I can see the appeal, but to me your new version looks like it would entail a lot of "running around", despite the second sink. Sure, the dishes from the dining room would go straight in the dw, but what about cooking dishes? It's a loonnnggg way from one side to the other!

I'm deeply envious of all your space, however, and of a kitchen-centric laundry area (regardless of where it winds up)!

Thanks for the feedback! I should have said -- I hand wash most pots and prep dishes anyway. I was thinking how great it would be to wash them right there :)

There is running around between the main fridge and freezer and the snack area (Advantium and fridge drawers), but I think I can organize adequately to make it work.

If my biggish kitchen comes out half as nicely as your compact one, and functions nearly as well, I'll be very happy. I agree with you about the kitchen area laundry, but remember that all that kitchen space is just that much more floor that needs to be mopped!

the biggest drawback to me is that your laundry room is now the first thing people see when they walk out of your dining room. and to me, it looks like there are too many places in the kitchen, like it's been stationed to death. I can understand if you've got a ton of people cooking with you ( and I have no idea, maybe you do) but as a regular kitchen, I think your original layout makes so much more sense.

I'm a "zone" person so I don't see a problem with the clean-up area location.
But, I don't understand where your prep counter will be in this. It seems a bit much to have to take your produce 6 feet away to wash it. And whatever you're putting in that Advantium - it'll be a long way to carry it hot to wherever you're serving out.

"I've been looking at it too long!"
I totally know the feeling!

Sorry for another ?negative? comment, but I currently have a small compacted U. It's not identical to your layout (which I would love instead of my U-layout), but if you have more than 1 person doing something in the U, it gets really annoying!
And because your space is so big, I would not have walk-ways around the table to just 36inches. Again, from my current BAD situation, the distance between my peninsula and the fireplace is 29inches. Yes, 7inches make a BIG difference; I just like more walking space, especially to the sliding door.
(I do have that claustrophic thing.)

Oh, I'm happy to have the negative comments. They're very useful!! Thanks to all. Below are responses that say what I was thinking, but I treasure your comments because that thinking is surely muddy. :)

The black measures are only as long as the lines, so there's actually more like 42" around the table, which I can also see moving closer to the door as a staging plane when serving large dinners in the dining room. I am the primary cook, except for when I'm entertaining (minimum family dinner is 25) when there might be three or more.

I'm not too worried about the view of the laundry room door from the dining room. One of the advantages of this layout is getting rid of the tunnel to the dining room that I have currently and on the first plan.

I was thinking that most prep would be done on the counter next to the fridge. It's extra deep and would have the mixer, cuisineart, etc. Obviously, washing and peeling would be done at the sink. The 6' across isn't ideal, but on the first layout it's actually about the same (the down side of a large space and a yen for large appliances.)

Under the Advantium are fridge drawers which would have sandwich stuff and leftovers, as well as beverages. I was thinking of this as a whole snack center outside of the main cooking area.

Lots of dripping across the floor between sink and prep counter... Altogether too tight in the prep and cook zone for me.

I think you'd need a spacer of some sort between the DW and end cabinets or you'll be bumping/scraping the knobs/pulls. (maybe even the doors themselves)

I think you had a better plan before.

I like the other one better as well. I don't like the W/D out in the open. It seems like there are lots of "nooks and crannys" that you'll be running in and out of. Almost looks like a maze. Not sure if you were planning chairs around the table, but I don't think there would really be enough room. If people were sitting there while you were trying to work in the kitchen, it would be a problem.

Your other layout is much "calmer" to me. It never hurts to try. Better to do it now then regret something later. I can relate!!!

Thanks for the further feedback, and the clearly stated opinions for my rain soaked wooze.

I should have depicted the pocket door closed on the laundry room :) The freezer was originally in there when I realized it might as well be on the outside, though that does make it choppier.

My analysis: Both plans cut the space into three zones, two smaller, one larger. The first plan (linked above) keeps the current basic footprint of a small laundry room and a passage to the dining room with storage opening off it, with a larger kitchen space.

This plan (shown above) has a slightly larger laundry room, a smaller kitchen area, and a large seating/eating/snack area. There is no casual seating in the house other than the kitchen (unless you count my brother napping on the living room sofa :) ). Moving the DW down and pushing the left hand counter in to 24" would free up 6" for the seating area, making it more than 11 feet across.

But the first layout does have about twice the storage. :)

And you all like it better :) I suppose I knew you would, but I had to try :D

In the end though - it's your kitchen and you really know best how it's going to work for your life.

I sort of like the "tunnel" to the dining room myself - it reminds me of grand old houses with butler's pantries between the kitchen and dining room. But that's my own personal thing.

I'm wondering, while wearing the Christian Louboutin purple and fuscia pumps will you be able to manage it all??? rofl...

ROTFLOL!!! Buffettgirl, thanks for the morning wake-up laugh, and for bumping this thread up so I don't have to go looking for it :) Yeah, I've been calling the new version of the tunnel "butler's pantry" and with the counter and new width it won't be as tunnelsome as the blank walls currently are now.

But get this...

The rain stopped and the mental skies cleared.

I set myself to trying to figure out why the first GW approved plan didn't satisfy me, and what it was I liked enough about plan 2 to keep plugging at it. Finally the number one difference hit me: I hated the island!! It was too small to be spread out like the current peninsula, and too big to be small. It was too close to the top and bottom counters but shorter would be lots less useful. And it was immobile. And I really wanted a sink near the company dishes, but a fourth sink seemed silly.

I should mention that I have an 8'x4' cutting table in my studio for non-cooking things that people like to do on big surfaces.

So I replaced it with a pretty good sized table. And it works! The island was an artifact of when I needed it for landing space from the fridge on the very first plan, and for counterspace from that plan because of the rolling height counter. And I was trying to be more modern, but some recent discussions have inspired me to with ideas for hybridization, so I can Walton's table with frameless cabinets :)

I can roll on the table. By putting a boards cabinet by the DW I have a place to put both the bread board and marble slab near the table. I can use the counter there for shaping loaves.

That puts the secondary sink back by the dishes and stemware. The butler's pantry area goes back to being the secondary prep area. Yes, it's not near the cooking area, but for my purposes that's not a bad thing. Secondary prep happens most often during mob scenes. But I have to ask the electrician if I can really put the shredder under the sink :) And that puts the fridge drawers back there too, which is convenient to the dining room for beverages.

The biggest problem left from removing the island is losing the folding chairs storage. I decided that if I were willing not to have the secondary sink counter open to the kitchen I could use some of the pantry for them. And I'm going to work on some nifty way to hang the TV above them while keeping storage behind it, because I really needed the overoven for pitchers and things if I put the chairs in the pantry. Which took out the old, too narrow, baker's rack... Inspiration! I could hang fold down baker's shelves from the side of the oven cabinet. How convenient is that? Especially with the side opening ovens?

I put in a potfiller which will then give some water near the rear window counter area, where I'm likely to do my baking mixing (and, yes, it's a trek from the fridge with ingredients, but it's one I do now and don't mind).

Also, I thought I should put grommets in the floor under the table area for power and comm. And possibly pipe it for water (depending on the plumber's opinion) so that an island can be put in at a later date without tearing up the slab foundation again.

I actually like this plan!

But, needless to say, I might be overlooking something important.

Please comment. All opinions are valued here. Especially the "negative" ones :)

well now...I think you've hit on what is going to work for the way you live. I can totally see that a casual seating place is important to you, so what you've done with the table really works well. This is very much like what happens at my mom's house - we LIKE to eat in the kitchen and we like to all sit there while we're cooking too - all of us. So this is a layout that I can see being very useful and very appropriate.

What if you did a tall counter high table and at least that way it becomes usable counter area as well?

I hate to even bring this up- but is the door of the 36" SZ going to be tight to open with the chairs there?

I know they're not as comfortable, but would you want to think about having stools at the table instead of chairs? Especially if the table is used a lot for prep and if it's counter height. The backs of the chairs can really get in the way but with stools you can push them completely underneath. Or maybe you would want to have two of each, or something...just a thought. I love the idea of a table in the kitchen and know what you mean about not liking the island in the previous setup. Holly

Great comments!

Buffettgirl, I get the use of the high table, but there are two reasons to do it normal height. One is for rolling. Taking out the rolling height counter meant that I didn't need the island for counter space. On the intermediate plan, I thought to do a pull out instead, but what I didn't like about the pullout is the likelihood of flour in crevices that are near impossible to clean. This way, I can put a wood backed marble on the table and have a rolling station where the flour only gets on the floor (I have a good mop), and where it's easy to dump in the sink. Same for shaping on the sink counter.

The other reason is so my mother can sit and be comfortable. As it is now, with all counter height and stools, I sit her in a folding chair and she feels like she's in the way. If she can sit at the table (on a mob night, probably at the end backing to the pantry so that the cook traffic can go around her on the other sides), she'll be happy, and she can work on plating and stuff and feel useful.

Jillypie, excellent point about the swing on the refrigerator door. I didn't think of that, but I don't think it'll be a big problem. Most of the time I'm cooking the chairs will be pushed in. I stuck the biggest table I could in the picture, 4'x6', just for planning, and 20" chairs, pushed back. I have a beloved old table and chairs in the garage which I can use for awhile, while I figure out how the kitchen works.

One of the things I like about the table and chairs is that I can scoot them around to be out of my way if I want more room here or there, and for big company events I can even push it up against the slider to have a straight shot from the stove to the dining room door.

For kitchen dinners with the oven in use and 3-4 people seated, if necessary the door swing can be a move your carcass moment :) And with beverages in the butler's pantry, with luck that won't be a common happening.

Holly, great suggestion. I was actually looking at a couple of tables with benches online just to get an idea of sizes (most are about 39"x54"). Maybe a bench on one side and a couple of chairs? Or lowback chairs? I'll see what I find.

I'm just thrilled that the comments so far have been about helping me find the best kind of table rather than blasting me for getting rid of the island :D

Okay, I checked the measurements precisely (SZ's planning guide says the swing area is only 36 1/16" on the 650, which is the one I like), and there should be just enough room not to whack someone seated in front of the fridge door, even with a four foot wide table. Thanks for bringing up the issue, Jillypie!

This layout is MUCH better than the previous one. When I first saw the previous one above I didn't have time to post yet but, I thought the laundry should be on the left side then the kitchen could be layed out more cohesively. I like it! I would personally like a bit more space between the sink and cooktop. No solution just a comment. I also think your table idea would be good if table height works well for you. And it's much better to have your mom seated at a table from what you describe.

Eureka! I like a lot better than the roller-skates (purple and fuschia, of course) version above, too.

Also (as I think you or somebody else pointed out) if it's a table, you can MOVE it. Heck, you can even take it out and replace it with an island if you decide you don't like it!

I must say, I look at your planned appliances and just begin to salivate. I think if I ever do this again I want to be able to spend money on appliances instead of flitch beams!!

Btw, Plllog, I found a pair of flat (comfy rubber-soled), RED patent leather boots on serious sale the other day - which I of course bought (for $20, reduced from over $100. Are you kidding - that's a no brainer!) and spent several unsuccessful hours online trying to find a picture so I could post them and say, "The perfect kitchen! Oh, did I say kitchen? I meant SHOES".

But I couldn't find a picture of them...

Tres cute, however - they satisfy my need for walkability AND diva-inspired fashion sillies all in one shiny red package :)

Mom2lilenj, thanks! I don't know why it took me so long to figure out that I didn't have to have counters on both sides of the working aisles. I've always had galleys before this super-U, I guess.

Divamum, Beams are good! They hold up the house! But, yeah, it sucks to have to spend on structural when you want candy. My attitude toward big purchases like cars, kitchens, or even appliances, is to go without until there's money, then spend on the very best and keep it as long as possible.

Hm... 7 foot integrated all fridge and freezer anchoring a low slung pedestal kitchen all in red lacquer. Does that say flat, shiny, red, divalicious boots to you? (Congrats on the find!)

Plllog,
I think you should take another look at the laundry room layout. You will not be able to access the hot water heater if it needs servicing in any situation.

Secondly,
I think the walkways are really small. I would use the 42.5" size walkway for the space to get to the sliding doors.

I have a few more questions before making some more suggestions:
1. Is the window over the sink currently in place or will it be put there as part of the remodel?
2. How much space do you have in your dining room? Do you have a hutch or china cabinet in your dining room?
3. How many people do you think will be using the kitchen at one time a majority of the time?

BTW, I am doing a modular gaggenau installation in my kitchen also. I will have two wok burners and two cooktek induction cooktops. I love this arrangement of single burners versus a 5 or 6 burner layout.

Homepro01

Homepro, Thanks for the concern; the water heater is already in place there, drywalled in. It has an external access door (such a beauteous ornament for the patio!). The laundry room in the bottom configuration is as it is currently, and it works fine. (Having the machines cornered to each other is actually more convenient for loading the dryer.)

Here's the .

Good point about the walkway to the door, but it isn't heavily used except one week a year when I serve a lot of outdoor meals. That's a move the table time :) Because of the things that currently reside in the aisle there, there's about 3' of actual walking room now, so I put 6' as the very longest table that would fit in the scale drawing.

There is an enormous sink currently under that window (mostly--it's bigger!). I really like having the window over the sink, but if you have a different idea I will happily consider it.

The dining room is something like 14'x16' and the whole side at the bottom of the layout drawing is open to the huge living room, which has a large opening to the large entry. One thing I love is being able to close the kitchen doors from the rest of the house :) There's one extra large armoire in there, which is overstuffed to a fairtheewell. I am so eager to have the stemware in cupboards where it might only need a bit of light dusting max, rather than stored in boxes so that I have to wash both before and after a dinner.

Most of the time I cook alone, but there can be three or four people hanging around at any particular moment. When I entertain there might be as many as three active helpers, plus more who want to help. Family dinners are what other folks call "catering"; 25-50 people. The island design puts a bigger barrier between the kibitzers and the cooks, but the trade offs with the table are definitely worth it.

Tell me more about your cooktop combination! I keep going round and round on alternatives. I use big pots! My thought was one 10-11" induction, two smaller ones, two gas, and maybe the teppan yaki. In the picture it's all Gaggenau because that's the biggest version, but I won't be absolutely sure until things calm down and I can do some more go see.

Are you getting the front and back Cookteks? I couldn't tell in checking the specs how big the pots could be.

I think you have really really thought this through now and you're where you need to be. :) :) I especially thought about my dear granny (no longer with us) and how she'd sit at my mom's table and cut some veggies or whatnot. but we never had a high table at that time. So you've got a perfect point.
and just like at my mom's, she moves her table around depending on the situation. So some days it's right in the middle of the floor - some days it's up against the wall, some days it's a little of both for serving. So I "get" your kitchen that way you have it now, does that make sense? I understand exactly how you function and cook in there...in fact...I feel like we're related LOL.

It's funny, plllog - I read your posts and smile because your approach and thinking in the way your verbalising and streamlining your plans is SO similar to the way I hashed through a zillion different possibilities with my own. And I have to tell you, it was worth it because I KNOW that I have the best kitchen for our needs in our space. I think it was Celticmoon who first said that I would feel that way after it was all done (well, it's only mostly all done but you know what I mean) and she was absolutely right. I KNOW that I couldn't have done anything else with the layout beyond what we've wound up with, and we couldn't be happier.

Good for you - keep up the good work!

Thank you both for the warm fuzzies :)

Yeah, Buffettgirl, it makes sense :) I'm your mom :D ROTFL! It's really good to have your feedback and know that the whole concept works :)

Divamum, your new kitchen is awesome! Thanks for the encouragement. And, yeah, I feel like this was the "aha!" moment, like when you posted about opening up to the dining room. Kick convention to the curb :)

I think the only thing I'll really miss about the island is the really cool trough sink :)

Plllog,
First the Gaggs, as I call them. I am doing the 12" vario wok burner because I don't want the controls in the front but on the cooktop surface. I have tried this in a few showrooms, and because I tend to lean on stuff, I worried about the control being right near my hip. I saw on another thread you mentioned that the controls for the larger Gaggenau could be mounted on the counter. Where did you get that information? That would be great if it can be done because I would prefer the larger units (15" wide). A showroom I visited many years ago had this configuration, and although it was only four burners in the space of what would typically be six or eight burners on a prorange, this was more user friendly. I successfully fitted my 13" saute pan on all these burners without any problems.

I am getting two individual cookteks (14" wide) and placing them next to the gas unit. I did not want the side to side cookteks becaue the configuration is going to be one Gas burner, one Induction, One gas and the final induction. There is going to be about 4" of space between each unit. The whole configuration will take up 66". I am pretty close to deciding on the hood. I am going to probably go with an Abbaka hood! The price is high but they will make then with Ventahood blowers which I really like.

From what you are saying, one thing that jumps out is that a 30" sink may be small for the way you use your kitchen. As a primary sink, I would go with something bigger.

Would you consider a peninsula instead of an island? I think the shape of the island is bugging me for some reason and I don't know why. I am constrained by some philisophies though, I really like the sink under a window and like the cooktop against a wall so that venting is better managed. I will continue to look at it. Maybe finding a different but interesting shape for the island may also work. Maybe round or surf board? What is the style of the kitchen you are after?

Thanks!

Homepro, thanks for the ideas! I love ideas! But shudder I can't wait to get rid of my peninsula. It's worse than an island :) Ah!, but here I see our miscommunication :) The brown rectangles are supposed to represent furniture (wood) and the yellow circles are chairs or stools (upholsery), where as the cabinets are gray (crosshatching) and the uppers are transparent gray. :) Surface appliances are white, and undercounter ones are under the gray, and the transparent red is the hood.

The brown rectangle is a table which is 100% moveable, and which will probably be smaller. I drew the largest rectangle I could fit :)

In my very first layout (which is remarkably similar to the latest one except for the pantry solution) I tried a small island with a small table tucked under it. It fit, and I considered the of reviving it, but I do so like the idea of the whole floor space being open, rather than confined! It leaves room for 4 people to sit and eat fairly comfortably rather than squeezed in, oh, let's sit in the dining room already.

I like the sounds of surfboard and round islands :) I like my table better, but I like the way you think!

The style will likely be hybrid. I'm leaning toward Euro style frameless cabinets (not having talked to the cabinet maker in detail yet), with slab doors. With a farm table :) My house isn't old, but it has a kind of N.O. style. Originally I was thinking white to pick up on that, but I don't think I want painted cabinets.

I haven't really shopped sinks yet. Thanks for the mention. The size can change when I can touch some :) I do like my current 48" sink a lot, but it's rather massive. I was thinking of a single bowl sink with an offset drain. In the above plan the work wall counter is 27" deep and I might push it to 30". If so, I think I'd like to put a drainer behind the sink. It's the kind that's like a strip of overgrown colander steel and connects to the drain pipe. Then I could set my produce colander there to drain, instead of balanced on the waste bowl in the current sink, and put cutting boards and baking sheets to drip there. I do that anyway, but that leads to puddles :) If I do that, I'll do an in counter knife holder too, behind the dishwasher.

I haven't really shopped the hood yet. Just read threads and rooted around online Some of it will depend on the cooktop I end up with so there's no point in getting too far into it before then. It has to vent out the wall since there's no ducting up through the second storey. The Abbaka looks a lot like what I have now, though I don't remember the name -- I bought what could be made to fit in a bad location :)

Re the Gaggs, it was an appliance salesman who'd been to Gaggenau training sessions and was spouting the party line who said the 15" controls could be deck mounted, and it's just logical. I assume the same for the Cooktek, which also has the front mount controls. It's just that you have to have enough clearance for safety. I don't know if 4" is enough. BTW, have you looked at the Wolf wok burner? It has surface mounted knobs.

If I do the four part Gagg top it'll have to be with the front knobs for space. Likely the same if I get some Gagg or Cooktek and some other parts. Looks isn't top importance to me (others choose the range because they like the knobs), but lining up the danged knobs is one thing I'd like to do.

I'm hoping to get more information at a distributor this week or next. I'll let you know.

Got an appointment at the Gagg distributor. Will have more info soon :)

Now that I'm settling into this new design I realized something else! If I go with the wide table I can use it with the DR table when the whole family sits down together instead of renting! Maybe I can even get leaves. Hm... Though I'm not sure out the slider and in the french doors is a good idea. But if I can find one that collapses small, it could go through the door. I have a place I can store leaves :) And a couple little tables I can put in the kitchen for staging instead.

I'm so glad you're finding a lot to love about the final layout! I think it really works for you.

and I know you're not my mom because my mom is waiting for me to finish my kitchen and then dissect all my mistakes so that she can then start HER kitchen. heheehe.. I only half joke. lol

Pllog--About the water heater--the second house we owned, the water heater was in little bump-out closet on the outside of the house. Something to consider in your situ?

Ci_lantro, Thanks for the suggestion. If I needed to move the water heater, I'd probably do that. But then I'd have to do a lot of repiping because it can't go on the patio so would have to be on the side yard (right of the drawing). Living with it where it is will save me a lot of money and aggravation. (And I want to spend all my money on candy! I.e., appliances and finishes).

Buffettgirl, just tell your mom I'm doing her old kitchen and she won't have to remodel :D [VVVVBG]

hahhahahaa....my mom would wish she had half your space...that's going to be her biggest challenge.