Framed Full Overlay Cabinets vs Frameless

11 years ago

One cabinet maker (Dutch Wood in PA) can make a full overlay cabinet that has the look of frameless, but the boxes are actually framed. I was wondering if anyone has experience with this and how they like it. I guess is cuts down a bit on internal drawer box dimensions and I was hoping for mostly drawers in my lower cabinets. Is this impact very great? Does anyone know if most of the cabinet makers in PA only do framed cabinets?

Thanks for any feedback.

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Comments (6)

beekeeperswife
11 years ago
You will be hard pressed to find a cabinetmaker in the area that does frameless. Jason explained to me that it would be a big investment in new machines for them that they aren't ready to make.

I have the cabinets like you are describing. They are wonderful. Where are you located? You are more than welcome to come see my kitchen, I'm a short hop from H'bg.

Bee
Cloud Swift
11 years ago
When my husband built our old entertainment system cabinets, he did narrow frames and no frames between the drawers in a section:

(For those reading my thread on our kitchen/family room remodel - these cabinets were sized to fit the niche to the right of the old fireplace and went to good homes with 2 of our son's when we got the new cabinets.)

The frames he made are only slightly wider than the thickness of the cabinet walls and since there is no frame between the drawers, we didn't lose space to that. The result is framed cabinets with almost as much drawer capacity as frameless.

These were inset, but would work equally well with full overlay drawer fronts.

We talked to a couple of local custom cabinet makers when we did our kitchen, but they wouldn't consider deviating even that much from their usual framing, but I've seen someone post here who had a custom shop who did it.

It shouldn't require new machines for a framed cabinet maker to do this.
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I am a cabinetmaker, I know how the sausage is made. I know very many cabinetmakers and I know very many installers. My practical knowledge is not a generalization, it is not a personal viewpoint, far from it. It is fact. Are you a cabinetmaker? Ok akchicago, lets begin the lesson. Frameless as you call them are euro boxes, thats because they originated in Germany post ww2. Europe had no kitchens, so they needed cabinets quickly. They sat down and came up with what is essentially a modular system based on a 32 mm increment. This was the initial distance between two boring spindles on the first euro woodworking machine. Incidentally, many Europeans take their kitchen cabinets with them when they move. Because of this ( and other reasons to be explained ) there needs to be a common installation system that is simple to use. I am not bashing American face frame cabinets, they are just differently made and need different machines and due to the joinery and material choice have much looser tolerances. Look at Poggenpohl website, they have a video of the manufacturing process. Now this is the utimate in euro but you get the idea, the machinery is top notch. Its not a powermatic table saw, a planer and a jointer. Anyhow....32mm ( the true name of frameless ) is a system. The base cabinets should have adjustable legs, such as the ones made by Camar. There should be no integral toe. This was cables can pass underneath and water damage will not wick upwards into your cabinet. There should be no blocking of the slides or hinges, they should be flush with the cabinet sides and work "in system" ie increments of 32mm. Reveals are commonly set to 3/32" and should be perfectly lined up horizontally and vertically everywhere. In terms of the biggest installation mistake, look at the uppers. They should have "suspension blocks" in the top left and right corners. These are small adjustable hardware that have a hook on the back that fit onto a metal rail that is attached to the wall behind. The reason for these suspension blocks is this,...if you were to say mount the cabinets directly to the wall with screws, the cabinets will conform to the irregular contours of the wall. These forces cause racking of the box, the box has no face frame to keep the opening square, now all the front edges of the cabinets are out of plane, that means your doors will not be set square or co-planar ie your reveals will never be constant. I am not trying to dissuade you from frameless. I love frameless. What I am trying to impress on you is that its very important to choose the right cabinet company. Here's the thing, I am coming from a very high level and to be honest most people dont see the things that I do. Why dont you tell them that you want the faces to be perfectly flush and the reveals equal, level and plumb. Stress this point and tell them you will go around and check each door when its done.
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I know this is an old post, but it addresses something I am just learning about so I hope it's ok to revive it. I was assuming that it was impossible to tell the difference between full overlay framed and frameless cabinets when the drawers are closed. jackuvall notes above that the gap between adjacent doors/drawers is smaller in frameless construction, which is what I'm trying to figure out. I was thinking about grain matched walnut (for MB), but all the photos I've saved appear to have very small gaps between drawers and are most likely frameless. Is there a way to minimize the reveal between drawers in full overlay framed construction? I'm after the look below, but in my full overlay framed kitchen the reveal is anywhere from 1/8" - 1/2". It's white painted, so I'd never really noticed, but I think those type of gaps would stick out with grain matched walnut. Opinions and ideas?
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I would imagine the biggest difference is in the depth (up & down) of drawers since frameless don't have the stiles across. On my bank of Brookhaven (frameless) four drawers, the top drawer is shallowest at about 3.5" deep. The next two drawers are about 4" and the bottom is about 9.5" deep. They are 19.75" front to back, and on a 23" wide custom cab, the width is about 19 7/8", so I suppose a regular 24" cab would be 20 7/8" on the inside. I really can't vouch for the accuracy of the top drawer depth, but on the three drawer bank, the depth of the bottom two drawers is 10.25". The sides and back do not go all the way up, but that hasn't been a problem. Full extension drawers are definitely worth having. We don't have soft close which I don't regret. But full extension means full use, and I wish that I had that feature on every single drawer in the house. What a difference!
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I'm getting partial overlay for several reasons (I like the looks of both so looks is not one of them): my cabinets go all the way to the ceiling which is most likely crooked so I would be scraping it with the upper doors, I can also use the extra space on top to install the crown molding (i.e., attach it from the front rather than top of the cabinet). The crown will be tine but it will fit without sacrificing the space. The special corner arrangement I have would require additional fillers for FO, thus, more loss of space. Last but not least, the door style I picked comes as PO (it seems like the doorstyle is either FO or PO but you can't pick a door and a style separately; my experience at least and I had quotes from 3 different places, all said the same). I enclosed a picture of my old kitchen which is not pretty but PO. You can see it's tiny so every inch counts. Here is a link that might be useful: old PO kitchen
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williamsem
11 years ago
I have read it's about a 10% overall difference in space.

I am getting frameless cabinets, mostly drawer lowers. So my interiors are 2x3/4 in (box sides) + 2x5/8 in (drawer sides) plus a little space to move, so about 3 inches less interior drawer measurement vs cabinet size. So my 30 inch drawers should be 27 inches interior size.

Framed cabinets would be less. 2x1.5 in + 2x5/8 in plus space would be about 4.5 inches, so a 30 inch drawer would have about a 25.5 interior measurement. More if you have a smaller face frame, but still less interior space than frameless.

Figure out how many inches you would lose, then account for drawer depth and height, and that's where the 10% estimate comes from. In my small kitchen I wanted all the inches I could get. But I can see where choosing between inches and DW would be hard. If they did frameless, or if I had a bigger space and coud lose the inches, I would drive there myself to pick them up from Albany!
Jfay
Original Author
11 years ago
Bee-
I live on the north side of Baltimore. I'm sure I'll be making a few trips up your way to investigate a couple cabinet makers and would greatly appreciate taking you up on your offer to see your cabinets. There is just nothing quite like seeing the finished product.

I'm definitely not going to rule out the framed cabinets and I may even consider doing a few of the cabinet areas as inset since it doesn't seem like there would be a great price difference. My kitchen plan includes a stand alone floor to ceiling cabinet area that could look really nice as inset as opposed to overlay.

I was very happy with the quote they gave me as it was close to 10K less then the last quote I got from a kitchen place in town.

What was your opinion of the hardware options they offer as included in the price?
alex9179
11 years ago
A private tour of Bee's kitchen? You're so lucky!
beekeeperswife
11 years ago
Jfay, hardware options are great. Mine are polished nickel by Amerock.

beekeeperswife at gmail dot com

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Framed Full Overlay Cabinets vs Frameless

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beekeeperswife

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Framed Full Overlay Cabinets vs Frameless

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