COuld you consider shifting the mudroom door toward the powder room, so that you can run 24" cabs beside the dw and have the full width of the doorway for the aisle? Seems like a fairly simple and not-too-expensive adjustment that would solve a big problem. Not that it makes your layout 'easy', but it's a start?

rhome, just trying to understand (learn)... do you mean in the current kitchen or the new plan? If the new, would you keep the stove where she has put it? If I am reading it correctly, won't that put it at the end of a run, right next to the doorway you suggest?

I'm stumped; it looks like a tough kitchen to work with as far as remodeling, but rhome and others with more experience can surely help you get going in the right direction, shortkatie.

I was talking about the new plan, but I haven't made any decisions about the stove location until I can walk through the room without the jogs and pieced look, and access exits safely. But to answer your question, Jsweenc, I actually don't think I could live with the new stove location the way it is, and if the doorway moves, there won't be room without leaving it exposed on the end and I sure wouldn't go for that either...

It's an idea that I've thought about, but I'm not sure there's enough room to move the door over and have either the stove or the refrigerator still on that wall. Unless I keep the shallower counter? I'm just not sure there's the space. And, no, I don't want to leave the stove exposed on the right side, that's how the kitchen was originally and is why I built the skinny butcher block piece.

I agree that the new layout is awkward and imperfect, with the jogs and pieced look... Planning this kitchen is driving me crazy!

That is a tough space!
Can you show some of the side rooms to see if moving a doorway may be useful. ie a single doorway used for the hallway and the DR access??? or ???
Just a thought....

I've added a basic layout of the first floor to the album. The wall that runs between the kitchen and hallway and dining room is load bearing, and I'm afraid to mess with it, so I'm not sure that changing around those doorways is possible.

I'm playing around with a layout that doesn't involve moving the stove, I will post it too when I'm done...

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Plans

In the "possible kitchen" plan:

I think the open dishwasher will block traffic to the mudroom, powder room, and deck. Perhaps consider having, from left to right: 12" drawer, 24" sink cabinet, 24" dishwasher. Have to make sure the dishwasher door will clear the refrigerator. If you get a bottom freezer refrigerator, it may be that the open dishwasher won't block the cooler door. Also look into dishdrawers, they are less "in the way" during loading than conventional dishwashers because you simply slide the drawer closed (one motion), rather than slide the racks back and lift the door (2-3 motions).

Is a counter depth refrigerator impossible? With such a small space, every inch of additional space is valuable, and a recessed counter-depth will give you the most inches. If budget requires, I'd hunt for a used counterdepth off craigslist and then sell your full-sized one the same way, the net spend might be zero to a couple hundred bucks. The cabinet above the refrigerator should be flush with the front of the refrigerator, both for looks and to be more usable.

The microwave on the corner counter to the left of the refrigerator will eat up almost all of that space. If the sink is moved per above, that run of counter under the window plus the corner counter, is likely to be the main prep area. So I'd put the microwave somewhere else. How about making the upper cabinets to the left of the refrigerator 16" deep, using an over-the-range microwave, or making the upper cabinets above the pass-through 16" deep with a microwave shelf?

It is possible to fit a trash pullout under the sink, see morton5's kitchen. With space so precious, I don't think you should devote a full 12" cabinet to trash.

I'd consider using upper as well as lower 12" pantry cabinets in the mudroom. And making the door to the deck an out-swing door.

Speaking of the deck, I have a friend with a kitchen even smaller than yours, who makes fabulous food. You don't need a big, or even a medium, kitchen to make great meals. One thing he does is use his gas grill a lot. If you have room on the deck, and an appropriate climate, I would have a nice grill station there, with auxiliary burner (many grills have those now), a sink (so useful! and you have water/drain nearby in the powder room), a work table, a rain awning if needed. It can serve as a secondary kitchen and in the summer may even be primary.

Those are some great ideas. I'm not crazy about the idea of an over the range microwave, but with this small, awkward space, yes, every inch does count.

I have considered looking into a counter depth fridge. There's just two of us, and the one we have is really bigger than we need... Problem is, it's less than a year old (french door, bottom freezer), we got a great deal on it at a scratch and dent place, and it would be tough convincing my husband that something different might be a good idea. It is worth looking into, I know I'd like it better that way.

I also like the idea of switching around the sink and dishwasher, doing pullout trash under the sink, and using the 12" cab for other stuff. I think that really would work as we compost and recycle so much that a huge trash can isn't really needed, and I like the idea of having a larger unbroken run of counters.

Not really relevant, but funny, in the kitchen as it is laid out now the dishwasher door does block access to the mudroom and powder room. When the door is open, my dog will commando crawl under it to get to the other side.

How about something like this?

Why is the 3" filler pullout there? To give you an extra 3" (for a total of 15") to clear the range's oven door & handles....plus add 3" more to the Prep Zone. The Prep Zone space is 18" + 3" + 12" = 33" plus the 9" on the other side (33" corner susan...yes, I know a 33" susan isn't ideal, but compromises are needed to provide storage & workspace in this kitchen).

If you prefer, the 18" trash pullout could become a 21" cabinet (combine it with the 3" filler pullout)...assuming it would clear the oven door handles. Personally, though, I prefer the pullout instead of under the sink for two main reasons:

(1) You can have two larger bins...one for trash & one for recyclables (you would only be able to fit one small bin under a 30" sink...and that's assuming the plumbing is done to allow it...i.e., all plumbing on one side, not in the middle)

(2) Someone working at the sink won't have to move every time someone else needs to use the trash...which can be often during prepping & cooking. Additionally, this location is in the Prep Zone b/w the sink & range...again, an ideal location.

And the advantage of any pullout over a stand alone trash can...your commando dog won't be able to get into it! (Our female standard poodle figured out how to operate the foot pedal & get into our standalone trash can in our old kitchen...just like she figured out how to open our child gate!)

BTW...a 3" filler pullout has the same opening as a 6" face framed cabinet or a 4" to 4.5" frameless cabinet. It's simply hardware you install in a 3" space b/w cabinets...the hardware attaches to the walls of the cabinets on each side.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rev-A-Shelf Filler Pull-Outs - Base

Similar to Buehl's plan, the only way I thought this kitchen could work is to not have 2 L's. When I was lying in bed, considering options without benefit of having the layout to look at, one idea was to put the cleanup area under the pass through window...But I see now that would put the fridge where it crowds the doorway or the stove under the window.

I like the idea of this layout without two L's. I need to look into whether or not we can move/widen that doorway between the kitchen and mudroom. It used to be the back door to the house, before the mudroom and powder room were added on, so that wall is an exterior wall and I'm afraid it might be load bearing as well.

Most likely, or even quite certainly, it is load-bearing...but there are ways to frame a doorway properly in a load-bearing wall so that it isn't a problem, or usually any big deal.

I know you want to DIY this reno, but there might be a way to remove that short load-bearing stub wall btwn your kitchen & mud if you have room in the ceiling above it for a longer header. Do you know any structural engineers who could consult with you on this?

Hmm....ok. I was basing the removal on the fact that you removed part of it on your plan and ran the counter into the Mudroom. Since you did it, I assumed it was OK and that it wouldn't be much more work to open it up wider...

{{gwi:1599108}}

You might want to ask here or on one of the other Forums ("Building a Home" maybe?) about modifying load-bearing walls. Several people here have made it sound not too difficult...but I'm not in the business so I can't say for certain how difficult or expensive it is.

Here is a link that might be useful: Home Forums

I didn't remove the little stub wall in the plan, it's hard to tell but there's just shallow counters going up to it on either side, the wall is still there. The mudroom housed more of a separate pantry area than the continuation of the kitchen area.

I don't know any structural engineers, but I do know an architect who could probably give advice or point me in the direction of a structural engineer. I'm coming around to the fact that we won't be able to entirely DIY this project...

I hesitate to even post this one b/c it has several problems and I really don't like it...but here it is anyway. If you cannot modify the wall, maybe something like this will work.

For starters... You have a serious lack of counterspace
The refrigerator & sink are an issue.
You lack cabinet storage
Workflow isn't very good
You'll have to cross the kitchen and the main path through the kitchen to carry water & prepped food to/from sink & range...a particular issue when you have a pot of boiling water to dump.

You will have to close up the pass-through to the DR.

Thanks for the help! I'm going to seriously think about all of these plans and suggestions, and consider trying to move/ widen that doorway. It seems that there is no really great way to deal with this kitchen as it stands right now. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help.

I'm off to e-mail my architect friend and see if he might give me some advice too.

In Buehl's original plan, it seems like you could leave the back section of the wall for that doorway (a couple ft left of the dw) without messing up the rest? Of course, it would still require moving or widening the doorway toward the powder room...But having at least a post on the one end will give a header something to rest on.

Yes, she could...but it would eliminate the only decent size drawer base...but if it will make it easier to do the first, then I think it's worth it. You can store all kinds of things in 12" deep tall pantry shelves/cabinets...and I recommend that's what you do in the Mudroom...put in tall cabinets, not just open shelves below that will end up gathering all the dust & dirt that collects in a Mudroom.

You can use stacked IKEA upper cabinets to create that pantry.

"It seems that there is no really great way to deal with this kitchen as it stands right now. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help."

I think you can achieve an efficient, attractive kitchen for one well-organized person (or two very well-coordinated, skinny people) working with a carefully edited quantity of "stuff", where everything is close at hand and there is enough workspace for two large-ish projects (main dishes) and a couple of very simple projects (side dishes).

I mentioned this on another tiny kitchen thread, but recently I was in a small restaurant watching two cooks feed (appx 30?) diners with no more space than you have. Admittedly, the prep was done ahead of time and dirty dishes were dealt with in the basement. I've had kitchens similar in size to yours for much of my life, and I already noted my friend who makes great food in an even smaller kitchen.

So, take heart!

Just a couple random thoughts -
- How much do you want/need the pass-through, considering that the doorway to the dining room is right there?
- Perhaps you can get more workspace when you need it, but reclaim the floorspace when you don't, by using temporary counters. Meaning pull-out cutting boards, flip-up counters, cutting boards that fit on the sink/range and then are put away.
- Are you trying to make a kitchen for two cooks? Or just for one? That influences things a bit.

I can't really hope to give you any better ideas than those who have been doing this a long time, but I desperately want to take just a little bump from the DR to help the kitchen. Of course, without moving any walls, it's not really possible unless it's just more pantry storage, but just thinking in ideal terms if it ever becomes a possibility for you.

Are your ceilings 9'? If your kitchen is 10x10, that makes it almost a cube!

I'm not being helpful, but definitely cheering for you from the sidelines and continuing to think about it. I will say that any time we ask our GC about doing something with a load-bearing wall, he always says "That's no problem". But he's a GC and has been doing this for almost 60 years, so easy for him to say.

OK, just thought of one question to see if it is a possibility: can you at least turn the pass-thru into a doorway and make a small butler's pantry on the way to the DR? I don't know how big the DR is and maybe that would eat into that space too much.

The idea of tall cabinets in the pantry is heartening... I hadn't gotten to the exact planning stage there but I think it will make it easier to give up storage elsewhere. We are planning to use IKEA anyway, so that part should be easy.

I love the idea of pull out cutting boards, etc. My aunt and uncle live in an apartment in an old craftsman building that has those- and not only are they pull out work surfaces, but they have one spot where they pull out in stages and are meant to be used as stairs to reach cabinets that go all the way to the 12 foot ceilings. I've always loved that about their building (not that I'd plan on standing on my cutting boards or anything). A cutting board that fits over the sink or range is something that I could easily build myself, too.

For the most part it will be a one cook kitchen, we both cook, just not really at the same time, except for infrequent occasions when we entertain. That tends to happen during the summer, when we can spill out onto the deck and use the grill, too. (I love love love the idea of an outdoor kitchen. Maybe someday).

I do really like the pass through. Our actual windows have a lovely view of a neighbors vinyl siding, the pass through looks through the dining room and out it's window at another neighbors oak tree. It gives more of an open feel, I'd prefer not to give it up unless I can't make things work any other way.

The ceilings are 9'. It is indeed almost a cube.

In my dream world, I would open up the wall where the pass through is, borrow some space from the dining room, and have a peninsula there. It's almost a no brainer because the dining room is disproportionately large compared to the rest of the house. But that is a load bearing wall, and it really would be cost prohibitive. We have a small house on a very tiny lot and I'm just not sure we could get that back on resale.

couldn't you keep the inner wall partition in buehl's LO for the kitchen doorway to the mudroom? you'd lose a few inches in the 33" and 24" cabs. As for making the doorway wider, it surely had a header in it if it was prev an enter/exit door - wouldn't it? What would have been the reason to remove it when adding the mudroom/PR? it's probably still there and they just framed the sides in a bit more to give more wall room in the kitchen. did you guys put the mudroom on? if so, then maybe you know that answer.

I think that's a great LO for the space. i'd still probably put trash under sink since there's just the 2 of you. And unless you have a particular need for a movable cab, i'd put a shallow floor to ceiling cabinet there for food storage. A 12 or 15" cab can hold a ton of food supplies, even a few small appliances. I'd put drawers in all base cabs except the sink cab.

We didn't add the mudroom and powder room, but I think they might have originally been a back porch. The doorway between the kitchen and the mudroom is trimmed out just like all of the other exterior doors on the house- and there is an extra exterior door down in the basement that fits the gap, mortises and all. I guess they just turned the back porch into the powder room and mudroom and took off the door and stored it.

I'm sure there is a header up there, since it's a load bearing wall and all, but I'm certain they didn't do any framing to make the kitchen walls larger, it looks like they just left it alone.

Leaving the stub of wall up on the "top"...

(The 9" & 27" could be combined for a 36" cab, but I thought you might like some vertical tray storage. Or, you could take another 3" away from the 27" for a 24" + 12". Or some other combination.)

++++++++++++++++

I don't think I'd want to put a tall pantry cab to the right of the pass-through. It begins to closeup the refrigerator area...bringing back some of the issue you have right now at the Mudroom entrance. Plus, I think I like it more open...it makes your kitchen seem bigger than it is. It also allows you to have a rolling cart for for added workspace that could be stored over there when not in use but easily moved when it's needed or in the way.

However, if storage is more important, than I think a 12" deep pantry cab there would work if you eliminate the molding around the DR doorway (it eats up close to 3" on that wall)...but no rolling cart b/c there won't be a place to easily store it when not in use (it would be in the way of the refrigerator if it were stored under the pass-through b/w the tall pantry & the refrigerator wall.)

In case it's brought up anyone was wondering...recessing the refrigerator into the back wall won't be feasible since it's a load-bearing wall and you may already spending the $ to modify the wall elsewhere...I don't think the added 3" is worth the added expense of recessing into a load-bearing wall...but, YMMV.

*sigh* didn't proof read it first...in too much of a hurry!

In case anyone was wondering...recessing the refrigerator into the back wall won't be feasible since it's a load-bearing wall and you may already spending the $ to modify the wall elsewhere...I don't think the added 3" is worth the added expense of recessing into a load-bearing wall...but, YMMV.

I think bheul's plan from Fri, Jan 15, 10 at 22:38 looks promising.
In the main house plan, in the DR, there appears to be long wall to the right of the kitchen doorway. Maybe you can have a very long hutch, butlers pantry, or a long bank of 12" deep lowers and uppers here. That would help with storage of dishes, wine glasses , entertaining items etc. They make some nice looking kitchen cabinets now that can look beautiful in a DR.
It would be a few extra steps from the DW but may be worth it.

Maybe you have already done this but are you sure the small wall between the DR door and the pass through is a support wall? I only ask because I relied on the plans that were registered at the city. Needless to say, they were not correct. If you have not confirmed it, you might want to cut a small hole in the drywall or look at the basement to be positive.

It certainly is an intriguing space and I will keep my fingers crossed that you love the new kitchen- whatever you decide!

Shew... what a complicated room. I too want to break right through that DR wall & do an open penninsula. That DR looks absolutley huge- compared to the kitchen. It's not fair!
Good Luck Keep posting with your final decision. I think everybody's got good ideas, I'd definelty check into opening up that wall. I'd have nothing new to add unless you can open up.

This is probably better....a little more room b/w the sink and doorway and sink & refrigerator. You also won't be standing completely in the aisle to the Mudroom when at the sink. The prep area is still a good size at 39" (27" + 12") plus the corner & 9" to the range.

I like the latest of Buehl's plans but it seems to me that the refrigerator is turned the "wrong way" somehow. Why not turn the fridge with its back against the DR wall and shift the pass through over and make it an upside down L shaped opening or somehow combine it with the doorway to the DR with a column on a half wall? Or lose it altogether and make the opening a bit bigger?

Right now the refrigerator encroaches on the passthrough anyway. This is one of those situations where a fridge could hinge away from the corner IMO to get it close to the wall or a narrow tall could be between the fridge and the corner to allow it to open at least 90+degrees. (A 9"wide tall? Stacked 6" wide base column pullouts?)

Pity they put the powder room on the DR side and not on the opposite wall. Then you could have a U-shaped kitchen and not have to deal with powder room and backyard traffic traipsing through the kitchen. How are your DIY plumbing skills? Any chance you can flip this space or does this fall under "if wishes were fishes" thinking?

Or better yet, they should have tucked a powder room under the stairs (LR side) so that the kitchen space was bigger and more proportionate to the rest of the house.

Sorry, I'm not much help. Looks like buehl's plan is your best bet.

OK...refrigerator. It's a new FD model and won't be replaced. If you turn the Refrigerator, you'll need approx 12" of filler/cab b/w the wall & the refrigerator, so now we're talking about at least 48", 50-1/4" if you count the the 3/4" finished panel for the exposed side of the refrigerator + 1.5" of filler b/w the wall & 12" cabinet (assuming a cabinet for best utilization of space). That means moving the pass-through over a tad over 36"...you may as well remove it altogether since there's not enough room on that wall for all of that.

She really likes the pass-through so closing it off is not really an option (it's the only decent view). If she had her druthers, she would rather remove the wall & have a peninsula.

The location/orientation of the refrigerator gives her her view.

With most manufacturers,you *need approximately 4.5" to get the door on the wall side open to 90-degrees to provide access to the drawers on that side with limited pullout. With 6-7" to the wall side the arc on a 16.5" door would gain more opening. (1" filler+ 6" pullout + 33" refrigerator + 3/4" end panel if you want it = 40-->40 3/4, not 50-1/4.) (and the *minimum required, 4.5" + 33 = 37.5") Either would involve moving or opening up the passthrough, yes.

Tall pullouts of 12" or 15" between the wall and the fridge are great if you have the room. I never have room for it. Design kitchens in houses that are 12' wide, and you will understand why:)

I like the idea of shifting the mudroom door, to allow a full-depth counter to run all the way to the mudroom wall.

If you are unable to move any doors, here is a possible layout. The only house change is to move (not lose!) the passthrough, which lets the refrigerator face toward the sink wall, and allows 36" of counter and drawers next to the refrigerator.

Starting at the mudroom door, upper left of the kitchen, and going clockwise:
- 8" deep open shelves or spice cabinets or shallow pantry cabinets. I don't know if IKEA makes anything that would fit here. It needs to be between 25" and 30" wide.
- a filler piece (dimension depends on the preceding piece) with more open shelves and a cut-off corner, which is necessary to give a path 34" wide (measure the diagonal). IKEA makes these, though you might have to cut it narrower.
- 24" dishwasher with a pull-out cutting board above it. I am not 100% sure the board is possible, depends on dishwasher height and desired counter height. The board is shown partly extended. It will give a lot more working space right at the sink, if you can do it. Note the open dishwasher will not block traffic, not completely anyway.
- 24" sink base cabinet. I still think you should fit trash under the sink. This is going to be a one-person kitchen, usually the only person needing to accessing the trash will be standing at the sink.
- 12" pull-out storage base cabinet. I don't really know what this is, was looking for a 12" wide base cab in the IKEA website, and it looked handy. Maybe good for cookie sheet storage. If you could find a 3-drawer or 4-drawer base cabinet that is 12" wide, that would be better. This is likely to be your main prep area, ideal to have drawers for your knives, tools, prep supplies.
- 36" corner cabinet w/ lazy susan. Above that, 36" upper cabinet. I think that will be your main dishware and glassware storage.
- 30" range. Above that, microwave and a bit of upper cabinet to hide the ductwork. I don't love OTR microwaves but space is precious, best not to give away prime upper cabinet space for a microwave.
- Filler piece with open shelves. I think oils, sauces, salt, pepper would go well here - in decorative glass containers, not the ugly original bottles!
- 34" aisle width (measure the diagonal) for people walking to/from hall or dining room. And a bit of wall for the fire extinguisher.
- 12" base cabinet with shelves (I labeled it "drawers" but I don't think IKEA makes that?). If you can fit a 15" base cabinet here, IKEA does have that with drawers which would be much better. All depends on how much aisle width you want/need.
- 18" base cabinet with shelves. I've drawn another pullout cutting board here. These two cabinets give you 36" of working counter - enough for a second cook in a pinch, or extra space for plating food or big projects or baking - but more important, they give you more drawer storage. I would mount a pot rack above the passthrough and hang my pots there, or anyway find space for them other than in the cabinets.
- Refrigerator, 35" wide and 33" deep.
- 4" filler to allow refrigerator to open. If that's not enough, then everything gets skooched over another inch. Are there clever broom storage things that can go here? I don't know.

Last pic with a person for scale.

Oh, two things I forgot to mention.

I originally suggested having the dishwasher to the right of the sink for a longer prep counter run between sink and range. The reason I didn't do that in the layout above, was because I thought the pull board would give that extra space and create a handy "cockpit" or "U" around the prepping cook. If the pullout is not possible, then I'd have the sink and dishwasher swapped.

I also left 4" clearance to doorway edges, in case you have wide trim or just prefer a less crowded look. You could choose to reduce that clearance to, say, have deeper shelves by the mudroom door.

Johnliu, looks brilliant to me.

My two questions:
- You said a bit of an upper cabinet to hide the ductwork. That implies functional to me, rather than end panel. Is that what you intended? If so, were you picturing a pullout? How would it work to have the open shelves for oils and spices here if it's too narrow for a pullout? The lower shelves could be used for something else you might find on open shelves (not anything too fragile), including baskets to hold particular items (silverware, maybe? Save the other drawer space for other things?)

- This question is for shortkatie - How is the view with the pass-through moved over?

- I also liked the idea of tucking a pantry (cabinet or walk-in) into the corner of the DR with the long wall next to the kitchen. It wouldn't block the sight lines. That plus mudroom storage would give you lots more options!

- Oh, one more, OT, for johnliu: What does your acronym that you have used elsewhere mean -- SWMBO or something like that (can't remember the letters or order but I'm sure you know what I mean). Just curious.

I'd like to see those layouts in 2-D with every aisle labeled...in particular the ones by the doors. Additionally, the dimensions around the pass-through. The last thing you need is to spend time & $$ and not really fix the narrow access problem. 2-D layout can give you more technical information that 3-Ds do not...even with that "person" in the pics (who looks cramped), the 2-Ds give us a better idea of what's really there.

If the aisles all work and they're OK with moving the pass-through (it shouldn't affect the view too much since the window is quite wide in the direction of the stairs & hallway)...then these would also be considerations. If I had time to do it I would do it for you, but since JohnLiu already has them in his system, it should be pretty easy for him to produce them.

Other considerations... Even Palimpsest says 6" - 7" of filler is necessary, not 4", so you need to add another 2" to 3" to the filler. Use the higher # for the "worse case scenario" so no plans are made with "best case", especially in this case of such a difficult space.
Remember that an open DW door will stick out approx 27" into the aisle. Drawers, if full-extension, will stick out 22" or so.
Remember to have sufficient "safety" around the range, especially if it's at a doorway, and particularly well-used/busy ones. Ideally 24", but with the limited space, I would try for at least 15". 15" should be sufficient space to keep handles over the counter and not hanging off into the aisle as well as not be as dangerous for people walking by for various reasons...
(1) grease splatters/steam/smoke, etc.,
(2) walking by w/packages & elbows sticking out all over & bumping things on the range or knocking something off the counter and onto the range (you know what it's like when you come in w/your arms full for groceries or other paraphernalia), and
(3) with a narrow aisle right there at the Mudroom door (at least it looks narrow in the 3-D view, but need 2-D w/labels to know) you don't want to force people to veer into the Cooking Zone to get around the wall run.
With the bulk of the refrigerator right there at the pass-through, I highly recommend building it in to at least "pretty" that bulk up since it's going to be the first thing seen when you walk toward the kitchen from the LR & Front door and when you look in from the DR.
Lastly, remember that whatever depth cabinet you have, you will also need to take into consideration the countertop overhang...usually 1-1/4" to 1-3/4" (I usually average it at 1-1/2"). So, a 24" cabinet will actually mean accounting for approx 25-1/2".

I didn't read the entire thread, but just wanted to comment about modifying that exterior load-bearing wall between the mudroom and the kitchen.

IF you were talking about opening up say, and additional 5 feet, then it would start to get complicated/pricey. But If you are talking about simply enlarging the doorway oepning by another foot or so, I do not think it'll be a big deal at all. Expecially since you have such high ceilings! Basically you will be removing the multiple studs on one side of the doorway, moving them over, and replacing the header with a bigger one. With all that height you can just make it wider (like multiple 2x12s instead of 2x8s or whatever...)

When my DH and I bought our first house, we added a doorway in an exterior wall. There was no GW then (or maybe there was and we just didn't know about it :)) and we were neophyte DIY-ers. No one told us it was a difficult thing, so we just got a DIY book, read up on it, and built it, including hand-framing a door slab. When we sold the hose 10 years later that door still worked just fine!

So the piint is, its probably not really a big deal to widen that opening if it solves your layout problems. Same with the DR wall...

I assume you will be DIY0ing new electrical, too? Because there may be electrical wires in that part of the wall you're considering removing, that will need to be relocated..

I was out of town all day yesterday... I'm once again a little overwhelmed by all of the wonderful help!

To answer a couple of questions, the view with the pass through moved over would still be great. The vinyl siding view from the actual window has me thinking about putting in stained glass.

I actually already do have a long hutch on that dining room wall, an antique we got for a steal when we first moved in. Right now it has all of my everyday dishes as well as wine glasses, fancy dishes, etc. Ideally there would be space in my kitchen for everyday dishes, because I find it frustrating having them in the other room. But hey, I've already lived with it for five years... There is also a window seat in the dining room with drawers under it where I store all of my table linens, so those don't have to take up space in the kitchen, which is nice.

I do know that the wall between the kitchen and dining room is load bearing, based on the view from the basement- six 2 x10's stacked together resting on concrete piers. I'm just showing my ignorance here, but would moving the pass through in that wall be doable?

I really wish they'd built the addition differently with the powder room on the other side. Just like it would have been awesome for the kitchen to have been a little bigger and the dining room a little smaller. What were they thinking back in 1926?

New electrical isn't a problem for us, we've done some stuff ourselves before and I have an uncle who is an electrician who can help with anything difficult.

I heard back from my architect friend, and he said that just widening that doorway may not need a structural engineer "since it is only a house". He recommended getting several estimates to widen the doorway, and then deciding if it would be worth it.

Thanks again for everyone taking the time to help!

Here is the layout in 2D w/ dimensions labeled.

I found that I'd drawn the refrigerator too large (had 35'' W and 33'' D, while it is actually 33'' W and 31'' D) so I corrected that which made the filler 6''. It could be wider, maybe that would make it useful, that just narrows the aisle a bit.

I have only 8'' between the range and the end of the counter. If that is not enough for safety, you could extend the counter a bit - there is another 4'' to the doorway.

I've drawn the dishwasher door open. And the pull-out boards partly extended.

The counters are 26" deep. I wonder if deeper might not be better, to give more room. I drew little "helper counters" along the backsplash, which could be discarded.

I noticed there is something odd in the measurements in shortkatie's original plans. The dimensions of the "window side" of the kitchen do not equal the dimensions of the "dining room side". I'd built the model off the former so I just left it - but that could be a problem?

As for moving things - if you can move the door to the mudroom, as shown in buehl's plans, that would be very good. This plan is still short on drawer storage on the sink side.

I wouldn't think moving the pass-through should be a problem even if the wall is load-bearing. Not sure about the view though.

"Even Palimpsest says 6" - 7" of filler is necessary, not 4", so you need to add another 2" to 3" to the filler. Use the higher # for the "worse case scenario" so no plans are made with "best case", especially in this case of such a difficult space. " :)

Yep, yep, even the promoter of tight tolerances realizes you have to be able to get the door open :)--It helps, in my kitchen, to lean slightly on the oven door to get the drawer around the corner open all they way, thats how close it is. But those are the choices one makes in a kitchen thats under 60 square feet.

I have a particular bias against the massive bulk of the typical refrigerator when the reality is, that many people still have small kitchens that won't get any bigger. The industry is coming around a bit, but when I did my first kitchen (about 40 sq feet) I had two options: Sub-Zero, or a featureless apartment fridge. (I spent $400, guess which). The current owners have replaced the fridge with a SS featureless apartment fridge which is so deep it protrudes in front of the sink)

Anyway, my concern with the fridge in this kitchen was that it seemed turned the wrong way (to me), And, while it provided a view OUT of the kitchen without modifying the passthrough, the view IN to the kitchen from the DR would show the side of the fridge or a panel + the side.--Neither a natural focal point in my book. Add to the bulk of that area 12"-15" of tall pullout and that is a big unbroken mass in that corner.

So I realize that I balk against something that makes a lot of sense (plenty of room between the fridge and the wall), but when the manufacturer's specs say this fridge will work against the wall if you have X inches-- (I found as little as 2-1/2" with most around 4-1/2")--I think that this should be taken at its face value, and utilized *if it makes sense. And in a very small kitchen, I think it can make sense.

The link below shows it.
It is a little expensive but you might like the extra storage.
You mentionned "Ideally there would be space in my kitchen for everyday dishes, because I find it frustrating having them in the other room."
Since you might be adding 12 " deep shelving in the mudroom as a pantry, maybe you can re-think the storage in the DR and swap out a few things that would be more convenient closer to the kitchen/DW...
I also have seen some different temporary work zones here on GW. I will try to find the link.
They basically were a 25-30" long (wood) that hinged on the side of the cabinet and then could be lifted up so the counter extended. (supported by legs on the far side) Perhaps if you do not do open shelves to the right of the stove, you could have one of those for big cooking/entertaining days. It would lift up and block the hallway door so you would need to travel thru the DR and LR to get to the stairs.

Here is a link that might be useful: rev-a -shelf 6 inch pull-out

As to the measurements not adding up, that was my bad in rushing when I labeled things with Sketchup- I let the text tool do it automatically and it just used the measurements that didn't include the trim, and I didn't notice. The measurements from the window side are correct- and I will go in and fix the ones on the dining room side that are messed up.

I'm going to go locate my fridge manual and find out the exact space needed on the side. Something I that occurred to me when looking at johnliu's layout, with the pass through moved, and considering that little space to the right of the fridge, was that a folding kitchen cart could store nicely there and could be brought out when countertop space is really in demand. It could also be rolled outside and used by the grill. Has anyone used one of these? Are they decent?

I really like the idea of the flip up counter next to the stove, too.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fold up kitchen carts

I searched around and found this idea. If you or DH are handy this looks like it could be useful. Build it on the small wall between the hallway and DR door. Build it as long as it needs to be to reach the open shelves on the stove side. Position it at the height where it can use the open shelves as it's support. The pull down edge will sit on top of the open shelves by the stove. You can build it 3/4/5 inches deep and use it for spices.....
I am not a woodworker so you would need to research the proper hinges required for the weight but....
I think it could work!

Here is a link that might be useful: scoll down to 3rd project,, open bar

It occurred to me that the microwave could go above the passthrough. Depends on the height of the passthrough, the height of the katie, and finding pot storage elsewhere.

This shows a horizontal glass door cabinet there, but sort of suggests the idea.

Here is another thought, the upper cabinet turned sideways and cut down to a 8'' depth. i don't know how the IKEA cabinets are built or if that is feasible.