"My BIL is a litigator.
And a dick."

Yep, you nailed it SC.

Daisy, I would say your BIL has completely crossed the line. At some point I would let it quietly be known that should that type of behavior continue, you will not be participating in events when he is in attendance. It would likely hurt your in-laws but that absolutely is not tolerable. If nothing else, for the sake of your children learning not to tolerate such things. That is emotional abuse and is completely not acceptable. My heart bleeds over such terrible, terrible behavior. Family peace is a very important thing but is not such an important thing that people have to sustain abuse to keep that peace.

This post was edited by tishtoshnm on Thu, Dec 6, 12 at 15:08

The JA in my life is my brother. He took what my late father did just a little bit (the political stance) and took it up a dozen notches. And it's now nothing but nastiness from him-about politics, minorities, women, handicaps, you name it. If a certain radio commentator says it-he'll take it as gospel. Call him on it and he says he's just joking.

What really gets me is that most of our family puts up with it so politely, yet in private they squirm. I don't stand for his cr*p and I've called him on it in public. Yes, I've made a scene but I knew someone needed to let him know his behavior is sickening. Naturally he tried to make it seem as is I was the problem, but it did diffuse him and everyone was able to enjoy the rest of the evening in peace.

He's not going to change-he definitely has narcissitic personality disorder and has alienated even his own son-yet he denies there is a problem. His wife is so emotionally downtrodden she goes along with him. I just don't even engage him any more. If we're together I ignore his a-hole traits and try to steer the conversation to something we do share views on (usually a TV show or a particular band).

My advice for the BIL bully is to say aloud "Jim, you're being a bully and we would all like you to stop that right now". He'll sputter & spout but if you make it clear it's the collective group thatfeels that way-not just you & the victim-it might shut him up. Do it every time-consistently and eventually he will realize he doesn't have an audience to shock or lead.

KSWL, In my particular case, the JAs were members of my parent's generation so it would have been considered improper for me to speak to the JAs in any critical way. I think that generation has a completely different view of the family...one that includes and accepts all no matter what.

"He does know and he doesn't care. As far as he is concerned, we are the ones with the problem because we are "sensitive". He has made that very, very clear. "

To which, my response would be (now that I'm older and wiser and have learned the hard way):

"So now that you know exactly how sensitive I am and how much your comments hurt me, you'll stop making them, right? Because I'm sure you wouldn't choose to hurt me deliberately. What kind of person would that make you, right?"

There's nothing a narcissistic bully hates more than being made to look bad in public. And by pointing out clearly and plainly and publicly that any further comments will be recognized as deliberately mean, he's prevented from minimizing them with his 'just joking' excuses.

pesky1 hit it on the nail. These people are nothing but bullies and for me that is about the lowest you can go in terms of a social-being. They are not physical bullies but rather verbal bullies and they have been allowed to get away with it. Bullies are inherently unhappy with some facet of their life and have often been ridiculed in a part of their life as well.. They are to be pitied and you will never change them. You can only refuse to put yourself in their presence but unfortunately a lot of emotion and angst is wasted on these people.

Sweeby, that's a good response. My only hesitation in using it would be that in doing so, an admission of sensitivity is being made. My family members and I don't feel like we're being sensitive; rather, JA's comments are beyond the bounds of decency and consideration towards others, and we're put off by that. That's not being "sensitive", that's simply responding to maliciousness and bullying as any normal, rational person would. But that's also mincing words, and I understand what you're saying. Might be worth a try, just to gauge his reaction.

Oh my, this certainly reminds me of my MIL. For about 28 years she managed to ruin almost every holiday and birthday for all of us. Two years ago she stopped talking to me and coming to my house ..... the very best two years of my life!! I would never have cut her out of my life but am so glad she did it to me.

I am pretty sure things have not turned out the way she wanted though. I was the one who told hubby to phone his mother, I was the one who included her in family events. Now she is on the outside.

Now that I am removed from her toxicity, I have to wonder why we put up with it for so long. She is a bully and the times I did stand up to her or question her, she did back down. She quit talking to me because she overheard me telling my son not to take her passive agressive bs to heart. Oops. LOL

Make this Christmas the one where you make a stand, either by confronting them or avoiding them. You will be so glad you did.

Hey I just thought of something. How about you print out a bunch of birthday cards with Happy Birthday wishes by Pal with each card printed having a different future year . A Happy Birthday card for 2013's birthday, 2014, 2015 and so on! She could never ever accuse you of being LATE again...send them all now. hehehee Ok so many of us probably wouldn’t really do this. But you have to admit it is a fun thought.

Oh poo I just hit the wrong post to post on. Please
Disregard the above!!!

In relation to this post, sometimes I think I'm lucky to live so far away from some of my family.

SunnyCottage, thank you so much for understanding. It's already making my Christmas a lot better.

But I can envision my JA purposely filling the pot because, among the other character flaws, he also seems to really enjoy throwing around the fact that he has a lot of money.

My husband's BIL, like your JA, would purposely fill the pot, partly for the same reason and partly because he takes great pride in being the self-named black sheep of the family. He brags about the fact that he's not liked.

Tishtoshnm, I agree completely. I don't want my children learning to tolerate that kind of behavior, and my daughter doesn't need to see her mom passively standing by while she and someone she cares about is being abused. I had no choice. And I can honestly say that my children and I became better people by going through this.

There's nothing a narcissistic bully hates more than being made to look bad in public. And by pointing out clearly and plainly and publicly that any further comments will be recognized as deliberately mean, he's prevented from minimizing them with his 'just joking' excuses.

Sweeby, I've tried something similar. It doesn't work. Like blfenton said, he is to be pitied and we will never change him, we can only remove ourselves from his presence. If, as pesky1 said, the collective group would make it clear his behavior is unacceptable, then perhaps that would work. But my in-laws have a viewpoint like what Fun2BHere described, and the collective group is not going to say anything.

SunnyCottage, you are so right that these types of people are to be pitied. I'm getting to that place emotionally, where I feel pity as much as anger. Thank you for your good wishes for the holiday. I think we will have a wonderful new holiday tradition of traveling.

I hope all of you have a wonderful, wonderful holiday, completely JA free, with all the joy, peace and good will you deserve.

I second that, may we all have a JA free holiday!

Sweeby's suggested response is perfect - just change the wording a little and you won't be agreeing with him about being sensitive.

" So if you believe that I am that sensitive and you know how much your comments hurt me, you'll stop making them, right? Because I'm sure you wouldn't choose to hurt me deliberately. What kind of person would that make you, right?"

Do people who deliberately hurt others really care what kind of person they are?

"KSWL, In my particular case, the JAs were members of my parent's generation so it would have been considered improper for me to speak to the JAs in any critical way. I think that generation has a completely different view of the family...one that includes and accepts all no matter what."

Fun2bhere, you are a nicer person than I am. In kswl universe, just because a JA is an old JA doesn't give immunity from criticism or ostracism. Thanksgiving 2008 (after Obama was elected to his first term)an older (about 70 years old) cousin kept asking me what I thought about Acorn and generally trying to stir up anti-Obama sentiment. Finally I said that I didn't know enough about it to have an opinion, but asked what Rush Limbaugh had told him to think or say. That was the end of the conversation and I haven't seen them since ... no great loss.

OMG, I love that line - what is Rush Limbaugh telling you to think now?

I will tuck that one away for future use.

LOL! Perfect!

kswl, Really? I've seen that particular comeback on Hot Topics for years. Old news.

Well I have a party to go to tomorrow and my neighbor who seems to have a lot of hate will be trying to divide the party with his ramblings as he does every year. Every year I have to stop him in his tracks by saying... What is Madcow telling you to think now? The thing is that the party is a mix of all types of people but even those who voted the same way get sick of him. He is a highly intelligent man with a few masters and higher but couldn't become a deacon due to failing the psychological test. He's big and pushy and arrogant. When he was married (to my friend) he used to grab her food and flush it down the garbage disposal when he got mad at her. The people who invite him do not really like him at all but they know he will come anyway. Last year he slammed into me and ran over my foot with his big 375lb self so he could get ahead of me to put his arm around a single lady in the neighborhood. She didn't like it but he didn't care because he was hoping I would tell his ex-wife he had a new squeeze. He was born with no eye brows and has no hair, mix that with his fair skin and big size along with the pink tinge he takes on when drinking...well he does resemble a certain barn yard animal.

Yes, olliesmom, really. Apparently there are lots of people out there who have to deal with " ditto head" relatives. That shouldn't be news to anyone :-)

And this thread wasn't supposed to be political.

It never fails. And 99% of the time it's the same side that lifts the lid off "neutrality".

Rush Limbaugh is a talking head, but it could go either way. "What is [insert name of left/right-wing talking head] telling you to think now?"

Sable, I guess if I was Switzerland I would have described the encounter this way:

Thanksgiving 2008 (after a certain head of state was elected to his first term)an older (about 70 years old) cousin kept asking me what I thought about an organization that politician had worked for years ago and generally trying to stir up anti-head-of-state sentiment. Finally I said that I didn't know enough about it to have an opinion, but asked what his favorite talking head/pundit had told him to think or say. That was the end of the conversation and I haven't seen them since ... no great loss.

If this suits your sensibilities better I am happy to go with the no details version.

SunnyCottage - Are we related? I think your guy IS my a$$hole BIL. This one thinks he is the Patriarch. This one has told off-color jokes with his granddaughter in the room. Has used the 'n' word. Hates gays. It goes on and on. Two weeks ago he walked into our home, invited for a family dinner, and said to DH, "When are you going to get out there and rake your leaves?" But the in-laws just sit quietly. I feel like I cannot speak up without upsetting FIL, whom I dearly love.

Thanks! I feel much better just writing this. When I first read your post I was incredulous. There is another one out there! Looking forward to the Christmas show he puts on.... But my candidate just got re-elected.... Hang in there, and I'll raise my glass to you!

-Donna

And, you DID notice, didn't you, that the "Left" called Rush Limbaugh, well, Rush Limbaugh.

And the "Right" called someone A NAME... not their name. A Name.

A derogatory name.

And, I'm not certain, since I would sooner shoot myself than watch Rush Limbaugh, but I'm willing to bet that the Madcow NAME Calling came from Rush Limbaugh? Ya think? ;)

And even more ironically, proves the point about repeating toxic waste...er, I mean talking points (In reality, AKA A Dog Whistle) via Faux News, yes? LOL. Too funny.

Just saying.

E

Donna - it's mind-boggling to think there could possibly be a number of these JAs who are cut from the same cloth, isn't it? To be honest, I also felt better just getting my thoughts out in writing and venting about my horrid relative. I hope your holidays are a stress-free as possible, "JA in the house" notwithstanding.
;-)

EMM what is so shocking? RL is the talking head of the right and MAD is a talking head from the left.If names are going to be thrown around in a bad way don't expect the rest of us to put up with it.

Would someone clue me in as to who Madcow is?

That's the unfortunate nickname given to MSNBC's Rachel Maddow.

And really, is bickering necessary? Aren't we better than this? Surely we aren't JAs! ;-)

Rachel Maddow is a far lefter like Rush is a far righter.
They both manipulate facts in their favor. Once in a while one or the other might speak a bit of truth.

"EMM what is so shocking?"

Nothing. Nothing the Right does shocks me anymore.

Although, where in my post did you "get" that I was shocked?
On the contrary, I believe my point was that, once again, it was the Right who started with the Name Calling.
(See below)
Obviously, I can't speak for you, but what I saw was Rush Limbaugh's name mentioned. Nothing more, nothing less.

"RL is the talking head of the right and MAD is a talking head from the left."

RL is Rush Limbaugh...exactly how he was referred to. That is his name.

MAD? Madcow wasn't derogatory enough for you? Hhmmmm..what does that say?
MAD or MADCOW is NOT Rachel Maddows given name.

"If names are going to be thrown around in a bad way don't expect the rest of us to put up with it."

Hey, all I did was point out the obvious....you started the NAME CALLING. I stated that the name calling came from the Right. It did. Parroting Rush. Rush Limbaugh. (notice, that is his name) Deal with THAT.

Anyway, who really cares about those names?
There are only two "names" that really matter.

Winner.

And.

Loser.

I know which one is doing the name calling.

E

Rachael Maddow is a self confessed progressive liberal. She is a graduate of Oxford, attended Stanford and is a Rhodes scholar. Suggesting she is the opposite of Rush is exactly correct.

Sunny I apologize to you for this happening on your post. But I'm just not putting up with comments from those that assume that just because they voted in a certain way they are so superior that their comments should simply be over looked by the offended. What makes it worse is that then their chums feel it's perfectly ok too. Now if I was to do the same thing I would have hundreds of people on my back because THAT is considered fashionable not rude. So if I am going to be one of the few to keep the playing field fair so be it. I am frankly getting fed up with people assuming that anyone who did not vote the same way is a far righter and a Rush lover. I have my own mind thank you very much. Excluding maybe those at the furthest end of each spectrum we all have a lot in common on many social issues. When you come right down to it (at least for me) it's the timing of all the spending v.s priorities that set me apart. That's it! Stop lumping us all together and coming across so hateful! Broaden your mind!

"Do people who deliberately hurt others really care what kind of person they are?"

Good point... But many times, they DO care very much about how others perceive them. If their nasty comments are driven by a need to be 'witty' and 'superior', then restyling them as simply mean can sometimes stop them. (Not always, as was said. It rarely worked on my Ex -- except in PUBLIC.)

" I don't want my children learning to tolerate that kind of behavior, and my daughter doesn't need to see her mom passively standing by while she and someone she cares about is being abused."

Good for you Daisy! That is SO important! Part of the reason I put up with as much verbal abuse as I did (from Ex.) was because I had grown up watching my mother put up with verbal abuse from my Dad... (Sorry Dad - but it was.)

"Do people who deliberately hurt others really care what kind of person they are?"
"Good point... But many times, they DO care very much about how others perceive them. "

I do like your approach. But if these JA's cared so much about appearances then why would they be such JA's in public.

I think some of them can't have someone telling them what they can or can not do, let alone if it's a female. Then there are the JA's who become polite in public when they are real JA's in private.

I see people are insisting on getting in their political digs in spite of the subject.

Jterriynn, I drive a car and listen to the radio and that is how I know that Rush Limbaugh is a self proclaimed, right wing spokesperson. My relative was actually following, word for word, RLs "instructions" on how to deal with people post election. I heard them. That is no value judgment, but merely information. He is right wing, and he did tell his followers to ask those questions. I'm not giving my own opinion of whether his politics are good or bad. They are, however, undeniably right wing. I don't think he would dispute that, nor would anyone else.

Otoh, I don't own a television and dont watch it, and have never seen Maddow. I have never heard her, and have no idea what she says. I have heard of her, and know she is considered a left wing commentator, but I don't know that objectively.

My point in making the above clear is that I was not trying to be snarky in my identification of Limbaugh in the example I gave above. The incident fit the parameters of the problem described by the Op and that is why I used it--- NOT to make a political statement. There are rude people the length and breadth of the political spectrum who are passive- aggressive in their political discussions at family events. The common denominator of such people is their lack of social skills and impulse control, not their political
beliefs.

Hi kswl and thanks for clarifying. I wrote the parallel story about my neighbor Dave to try and get people thinking about what seems too often times to be one sided political correctness. My story is 100% true except I did not use the name of Rachel Maddow in any form when addressing him. Dave is real and real annoying to all and yes I'm going to the party. I wanted to see if people would be offended by a comment about someone from the left being accused of not having a mind of their own and only using talking points from a left wing media person. I wanted to see if anyone would be flabbergasted that a lefty could be annoying at a party with his politics. I wanted to see if I could use the name Rachel Maddow in any form and not get attacked when it was perfectly acceptable for others to use Rush in derogatory insinuations.
I didn't do any of this to be mean I just did it to bring attention to something that could otherwise keep us divided or make us divided. I'm sick of that CR@P.

Jterrilynn, whenever we are tempted to get a tv I remind myself of how non objective most tv news really is---- not to mention the various commentators of every political stripe. That's why we stick to newspapers!

Jterrilynn - I admire your ability to listen to both sides of the issue and to keep an even keel and a sense of humor. Personally, I can only take five minutes of Rachel, but then I can also only take five minutes of Rush. I completely agree with your post at 19:03; in fact, that feeling is why I wrote my post upthread. Enough already!

I had a longer post written about family political obnoxiousness (about a relative-in-law who, knowing I am Jewish and lived in Israel for many years, decked out her home in Nazi cr@p, including a full-size swastika flag, and then invited unsuspecting DH over to see it. And then wondered why we never spoke to her again.) Computer froze on "submit" and later, DH inadvertently took us off the internet, so lost the post. Am reposting a briefer version now. But in the meantime I've been reading the threads on various forums about the GW making our posts accessible to the social media. That doesn't sit well at all. There's a reason why some of us only post online on the GW and don't do social media. We like at least the illusion of privacy! When I think of things that I've read, e.g., on Hot Topics...Oy!

Sable- that is jaw-dropping. I don't think that my Neanderthal BIL would even think of something as sick as that. OMG. Reading these posts has put him in perspective - he is just a bully.

On Christmas we have a large family gathering and DD keeps my wine glass full. That works for me, keeps me quiet, LOL.

An old and dear friend, who has the in-laws-from-hell once gave me her holiday coping tip: sit back and watch as though you are watching a play. Everyone has a part to play and watch them play their part. I have found that it works, and it is actually fun, in a sick way. It is lk,e watching Cat on a Hot Tin Roof"...

Donnamp, occasionally my tactic is to pretend I am a visiting anthropologist cataloging unusual tribal behavior---- and it works, to a point. Once someone starts engaging me the game is off. I don't have a high tolerance for bullying----which is all it really is, once you strip the political context from the situation.

I wanted to see if people would be offended by a comment about someone from the left being accused of not having a mind of their own and only using talking points from a left wing media person. I wanted to see if anyone would be flabbergasted that a lefty could be annoying at a party with his politics. I wanted to see if I could use the name Rachel Maddow in any form and not get attacked when it was perfectly acceptable for others to use Rush in derogatory insinuations.

And what you found out, jterrilynn, is that the only part of your story anyone here took offense to was the derogatory name-calling you chose to employ that Rush Limbaugh is so famous for. If you had just used her given name, people would have read it and moved on.

No gray that is not what I found. One could try to distract and make that the focus though if they choose not to address the real issue.

jterrilynn, just know you aren't alone, and I could tell that kswl "meant" to put the jab in there about Rush. Others know it too, but, don't want to ruffle feathers here, and, like you said, will just let it pass on by. I am glad you stood up and voiced your opinion, as in the past, a lot of times I blow it off.

sable, yes it is always the same people that rear their ugly head on this forum. They call it bullying when someone says something about it at their dinner party, but, they can state a comment on here, and it's not suppose to be bullying.

Personally, I think the word bullying in regards to politics is ridiculous.

I believe kwsl's family member KNEW he'd get a rise out of her, and he did, it worked!

I wish everyone a wonderful holiday with no rude relatives, friends or hangers-on spoiling their fun---including those whose mind-reading apparatus is apparently on the blink!

I wish everyone a wonderful holiday with no rude relatives or friends or hangers-on spoiling their fun---including those whose mind-reading apparatus is apparently on the blink!

Kswl, I'm not sure who you are addressing as I thought we were being respectful of each other over the last couple of posts. If you were talking to me than "yes" I have picked the non winning presidential candidate the last four elections in a row.
Still, I wish you and all a happy holiday!

I just did it to bring attention to something that could otherwise keep us divided or make us divided.

jterrilynn - What is that "something"? I have read over this thread a number of times and am lost as to the point you are trying to make (the real issue, as you refer to it).

Jterrilyn, my comment was not meant for you and I apologize if you thought it was. Olliesmom declared that she knew what I meant even though her "knowledge" was, unfortunately, incorrect. Instead of just saying she was wrong, I tried to be humorous and said that her mind-reading apparatus was on the blink. Clearly, she's no mind-reader but I am no comedian :-)

Surely, someone of kswl's s stature...who DOESN'T OWN or WATCH a television, who ONLY reads newspapers, and any other "holier than thou" thing she boasts about, would be smart enough to KNOW that when you put something political in a statement on this board, it could be considered bad manners, or get a rise out of people.

Just calling you out on it, is all...

Please - just stop. This is ridiculous bickering and completely unnecessary.