, you're not listening to her or hearing what she's saying, you're trying to make her conform to your selfish (sorry, I wish there was a better word) idea of what is "right".

Last, marriage is two sided. She's not posting her side. Maybe she feels defeated and doesn't care what she does because she knows it wouldn't make any difference to her, she still wouldn't be happy... because, her needs are unmet as her husband won't listen to what she wants, needs and likes. Because, you tells her she's an idiot for not wanting flowers and wanting a mixing bowl. She can't be herself and be appreciated for who she is. Don't be surprised if she speaks up and that's what you hear in counseling, you too are doing something wrong. She's been supressing it and disguising it by channeling it to her children who do appreciate her in many ways she can see and feel. Follow their lead.

That said, I wish you all the best and if sorry if my answer was hard to hear. You want help? Here it is. Take it with the heart it is meant, to be helpful for seeing her side.

rob,

i hadn't intended to repost, but your response was sent to my email. i do apprereciate the comments, and you are correct that, just as with my kids, you typically hear one side of the story.

i will answer you in what i can only profess to you and whomever will believe that i am telling the truth. i suppose those who have been in this position will believe me, those who have not won't.

you said we had a bad marriage - my wife never viewed it that way. she wanted it, and still wants everything, to stay the way it is, SHE was happy.

you said she can show it elsewhere but not with me, but that it wasn't medical or 'depression' related - the therapist and her OB/GYN both said it WAS a syptom of depression and/or anxiety to withhold affection from your SPOUSE and not from children (even pets). why? i don't know yet. i'm still trying to hold myself together long enough...

you said i expect her to like what i like - i never said nor expected that. i have always asked her what she would like, from flowers to gifts, to massages, to just plain i love you's during the day. Rob, i totally recognized the fact that she needed her space, and i would purposefully give it to her. i would go for DAYS without getting within FEET of her, and would then only try and touch the small of her back as i kissed her good morning once in a while. is that too much??? i NEVER told her 'this is what i want you to do'. never.

tells her she an idiot for wanting flowers? - of course i never said that. i recognized that she disliked spending $100 on flowers, so i never did it. i sent that single rose and a card because i wanted to tell her that i was thinking of her from 300 miles away. i did that ONCE because i hadn't done it in a while. i NEVER made her feel bad about that (other than her reaction to it), nor anything else ever. i NEVER called her names or bullied her into reactions that i wanted. yes, i was VERY hurt by that one incident, and i used the word 'gush' on that one, but she had no emotion at all, wouldn't you have expected some??

she is defeated and feels that her husband won't listen... - for the record. i have been the one to initiate conversations over the last 10 years. i have been the one that has brought her down, out of bed, to talk about what we can do to save the marriage no less than 30 to 40 times. i have been the one to ask what it is that i can do, in tears (mine not hers) to change to make her happy. i was the one who called the therapist and set the appointments (and oh, by the way, i was the one who got her the individual therapist appointment). i suppose if i was afraid of what she would say in private i would not have done that.

she's been suppressin and channeling to children who appreciate her... - yes, there is an 'enmeshment' there that is unhealthy, we have discussed that. but know this, she gets VERY frustrated with the kids and snaps at them in ways that she never has with me. she says mean and hurtful things to the kids (because she is so close to them??) that she never says to me. go figure that one out. and yes, i talked to the therapist about that.

well, with all that said, i do appreciate your comments, and i DO take responsibility for my actions. i know that i have issues of my own that i am working on, but they have not led me to where i am specifically at today. i am insecure in part because of my lack of intimacy. i want my wife and i want nothing more than to see her and my children happy.

thank you again.

b

Hi Blizzard,

Really quick...

1) It's good that the physician and the therapist are talking. Treatment of this kind often involves a web of caregivers, each of whom as a piece of insight/information to contribute. Their ultimate goal is most likely the same: to get their patient/client to a healthier place. It may seem frustrating - like taking a step backwards, perhaps? - to switch meds, but it's not uncommon to adjust meds and their dosages, especially in the early days of treatment and/or if things change for the patient/client. If anxiety is indeed part of what's going on for your wife, that's a pretty important piece of the puzzle that needs to be taken into account and treated appropriately.

2) "Overnight" changes are pretty rare - especially when you're talking about something as complex as issues involving someone's mind, body and interpersonal relationships. Anti-depressants alone aren't an instant, comprehensive fix, in most cases. What they do is regulate brain chemistry so that intense highs and lows of emotion are evened out, giving the person emotional "space" to work on cognitive, behavioral and relational issues that are difficult to approach when one's in the midst of a depressive state.

3) From your description, she's got some work ahead of her. And so do you. Exploring issues of anger and emotional detachment can take people to very tender places sometimes. If you're in couples' counseling you'll both probably go down that road. She almost certainly will at some point in her individual counseling. This is one of the times that the rubber really hits the road in your wedding vows, as she may need your support more than ever in the weeks and months to come.

4) If you find that being the kind of husband you want/need to be to her is getting hard, or that this is bringing up "stuff" for you, you may want to also consider individual counseling as well (with someone other than your couples' therapist).

All the best - keep hanging in...it's worth it.

I don't want to sound mean but unless your wife trully is mentally ill she is playing a really unplesant game.

I myself is "too nice" type of a person and am willing to put up with whatever, but even I would have enough of it!

No one needs to go through what you have to go through.

There are a lot of affectionate loving women out there who would appreciate you. She might be a nice person but what she does is rather nasty. Now if she is trully emotionally and mentally ill, she needs to seriously get a very serious treatment.

I would give it some time and then as much as it hurts I would leave if it does not change. Maybe it would be a wake up call or if not, then you deserve some happiness.

This thread made me very angry thinking that some women out there get nice husbands and treat them like crap, pardon my language. I would love to tell your wife what i think of her to her face.

I understand it is a commitment and you don't feel you can just bail out, but I doubt you signed up for this when you got married. She better starts treating you right if this marriage means something to her. So far it sounds like it only means something to you. This woman makes me angry and I don't even know her, I don't get it how you put up with her on a daily basis.

In my opinion the OP's eyes have just recently opened to see the extent of this issues he is dealing with. The realization that the problems they are having as a couple are not going to resolve (at least not by themselves).

As this is a first attempt to seek outside help it seems that it would be only fair to give that a chance before leaping to negative conclusions.

Just like everything else in life, the OP should consider the positive and negatives that will come out of any life altering decisions (such as divorce or affairs). Although, I am not one to advocate either of those choices, it isn't a happy or healthy situation for the OP either. He will have to be the one to do the "soul" searching necessary to make a decision. Hopefully, the OP will put the most effort he can into trying outside help (as they are both doing now) before he gives up. Even if DW remains the same, the OP, can change his expectations (if he wants to) in order to sustain the marriage.

I do think, though, that it is a little premature to start thinking about divorce before all the other avenues of approach have been explored.

If the DW in this situation could only see all the damage that is coming out of her issues and do something to change. Everyone thinks that change comes about solely in the mind. Often times it is in the "doing" that works to change the mind.

Hoping that things work out as there are children who love and need their parents.

Children need parents but parents need happiness too. And I doubt children need to a part of this mess. Children need happy family and happy parents, I don't see this happening here. Children are already troubled by sleeping with their mother and it only going to get worse.

This woman shows no appreciation for her husband and frankly does not care about him suffering and suffocating. I do wish she reads these posts and understands what she does to her own husband. She sounds plain evil to me.

If she would have serious issues she would not be affectionate toward her dogs, cats, and kids (sorry putting it in one sentence). She apparently knows that you are willing to put up with her aso she exercises her power.

And her not sleeping with you has nothing to do with children. You said she sleeps at the bottom of your bed (how disrespectful)-this is nothing to do with the kids. She does not want to sleep with you, period. Why would you want to spend your life with someone who does not sleep with you, does not touch you, does not show any consideration etc. Do you not repsect and love yourself enough?

Frankly if things won't change in a few months I would be running not just walking out. And I would insist on full custody of the kids because she is seriously damaging them.

It sounds pretty naive that it is going to get better. You were together 15 years and things are only getting worse what makes you to believe that it will get better?

Finedreams,I was thinking the same things I just didnt have the heart to say it.
The sleeping at the bottom of the bed thing is VERY disrespectful and extremely odd too.
Either his wife is cold and very manipulating or like you said has a SEVERE MENTAL ILLNESS.
None of it sounds normal at all.

excatly. Unless of course OP does something that makes her resentful and emotionally detached. My SO has drinking problem (I left him, then stupid me came back)and when he drinks I feel resentful and detached then I do not want to be touched. There must be something causing her to detach, but...then she has to tell OP what it is. If she is not saying but then still act weird, then she is just evil or messsed up in her head.

profess to you and whomever will believe that i am telling the truth. i suppose those who have been in this position will believe me, those who have not won't. Oh, I believe you... plenty. What I know is, perception, while it feels truly real, isn't always the reality of the situation. Yes, I know you feel you're doing the best you can, and you probably are, but that doesn't make it the best for your marriage. Is it really what she wants? Be sure to take a step back and really look at yourself if you want true change. Are you loving her in all the ways she wants and needs? Or are you trying to "get" her to love you? Ask and answer it honestly. Not here, but to yourself. Profess your short comings, those you keep saying you have, but keep playing down. Read it, up there, above. Notice how you keep doing it? You can't have a strong marriage built on anything less than the most truthful truth. Inside and out. BOTH of you.

Best wishes! My heart aches for you, your wife and your precious children.

uh.

How is it "disrespectful" to another person to sleep where you can get to sleep?

& she's making progress;
she's in the bed with her husband.

To a person with anxiety, panic attacks, or depression, relationships with equals (spouses) are much scarier than relationships with children or pets.

She's doing the best she can, he's doing the best he can, & *they're making progress*.

This poor guy came here & poured out his heart, & *said* that he loves his wife, & said that both the doctor & the therapist recommend medication & therapy, & people jump in & call her "evil or just messed up in her head" (I hope that poster never doubts that she or her spouse or her children are functioning normally) & attack her & advise blizzard to get a *divorce*?

Sleeping with their mother will not "damage" the children; divorce will damage every member of the family.

blizzard, be patient, forward movement will be in tiny tiny steps, hang in there.

So do you think it is healthy for children to watch their mom being cold and inaffectionate with their father? Or do you think children don't know? D

ivorce is damaging but living in a misreable family where the father suffers and feels suffocating is possibly even more damaging. And we are not talking about trying for few years, we are talking about 15 years of struggle! You suggested to people to end their marriage over one argument, you don't think 15 years of unhappiness is good enough reason?

What I see most clearly is an extra 500-1,000 per month (or more?) for ongoing therapy which may or may not accomplish anything. From blizzard's description, his wife can change her behavior more-or-less instantly depending on what she thinks, notwithstanding medication and advice. I've known many people who use their on-going therapy to justify/excuse however they're behaving in a never-ending sequence. It's very difficult -- even for professionals -- to separate controllable from uncontrollable issues. I certainly don't know what's going on here except for the strange behavior described, but there would be a limit to my compassion/understanding/endurance. Appears to me that blizzard's enduring admirably but I have no expectation that changes in the wife will be other than a very long time coming with the possibility that they will never come and what has been described will simply be how it will be indefinitely. I would love to be wrong about that, but I doubt that I am. What a miserable way to live! Even with the kids, I don't think I could stand it as long as OP has.

Blizzards description of his wife/children/'bed life' etc could be mine... except my husband and I have other "issues" than blizzard and his wife have (my husband has anger and resentment over me leaving my job to stay home to raise children, I have anger and resentment over his lack of involvement with anything not 'work related'... which btw was a MAJOR reason for me leaving my job in the first place)

That said... I don't want to take over blizzard's thread, but I do want to give a perspective from someone who does put her energy and love into her children and not into her husband... who has minimal interest in sex with a man who barely speaks to her unless it's work related or schedule related... who has an 8 year old who has slept almost every waking night of her life in her parents bed, plus a 13 YO and a 15 YO who also slept with mom, each until the next arrived... and then when dad was travelling (which btw for many years was at least 4 nights per week) the older two would take turns sleeping with me and the youngest... now the middle one (my son) rarely comes into my bed, but if dad is travelling the oldest (daughter) will join me and the youngest daughter.

How did my children start to be in my bed??? Well let's see, when the oldest was born, and we were both working full time, 60+ hour professional work weeks, with 1+ hours each way commutes, DH would get hostile when she woould wake during the night as he 'needed to sleep because he had to work in the morning' I guess I was just going into my office to have coffee???? Anyway, it was easiest, quickest, and lazy.. but I would get up and get her and then feed her while laying in bed with her between us, so I would fall asleep and she would fall asleep that way... then it became habit for her to want to be there if she woke up... so she would start in her crib and always end up with us (or me if he was travelling)... and so began the cycle that for us went on for years... (my oldest is 15, she was 7 when the youngest arrived...

That's my 'children in my bed' saga...

As for a lack of interest in sex... my case sounds very different than blizzards

Truly I thnk we both love each other... we just don't really like each other these days... but right now we're both willing to try to work on our life and try come to some meeting of the minds together... I hope blizzard and his wife can do the same... I think I could easily be her, so I understand more of where her mind is... which is why I suggested to him way back that maybe she needs some time to herself... does she get to do anything alone? with her own friends? hide out in her room alone with a book? or do whatever hobby she once had? I'm guessing her life revolves around her children and her house... she needs some personal space to find herself as a person, not someone's mom... does she view herself as desirable or does she see herself as a tired mom... she neeeds to be an individual with varied interests... and once she gets some personal perspective back, then maybe she can be a wife again...

sorry for the delay is response. i did want to get back to some excellent points. things are very up and down, and like i said before i hate to keep bumping this post, but if it ever helps anyone else, then it's worth it.

briefly, we had another joint appt yesterday. the depression med is not working. the therapist and OB are trying to get her on an anti-anxiety med (don't know what yet) as they think this is causing the problems. she (my wife) does go back and forth between her old self and seeming to making an effort. the one post where i 'gave' up was after four days of her not coming downstairs after putting the kids to bed, and letting our daughter take over the spot at the end of the bed despite my objections (please don't go off on this, it was bad enough).

on a positive note, the therapist said that we are very invested and seem to be doing very well.

finedreams - thanks. i appreciate your comments. i have this vision in my head that most people, married or not, want to be loved. i also am a hopeless romantic, so it does not help. ironically, i am 6'2" 215 pounds and have always looked like a football running back (played when i was younger), but we took the kids to see Enchanted (Disney movie)last weekend and i teared up when he kissed her and she woke back up (posioned like Sleeping Beauty).

rob - i really do appreciate you playing the devils advocate (fairly well, lol). two points - first, to be clear, i always asked her what she wanted from me. she would always answer the same: for things to stay the same (in other words nothing). i also NEVER asked her to be something that she was not. meaning, although i wanted things from her (intimacy, but rememeber not sex, well, not more sex), i never told her that she HAD to do things. i always spoke to her and told her my feelings and explained that these were the things missing in my life and that i would like SOME of them some of the time. she had options to chose, and even make some up herself. for example, i would ask her to hug me once a week. if that was not acceptable, then she could come up with something of her own, like coming up behind me while i was typing on the computer and leaning against me and putting her hand on my shoulder. rob, i'm talking VERY simple things, not kinky sex. second, although i always tried to do things to make her life easier so she would be happy, i never really tried to control her happiness. the therpaist said that i cannot make her happy, only she can. i always did things (and still do) so that my wife life is easier so that she is less frustrated (anxious), and would get less angry with me and the kids. that translated into happier times with me and the kids, although never into intimacy. at least it caused less depression with me. finally, i;ve asked her 1000 times what it is she wants. the therapist asked what she wants. her answer is always the same: for things to stay the same

divorce? no. affair? no, neither of us, trust me. she is not evil (i didn't take offense to that). it is just so hard to explain. she really is a great person, why else would i want to be with her? i started to list her good points but it sounded like i was making a 'to do' list. there were too many to list.

i just can't get her to understand the intimacy thing still (that's why this whole thread started, lol). she can't understand when we do have sex why i react the way that i do. without getting into detail, i still find her very attractive (and she says me), plus i love her dearly. so when we do have sex (not enough, but that's ok) i enjoy 'being' with her. she basically wants to 'finish' (which she always has), and then get me done with and get it over with. i want to, um, enjoy my time with her (go figure) and she doesn't get it. well, i guess at least i'm having sex once a month so that qualifies as touching, lol. not the same as intimacy. think about all the women who complain about men who want just sex with no intimacy, same thing. not funny.

well, i've said too much.

blizzard

Blizzard,no one can blame you for wanting sex.The one person you're supposed to be able to get it from is your wife.I think that was alot of FINEDREAMS point.

I have to agree with plumbly that maybe half your wife's problem is not having a life.It doesnt sound like she gets out much,or even wants to for that matter.Is there anyway she can take a class or start some yoga? Maybe just get her nails done every two weeks with a famliy member or friend? It doesnt sound like she thinks of herself as being very sexual,and maybe she needs to do something to change her perspective of herself.A reminder that she is not just mom,but a hot lady who still has needs?

I also agree with asolo that it seems like a situation that may never get better...and for your sake I hope that's not true.

hi

I posted on the genetics of sexual desire on another thread. I thought it might be of interest and am mentioning it here, again. According to a recent study (attaching the link below) there now is evidence that people are born with low, high, average sex drive. It is inherited. I wonder if the therapists take this new information into account. I think that it would be helpful to people in these situations whether they be low or high sex drive because it would remove some of the "hurt" that the disparity in sex drive causes in couples. There is a lot of finger pointing and blaming each other when it reaches a crisis point. After reading it myself, I felt that people would search for possible reasons in their personal history that they could use to blame their problem on. They could have had past issues.
also pathologize everything that ever happened to them in life to blame the sex issues on. The low sex drive person might feel angry and pressured if their partner continues to pressure them for sex which might be a bigger reason for them becoming even more turned off. I have no real proof to back this up but just my thoughts on it.

Men with impotency have Viagra to help with that issue. But, there hasn't been a drug that enhances desire. Often, the problem is not about the inability to perform (as in men) but more about not having the desire to engage in the act.

I read on the net that there is soon to be a new drug coming out that helps with that part of it. Bremolanotide is the name of it and instead of working on the physical part (as viagra does) it targets brain chemistry (mind)and initiates sexual desire. It is the desire that is probably the missing piece to the puzzle. You can read about it:
"Drug Boosts Sex Drive"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12867311/

These situations can be very convoluted with churning up old issues, problems in the relationship unrelated to sex, personality problems, etc. I think that there is an interplay between the two and having issues might also increase their lack of desire. But, taking into account that the differences in the couple's biology (inherited low/high sex drive)is an important causative factor for the problems in relating to each other as regards intimacy.

You may never be able to fully understand the reason and hope this information may be helpful.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060529102546.htm

sorry i forgot to address one point in my last post. someone said "unless alcohol or something like that is involved". the answer is no. we drink EXTREMELY little, neither of us smoke or, do drugs. we do not have any other problems like anorexia or things like that destroy people.

plumbly, the therapist told her to take up yoga (seriously, she just said it two days ago). she said for her to go to a class, but my wife said that she would not go to a class and asked if she could get tapes and do them at home (i was sitting right there listening to the whole thing). the therapist warned her about ANY distractions during the yoga. this is just an example, though, of her not wanting to do the things away from home. no one knows why. about the her being a hot lady thing - she knows she is attractive. i think this applies both physically and mentally, but i tell her all the time about different things that i like about her. for example, she has great hair, but she NEVER used to keep it really neat (clean and brushed, just not wow neat). i actually had to have her buy a flat iron and now she uses it (i always loved her straight brunette hair). that is one example of many that i point out to her constantly, but i do tell her often that she is cute, beautiful, and/or pretty (not all at once, just whatever the situation). i joke with her that she is a milf, lol. she has said something along the lines of us being one of the better looking couples 'at school', so she has at least some type of good image of herself.

tender, thanks for the link, i read part, i need to go back when i have the time. i am curious about the hereditary part about sex drive v. intimacy. i made sort of a mistake on my last post and put intimacy and sex on the same line. i wanted to be clear that my goal was mental and physical contact involving intimacy outside of sex, but IF more sex resulted (which by default it should), then fine. if not, and more intimacy results, then fine too! :-)

thanks!!

b

The title of this post is a misnomer, I bet. I would bet that the wife FEELS more emotion than a lot of people do, because she doesn't express it. (I can only imagine what it's like living with her -just HEARING about her makes me want to go bonkers! LOL)

She says everything is fine. Yet she won't leave the house, and she refuses to touch you even though you have said that you need to be touched. She is not expressing true feelings and thoughts. It's as simple as that.

I would create a safe way for her to communicate. Ask her to talk to you on the phone, in a letter form, text message, whatever- and try not to question anything, or expect anything, just reflect her thoughts. She needs to learn it's okay to speak her mind.

She's afraid of something - and it's not necessarily your fault, but you may be the key to turn this around.

she needs to go and work, kids are old enough to be in school or preschool or whatever, she needs to feel that she is more than just a mom. Why doesn't she work?

And another thing I notice that when women complain that they are mistreated everyone stands on their side and suggest they don't put up with it,. This woman clearly mistreats her husband (even if unintentionally and due to health problem) and everyone feels sympathy and support for HER not him. So men are supposed to put up with whatever? Biased view to say the least

Ok, who else is mad at blizzard for spoiling the movie "Enchanted"? You'd be banned from the movie forum, boy! ;-)

Lots of woman with school aged kids don't work. There's still enough stuff to keep mom's busy. Granted, she needs to try to fit in some activities for herself, but I don't think her lack of working outside the home is her problem especially if they don't need the money. Plus a job could just cause more stress for her in the long run.

I have an answer for your second question, finedreams, but it's probably not right for this post and I just don't feel like being flamed right now.

carla,

sorry!!!!!!!!!! i didn't think about that. but honestly, you can see it coming 15 minutes in. i liked the movie. susan sarandon did an interview where she said she was happy because she can now be made into a toy, lmol.

about communication, i have written emails to her many times before. i thought that this was a less empassioned and more reasoned approach, and would allow her to answer in her own way and time. she doesn't like it, lol. short of sign language or smoke signals, she knows that she needs to comunicate. i guess that therapy is the way now. again, though, she has been in individual and joint sessions, and has been in private medical appointments (except for this very last one) for 15 years (oops, except for the ones involving having kids, i was there for the ultrasounds and stuff), and she has been asked over and over what she wants. she has the chance, without me, to express herself, and she says nothing is wrong!!

you know, i told the therapist that my fear was that the kids were going to be in middle school and one day she would wake up (theorectically) and say 'i'm bored and you never challenged me and i want a divorce'. this despite the fact that i've offered her to work (rather, told her that i supported her if she wanted to work or not), told her she could get her masters (she has BS in International Marketing), go see her old friends (she harldy does), and i offered MANY times to take her shopping (which i like to do).

i mentioned waaaay earlier in the thread that she keeps busy with 1. kids 2. school 3. her brothers businesses (i guess this is sort of work but from home) 4. her parents (her and her mom grocery shop). the problem was putting ME in there.

finedreams does have a point, and i had given up on occasion, but not to the point of leaving. in some respects, it is abuse. i really beat myself up over this, still do. i still have hope.

b

"She says nothing is wrong". You do realize don't you, that something IS wrong, and she is just not expressing it - right?

I just want to make sure you're not trying to convince us that she's really happy, nothing is wrong, but that she just doesn't touch you.

When was the last time you had an argument?
You know what we say about couples that don't argue - most of the time that means that one person is always getting their way.

Perhaps she doesn't know how to wrap her brains around what is wrong. Maybe you present yourself to her as you do to us as the perfect man, so how in the world could she complain out loud?

What if you try doing something different - obviously being perfect doesn't help. God knows if I was married to a perfect man i'd strangle him. I need emotional space to understand my own desires and interests - women are difficult, I know....LOL!

Of course plenty of women don't work. But this woman is clearly not doing well so i am suggesting that maybe that is the problem.

If I would spend my life only cooking, cleaning, taking care of kids, seeing only my H, kids and ocassionally my mom I would become miserable and would not want to touch my H either because i will be unhappy! And possibly she is. There must be something else she wants in life!!!!
If it is not work, then there must be something she wants

I am an artist and if I denied opportunities to paint and exhibit and be a part of local art organizations I would become depressed! maybe she cannot do something what makes her happy.

It is a great job to be stay at home mom, but if she is unhappy then she needs to find something. Exercise, knitting, book club, I don't know...something!

people suggests H does something differently and of course he should try, but she needs to do her part and do something what makes her happy. She cannot make him happy because she is unhappy herself.

Amy's made some excellent points & has offered sensitive advice.

It sure sounds like depression to me, so profound that it's disabling.

What about Agoraphobia (or the fear of leaving your house?)
If she has anxiety,it can lead to to that.
Have they offered any anti-anxiety meds yet like XANAX? I used to get panic attacks and that was the only thing that helped at the time.

I think Xanax is a short term temporary fix and it's sort of additive... so she may need more and it while it will help her less. I think it's generally better for anxiety attacks or bad days, not longer term anxiety issues. Granted, I'm sure that's what she'll be prescribed because it's the one the insurance co's or whoever are pushing this week-- LOL

Anyway, and I'm no doctor, but I would think BusPar may be a really good choice for her. I hope they choose that. As an added benefit it often increases sexual desire and function. In fact, it is sometimes prescribed to offset sexual disfunction in people taking anti-depressants. It may work wonders for her on many levels. Regardless of what they give her, I hope they are at least trying something.

Well of course I didnt mean for long term Carla.Her therapy is what will help with the REASONS why she has these problems (whatever they may be)but sometimes they give medication until the therapy has started working.

For me the xanax was never taken on a daily basis,but only when seriously needed so I didnt get addicted.
Cuz nothing was worse then being out somewhere and having a panic attack and not being able to calm down.(I had mine because of a car accident,so I would panic and freak out in the car)

I'm not saying that is what she should take either.Once again,just throwing around ideas and exploring all options.
Since anti-depressants and the like take so long before they work.

Oh, I didn't mean to argue with you of... of course if she's having anxiety or panic attacks Xanax may be good for her. I just thought she may have something more along the line of GAD (Generalized Anxiety Disorder) and a longer term/ daily anxiety drug may be needed to help her constant anxiety. I don't have as much faith as you in therapy curing her longer term anxiety; it sounds to me like she may need an actual daily anxiety drug to help her with that.

she was put on Zoloft two days ago and off the Celex. we are hoping that this makes a bigger difference. the therapist and OB seem to think that the anxiety was causing the depression and the other effects.

amy, i never intended to present myself that way. you are correct though. i did, however, in most of my posts, try and give hints that i have some other issues/problems that i am trying to resolve that are obvious deficiencies of mine that i never delineated here. what i tried to do here was to answer questions that were asked, and to fill in other gaps in the relationship that would give an overall picture of how our interpersonal life together is. me perfect? no way in hell. i have admitted that i do not believe that you can directly make someone else happy (or love you). but i try on a daily basis to make the environment around my wife and kids as condicive as possible to their liking such that the possibility exists that they WILL be happy. will they? sometimes they are, sometimes not, lol. the obvious relavence to this thread involves my wife. i am a very sensative guy. i also like to think that i am intelligent and have common sense. with those things said, i think that i can recognize the things that women (most women) would like. i watch movies, tv, and read magazines. there are things presented in media and that i hear from other women that lead me to believe that women, as a whole, like certain things. i consider myself a little more sensative to the needs (as i see it) of women than the average man. before anyone stands up and throws their coffee on the coputer, i hope that your 'man' is as "good" as i am. but believe me, i have worked, met, bumped into, or generally just known a TON of pigs (men) in my life that treat women normally, and it is NOT how i treat my wife. if i have presented myself as perfect, i am sorry. i am not, but i do things for her as a normal course of my day that is really no different for me than washing the dishes. but, even with al that said, i have major faults and flaws, and i suppose i will list them so everyone can judge. well, here goes.

1. i am too logical and reasoned. i don't do this with my wife but with others. i see the 'math' side of things, and get frustrated with people when they can't see the obvisou solution to problems (sans emotion, lol).

2. i am not close to my wife's family or my fmaily, but for different reasons. toooo long to list here.

3. i do not force the children discipline, but that is an issue with the marriage thing that we are working on.

4. i could probably dress better. jeans and t shirts with long shirts over are my normal. i work for myself so i don't have a reason to wear my suits. i am willing to dress up, but she will never go anywhere!!!

5. i really don't like myself despite have numerous talents (weird statement, huh?). i have been divorced once, and now she has intimacy problems. i feel like no one likes me so why should i like me??

6. i do get depressed and lonely very easy, but mostly when she has 'problems'. if she is happy, then i am happy. i guess this is a problem itself, but it is my deficiency, not hers.

7. i need to get back on a regular workout routine. kids and life get in the way (nooo, really? lol).

Ok, here it is, the absolute worst, I saved it for last. I drink maybe 1 drink every year or so. I do not smoke, no drugs, i NEVER yell, hit, scream, or abuse anyone. I really have no other bad vices or problems. Here is the one thing that I do that she knows about, that is the worst that I do, that some of you will hate me for, but I'm being honest.

8. I do look at porn on occasion. There, happy? No, i do not use it as a substitue. i would much rather have my wife, but as you KNOW, sometimes i can't HAVE my wife. why do men need porn? i don't know. sometimes i don't. sometimes i envision her :-) but hey, if it keeps me from an affair or a hooker, then how can it be all that bad. plus, and do NOT get me into this argument, cigarettes killed my father, and they are not illegal. porn is not illegal. i know, it objectifies women, and i'm sorry for that, but that again is an argument for a different thread just as tobaco is. and to be clear, we have watched together once or twice for 'spice'.

well, hate me if you will, but i am not perfect. all of these faults were there before, and 8 came well into the problems so it is not parts of the problem. sorry for the length

b.

The reason for my prior email was not to drag you down, I'm sorry it had that effect - rather, you gave us a puzzle in the beginning that made no sense. Still doesn't. Thing is, there IS an answer. The only thing we can get answers from is you, so there's an easy place to start. We all know that it takes two to create a relationship, and since you claim that she is loving to everyone and everything but you, then I figure you must be a part of that answer to this puzzle. I am not looking to burn you at the stake, but rather help you see that you may have more control of this puzzle than you realize. To come to an understanding that you are part of the problem, thus part of the solution, is actually empowering if you can set defensiveness aside.

This particular story is so interesting to me, because I believe that the answer to the problem is hiding. There is more information that we do not know. I'm trying to uncover what that is -

You suggest that we might be happy about your big confession - it's not about that. It's about working towards understanding the dynamics of your relationship. I would imagine that perhaps the answers to this puzzle are embedded here in this thread -

Forget about my opinion of porn - I'm guessing you struggle with it because you set it up in the same breath as illegal activity. Have you talked to your wife about this topic? To say that she joined you twice does not necessarily mean she is okay with it. We've already established that she doesn't express herself. Then again, if she's okay with it, you might be relieved to actually have a conversation where she genuinely reassures you that she's okay with porn. either way, a straight conversation is needed - it's these kinds of honest, difficult conversations that lead to more intimacy.

Once again, it doesn't matter one whit what we think. This is YOUR life.

Hey my DH looks at porn and I do not love him any less for it, I am thinking most men do, I am just glad DH is open to me about it, we actually fight over the copy of playboy to see who can find the playboy bunny on the front cover first. This by no means makes you a bad person, plus she knows about it, at least you are not hiding it as some men try to do.
I have not posted here before as I can see your wife does have medical issues and I really did not want to voice my opinion, but from everything I have seen that you have posted, this is not a issue with you, do not go down that spiral, I know it seems like no one is concentrating on you with everything that is going on with your wife,
And really all relationships do need nourishment from both ends and you are not getting this at the time. I am hoping this will change, you are a good man for sticking it out this far, it just shows how much you do love your wife, kudos to you:)

The porn is not as a problem so long as

1)she doesnt have a problem with it.

2)You dont let it interfere with your intimacy.(chose IT over her)

Being as you said she has looked at with you I doubt number one effects you.And being as you are here saying you WANT to have sex with your wife,I doubt number two as well.
So dont worry about not coming off as a saint here.You think we all are? LOL...

If she almost never touches you, then who can blame you for looking at porn? And you said your sex is sually quick because she has to go to kids and she sleeps with them. So you look at porn, what else do you suppose to do? Who can blame you for that? And if she does not like it, then maybe she should give you more attention, go somewhere with you and sleep with you not the kids. Don't be too hard on yourself.

"i actually had to have her buy a flat iron and now she uses it (i always loved her straight brunette hair). that is one example of many that i point out to her constantly"

You "had to have her buy" something to make her great (clean brushed) hair the way you want it. Ew. Just... Ew.

mary_md.

anyone can take anything out of this however they want...but that is not how it was intended. my point was that my wife is a beautiful woman who does (did) not take advantage of the time that the VAST majority of people do (men and women) to make themselves that much more 'them'. i wanted to say polished, but even that sounds like the wrong term. let me give you an example for me...

every once in a while, at my age, my ear hair and my sideburns get too long between haircuts. those things get VERY noticeable to me, so i cannot believe that they go unnoticed by others. if others see them in an unkempt state, and i would look better with them trimmed, then why would i not trim them before i went to get my hair cut (my stylist typically does it when i get my hair cut). my point was, my wife looks great with brunette hair, but when it is straightened with a flat iron, WOW. she looks like those girls on those commercials, i mean amazing. she does it every time now before she goes out (especially to school functions, lol). yes, i 'had to have' her buy it, but not for me, fir her. you mistook that.

as an update, she has been on Zoloft for almost two weeks. her period came with less syptoms than before, and her stress levels seem to be down. she has started home Yoga at the request of the therapist, and that seems to be helping. intimacy is improving, but it still has rooms for imrprovement, but there is an increase in contact so i am much happier than before. there has been talk about increasing the Zoloft dose, but after the next OB visit. again, i post this in hopes that others may benefit.

our biggest issues now center on the kids, and we are going to start on those with the therapist after the holidays. our 12th wedding anniversary is December 29th, and the therapist has orderd us to take a trip together (which i have been after for years), our very first one alone since the kids were born, for our anniversary. i have it scheduled for that date!. :-)

blizzard

good luck. It sounds like things are getting better!

Hi, I know this is a really, really old thread, but this guy's situation is so similar to mine, and it showed up on the first page of a Google search so I thought I'd save everyone the hassle of rehashing opinions that have already been made here. I thought it would help if I could add my opinion in case anyone else has the same problem.

I wonder how this couple are going now because the conversation ended so abruptly. And I don't think the couple were going down the road toward a resolution. It would be good to see if he has gained any wisdom.

As someone looking out from within the same kind of relationship, I've got the following comments to make.

I feel really sorry for the wife in this relationship. I think, as Bob tried to point out, the guy was trying very hard to show how right he was and that how it was all the wife's fault, and that she was the one with the problem who needed therapy and medication.

As a guy who also likes to be touched as a form of close contact, but who lives with a wife who doesn't, I think it is extremely judgemental to assume that the behaviour that you prefer is the right way. And to the people who were encouraging him, saying that he sounds like the perfect man, you were just feeding his ego and justifying his opinion. I do not believe you were helping their marriage to succeed. A guy who thinks he and his wife are the best looking couple at the school and buys his wife a hair straightener because he has judged that she doesn't maintain her looks well enough needs to get his priorities sorted out before he starts to examine his wife's flaws.

So, now that we have that out of the way, I hope I can share my opinion on my relationship. It may be a completely different situation to Blizzard19 or there may be a kernel of similarity.

For years I have thought that my wife was emotionless, because she didn't display the common signs of affection. Her family do not kiss or hug each other and are very poor at displays of affection. When they do is seems forced. My family does display affection in this way. I have often had Blizzard19s mindset on how I can get my wife to be more emotional. Then I started to examine what she regarded as fun, what she enjoyed. At Christmas and on other holidays, her family likes to sit around and ridicule each other. They rip each other to pieces and have so much fun doing it. I have always been uncomfortable in their family gatherings because of fear that I would become the butt of a joke that would last for half an hour and leave me humiliated.

Then I started to look at humour. It appears that you can laugh with someone (like the joy expressed in someone achieving a great thing) or you can laugh at them (as in pointing out people's weaknesses). To me, having my weaknesses pointed out is like being killed. And something is being killed, my pride. What I have discovered is that my wife's family comes from a position of safety. They are secure in themselves and their love for one another, and they have all been through the fire of ridicule and have found that they are still loved on the other side. And ridicule, and the fun that goes along with it, is their form of hugging each other, because it brings great merriment.

I come from a position of fear, where I think I need to be protected from dangers in the world, and ridicule looks like any other attack, it attacks the pride and humiliates, which like I said, feels like death and I feel like I have to fight it, though I have never learned this skills to rebuff an attack, just like my wife never learned to hug. So what feels like a hug to her and her family (a little humiliating joke) feels like an attack, and the same may be true from her perspective, a hug may feel awkward and forced and a bit intrusive.

If I were to ask the question, which form of interaction was superior, I would have to say hers, because it brings great joy amongst them and it also removes false pride. It is bare soul meeting bear soul, versus flesh meeting flesh.

I have only come to these realisations after a weekend of deep soul searching.

Having said the above, I would ask Blizzard19, if he was still around, what makes his wife laugh? What brings her pleasure as an end not a means. It may not be the type of joking around that my wife and her family enjoy, but there will be some form of non-physical love being expressed. If he examined her in the company of her family and saw what gave her joy he would find the way that she expresses her love, and if he cares about her, he would travel to where her pleasure is and meet her there.

That's the journey I am about to embark on.

Gary - perhaps you need to start a new thread ?

I am not sure I see the connection between your wife, and her interaction with her family and their apparent ridicule of each other, as affection ?

I would propose that this is a bit passive aggressive ?

But, I do see your point about there being different ways of showing affection apart from the traditional lovely dovey thing.

I am married to a person who is lacking in, what I would call "normal" ways of showing affection/ emotion etc.

After much thought on my part, I have started to think that my way is not the ONLY way ! So you and I are on the same path, my friend, and perhaps a lot of other people need to think this way.

It is a good topic for discussion and I urge you to start a new posting.

More to be said, I think.