clearance for door swing

Just as mavmomma said, clearance for door swings requires filler sometimes. We have custom full overlay doors and needed filler in two areas. One filler was used between a pantry door and a corner of the wall so that the pantry door could open fully. Another filler was used in a different corner, near a super susan, so the door to the super susan could open fully. Hope that helps!

OK That makes sense. Thanks guys!

a 3" filler piece between two upper cabinets?? I REALLY don't see the need for that. I have framless custom cabinets and the only filler he had to use was a 1" wide strip at the beginning and end where both ends butted against walls. I have another piece of filler that was necessary because I wanted crown and my cabinets were different heights. The filler was needed to give the crown a place to end. For just regular cabinets, filler should not be needed between the cabinets, especially not a 3" wide strip of it. Has he explained why it's needed?

I really don't see how something can be considered "custom" if they are using standard sized boxes and not making them to fit your kitchen. Why not see how much it would cost to get just that one cabinet made 3" wider? You don't need the whole run to be special made, just that one box.

I think I'd be asking a lot of questions if I were you. If your contract says custom, then he should not be charging you more if you want what the contract is supposed to be giving you to start with! Is it too late to change contractors?

If a custom cabinetmaker needed room for a door swing or whatever, they would build the faceframe wider than necessary, and presto! pre-attached filler strip, with no added seams. The cabinet box could also then be full size, but the door itself would be smaller by the needed amount.
So, what they did makes no sense and it's not custom.
Casey

I feel so abused as a customer.

There is filler in other places, too.

Around my Wood-Mode pull out pantry units, there is 2 inch filler on both sides, so that is a total of 4 inches of filler. Additionally, the pantry units were supposed to fill the whole footprint of the wall where my old pantry units were. Instead, they are at least 3 inches away from the back wall of the service porch. There is a hollow sound when I tap the thin and flimsy back wall of the pantry units.

The broom closet unit on another wall is too short for brooms by several inches.

There is another 2 3/4 inch filler on that wall PLUS the unit was fully SIX INCHES short in wall length of where the old cabinet footprint was - - we had ordered cabinets to fit the existing footprint. So, we were shorted nearly NINE inches of cabinetry on that wall.

The plans we were shown did not filler and shortened cabinets, but they were sketchy.

The uppers in the kitchen, again, had filler and were not the size that the plans showed. They ended up odd sizes instead of cabinets of the same size.

When we've asked about all of this, we were just told that these measures were done to "save us money."

Again, our contract was for Wood-Mode custom cabinets. Exactly that.

Our designer had other surprises for us, too. I'll share that later in other posts.

"...The pricing was definitely full price Wood-Mode...."

I'm sorry, but it sounds like your KD is charging you for Custom but giving you stock...even semi-custom shouldn't need all that filler or short you that much cabinetry.

You really should have had a final design w/all details specified b/f you ordered & paid. Since you didn't you may not have any recourse.

Is this an independent cabinet store? Can you talk to the manager or, better yet, the owner? Tell them your story...it may not be the first time this KD has done this & you may be believed...but no guarantees (or even any guarantee that the manager/owner isn't in on it as well).

I would at least try...

This is a husband and wife operation.

They are owner-builder-designer but they are approved to deal in Wood-Mode.

Now we can see that they were somewhat secretive about the details.

Drawings were missing key measurements we can see in retrospect and lots of false reassurance was given.

That is exactly what we are thinking. Stock cabinets were used but we were charged custom prices.

You should contact Wood-Mode directly. I'll bet they won't be happy about one of their dealers pulling a bait and switch on customers. Even if the drawings aren't precise, you contract does say custom Wood-Mode doesn't it?

I don't have any filler. Where I needed clearance for knobs, door trim, etc., the cabinet maker made the side stile there wider.

Filler is also useful if your wall is bowed. It is easier to trim the filler to match the bow than to trim an attached piece (and less risky, if you mess up you just need another filler, not another cabinet).

MOst definately contact wood mode and let them look at the cabinets ordered to see exactly how many are custom verusus stock. I would raise heck and as for either the upcharges back since it is stock cabinetry or send all the cabinets back and get custom!

I bet you paid a pretty penny too!

Yep, we paid a pretty penny.

Actually, many, many, pretty pennies.

Years worth of savings of pretty pennies.

Our contract is specifically for Wood-Mode custom cabinets.

We've tried contacting Wood-Mode. Their response is that each dealer is an independent business and they have no say how that dealer operates!!!

The dealer insists that we should be happy.

I am really disappointed the Wood-Mode doesn't support the actual customer better.

They see their customer as being the dealer.

Have you paid your contractor in full? I sure hope not or you may have no leverage. This is just wrong.

"even semi-custom shouldn't need all that filler "

This is not TRUE.

"custom" can mean many different things especially if you are using frameless or euro constructed cabinets. IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU DO NOT NEED A FILLER.

Stop listening to the sales weasels that can only tout bullet points.

Doors and drawer fronts need clearance to keep from banging into each other and walls and other knobs and handles and hardware of appliances and door casings and baseboards and..... This can be accomplished by customizing the box, itself the filler, the stile on a framed cabinet or just leaving an open space.

It ALL depends on the designer and his/her interpretation of the client's vision and wishes. Cabinets can still be "custom" made for a particular customer and space while still fitting inside fixed parameters - i.e. "standard" box sizes. Joe the local cabinetmaker may be more economical at making a 33 3/32" faceframe cabinet to fit in your space than the local WoodMode dealer who also makes "custom" stuff but prefers to do a 32" + 2" extended stile for fitment because it'll cost the client less. This would all be unacceptable to the person in Calif. wanting a euro constructed box out of high gloss lacquer because neither of those would be able to deliver. That person might get a 80 cm box with a 3-4cm "filler" that would be in the same plane as the full overlay doors. All would be "custom" for that client's 33 3/32" space and none is, in and of itself, better than the other. They are just different.

Now, none of this really has anything to do with the OP's dilemma. His seems to be one of contractual fulfillment or lack of , AND in mis-communication.

"Stock" cabinets means exactly that - the boxes are in stock on the shelves ready to take home with you that day. There is no ordering anything. After that that terms often get blurred especially custom which strictly means anything anytime. There are very few of these left because few people have the money to indulge an enterprise like this , and the skill to do everything everywhere is immense. Very few possess it.

This is outrageous! I feel so bad for you. It's really sad when unscrupulous businesses take advantage of honest people. How dare they tell you what you should be happy with. Sheesh!

Please register complaints with the Better Business Bureau and your County Consumer Protection Department. They won't make you any happier, but you might save some other folks from these crooks. I would also join Angie's list, just to post a negative review of them.

Your only protection is if you put any payments on your charge card, you can cancel the charge. And if you haven't paid them, I would certainly withhold payment until I was fully satisfied. Be sure to take plenty of pictures and video in case it ends up in court. They can place a lien, but it only stays a year unless they take you to court and prove they should be paid.

I fully understand Wood-mode's position. You're right, the contractor is their customer. That person may order 100 cabinets from them over time, you are likely to order only one. Sadly, the supplier can't control the quality of the installer. But, they do end up looking bad too.

Post your layout and pictures. I'm not sure what to say here without more information.

However,I'll make one point: Even Wood-mode's spec book has standard sizes....but it's still considered a 'custom cabinet'. Custom, meaning a higher end cabinet with the *ability* to order in custom sizes or configurations.

Have you checked the drawers for a logo?

The Wood-Mode logo is on the drawers:
{{gwi:1594581}}

Here is a pic of the size of the filler on the service porch wall:
{{!gwi}}

And a pic of the footprint the cabinets were supposed to fill:

{{!gwi}}

And a pic of the filler in the kitchen:
{{!gwi}}

I have to still figure out how to post plans on here.

Frameless cabinets do require a filler up against the wall...especially when you have window or door trim, like you have. A filler helps too, if your wall is not straight.

Were your last cabinets framed or frameless? Maybe they were 'partial overlay'. Those don't always require filler, as the exposed stile acts as the filler.

And it looks to me like you do have Wood-Mode. Your cabinets look great.

I agree that we need to see more pictures but from the one picture I can understand...the last one... it looks like a filler was used so you could open the door and NOT jam it into the door trim all the time

And, by the way, from that little corner, I can see that your kitchen is probably very beautiful...white cabinets, blue paint, pillowed tile...and the corners where everyhting meets looks clean and not sloppy

When we've asked about all of this, we were just told that these measures were done to "save us money."

what I want to know if they have saved you money where is it?
Also these corners they seem to have cut for your financial gain - they should have discussed with you at the time.
do you have any recourse with them?

(When i spoke to my cabinet guy about fillers ( because i had been told that you "have" to have them , he asked me why? Why do i want a filler when i can have cabinet space instead? I laughed and said i don't want filler if i can do without.)

I did not say no filler was needed, I said you don't need that much filler...

And I stand by that statement. I can't see the pics (they appear to have been deleted), so I can't comment on what others are saying about them. Yes, you will need some filler to clear door trim for pullouts/drawers, but it's the other places you mentioned + the shortened cabinets that seem to be a problem.

With one exception, I have hardly any filler in my full-overlay, semi-custom kitchen despite having walls, varying depths of upper cabs, and 2 corners. The only exception is the corner where the warming drawer is (I think there's 3" there)...and that's b/c the handle sticks out so far that we had to have some filler to allow the drawers that were 90 degrees to it open w/o hitting the WD handle. The rest of the fillers were b/w 1/2" and 1" and are few and far between...

And since most semi-custom cabs come in at least 3" increments, there's no reason for shorting the OP on cabinets by 4", 6", etc.

Maybe my KD was better at the final detailed designs of my kitchen and that's why I don't have much and what I do have is very small...but still...

Beuhl, agreed. I think the picture showed 2 1/2" filler. It was hard to tell how thick the adjacent window trim was, but it looked to be about 3/4"-1" thick. It's true that a smaller filler could have been used in her kitchen.

I really think the main problem here was lack of communication between the homeowner and the kitchen designer. We were not there and have no idea of what transpired between the two parties. It also seems that paperwork and documentation were lacking on the part of the KD.

Lesson for all KD's and homeowners. Document everything.

As a KD, I have saved myself a lot of headaches (and money) by documenting and saving every correspondence and making sure that my clients know exactly what they are getting.

I once had a client call me and he was very angry after receiving delivery of his Plain & Fancy painted white cabinets. He said that his cabinets had a wood interior, not white...and why weren't the interiors white????? Of course, it had been almost 4 months since we ordered, so I couldn't recall all of the details that we poured over, but I told him I was certain we had discussed it. His reply? "There's no way I would have agreed to a wood interior. I want white!!!". Well, I went back through emails and found where we had discussed it. In the email I gave him a choice of the wood or painted interior. And his response was that he didn't want to pay the premium for a matching white interior. That probably saved me a thousand dollars in materials and labor if I hadn't documented and SAVED that email.

Looking carefully at my final design I found some filler that seemed excessive. KD made a choice to have a Pantry be 21" so it would have 1 door, that meant a 3-1/2" filler (there's a 24" soffit with beam). One door means it can be opened with one hand, and entire side of pullout accessible. Extra room by wall assured door can be easily fully opened so pull outs don't hit door. So there can be reasons for fillers.... still hate losing the 2".

You really do have to look very carefully at the KD plans. Look at each door and think about how it being open affects you typical work flow.

You want wall views with all measures and fillers showing. I didn't see those until the order was placed. Next time around I would get those sooner. The room design software does a pretty good job, but the cab maker's configurator forces some final tweaks. There are 2 weeks to make changes.

Every single kitchen that exists has tradeoffs between the "ideal" and the reality of the space. Frameless and full overlay cabinets require tradeoffs in that they need space against walls to allow for molding clearances and for their doors to open fully.

One tradeoff would be that you won't be able to fully open a door that's next to a deeper cabinet like an oven cabinet because you will either need a spacer there or you will need to limit the degree of opening the door has so it (and it's hardware) won't bang against the deeper cabinet. So, you either have smaller cabinets with spacers to increase the door swing clearance, or you live with your door swing limited. Every kitchen has these situations that can be difficult to understand for a homeowner.

"Custom" cabinetry won't magically solve those clearance issues. THey still exist. What custom cabinetry can do is to make those clearance issues less wasteful of space, and look better while doing that. It comes at cost. A cost in addition to the upcharge of using a custom cabinet line itself.

I don't deal in custom cabinets. I only rep semi custom lines. But, extended stiles are possible in some of my lines. It's a lot more expensive a choice than using a filler would be. In a custom line, I can see where it would be even more expensive a choice. 30% more doesn't sound at all out of line for the cost difference in using fillers vs. custom extended stiles.

As Kompy said, the key issue here is communication. There seems to be a lack of understanding, or documentation, as to exactly what choices were selected for this kitchen. There also seems to be a misunderstanding as to what custom cabinetry can and can't do, and at what cost. Would the OP have selected that KD and cabinet line knowing that what she truly wanted would cost 30% more? Or would she have selected a lower cost cabinet line that could have accomplished the kitchen that she currently has in the same manner but at a lesser cost? We weren't there for those decisions, and the discussions by both parties don't seem to be well documented. It's a shame that the OP is so disappointed in the kitchen, which appears to be lovely, but this can be a lesson to all to save copies of all of your communication with your KD and cabinet company and be very very clear as to what you are purchasing.