I think the return air duct really throws a wrench into things and I have no idea how it can be addressed and/or re-routed...So I can't comment much on the kitchen layout.

I can say that I do think your mudroom will feel more like a closet, and your pantry will only have room for shelves along one side, so I'd try to combine the 2 for something more useful...maybe it can serve both functions somehow.

I don't think I'd do the cabinet to the left of the fridge (and I might swap fridge and microwave, but I'm not sure on that)...Anyway, that one cabinet makes the walk through too tight and it seems it would be nice to have the kitchen more open to the table area?

It seems like there is a lot of space not used that efficiently...behind the stools and in front of the dry bar... while other workspace is quite crowded. I'm at a loss right now as how to help...Especially, as I said until we know more about the air duct, which, I assume, must run from floor to ceiling.

I hope someone who is smarter or more creative chimes in soon!

Best wishes.

This is just a concept sketch for another orientation and positioning of a beam. Please note that the dining room to family room entrance is a little smaller and the windows over the cleanup sink have been changed with the window opening also made a little smaller and shifted to align with the bottom side of the existing opening.

You might not like anything else about it, but its got an island.

{{gwi:1633196}}

Thanks for the ideas; we had played around with removing that wall (post bmorepanic above) but didn't have a layout that functional. We don't really have a good feel for how complicated/expensive it is to remove the load-bearing masonry walls, which was what was driving us toward removing the other wall. Another point of clarification: the dining room (as it stands now) is an interior room with offices to the left of it; there is no natural light there, which makes it less than ideal for the kitchen.

Regarding the vent...it's actually the air intake that goes to the HVAC unit in the basement below. It does not go all the way up the wall; it currently stops at the top of a built-in hutch in the dining room (and I don't think that it needs to go all the way up).

Andy

My comments from a quick look over of the first plans:

Why not use the coat closet area as the "mud room". If you set up a nice cubby space over there, you could use the entire current mud room as part of the pantry space. As for the electrical panel, build a cubby to house the vacuum or brooms and put a door on it. That way you still have access to the panel without it showing.

I'm not in love with the cabinet sticking out beside the fridge. If there's not going to be wall behind that, it will be a hip bumper. I'd run into that daily! Although, it's a good idea to have a landing space next to the fridge, I'm not sure that small cabinet is going to help you much. It also looks like it might be in the way of a chair on that end of the table.

I'm assuming your drawing is not to scale because it looks like there is a ton of room between the table and the bar area, however, the measurements make it look like it's only maybe 5 feet or so? If it's a big gap, then you're going to have to schlepp the wine and bar glasses from the kitchen to that bar every time you use them. I might opt to put a small sink in that bar area just for bar cleanup.

That said, I'm not overly fond of the prep sink by the coffee area. I don't know if it would get that much use since there's not much counter space beside it. Less than 2 feet wouldn't be enough area for me to do anything for kitchen prep, except maybe to rinse off a tomato.

I like the existing lower cabinets behind the bar area. Is that a half wall or could you install upper cabinets as well? If so, I'd go with glass door cabinets there to hold your treasured dishes from your travels.

If the bar area and the existing cabinets are close to the same size, I would even consider switching the bar area with the display area and putting the prep sink in the bar area there. That way you have the display in the dining area and the bar closer to the seats at the kitchen counter. Much more functional, IMO.

Thanks, all. Wife of OP here. A few more thoughts:
- We don't have a closet on this floor except for the two shown at the back entry of the current existing floor plan. Setting aside the possible difference in cost, the idea of taking out the kitchen (masonry) wall instead of the dining room (interior) wall is appealing to me in terms of the shape of the resulting space (more squarish), but I need to think about how it would work to have the closet in where the bench seating area is noted in bmorepanic's design above so we're not tracking as much muck through the house.
- Similarly, after a week of weather in the 20s, I really wish we had a double-door type entry where we have a way of keeping the temperature of the house more steady especially as dogs and kid are in and out all day. That's a primary driver around the current mud-room idea.
- In terms of adding an island to the space - how does that work in terms of breaking up the "work triangle" if we located the main sink under the windows? Do folks get tired of going around an island to get to the sink? Or do you just get used to it?!?
- Should we be concerned about how the traffic will flow by these spaces? Especially if the main footpath through is in front of the sink?
- I'm not wedded to the idea of a pantry if we could do a big pull out pantry unit, either where the current closets are now or where the "pantry" is in the bmorepanic design.

Thanks again!

In your layout, I would swith the prep area w/ the clean-up area. I'd want the prep sink near the range, and near guests/kids sitting at the stools, and the clean-up sink/DW in the other area. I know that would make the clean-up area further away from the diningroom, but it won't be in the way of the range, etc.

I'll be following along to read more about the mudroom/closet situation.

Amanda

The island has a prep sink - the little rectangle with a pretend faucet. Some people prefer the sink on the end pointed toward the table for messy hands and home grown veg.

I wondered about what you were trying to do with the mudroom and also the other exit from the kitchen. Is it possible to do a glass entrance on the exterior. Maybe just three-four feet deep by 5 feet wide?

Is there anyway to get mudroom space from the family room?

Do you use the dining room today? Do you want a dining room? Could you use a library or kid study area or a home theater more? Or a pool table?

We're overrun by exterior doors. It's not shown on the original drawing we posted, but the prior owner was an architect who built a beautiful family room off the back of the house and put in 4 additional exterior doors there that are adjacent to the patio. That sounds bizarre, but it actually makes for a nice patio area that is between the family room and the breakfast area so it is more integrated space in nicer weather. I wouldn't want to add anything else to the exterior.

We think what is now the eating area (which currently has a small 4 person table) used to be some sort of porch and that's what those door openings lead to. I think the other exterior exit (adjacent to the door to the basement) might be original. We had thought of another mudroom/pantry idea that uses that space, but it's the least convenient door to the house to enter because it is outside of the gate that encloses the back of the house so entering with groceries would be a real pain.

I don't think we could get a mudroom out of the family room. It's a well-defined space with a cathedral ceiling.

We have been in this house since September and have used the dining room twice. But we'd like to do a bit more entertaining that we've been doing, so we would use one somewhat more often. If we took out the current dining room, we'd probably repurpose what is currently a formal living room which is the front room in the house (which currently has a rug, a random chair and my daughter's pup tent...!). I'll get my husband to post an updated existing floor plan so this makes more sense!

If we didn't build into the existing dining room as part of the kitchen redesign, I suppose we could use that space for something else like a library, but we already have built in full height book shelves leading into the family room and 2 offices on the side of the house, so I'm not sure we need that functionality.

It seems like the threshold question for us right now is whether we're going to go "whole hog" and start taking out some of the masonry walls, or whether we want to be more restrained in a big construction undertaking. This seems to lead to a choice of taking out the wall to the breakfast area or taking out the wall to the dining room. But we are really frustrated with the multiple chunks of unused space in our current layout and would really like to "do it right" so maybe that really means we should do both? If we did both, maybe we could reclaim some of the dead space that currently is between the dining and family rooms.

I'm just asking - there are a couple of other plans (in my head) for space that might work.

Are you adverse to a combination kitchen-formal dining like the barefoot contessa kitchen that is being featured in house beautiful?

Do you envision your guests using the family room when you entertain? Or is everybody just hanging around the kitchen? Where do guests enter the house?

Can I change the windows MORE on the electrical panel wall? How big the that thing and how much does it stick out?

Is there a view from the existing kitchen windows?

Can you post pictures from the dining room showing the family room entrance, from the dining room showing the living room entrance and in the kitchen showing door corner? Honestly, I don't know that they'll help a lot so don't go to a lot of trouble.

Sorry I wasn't able to post an additional drawing last night. Here's my best way to explain it and I'll try to post some pictures tonight.

The family room is pretty much a square in the space where you see it starting. To the right of it is the patio area. There are 4 glass/screen doors that are on the side adjacent to the patio.

The living room is a rectangle. Maybe 12x18. It has two smallish windows not currently shown on the diagram. The foyer area shown in the bottom right in a small space adjacent to stairs that lead to the upper floors.

There are arched doorways leading from the foyer into the living room and the living room into the dining room.

I'm not wild about the idea of the formal dining room open to the kitchen, but I haven't really given it much thought.

Most guests enter the house throught the front door - into the foyer. Some (mostly family) enter through the back door like we do. Eventually, I could see people hanging out in the kitchen, but right now, most of that is done in the family room.

The existing kitchen windows aren't at counter level (a few feet higher) so they add light but not a whole lot of view. The view is to the side of our neighbor's house anyway, so expanding the space would bring in more light but not much more! The two doors and window shown in the eating area each have full length glass, so that's where the light really comes in.

The electrical panel is recessed, so it doesn't really stick out - it just probably can't be moved.

Hopefully this picture will provide a bit more clarity. The exterior rooms aren't exactly to scale, but the kitchen and surrounding areas are all drawn to scale and labeled.

what are the measurements of the room w/ the ylw blocks in it?

I think I'd see about making that the kitchen. put the sink on the back wall in front of window (make door to left of window another window). stove on masonry wall etc.

make where you now have a kitchen laid out the breakfast area with a wall of cabinets for the dishes and maybe a window seat.

a mudroom really just needs a place to hang up coats (hooks work), a bench to sit on and put on /remove boots and a place for the boots/shoes to 'live' (under bench). and maybe some bins for gloves, hats (shelf over hooks?)

bmorepanic LO at 7:02 is nice also.

I think I'd try to get rid of a few exterior doors. like the 2 at the corner on the lower right.

I'm with huango 100%.

Put the prep sink in the penninsula. Put the cleanup and DW under the windows.

You will have a MUCH better work flow (fridge to prep to cook to serve to cleanup). And your mess can pile up over there well away from dining and visitors. And you can converse with others while you prep AND while you work at the cooktop. Sweet. (Way more time is spent on those tasks than at the clean up sink.)

Sketch of possible placements.
{{gwi:1633201}}

I like bmore's latest plan. The rooms make sense. My only misgiving is having the kitchen that open to the living room and have so little relation to the family room, but given the confines of your space, I think this is the best option.

Interesting idea. Do you think it would be dark in the kitchen area given the lack of any windows in there? [There's now way to add windows to the wall that the range is on.] Also, I'm not sure how we'd deal with the air intake that is in the current dining room wall.

What about flipping Bmore's plan North to South and having support posts that come down onto the island. You'll get a longer island that way too (I think), and direct access to the pantry.

That's a great idea, houseful. Fast sketch conversion.

{{gwi:1633204}}

In your house, some room has to be mainly using lighting.

I liked houseful's suggestion partly because it increased your view of some windows and the porch. You can get some more by using glass panels and doors in the mudroom.

It's the best orientation for the places your family uses and the spot where everyonegathers in your house - you get a little view into the family room and an ability to duck into it while cooking. You have good contact with family and guests when they're in the dining room and a good buffet station in the island.

Bonus - pantry is closer.

Only thing I'd do is shop around the zone/appliance placements - they could be better.

Thanks - this is a great idea too. I really like how it shifts the balance to the family room side of the house. When we put the specifics of our dimensions into the remaining dining room space, none of our current furniture really fits, so we'll have to noodle on that a bit more!!

In the meantime, we were thinking of another way to shift the balance by make it more of a galley space (thanks for the suggestion on the barefoot contessa design - this took us in a whole new direction since we realize that taking out the current dining room wall leaves us with a long and somewhat narrow space).

So what do folks think about this? Still too narrow? The idea is that the sink on the right would be more of a cleanup area and the sink on the left would be the prep/transition to cook area.

[You can see off the edge of the design, we're still thinking about where we could put pull out pantry space if we don't make a fully integrated mud room/pantry and a few other placeholder ideas!]

You need to have at least 32" from the counter edge to an obstacle in order for a person to be able to get into a stool. An overhang for bar height is at least 12" and is more comfortable at 15-20". A seated person takes up around 2 feet of space.

Dishwasher and range doors can hit each other. Possibly also the undercounter oven and the dw.

The island is 30"? It's a bit small for a cleanup area - imagine the water on the floor?

People walking by the island will quite possibly sweep stuff off of it because of narrow aisles. When you come in from the back door, you're kinda forced to walk by the entire island for most destinations.

Looking at dining in that corner with the bench seats... I'd suggest mocking that up a bit. The bench seat looks like 3 dining positions and traps the center person. I'm guessing you'll also have chairs. The part that bothers me a little is the interchange between the stools, the chairs and setting/clearing the table. It's a mighty big table. It might be a long way to the dishes and the dishwasher and maybe threaded through a forest of seating? Or will the short cut through the active cooking zone be too tempting?

Possibilites -
Maybe look at reversing the island. So the cleanup and dish storage was nearer to the left edge? You can use those existing cabinets to store the dishes. Move the micro there and kill snack traffic? Easy service bar for entertaining.

Kill the raised bar in favor of a 32" wide island top. Put a seat on the left edge by extending the counter. Possibly do a two position leaners bar right behind the sink (maybe one of those things cantilevered on metal legs - maybe solid and stop water overflows?).

Where you have "desk", if you move the second oven there and label it "baking center" in your head?

We had a kitchen designer come in today for several hours and we talked through a few of these options. One thing that looks pretty clear is that we're committed to having the range along the interior wall. There aren't really other options for venting to the outside unless we keep it on that wall in the original kitchen space.

So...another variation that combines part of our original and last plans. Is this better?

I do like the baking center idea. One thing I'd love to have is a pull up stand for my mixer. Is it critical to have a sink in that area?

That plan is better. Coupla things...

The table can't have seats in the aisle - it will crowd the aisle a bit too much. I'm playing a movie in my head of what would happen with a couple of friends over for dinner or doing a larger party and it's a bit of a choke point. The other thing about the table is I can't see myself sitting there and enjoying a cup of tea.

I'm guessing that you'll turn the living room into a space that has a larger table area. It might be worthwhile to also look at what happens if the living room becomes the kitchen.

Everyone who enters the mudroom door headed for the family room will walk or run through the kitchen proper. Plus it makes a great run around in circles spot for kids (foyer, kitchen, living room). Neither are things that are actually desirable (but not fatal either).

So if part of the kitchen is treated as extended foyer, maybe plot out what happens if the mudroom and that part of the kitchen is treated architecturally as extended foyer that runs from the front to the back of the house. It would take up all those doors and add a few more - so the route to the family room was open from foyer north and a route to the kitchen, contained a closet, bench, kid lockers and maybe a mail-room. It might do really interesting things to both spaces.

There's a reason why I stopped taking math when it became three-dimensional...I have no idea what you're saying about extending the foyer! :)

Understood about no other seats at the table - we'd be committing ourselves to a 4 person space there. Yes, we would turn the current living room into a dining room and put our big table (which extends to seat 14 and doesn't fit in our current space when extended anyway) in there.

Under the current plan, would it help if we added a side door out of the mudroom like you had in an earlier version? I think we'd still want the door into the kitchen too but maybe that helps with some of the traffic trouble?

Me again. I can't get this stuff out of my mind. I can only imagine how much worse it's going to get over the coming months...

Thinking again about bmorepanic's 1/6 suggestion that moves the kitchen into the current dining room entirely. I don't think we'd turn the current kitchen into the dining room, but maybe that could be a decent breakfast room since it already has a couple of windows for the light. But I still like my 1/8 version too. Any other thoughts out there?

Thanks!!

Hi...posting a further design that my wife has been working on. I think we're getting closer...

I like this. I keep hoping someone else will respond too-cause I think you'll make out better.

Unless its for display, the dish hutch is very far away from the dishes. 2nd oven or micro has poor access to ref. Turning a small corner (at range) doesn't work out too well in real life. It's kinda ok if you have nothing else to do, but you end up with some low class counter space - corners are hard to use for prep - its deep enough to be a bit hard to clean - you might not be able to reach uppers that are behind it. You get zero gain of cabinetry.

This is a couple of alternatives BUT yours and mine suffer from the same disease of encouraging people to walk through the cooking zone.
{{gwi:1633218}}

Thanks! A few quick responses. Dish hutch is for display dishes. In our current dining room, I have almost a full wall that has one side with open display shelves at the top and closed cabinets and the bottom and the other side closed on top and bottom. Strangely, I'm losing a lot of that type of storage space in any new redesign, so I'm trying to maintain part of that.

Moving the range to the middle of that wall is going to add to the venting problem since the joists run N/S (assuming the top of the diagram is N) and there's no option to vent to the N because of vaulted ceilings in the LR. So if we don't want to vent to the front of the house (S), then we want to limit how much we're trying to cut sideways through all of the joists above.

I was thinking that my prep space would be to the right of the prep sink. Given that more kitchen time would be spent prepping, I wanted to be facing into the family room where the gathering is most likely to happen.

I see the point about the microwave. Maybe I could move that in front of the fridge but still in the island?

You're moving the island more to the right (which I like) but that definitely seems like it would push traffic to the left. Which is better??

Anyone else out there??

Any other design gurus out there who could take a look at this thread? We're meeting with our second KD tomorrow and would appreciate any thoughts on these possible layouts.

Thanks!

All of the dishes should be near the table areas - in your case that's on the right as drawn. So kiddo's can set/clear the table(s) while the meal is being prepared. So a person can be doing the dishes while another person cooks.

It's nice if the ref is near the table space, but I wouldn't put in the path of walkways (dining room, foyer) and where my everyday table space was. I can tell you sad tales of having the ref in that orientation between the cleanup area and something I would have much rather seen.

The ref, the microwave and kiddo's have a relationship. Sometime a spouse also has a microwave dependency. Those family members are hunting a microwave suitable plate or cup, the refrigerator, a bag of popcorn, a sink and the microwave. Sometimes, kiddo's help prepare a meal by microwaving something.

I'm afraid that because the other path of ref-clean up sink- range is closer and easier, that it will be the place that gets used and you won't end up facing the family room.
I'm afraid that you won't have the views you want to have.

So I'm afraid that it's not the best resolution of this space - yet :)

I made the island longer to accommodate a clean up sink.

There's no way for a duct to go up? Does the other location work because its single story there?

What if I made the new design more of a U - so no island, but a peninsula and put the fridge where the 3'6" opening is right now on your design - does that just crowd it in too much? Something like flipping the original design we posted over the vertical axis?

Current range (micro) hood apparently vents to nowhere... We don't want to replicate that feature!

I will throw out a couple of thoughts, but am certainly no expert -- someone else will hopefully chime in.

Can you move the frig to the end of that run, giving yourself a longer stretch of counter between frig and sink? Slide sink toward sink toward frig moving away from your range? Maybe micro drawer between frig and sink?

Not sure what is going on on either side of the range, but can you create a straight stretch of counter to the right of it that dies into the wall there, giving you more prep area?

I like your banquette and dish hutch. The pantry does seem awfully far from the table and prep space.

Hopefully, someone else will see this and help -- I have been following some of this thread and hope you are able to create a workable solution.

Wow! A lot has gone on in this thread!

Coming in late...some questions/clarification requests...(Sorry if some were already asked/answered. I tried to go through all the posts, but there was a lot and I could have missed some!) Joists run N/S but you cannot go north b/c of the vaulted FR ceiling and you cannot go south b/c that's the front of the house. So, are you planning to vent out through the office on the west side? OR Are you willing to vent out the east side wall if it's not too far away from that wall?
Venting again...you can vent out the roof if there's a clear shot up through the second floor or if you can build a chase in some room above. I think the roof would be a straighter shot and may actually be more efficient and quieter.
Do you need both offices? Are there windows in the office directly adjacent to the current DR (future Kitchen)?
Views...do you want to face the FR while prepping? Some layouts have that view, some do not. [BTW...70% of your time working in the Kitchen is spent prepping, so if you want to face the FR while working in the Kitchen, it makes sense to have the Prep Zone face the FR. However, if that isn't an issue, then it doesn't matter.]
Regarding the pantry in the first layout, RHome410 is right, 46" isn't wide enough to have shelves on both sides. Our basement pantry is 57" wide and it's just barely wide enough to have room for 12" shelves on each side + standing room inside the pantry. (My Basement Pantry, including design)
What appliance sizes? I think I see...
...* 42" refrigerator (built-in or CD?)
...* 24" DW
...* 29" sink base for main sink???
...* 30" double ovens
...* 42" range/cooktop???? OR, is it 36" range/cooktop + 42" hood??? (If 42" range/cooktop, will hood be 48"?)
...* Approx 24" MW
FWIW...I really like Bmorepanic's first design, but I understand your reluctance to tackle the entire length of that masonry wall.

I will probably have more questions later, but let me see what I can do with it.

Oh, and your comment on the other thread about also having an 11' wide kitchen, I'm assuming you mean the current kitchen space.

So, the overall dimensions of current DR + current Kitchen are:
352" (29'4") wide (east/west)
134" (11'2") deep (north/south)

Current eating/table area is 94" (7'10") deep

The LR below is 18' wide by 12' deep

Correct?

How wide/deep is the masonry wall that you plan to remove part of? (5"? 6"? other?)

Lastly, to verify: You want a Kitchen w/island or peninsula seating, at least 3 seats
You want table seating in the Kitchen area [i.e., you will have three seating areas...Island/Peninsula, Kitchen Table, DR Table...correct?]
You want a separate Mudroom with closet, bench, and, optionally, cubby space
You want a walk-in or step-in pantry
You don't want to open up the wall b/w the current LR (new DR) and Kitchen
You do want to open up the wall b/w the FR and the Kitchen
No exterior doors or windows can be moved/changed
Not mentioned, but implied: You would like other closet space, maybe close to the front door?

Did I miss anything? :-)

Have you considered taking approx 2' off the length/width of the current LR/new DR to put in closets facing the Foyer and flanking the LR/DR entrance from the Foyer?

That would allow you two approx 48" x 24" deep reach-in closets (take maybe 4" or so out of Foyer as well). One could be reserved for guests and the other contain the family's "good" coats. "Play" or "casual" coats could be in the Mudroom on hooks or in a closet.

I tried to email you, but you don't have email turned on in your profile...so, I hope you see this!

Thanks so much for all of the follow up questions. Here are a few answers:

* 42' refrigerator (built-in or CD?) - actually we are probably planning for 48' CD
...* 24' DW - yes
...* 29' sink base for main sink??? - 30'
...* 30' double ovens - I think...
...* 42' range/cooktop???? OR, is it 36' range/cooktop + 42' hood??? (If 42' range/cooktop, will hood be 48'?) - 36' range + 42' hood
...* Approx 24' MW - haven't given it a whole lot of thought yet...

# You want a Kitchen w/island or peninsula seating, at least 3 seats

Yes - that's near the top of our 'wants'.

# You want table seating in the Kitchen area [i.e., you will have three seating areas...Island/Peninsula, Kitchen Table, DR Table...correct?]

Correct.

# You want a separate Mudroom with closet, bench, and, optionally, cubby space

Yes.

# You want a walk-in or step-in pantry

Nice to have, but not critical if I had space for pull out pantry shelves like I had in our old house with a small but very efficient kitchen.

# You don't want to open up the wall b/w the current LR (new DR) and Kitchen

Correct.

# You do want to open up the wall b/w the FR and the Kitchen.

Yes. We're still kind of stuck with the old breezeway that is now covered and is the strange space between the current kit/DR and FR, so a design that lets us use more of that space would make the flow better.

# No exterior doors or windows can be moved/changed.

Ideally not, though I'm starting to get the 'in for a penny, in for a pound' feeling about this whole thing....

# Not mentioned, but implied: You would like other closet space, maybe close to the front door?

Saw your second post. Not necessarily. There are mirrors with hooks that are in the foyer right where you walk into the LR (new DR) where guests could hang coats. We're much more wedded to the mudroom idea.

On venting, we had 2 contractors come out this week and they think they can vent down to the basement and then out the side of the house with less trouble than going up. There are 2 finished stories up (and we *really* don't want to have to do any renovations on the upper stories).

Yes, we want to keep both offices and don't want to fool with those walls (also masonry/loadbearing).

Yes, I would ideally like to face the FR while prepping. Another alternative would be to face the eat-in part of kitchen.

Here is another plan we're having contractors and a KD think about right now which keeps the main masonry wall between the current kitchen and DR and does more of an L-shaped design [Sorry the size is all crazy - DH is traveling and I haven't quite figured out the sizing thing with our design program].

We're also looking at a variation of the last design we posted but moving the appliances around a little.

THANKS!!

Here is a link that might be useful:

OK...it will take me awhile to work on this, but I did want to mention that with the latest layout there will be a lot of running around the wall to get to/from the FR. If it were me, I'd rather have it open more to the FR. But, let me see what I can come up with.

I understand the "in for a penny, in for a pound" feeling! We felt the same way and ended up doing more than we had thought we would also! It just seemed like a waste to spend all that $$$ and end up with something that was only a little better than before. We realized we weren't going to be doing this again, so we wanted to get it right the first time! That's also why we took a lot longer in the planing stage than we had originally planned (from a month to 7 months!) So, don't rush the planning, take your time at this stage b/c it's "cheaper" to fix issues on paper than in your kitchen later! If you need another 4 or 5 months or so (or longer), then take it! (That extra time gives you time to save more $$, as well.)

We have kids' basketball games today, so I will only be working on it intermittently...but I should have something by the tonight, tomorrow at the latest.

OK...here's one...it's actually quite similar to your first. The only problem is, I forgot about the air return duct that I think you said goes up the wall b/w the current DR & Kitchen, so I'll have to go back & rework it. Plus, I have another idea, I just haven't had time to flush it out. But, I didn't want you to think I forgot about you...so here's my first stab.

Can we assume that the range location is no longer an issue since you're going vent into the basement & out?

Thanks. One quick question - where did the door to the office and powder room go that is currently in the upper lefthand corner (the 3' opening on the other side of our existing dining room)? Looks to be hidden by your new pantry? I don't think that can be moved at all. That's a door I really don't want to pay to move and I don't want people to walk through the office to get to the powder room if it gets blocked off.

I think we can figure out a solution to the air return if there is anything in the center of the room that can hide it (island, peninsula, etc). It's just air intake.

Yes, I think we can work around the range, though the worst location for it would be in the middle of the space so there would have to be more extensions to get it to the outside.

We thought we'd check back in with our latest thought and see what the reactions are. We've met with a couple of KDs, but have not yet gotten anything back from them, so at this point this design is all us with the help of you all and input from our families.

We're still struggling with the pantry/food storage question; we don't love this current version but I think it's getting better.

We have also talked about curving the top of the island where the stools are, but have not yet drawn that or made up our mind.

Just tonight we started mulling over the idea of a 48" range to get the two ovens and not have the double wall stack in the upper left, but we're still not sure about that either.

As always, thanks for any ideas that you may have.

Andy

I would turn the table 90o to prevent conflict with the basement & foyer doors.

The trash is far away from the Cooking Zone and not all that convenient to the Prep Zone if someone is at the main sink.

An open DW door will be in the way of anyone working at the prep sink or range. I would be afraid of backing/bumping into it w/a full pot of boiling water, etc.

I would switch the DW & trash. That would solve both of the above issues.

An open DW door is also in the way of the path to/from the refrigerator & range. However, I don't think anything can be done about it with this sink/range/refrigerator configuration since it will be in the way regardless of the side of the sink it's on. However, I would prefer to have the DW over by the refrigerator..then I would consider it an acceptable compromise. (My open DW door is b/w the ovens & everything else, but the ovens aren't used nearly as much as the prep area and when I am baking/roasting, I don't check it as often as when I'm cooking on the cooktop.)

It's nice to see the WD near the range, but I think it will pretty low to the ground if it's under a double oven. I would want it higher off the ground for ease of use...at a similar height as either the top or middle drawer in a 3-drawer base cabinet.

Is the seating overhang at least 15"? You have a lot of empty space behind the seats so you should have no issues with at least the recommended seating overhang. Actually, if I were in your position, I'd probably do an 18" overhang since I find that even w/a 15" overhang it's not enough when I sit on the edge of the stool (a quirk of mine that I often sit on the edge...actually, I think it's b/c my feet are flat on the floor when I sit on the edge, more comfortable than having them perched on the wood supports on the stool).

You only have a 37" aisle b/w the wall & island, but I think that will be OK b/c no appliances open into the aisle other than the ovens in the corner...and the aisle is actually 46" at that point. After all, many interior doorways are only 32" or so. Actually, with the exception of the table/doorways aisle, I think you have good aisle widths. You see, taking down most of that wall makes a huge difference in what you can do with your kitchen. In effect, you've made it much wider!

Since you have a prep sink in the island for prepping, I even think the Appliance Garage will be OK. You'll still have at least 24" of work space to the left of the range. It looks like 18" on the right, is that correct? If that's a 33" cabinet for your 30" ovens, consider making it 31" or so to gain a couple more inches there. I like to see at least 24" of workspace on each side of the range.

If you decide to go w/the 48" range, then you could have a 30" drawer base on one side of it for a 30" warming drawer at a better height.

I like the Mudroom.

You're concerned about pantry storage. I can see why. You seem to have pantry storage scattered around the kitchen, will you be OK with that? Do you think you'll have an issue knowing where you stored what? I wouldn't want to have to check each pantry when looking for ingredients. But, if you can assign certain things for each pantry (e.g., baking supplies in one) and you and your family are disciplined enough to stick to it (I probably wouldn't, I admit it!), you will probably be OK...but be honest about yourself & your family!

BTW...here was a rework of my layout w/the door to the office & PR...

Here was another idea I was toying with....

Would you be willing to move the FR doorway on top a foot or two to the right? It's not centered right now...

Maybe something like this...extend the 4'7" bookcase & eliminate the 3'9" (or shrink it to maybe 1/2 the size of the new one... It also has an alternate Mudroom, but I like yours better!

Here were a couple of others I've been working on...however, the post or wall stub are an issue in both...(circled in red). I hadn't yet worked through them, if they can even be worked through! They have an alternate shape for the corner pantry (first) and a larger pantry in an entirely different location (second).

This first one entails opening up the corner of the DR and Foyer. I was thinking of an arched entrance into the DR from this diagonal corner. (The white is where the walls/door came down.) I know you said you have a mirror in the Foyer there right now, but this might add some interest in the Foyer. It also allows you to have a "real" table in that portion of the kitchen. You could probably "drop" the table a foot or so lower and put in a line of 12" deep, 8'6" pantry shelves/cabinets. But, that would split your pantry storage again. (Or, you could eliminate the corner pantry, put in your dry bar, and just have the 8'6" shallow pantry.)