Somebody else's house. Somebody else's marriage. Somebody else's lives. Nunnayer beeswax.

OK to be silently disappointed/annoyed. You're not entitled to intrude. If it's so bad you can't stand being over there, don't go. In any event, it's 100% their thing and 0% your thing to deal with.

Stay out of it, Mother-In-Law...
This is between your son and his wife, and there's nothing to be gained from interfering.

"My DIL has a much more relaxed attitude about this and as a result their 11 year old daughter tends to be somewhat messy."

Please don't blame your DIL for your GD's messiness. Every child seems to be born with an innate preference for order, chaos or something in between, and trying to change that innate predisposition is a losing battle. You can teach good habits and insist on certain behaviors, but you can't change a person's nature. Fact is, some people are actually comforted by a certain amount of disorderliness. There's a kind of 'nesting' quality to being surrounded by your own stuff, a familiarity, a deep comfort. It's like your favorite pair of old blue jeans... If someone were to iron and starch them, they'd feel wrong, not better, and you'd be ticked off, not grateful.

In my family, my husband and younger son are neatniks; my older son and I are not. My husband and younger son find comfort in order; my older son and I find comfort in 'cozy disarray'. My husband lines things up in neat little rows -- even plants in the garden! I adjust them into casual cluster-groupings. He'll ask me when I'm going to "clean that up", and I always have to ask him "Clean what up?" because I genuinely don't see the alleged 'mess'.

If your son vents to you, listen sympathetically but don't jump on the blame game. And if he asks you for advice, confine your advice to things he can do to change his own behavior or responses -- not ways to change his wife (because she's not broken). (He's the one feeling annoyed.) If he asks you for advice, ask him how he thinks his wife views things, and what would be the best outcome for his marriage...

Have to agree with asolo. Stay out of it, it's none of your business. I'm not the neatest housekeeper either. Our house is presentable and neat but hardly spotless...there are much more important things to do then cleaning imo. But if it matters that much to your son then it's his situation to fix with his wife, not yours. NancyLouise

Thank you for your comments.

I'm just listening and not blaming anyone. In fact, I've suggested that he just pick up in order to keep peace in the family.

"My DIL has a much more relaxed attitude about this and as a result their 11 year old daughter tends to be somewhat messy."
I only mentioned this because when she leaves something in the way, she says it's okay because her Mom does that.

I'm concerned my DIL is depressed and I don't know how to help her. (Maybe I shouldn't even try.)

you should stay out of it, it is their business.

if you want an opinion, I think your DS should not complain about picking up after his wife. She goes out to work, he stays home. If the roles were reversed , my opinion would still be the same. The one thing I dont agree with is that on the weekends your DIL doesnt stay home to help out and spend time with her kids.

My SIL is incredibly lazy and unaccomplished in absolutelly anything neither at home nor at workforce, i and my parents feel terrible for my brother. But all we do is vent to each other, well my dad and I. My mom yells at us when we do it. LOL, but never in a million year would we tell my brother and SIL how to run their household. so you could vent with your DH or other kids but do not say anything to your son or DIL.

Being messy is not a likely symptom of depression. Tiredness or exhaustion after a long day at the office, sure, a personality quirk, sure, but probably not depression.

What you're relating is seriously little crap that wouldn't take your son 10 minutes a week to do. He's the one who has a problem with it, so he should do it, pretty much regardless of work status. The fact that he doesn't work just adds to that. The DIL shouldn't have to do laundry or dishes at all- those are numbers 2 and 4 of the stay at home job description (first is kids, then laundry, then cooking, then dishes, then cleaning everything else).

As for the 11 year old, why does she think she has the same rights as Mom? The parents make the rules because they pay the bills, and what they say goes. When kiddo can pay rent, then she can leave her stuff everywhere.

I thought more about it and am wondering why folding laundry is a shared task?

Your DS stays home and should be folding all laundry. I think he is somewhat passive aggressive if he allows laundry to stay in the living room for 17 days and does nothing about it. She promised, so what, she works. Now is he playing some game by letting laundry sitting there? I understand he takes care of a child, but 3-year-old is not a newborn baby and your son has time to do house chores. 11-year-old is at school.

I wonder if a true problem is not messy house but something else? Otherwise he would not let sheets sitting there for 17 days just to prove his point.

I wonder if a true problem is not messy house but something else?

My thoughts exactly.

As for her continual absence on Saturdays, I don't think that's a positive thing for their family at all. OTOH, it may be that DS is "quietly (or maybe not so quietly) stewing", and it's hard for her to be around him? I had a BIL like that.

I don't know. All of this is sheer conjecture, based on what you've told us.

This is the one thing I would suggest: IF your DS complains to you about it, suggest that he see a marriage counselor -- either alone or with her. It may actually help more if he goes alone first and deals with his own stuff, then asks her to go.

If your DS does not complain to you, don't say anything -- even if you have to bite your tongue, walk into another room, etc.

I agree my DS shouldn't have let the sheets stay on the table and I told him so. He put them away yesterday. Folding bedding was something they agreed to do together because the sheets are Oversized King and she liked them folded in a particular way where it was easier if 2 people did it together.

Please understand that he has no problems with running the household,taking care of the baby, taking his daughter to school and picking her up, doing the yardwork, etc. He also makes breakfast for the kids while DIL sleeps and he makes his wife's lunch as well.

What he's upset about is the fact that there seems to be a continual accumulation of stuff just everywhere. For example, if a purse is emptied of receipts, tissues, gum wrappers...he thinks those trash items could be placed in the waste can rather than left on a kitchen counter or kitchen table. I agree with him on that issue.

Personally, I would be very upset if my working husband came home and left his dirty clothes on the closet floor or on the bathroom floor rather than placing them in the clothes hamper 3' away. I'd feel he was treating me as a maid rather than as a partner. But maybe ya'll don't agree with me.

Would you feel differently about his complaints if I told you that 4 years ago when they were both working full time with an 7 year old daughter he still did most of the household chores because she was "always going to do it" and somehow never did?

The thing is that she was this way when they were dating and he thought he could change her. Now he realizes he likely can't do that.

I have suggested that he see a marriage counselor and try to get DIL to go with him. I'm afraid if these issues are not addressed this problem could lead to marriage failure.

I'm praying they can work this out. I think both of them have to change and make compromises if they want to be happy together. Being stubborn can make a relationship go sour and then no one wins and no one is "right".

You know how typical this problem would be if you simply reversed the DS and DIL?
And maybe that's part of the problem...

I wonder if DIL isn't feeling a little financial pressure and possibly resenting the fact that DS is the stay-at-home parent? And that he's not doing *everything* like the old-fashioned stay-at-home wife used to do? And because she's feeling pressured and resentful (and possibly passive-aggressive?) she's stretching the clean-up role to dropped clothes on the floor and gum wrappers on the counter -- which anyone would agree are not reasonable.

Either a good honest conversation at home, or one in a counselor's office is called for.

Whatever happens, you need to stay out of it even if you agree with ds. I would remain noncommittal about it to him too, let him figure out what to do becuase he needs to work out whatever is causing all the issues and she needs to know that you don't automatically take his side.

You know how typical this problem would be if you simply reversed the DS and DIL?

This struck me from the very first post, but I forgot to mention it.

Whatever happens, you need to stay out of it even if you agree with ds. I would remain noncommittal about it to him too, let him figure out what to do becuase he needs to work out whatever is causing all the issues and she needs to know that you don't automatically take his side.

ITA. I think "noncommittal" is the perfect attitude to have. My MIL was like this when she was alive (I still miss that dear lady every day). Neither DH nor I ever felt she was for or against either one of us, but that she was for both of us, even when one of us was not behaving as we should.

OP, I can see why this is so hard for you; I have two grown, married sons myself. Often, our "mama bear" instinct kicks in and we want to rush in to defend our cubs. But when they're grown, they're not cubs anymore.

When I suggested you bite your tongue, leave the room if need be, I was speaking from personal experience. I know how hard it is. One thing I've learned in life is that the right thing to do is usually the hardest thing to do.

Actually, in spite of him being upset about the fact that she's not a "pick up after herself" person, I've told him he's making it worse by being stubborn. I am not siding with my son. I see his flaws and I feel sorry for my DIL. I think they both need to give a little and just talk without having it escalate into an arguement.

It bothers me that she doesn't want to spend time with the kids. I would think that she'd want to share their daily activities with them and just be near them. She has never been the hands on kind of Mom but now it's as though the kids are a bother. The 11 yr old is my son's step daughter and she was 2 years old when he and DIL met.

From the beginning, to outward appearances it seemed he was the father and DIL was the "date". If we went out to eat he was the one that sat next to her and made sure she ordered something she liked. He cut her food and got her to eat. He was the one that read to the little girl. Much of the parenting was left to him and know it's worse than ever.

It's not all my DIL's fault, but it's not all my son's fault either.

mona, I'd have a big problem with my husband coming home from work and simply dropping his clothes on the floor, whether he was waiting for me to pick them up or not. That's simply slovenly and disrespectful to anyone else that has to share the room.

Your son sounds somewhat like my brother, but on top of everything my brother also works full time... sigh....

But that's who he chose to marry, my SIl was this way when they first met and she is the same way now 21 years later. people don't change...she did not change a bit.

At least your DIl is a professional, my SIl is not even that...(she got her first job in her life at 43 two years ago, and it is a part time menial work).

My brother holds demanding executive position in a large company yet he the one takes care of their two children, house, bills and everything else. He has no life.

It makes us sad to watch it, but nothing we can do, that is his choice. He tried to change her, but to no avail.

he told my mom that he gave up and just let it be the way it is. He is not happy how things are but he gave up on changing anything. And he'll never divorce her. he does not believe in divorce.

Believe me your DIl is not even half bad as my SIL.

so your son should do what he thinks right, nothing you could do..I feel for you though...I understand how you feel.

finedreams, I feel sorry for your brother. He doesn't have much of a life, does he?

yeap, mona. Sorry I don't mean to hijack your thread.

his wife is not a bad person, she is not mean or cheating or abusing anyone, so it could be worse. but she does not even know how to write a check or how to use Internet. my brother tried to teach her but she is not interested so he gave up.

she cannot keep up with anything. my brother started having difficulty keeping up with bills because their son started college, so he asked SIL to start working, she was just staying home even though there is no one at home to take care off, kids were at school.

she could not find any job, or rather never looked, she asked me for help finding job, I gave her a lot of tips how to get a job in retail or anything else(she has no training in anything and no education), but she never followed through and now cleans some rich people's house part time.

she used to do very little at home and now she does even less because she is tired from work...now nobody asks her for anything. Even 8-year-old figured it out and waits for dad to get home to help with a homework. It is ridiculous.

I can type a novel here of things that happened over the years. but it is what it is...we keep quiet.

"From the beginning, to outward appearances it seemed he was the father and DIL was the "date". If we went out to eat he was the one that sat next to her and made sure she ordered something she liked. He cut her food and got her to eat. He was the one that read to the little girl."

The words 'to outward appearances' are very important, because what happens in front of others is not always what happens when no one else is looking. With my Ex, when older DS was a baby, Dad did absolutely nothing in terms of parenting at home. No diapers, no baths, no bedtime stories. I remember asking him to hold the baby so I could get a shower -- but no -- he was 'too busy' watching a baseball game on TV. But once we left the house, or if people came over -- THEN you never saw such an involved father! I could barely get my hands on the baby then -- and I'm sure it looked like I was a very uninvolved mother.

I'm not suggesting this is how things work in your son's home -- just that the behaviors you see and that he tells you about may not actually reflect what happens when no one is looking.

sweeby, this was/is happening at home as well. As our GD has gotten older she knows it's Dad that will follow through and complete things and that's who she goes to when she needs anything. And she's very open about saying so.

Lately, she's even been picking up after her Mom and gets annoyed when stuff is left everywhere. This is because GD gets embarrassed when she has friends over on weekends and the house looks messy. She sees her friends' homes looking neat and tidy and wants hers to look that way, too.

My DIL seems to behave much like your EX. Did he ever change?

"My DIL seems to behave much like your EX. Did he ever change?"

How much have you read about my Ex? He had (has) deep issues (diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder), and nothing you've posted so far here is nearly that disturbing. He certainly hasn't changed, but hopefully, that may have nothing to do with your DIL...

I don't know anything about your EX other than what you posted above. You said he wouldn't do any parenting unless he was in the presence of others.

Your EX sounds like a real prize!!

mona how is your DIL is like sweeby's ex? her ex is/was pretty crazy and has NPD, your DIL does not sound anything like that. why do you compare them?

I was just comparing them based on the fact that sweeby's Ex didn't do any everyday parenting... no baths, no changing diapers, no bedtimes stories, no outside playtime with the kids.

I think she's depressed but I can't suggest she seek help.

that's a shame, mona.

I remember visiting my brother once when their son was a baby, and SIL was laying on a couch and calling my brother in a whiny voice: baby boy made a poopoo, he needs to be changed. My brother just got home from work, put dinner on a stove and started laundry, she was laying on a couch and baby next to her. We still have as a joke at home, when one person does not want to do anything we say in a whiney voice: baby made poopoo, come change the baby. LOL

I think the biggest and most harmful problem these two have is a meddling MIL. Why does your son run home to Mommy with all his complaints. Can't he be the man of the house and speak up for himself. No way is it your business to determine if she's depressed or lazy or whatever. I'm sure I'd be depressed also if I had a MIL like you and a husband that couldn't stop running to mommy about everything. Mind your business

simpleme, this is the 4th thread where you have come out of nowhere to personally attack me. Do you have a personal problem with me? or are you just a nasty person by nature?

Why don't you follow your own advice and mind your own business? If you can't give advice without being nice about it, then just don't post.

You sound like a person with a chip on her/his shoulder. Perhaps counseling would benefit you. Have you considered seeking help for your negative attitude?

I'm sorry you're an unhappy person. You sound like somebody who (if you have any friends at all) would never be the person someone would come to for advice. How sad and empty your life must be.

Simpleme, you posted this in Dec, 2008. And you wonder why your family doesn't want to spend more time with you?

In your opinion I'm a critical MIL, but it's okay to refer to your DIL as "his dear wife" with sarcasm dripping from your lips? That poor girl has a prize for a MIL, doesn't she?

You wrote:
"I'm one of those mom's that every year are told "we'll need to rush off as soon as we eat so and so has hockey practice,and we'll be a bit late as so and so must drop off a gift to her friend. So it looks like we'll be there around noon but will have to leave by 3.....okay.......I'll make the adjustments with the dinner for 14 that I'll be cooking. Your brother is coming but as you know his dear wife can't sleep away from home with out the two little dogs so we'll adjust. I'm saving newspapers so I hope this time they use them.
And your other sister never worries that her life will be disrupted. she brings it along. wonder who and how many it will this year and where will I put them up when we determine who's sleeping with whom...
Oh and yes, an offer of a flight to be your guest would be okay. Except I'm mostly ignored while I'm there. You all are scurrying out the door to you various events. Sil and dgs will be gone, granddaughter off at work, I just won't fit in. so it's much more comfortable for this one "older" person to remain at home."

LOL mona, lol, these quote explain why simpleme is saying nasty things online, nobody wants to spend time with her in real life haha

hilarious isn't it?

I think you have me confused with someone else. First of all I've never post such a message. you see I don't happen to be a "mom". Not possible. Never posted that so you'll have to come up with more proof that I've ever replied to 4 of your posts. Don't flatter yourself. I stand by my response. You need to back off and let baby boy grow his own.

I don't think the confusion lies with me. You must have forgotten about this post,but the MY PAGE info for this person matches your MY PAGE info and the names are the same. It was part of a PARENTING thread. Does it ring a bell now?

Posted by simpleme (My Page) on Sun, Dec 21, 08 at 4:34

yes, it must be a great relief that one side of the family has been eliminated from the hassle.
When did it become such a disruption to share your family with your parents during the holidays...? how sad that all I see in your post are words like 'disrupt', get over it, guilt.
I'm one of those mom's that every year are told "we'll need to rush off as soon as we eat so and so has hockey practice,and we'll be a bit late as so and so must drop off a gift to her friend. So it looks like we'll be there around noon but will have to leave by 3.....okay.......I'll make the adjustments with the dinner for 14 that I'll be cooking. Your brother is coming but as you know his dear wife can't sleep away from home with out the two little dogs so we'll adjust. I'm saving newspapers so I hope this time they use them.
And your other sister never worries that her life will be disrupted. she brings it along. wonder who and how many it will this year and where will I put them up when we determine who's sleeping with whom...
Oh and yes, an offer of a flight to be your guest would be okay. Except I'm mostly ignored while I'm there. You all are scurrying out the door to you various events. Sil and dgs will be gone, granddaughter off at work, I just won't fit in. so it's much more comfortable for this one "older" person to remain at home.
maybe next year for surely one the following years you holidays will become hassle free and you'll be able to enjoy yours without the guilt. Until then follow your own advice and just get over it....I'm sure you're Mom will long before you think she has...

Simpleme,
This is my last response to you; I never wanted to fight with you but I found your comments harsh and unwarranted and I just couldn't let them go.

Interestingly, you say you've never been a mom. I guess you forgot the part about being a stay at homemaker for forty years while raising your children?
-----------------------------------------------------

RE: My spouse is retired...

Posted by simpleme (My Page) on Sat, Apr 19, 08 at 1:37

I'm amazed that my name is not signed to the post from Holly.
my husband retired just 3 years ago and I feel like my life as I knew it has been swallowed up. I was a stay at homemaker for 40 years while raising our children. I had many hobbies, friends, and social meetings with friends, mostly related to school events.
The day after retirement, he spoke to me about how the towels could be folded better to fit on the linen closet shelves neater. I have not folded a towel in 3 years. Don't expect to the rest of my life.

He "joins" me in the kitchen to chat while I cook. He was not invited. I do not do cooking demos. I've kicked him out.

We have three rooms in our home with tv.s, at any given moment all three are on different news channels, politics or sports.

All the little things that were annoying before retirement are now big irratiations.

Don't get me wrong, I love this man with my last breath.
I just don't remember the part in the wedding vows that said
we'd be joined at the hip 24/7 during our goiden years.

whew, thanks for letting me vent....

well how nice, denying having children...

OP, IIRC (I haven't gone back and re-read everything), didn't you say your DIL was reared in a messy home with a mom who didn't bother to clean well? If that is true, didn't your DS realize she would most likely follow that pattern? I'm not defending the behavior, just noting the pattern of her growing-up years (assuming memory serves).

mara, you're right and I'm sure that's part of the problem. I've reminded him of that and have suggested that there needs to be compromise on both sides if there is to be less stress in the home.
IMHO I think she needs to pick up after herself and he needs to be more flexible in his expectations. But it's for them to work out.

simpleme, I got your email.

Sorry for making this response public; I tried to email a reply but your email address doesn't seem to be a valid one.

Send me a working email address and we can "talk".

It's a sad truth but many people marry with the idea that they can change their spouse after marriage. The trouble is that people are usually on their best behavior BEFORE the marriage and things that bother you then will only be potentially worse after the knot is tied. It's a hard lesson but I'm guessing it's one your son has learned.

You can't change someone else's behavior, only your own. Your son cannot change his wife. If she WANTS to change, then maybe she can, but that's a big if. Counseling can help but it's basically going to result in one of these things:

1. wife REALLY will want to change and will make the effort with the result being SOME improvement (she changes)
2. husband will realize the wife will never change and accepts it (he changes)
3. husband will realize the wife will never change, won't be able to accept it and the couple will split (neither change and neither can accept that the other one won't change)

I once had an acquaintance whose marriage broke up because she felt she was doing all the work (she was a SAHM) with her husband not lifting a finger. So, similar to your son's situation but with the roles reversed. She held it in for YEARS. Played the dutiful wife while swallowing her anger and frustration. By the time they sought counseling, it was too late. He made an effort to change (although I'm not sure how much of an effort) but she didn't care, she wanted out.

This was her version of the story and I know very little of the details except that she started to see this behavior before they were married and (I think) she thought it would not be as big a deal as it turned out to be.

With or without counseling, one of the three things I noted above is going to happen. Without counseling, it's probably NOT going to be #1. But even with, the chances of it being #1 are slim. Your son probably needs some individual counseling to come to terms with that. He has to come to the realization that there is only one person whose behavior HE can change or control: his own. Once he really understands that, then he'll have to decide whether it's worth staying with her as she is, or not.

Update.

DIL called me and asked if I'd come over and be there while they had an open and frank discussion. Seems she trusts me to actually hear what's being said rather than interpreting words to suit one side or the other.

Agauist my better judgement I went to their home.

Surprisingly, it went well.

After all was said and done she admits she could take and extra 5 minutes to put clothes in the hamper rather than just dropping them on the floor. And she's been doing that.
She also clears off the make-up vanity before work every day. This has done wonders for my son's attitude. He feels his housekeeping efforts are being validated. (Sounds like a housewife's complaint, doesn't it?)

He is folding the laundry and putting it away. However, he simply places the 11 yr old's laundry in her room, on a bench, where DD is expected to put it away.

And though other complaints are somewhat put to rest, the issue of DD's responsibities are now a source of conflict.

Rather than continue rehashing issues here, I'm going to start another thread to get your opinions. I'm doing this because both parents have asked me for advice and I'm favoring one side over the other.

good that things are working out and they are compromising.

I am very surprised that they ask you to be present though. I am close to my mother but would not get her involved in my own relationship issue.

My DD22 asks my advice in regards to her relationship but would not ask me to be involved or stand in the middle.

I am not saying it is wrong but it seems very strange to me that grown people want their mother and especially MIL that involved. I don't care if my daughter puts her clothes in a hamper or her partner does.

It is normal to have conflict over children's responsibility. I think I am confused why would they want you to be involved in their conflicts. I don't know...I would advice if they ask but I personally would stay out of it.

Mona, I am sorry for the disappoint felt. I will say, not picking up one's own dirty laundry and putting it in its right place or leaving dirty dishes is disrespectful. But it's just one opinion. Good luck to them both!

Mona,
So long as you continue to overfunction in this way, your grown children will continue to underfunction.

You rob them of an opportunity to grow.

It's nice to feel needed, isn't it. But sometimes the "help" we offer is actually stunting for them, frustrating for us.

Sometimes, it's okay to respond with, "wow. That must be hard for you. I trust that you have the skills to figure this out. I love you."

Interesting. I think you should step slowly away. While they may appreciate you now it may grow into resentment.

11 year old not putting away laundry yet? That is their parenting issue, not yours. I agree with Amy. Be gentle, don't get involved.

I'm glad it worked out, but would be very leery of making a habit out of it. (You said it yourself: "against my better judgement")

Though it probably helps that it was your DIL who called, and not your son, since 'blood' would suggest that it would be his side you'd favor.