Hvac quotes, Help Please

wmas1960

13 years ago

I just purchased a home. It was a short Sale and has a few issues that we are trying to work on. Mostly it is in great shape except appliances and mechanicals that are original and are over 22 yrs old. Mainly, on top of our list is HVAC, due to the current tax rebates and the fact that the current furnace is probably running less than 50 % efficient.

The house is 22yrs old, 2 stories, attic according to home inspection is double insulated. 1780 sqft with a crawl. We are located north of

Chicago.

I have 4 quotes and none of them seem to concur on the issue of AC Tons. Of the 4, only 2 did any inspection and measurements. One of the

others, I have thrown out as it was for Amana and the others Trane.

Asside from that, I thought the guy was a weasel from the get go.

So, on to the more serious contenders. All quoted the same furnace and

were a few hundred apart. However, the big difference comes with the AC. In the end we have about a $2000 difference. Bid one quoted a 15

seer 2 ton. Bid 2 also 15 seer said he thought it was 2.5 ton and bid 3 said 3 tons. I was told by the first guy that he thought 2.5 would be ok

but felt for budget and the effect of removing more humidity that he would

be inclined to undersized by .5 ton.

Does any of this make sense out there and what is the significance if I

were to go wit 2.5 and it ended up a half or a full ton small. I will note that the third guy was one who didn't even pull out a tape measure or look around the house. To his credit though he is the most local and seemed

more familiar with the neighborhood which consists of many similar houses with identical floor plans, ages and construction features.

Also, each company proposed different ways to install the flue and intakes. One said down, through the crawl and out the foundation wall. He said that he would put in a trap to drain condensate to the sump pump. The second said through the garage and out the side wall of the

house. The last said that he could go into the garage, through it's attic and out the roof. For 95 % units that we are talking about, do any of those proposals seem inappropriate.

Funny thing is that after 4 proposals, I am more confused than I was

before. Any thoughts and assistance woud be appreciated as I figure I

must decide by this week to schedule install by the 31st.

Thanks for all thoughts and help.

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Comments (5)

veesubotee
13 years ago
You need to keep on looking, as it appears that no one did a proper heat calc. The fact that 2 guys came up with the same size furnace could be dumb luck. The fact that there are IDENTICAL homes is of no consequence. Turning the orientation (to the sun) 90 degrees could change the heat gain/loss characteristics.

You also need to have your duct system evaluated, as it could be presently undersized. Going to a larger system could cause problems, the least of which is noise.

Also, for any meaningful information, post complete model numbers (furnace, condenser, indoor coil).

V
tigerdunes
13 years ago
wmas

most upper end furnaces 95% + efficient are sized in 20K increments beginning at 60 KBTU.

you want to be sized correctly for both heatring and AC. no guessing allowed. I would not want to be undersized by a 1/2 ton for AC in July/August heat.

if this was my decision and you planned to be in home for many years, i would want a 95%+ eff furnace and a rated 15 SEER AC.

I would be lookin g at Trane/AmStd, Carrier/Bryant, Rheem/Rudd.

IMO
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Sizing can be less of an issue when you have multiple units. Because each unit is controlled independently, provided of course the unit itself is not over sized for the area in which it serves resulting in excessive short cycling. In your case 3 ton plus 2 ton isn't necessarily equal to 5 tons of cooling... unless you drive those thermostats really low. By having two systems with total capacity of 5 tons (which, most of the time this would be oversized for a 1700 - 1800 sq ft structure) has a few advantages. 1. You have the ability to use one system only during low heat days or set the opposing unit higher. The unit set higher only runs if load conditions warrant.... meaning if it's not hot, the thermostat controlling the unit does not call... the unit can not run without a call... 2. Utility bills can be much less... because you rarely use both systems at the same time. You run the bedroom system when you sleep, the other when you're awake. If you have a home office in one the bedrooms you may need to rethink things a bit. 3. Extra capacity for when it's hot out. When it's hot you have the capacity to cool the home. (even while entertaining guests --- additional people add heat) Remember heat waves come, heat waves go... a so call 'properly sized' AC system is essentially properly sized roughly 10% of the time... especially if that system is a single speed AC system. Alot of people I come across like to sleep cool. So for that reason I doubt I would change the configuration of the space. Once you realize what you have, the choices you make are mostly budget type concerns. Essentially a set up like this runs like a 2 stage system. This kind of subject is above the pay grade of many... choose your contractor wisely. I service the Katy, Texas area.
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No this does not look reasonable. If I am reading this correctly the contractor wants to install 8 tons of cooling in a 3500 sq foot new build custom home? Why would you want to install a heat pump if natural gas furnaces are being installed? It he basement is mostly underground and finished then it requires very little cooling. The basement could be a zone off the first floor. I also question the 3 ton sizes for the AC, and no size listed for the furnaces. I am skeptical this contractor has done a load calculation. If he has then ask for a copy. I suggest you get two additional quotes. Your first goal is to get a proposal with equipment which is appropriate for you house and location Once you have that then you can focus on the pricing.
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juliekcmo
13 years ago
Stay away from the weasel. Dealer competency is the biggest factor in your ultimate satisfaction, performance, and longevity.
wmas1960
Original Author
13 years ago
To add some more info, all were asked regarding Trane XV95 and XR15

The first bid quoted.
XV95 TUH2B080
XR15 2 ton 4TTR5024

Second bid proposed
XV95 TUH2B080A9V3
And XR15 2.5 ton 4TTR5030
This bid also specified evaporate coil 4TXCB031

The third bid quoted
XV95 and, I think misunderstood me and quoted XL15i 3 ton with no further specification.

I can always tweak the specifications, I guess and boost one unit up or
down, or clarify with the one company that I am interested in XR15 and not XL. But what is what is concerning me is the issue of the size differences. The first and second salesmen did come in and asked some specifics. They looked at windows and doors and measured off the entire interior of all rooms. I believe they noted the fireplace and skylights, as well. One inputted it all in a software program and came up with the 2.0 - 2.5. The second guy took notes and went back to his office. A few hours
later he sent me a very clear email with all info easy to read etc. For all I know, he may have done computer calculations back at the office

The third guy just came in, looked at the existing equipment and duct work, the chimney, as the others did also, and sat down and wrote the proposal. To be honest, unlike the others, I don't even recall him measuring the furnace, closet or existing sheet metal.

Lastly, briefly, what constitutes a proper load test and how best for me to get that. It seems that even the more established and certified Trane dealers around here may not be providing them.

Thanks for all the input.
david_cary
13 years ago
A quick way of noting whether a load test was done is if they give you exact numbers on cooling load - like 28,400 btus. They could be making it up of course but it is a clue. You could just ask them, but they could lie.

I didn't trust my HVAC guy when building but he did send me the numbers which included measurements when I asked.

I don't know but I might walk the neighborhood, find an identical house with identical orientation. It is a bit aggressive but it might be helpful to ask the homeowners how their system is. If they had 2 tons and no problems in the summer, then you'd have some comfort. But likely they are oversized and then you can't really tell.

West facing windows are the big issue with cooling load. Next is infiltration and that is a big unknown. I would generally think a 20 year old house in a cold climate would be reasonably sealed but it really depends.

The load test requires window sizes and wall lengths like the one contractor did.

Hvac quotes, Help Please

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veesubotee

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