"Super-hot" washing isn't really the nut, although some people like to have that option available. The issue is getting actual wash temps anywhere above warm with any of the new HE low-fill-volume machines.

My often-stated example is from my own Duet9400. With the dial set on "hot"; with 130F water entering from the first drop; with machine and full load of clothes at ambient 76F...the actual wash temperature is 100-105F. (I call that warm, not hot.) That's how much heat the mass of the drum and clothes remove from the incoming water. If I want a hotter wash than that, I must select a cycle that utilizes the on-board heater in order to bring the temperature back up. The cycle I usually select is "whitest whites" which boosts wash temp to 127F. (155F is available via "sanitary" cycle but I seldom use that.) Most American-market machines with built-in heaters have similar cycles offering similar temps. European machines with 220v connections can go higher.

In other words, if you want a truly hot wash (say 120-130F) at ANY time with these new low-fill-volume machines, you must have a built-in heater to obtain it. Your recirculating hot water system will not accomplish what you're thinking it will with these machines.

What asolo said is actually not just true for HE TLs. Our high fill TL also doesn't really do any hot washes. The incoming water may be 120 degrees or slightly higher, but it takes about 10 minutes until the tub fills on a full load. During that time the water will cool down. Not as much as it does in a low fill machine, but I wouldn't call it a truely hot wash. It is not always hot enough to get the musty smell out of dish rags and most of those are not supposed to go in the dryer (microfiber). It isn't just about killing the mites, bad odors are caused by fungi and bacteria.

In regards to the question if the dryers don't kill all the bacteria, the good newer dryers don't heat up the air as much as the cheaper ones to prevent clothes from shrinking. They use a higher airflow to get good drying results.

PS: Unless your hot-water pipes are WELL insulated and/or you're using a timer, that recirculation pump is costing you a bundle. Typical heat-losses with such systems unless meticulously configured are tremendous. They're very convenient but they're not money-savers.

Why all the "green" press about washing in cold water? Is there objective, scientific proof that clothes are cleaner when washed in very hot water? How much cleaner? Can this be measured?

We didn't install the hot water circulating pump to save money, although I think someone has done break-even calculations on this cost vs. water wasted as you wait at the tap for hot water.

Water and energy prices are different across the country. If you want to know what the difference is for your own installation, that's pretty easy. Turn the recirc. pump off for a month, then look at your water and energy bills. Easiest if the cycles coincide and you can begin the test close to the head-end of a billing cycle. Also assumes your providers actually read the meters once a month as opposed to guessitmating and adjusting billings as is done in many places. Alternatively, you can read your own meters and figure it out for yourself. You'll quickly learn that water costs a lot less than energy.

"Is there objective, scientific proof that clothes are cleaner when washed in very hot water?"

Yes -- depending upon your idea of what "very hot" is. That would be important. Assuming you're talking about washing machines in the American market, most will go to 155-160F. A few with 220v connections will go to 190-205F. Depending on your altitude, you can be in near-boiling territory. Yes, it does clean better. But there are other considerations. Elastic deteriorates rapidly. Colors fade quickly. Some synthetic fabrics are destroyed. Even 100% white cotton garments may be sown with synthetic thread that won't stand the heat. Many other considerations -- including cost of heating the water and waiting for it to heat.

If you're talking about cold vs. warm/hot, you can test this easily. Take a cold shower tonight. Take a warm/hot one tomorrow night. Tell us which got you cleaner/faster. (Ignore the discomfort!)

Of course I'm joking, but you already know the answer to this from doubtless considerable personal experience.

My advice: Get a machine with a built-in heater and do whatever you want. If you don't, you'll never do a wash above warm.

One of the reasons I use hot water in my FL is that I find I can use much less (and fewer) wash additives. I use only about 1 1/2 Tablespoons of detergent per load, and rarely use - probably less than a dozen times per year - any bleaching chemicals. And my laundry is superbly clean.

Cleaning with hot water is more benign than cleaning with harsh chemicals for the kinds of loads I do.

Keep in mind, too that a FL only heats a few gallons per load, the rest of the fills are generally only cold water ones. In my machines it's less water than I use to boil a pound of pasta.

And in those instances where I want to sanitize (I can't sterilize as my hottest washer only goes to 205F) when some one is ill, or when my pets' bedding needs to be cleaned, I love having the option. I also try to do all my household cleaning with cloth instead of paper towels. Those loads are always washed at 160+, both to clean them and to de-germ them to some degree. My kitchen laundry (aprons, dish cloths, dish drying towels, counter wipes, food handling linens, cloth "greens" bags from the crisper, etc.) are done at high temps, too.

I know it does use more energy to heat even those few gallons to higher temps, but I offset it by almost never using my dryer.

MOlly~

Very enlightening. Do you all use hot water on your clothes or just linens and such? I didn't get a heater because I rarely use hot water due to fading, shrinking, etc. - plus I thought the price of the FL was bad enough without the heater - especially after reading all the reports here about quality problems. Couldn't bring myself to spend any more on something that was going to mold and/or need major repairs/replacement in a few years.

My FL still cleans far better than my old TL even without the heater. Overall I'm happier with it than I thougth I would be. Though after reading this thread one would think I'm left living in a regular petri dish without a heater....no outbreaks or epidemics since we've had it though. I'm wondering just how many people are that concerned about sanitizing their laundry.

FWIW....I don't much care about "sanitizing" anything. I just want clean clothes and I like to know what ACTUAL temperature I'm going to be washing with. I remain resentful of the manufacturers' provided manuals which tell you next to nothing and their controls which are universally labeled with euphemisms.

Via direct conversations with Whirlpool I've learned what everything does. Unfortunately, what they don't tell you is every bit as siginificant as what they do tell you. I'm left to surmise that they've decided no information will be let out into the marketplace that cannot be easily absorbed by third-graders. If you're a literate adult wanting actual, sensible, worthwhile information they leave you to dig for it.

Back to the nut. If you ever at any time want to wash at any temperature above warm with these machines....get one with a heater.

I AM bothered by the fact that I am washing my clothes in lukewarm water--even when I select hot BUT I'm not sure my worry is necessary. I THINK my clothes are clean--I've not noticed them less clean in my new F/Paykel than my old Whirlpool. So, IS my frustration unnecessary--doesn't the detergent clean AND kill germs??? Are my clothes not clean?? Would they make these clothing washing machines that don't get hot if they didn't clean??? I'm not smart enough to answer this but it still frustrates me that the water is warm when I select HOT. Am I a dirty girl??? :)

"Would they make these clothing washing machines that don't get hot if they didn't clean???"

I can only assume you are young. "They"...will make anything that sells. Has always been thus.

As to the cold/warm/hot issue with low-fill-volume machines, I've yet to encounter any salesperson who had any idea what I was talking about. They don't tell them about it in their sales classes. I pity the folks in northern Minnesota with long pipes between water heater and machine. Without a built-in heater, I'll bet those people never wash anything above room-temperature with the new machines.

If you're getting clean clothes with your set-up, don't worry about it. If you'd like hotter from time-to-time, take those occasional loads to a laundromat. If you're buying a new machine tomorrow.........get one with a heater.

chelbell, which F&P model did you get? GWL15? It's designed to save energy. When running a typical wash, it fills with water at the *selected* temperature (there are FIVE -- cold, warm/cold, warm, warm/hot, and hot) ONLY for the initial EcoActive shower wash phase. The agitated deep wash finishes filling with COLD water, resulting in cool water, or lukewarm at best. Note that the Perm Press cycle goes directly into the agitated deep wash phase at the selected temperature, but won't allow higher than WARM. There's a trick to get a full-fill HOT wash. Check your Instruction Manual for details on a procedure to clean the washer, and use that process for washing in HOT water if you feel a need.

If you have an IWL16, the general gist is the same, but it's more flexible for water temperatures and wash options than GWL15. I have a slightly older IWL12 and IMO it's a fantastic toploader.

Time for us to ask for help from Consumer Report? Is there a measure for "clean"? I can see them now, setting up old fashioned boilers over a fire while in another room a crew of people smashes clothes on rocks in a simulated stream (water buffalo optional).

A recirculation pump, while saving you water, is costing you energy. Water recirculates to keep hot water at the tap because as water sits in the lines, it experiences heat loss. You are replacing that heat loss with your water heater, so it's costing you energy -- either electricity or CNG/propane, depending on where you live. Depending on the mix of resources in your area and the costs, it may be smart to save water at the expense of energy or vice versa. If you live in the desert, having a recirculation pump is probably advantageous. Not so much if you live in an area that gets decent rainfall and has an ample water supply.

I definitely notice a difference in my clothing washing at higher temps, and I also like knowing that the temperature I set on the machine is the temperature I get. I never EVER wash anything in cold. Cold items get 85°F, warm washes get 105-120°F, and hot washes get anywhere from 140-170°F. Kitchen rags, garage towels, and dog items get the 205°F treatment.

Clothes do come out cleaner, it's more efficient to heat only the volume of water you need locally, and it's the best way I know of to avoid musty laundry issues. It's also important that your laundry be warm or hot for the entire length of the cycle, not just the incoming water. To maintain your wash temperature, you need a heater. Using my Asko as an example, each fill is approximately 1.5 gallons. The stainless outer drum, the stainless inner drum, and the clothing will rob that 1.5 gallons of heat very quickly if I did not have an on-board heater to maintain or boost temperatures.

CU has been aware of this issue for years but still does not mention it in their articles. I'm disappointed in them for this because the condition is ubiquitous among the machines in the marketplace and an important consideration for good, consistent cleaning results. Salespeople and consumers, however, remain ignorant for the most part. It should be part of everyone's purchase considerations but can't be if they don't know about it.

Dadoes -- I must have an even older model than you -- mine is a GWL11 and it was installed last August. Did they sell me the previous yr's model?? Hmmm.

I am doing a load of dog-bedding sheets and selected regular then adjusted the temp to hot. The agitating water was very lukewarm--before the final fill was added. That doesn't sound right does it?

My initial post addressed my confusion about 2 issues---the hot/warm/cold issue but also about soap doing the cleaning. Risking sounding young again, doesn't the soap do most of the cleaning and disinfecting? Guess I'm just wanting to relax about this HE washer and to stop hating my F/P--- by having some reassurance (from others who understand it all and like theirs?).
tks

The soap does do the cleaning.....in concert with the water. Water quality, temperature, agitation, and time are the other components. Softer water, hotter water, more agitation, and more time give better results but there are other considerations. Everybody likes clean clothes but they won't tolerate excessive fading or deterioration -- which is what happens with increases in temperature, agitation, and time. Some reasonable balance is the goal.

Normal washing temperatures plus soap do not "disinfect" anything. Disinfecting requires chemicals in the water (typically chlorine bleach, but there are others) or wash temperatures that almost nobody uses.

Basically, all we want is clean clothes. If you're getting that, rest easy. Everything's going to be OK.

I use cloth napkins instead of paper ones. For as many grease stains as they get, it is way too time consuming to pretreat them. I have a little cheapo Danby machine that goes up to 200F. Even with the prewash and extra Persil Megaperls detergent, all the grease spots do not come out at 160 degrees, and sometimes not even at 180 degrees. At 200 degrees, I am pretty much guaranteed spotless napkins, even those from prior lower temp washes that have gone through the dryer. True, some styles and colors have faded more than others, but since these are for everyday use, a little fading doesn't bother me. (FWIW, the mossy green faded more than the deep ruby red, and the crinkle red and white checks faded worst of all.)

I happen to think that fading comes from the washer, and shrinking (other than wool) comes from the dryer only.
With anything really, really soiled, IMHO hotter water is more effective and less smelly than using more detergent. For my elderly mother's needs, much cooler water is sufficient; she just needs to be on the watch for biofilm build-up.

I would be interested in seeing if a shorter, hotter cycle fades less than a longer one, and if a longer cycle at a lower temperature cleans just as effectively. Maybe I can try those napkins without a prewash.

I wasn't aware that pre-treating was time-consuming. I treat them, then let them sit on their own time. Talking just a few minutes, here. What do you do that is time-consuming?

"Is there a measure for "clean"? I can see them now, setting up old fashioned boilers ..."

Actually I vaguely remember my grandmother making soap and using a washboard alone with her "automatic" washing machine with wringer.

But I do remember clearly (for some reason) her talking to some of her lady friends telling them my mother's Maytag seemed to leave the white clothes dingy and therefore she would not want an automatic Maytag (TL).

So take that you TL lovers. Seems like TL have always had some non-believers. LOL.

I think I may have you by one generation. I'm 60. My 95-year-young mother remembers these things from the late '20's thru late '30's. Descriptions of "laundry-day, Monday" in western Kansas. The machine was run via belts from a gasoline engine. Water was heated on the stove -- the only hot water in the house. The entire basement area where the machines were became more-or-less un-breathable. Nobody had dryers. Everything hung outside -- summer and winter.

OMG! This whole conversation is too funny to me. I have a 240V Miele, cold fill only, the machine heats the water to the exact temp the cycle specifies, hot = 140, very warm = 120, warm = 105, etc. I wash utility linens on 155 =(?very hot?). Linens that I wash the floor with, clean up cat urine with, dust with, etc...I shudder to think what it would be like to wash them in a machine that says (hot)??? and was just tap hot, er cool. Nasty!!!

So funny, these euro machines that heat the water themselves to a specified temperature that we adults can understand! LOL :)

I have to chuckle, Nasty! ;>). Those poor people that have washed clothes without an on-board heater for the last 40-50-60 years. How did they ever get anything clean. They must have been dirty and nasty. And then you get the ones that buy a washer and dryer with every option available and put it on one setting and leave it there. How many people here do that. Or is everyone of your washes a profile wash.

I had an elderly aunt (well she wasn't always elderly) but she had 4 washing machines that she used. I guess that was her profile system.

Another Senior here. I "helped" in one of those basements every Monday. Mother filled the washer with hoses connected to the basement double-sink tap. She moved the wet clothes from the pre-soak sink (complete with built-in washboard) into the washer. It agitated then drained soapy water into one of the sinks.

Then Mother had to refill the washer with clean water for the rinse agitation and feed the clothes through the wriger while the rinse water was pumped out. Clothes then went into a laundry basket and were carried upstairs to be hung on a whirl-a-gig clothesline. (Or they were hung on lines in the basement in rainy weather -- where they eventually became...not dry, merely less wet.)

Tuesday was ironing day. That was also done in the basement with hand irons and on the mangle. My grandmother reluctantly gave up her stove-heated irons when electric steam irons came in. Virtually everything was cotton and had to be ironed.

Top-load, front-load, whatever! Hooray for the end of that drudge labor! My back hurts just remembering that trek up the basement stairs with a load of wet wash.

At age 50, my mother was engaged to be re-married to a man from her native New England. It all foundered when she asked if he wanted her to move her washer and dryer back East or to buy new ones there. He replied that if the sink-washboard-clothesline had been good enough for his mother and grandmother... Well, you get the picture.

asolo: Pretreating 20 cloth napkins with at least a half dozen fruit and grease spots of various sizes in various places on each IS time consuming and something I am not willing to do. That many napkins takes more than a few minutes. It is much easier to do an entire load of napkins with the heat cranked up. I DO pretreat clothing that needs it, and I agree that those only take a few minutes.

Good point (kitchenobsessed)! People may laugh, at my profile wash uber $$$ 240 volt machine, but I pretreat *nothing*, ever and everything including whites come out sparkling without bleach. Further, european frontloaders are in general more efficient that North American ones. The machine I have was introdued in 1993, and it still exceeds the 2007 Energy Star guidlines! No bleach, no pre-treatment, and my clothes last at least twice as long. Do the math on the cost of all the fabrics in your house, now double that, for 20 years, and you quickly will find, that the more expensive machines more than pay for themselves over the long haul just by increasing the longevity of your clothes. On top of that, most people will be on their second or third machine while mine is still plugging away. So is it all overpriced, hyped up machines??? You do the math...

>>>sssnetboy26) God forbid!

Not at all, but I prefer my to get rid of my clothes by my own choosing, not because my clothes shredder frayed, them, left stains on them, etc...I did not mean for certain things to last 20 years indeed!!! But things certainly last much longer, thereby saving you a lot of money. I also wash things I would not want to replace very often, like curtains and pima cotton sheets. Also I wash things I would never have washed before, like curtains, wool sweaters, etc... The whole point was, if you really think about it they pay you back in more ways than just the saved energy. UGH. Enough already! LOL ;)