as kk said "Your sister has issues with you, so she latched onto this as a continuation of her angry confrontation with you."

when you listen to Don't get hooked" with Pema you will completely understand and the healing for you can begin. That is the only person you can work with. You can control how you react it is very powerful stuff. I look forward to hearing more when you get a chance. c

"Here's some background. My sister and I have not spoken since late June. The reason is dumb. I called her like she wanted me to, but when she answered, she yelled at me for having called. She e-mailed me about something else a few days later about another topic, and I brought up that it would be nice to have an apology from her-- that everyone has a bad day, but then an apology would be nice . . .then I went on with the email trying to be supportive about other issues in her life. I have never, ever made a mention of her behavior before. (This kind of thing is not that unusual.)"

Your description of your sister does make her sound as if she is a difficult and unyielding person. I will accept that you may be correct about this--you are the one who knows her, after all. But I just want to comment about my own sister. She has emotional (and I believe...mental) issues that make it hard for us to connect on a very deep or sisterly level. But the reason I included your first paragraph is this....My own sister will ask me to apologize for perceived slights to her and will go on in an email telling me how much she admires the way I handle THIS or THAT and supposedly being supportive to me. I usually close and delete in disgust. Perhaps your asking HER to apologize and then going on to be supportive, etc., hit the wrong note with her too?

Maybe, if you really want to make an attempt at regaining your sister, you should just make a brief call to her and apologize for anything YOU may have said or done to offend her? Don't get into a conversation about it and don't try to explain. Or perhaps, since communication is difficult between you, buy a simple card (NOT a holiday themed card) and just write something like that inside. Maybe even adding a line, like, "Can we just start over?"

It doesn't make you the bad guy or even say that she doesn't have problems, just try to fix it. And do not tell anyone else that you've done, it, because that, my friend, will definitely say to her that you think you are superior to her. I've been down this road too.

Red

The problem for me is that I never know what will set her off. Any decision I make in MY life is suddenly about her, when it has nothing to do with her...I would think she is narcissistic, but again, she seems to be good with her kids, so that does not fit either.

Sounds a lot like my sister. If I ever said anything positive or negative about what was going on in my life, she would turn it around to how much better/worse her situation was (my mother was very much the same). Linda Ronstadt's song Poor, Poor, Pitiful Me comes to mind. I think Trailrunner gave you great advice. I always remind my students that the only person they have control over is themselves-they choose their reactions and their attitude. I am off to check out her link! Sounds like my kind of thinking! :)

Although this may not be popular, I am not sure apologizing is the way to go. You may end up apologizing for the next 50 years for things that really and truly did not need apoplogies and that will take a toll on you. Another thing I often tell my kids is that I don't need an apology from them, I need to see a change in behavior.

Obviously we can all offer suggestions on what's going on & what's not- something is telling you that you need to step away & that is my suggestion. If you feel like you have to step away; do it because you know what's actually being said & how she is.

I don't mention family besides my dad; every now & then I may hint that I have a "mother" & was not hatched; but you will never see me say I have siblings because I walked away when my dad passed. The day he died; I lost any "family" I had. One is like yours & is the cause of the drama in my life. She was not in my parents life for close to 10 years because she got mad my dad didn't close his business for the day to go to her son's communion party. She didn't speak to me for close to 5 years over the same thing. Between the 2; they turned my "mother" against me & I'm done with all of them.

Walking away was the best thing I did & am sorry I started speaking to her again after the communion stuff.

Trail, your link didn't work for me, but here it is again. Hope it works for everyone if they had the same problem. If not, ignore me! :)

She is so much closer to enlightenment than I am-always good to listen to her and this is a nice clip.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pema Chodon

You guys all make good points. I hope I am not misunderstood to be saying that OP is the one who said something or did something wrong. It's just that sometimes, it's just good to be the one who says, "I'm sorry if anything I said or did hurt you. Can we just start over?" It's not really taking responsibility for the madness, it's giving the other person the opportunity to take a breath and maybe just make a better start. I've done this more than once, and not usually with family. It's had good results and no results, depending on the real attitude of the other person. But at least, if the subject is brought up, I can say that I've done what I could to make peace. It gives me a clear conscience. And at least one time, many years ago, I got a very unpleasant surprise when that former friend came to me to tell me how much it meant to her after all the 'things I had said to her'. She went on to describe times when I hurt her with words. And it was a revelation, because while I thought I was clearly being facetious or that I had no intention of wounding, my words had stung. I realized that my manner needed some adjustment.

Red

Red; you make good points because we all say/do stuff at one time or another. The way I'm reading this is that the sister is always doing hurtful things to certain people & never takes responsibility & this one time the OP asked her to; she went off & made a bigger mountain. This is why I suggest walking away. At some point; if she feels the need to start over; perhaps they both can do so by both clearing the air by seeing what they both did to offend the other. My guess is that it will do no good

"The problem for me is that I never know what will set her off. Any decision I make in MY life is suddenly about her, when it has nothing to do with her...I would think she is narcissistic, but again, she seems to be good with her kids, so that does not fit either."

I wouldn't be so quick to write of the narcissistic idea... If her children are intelligent, attractive, and otherwise 'brag-worthy', they may very well be sources of 'narcissistic supply' for her. If they look up to her, make her feel important, reflect well on her as a parent -- then why wouldn't she be nice to them? *Especially* in public. (My Ex, who was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder was the most *wonderful* father while out in public - doting, affectionate, involved. Of course, our baby/toddler son was exceptionally cute! But at home with no one watching? Total neglect.)

Narcissism was the VERY FIRST thought in my mind when reading your first post, and since then, nothing you've said has been inconsistent with that. I'd take another look at the possibility if I were you... (Though admittedly, I'm over-sensitized to NPD.)

anele, in re-reading my post, I get where you thought I meant your daughter thought that about her cousins, and that is NOT the way I meant it. That is why I don't post too much, because it made sense when I wrote it! LOL! I did understand that your daughter said it was too hard for HER, but, not knowing anything about your sister and your neices, just thought your sister might have thought YOU thought it was too hard for your neices. Anyhoo, now I'm mixed up! You said they had been in a Shakespeare play and such, so what I was "guessing" the problem was, is obsolete now that you gave more info since my last post.

I didn't know that you guys all know my youngest sister! My sister yelled at me in February and I don't know why. Well a couple of months later I received an e-mail from her that was basically a character assassination of me and my treatment of her in our childhood. I'm 8 years older and so when she was 4 I was 12 when she was 10 I was 18 etc but apparently I wasn't there for her enough. I was probably a self-absorbed teenager most of the time. Anyway, she has decided that she wants me to apologize for the way I treated her when we were growing up. I have told her that I have no desire to revisit my childhood and for her to grow up.

I am a big believer in not revisiting kindergarten or high school or play those kind of games and I don't believe in revisionist history and I won't put myself back there. So, she is no longer part of my life and it is actually kind of nice.

I don't have any advice for the OP because only she knows how much cr%p she will tolerate from a family member. But I also think that when we become adults we shouldn't have to put up with more stuff from a family member than we would tolerate from a friend. (This is in terms of being treated badly not in terms of support)

Exactly, blf. Well said.

Wow BLF; that's mine too.. she even wrote my dad a nasty letter saying he deserved to have cancer & he's not her father & she would never consider donating stem cells to save his life when he smoked & ate poorly.. what did he expect? Her's was that he was always working & never around when we were growing up. Guess his home maker wife was going to pay our bills?

trailrunner, I guess my dilemma comes from that I don't really think I need healing. I have done a lot of "work" since my teens on myself . . .I had depression back then and saw a counselor. (When we had family counseling sessions, the counselor actually said my sister should really be the one attending, though she never did alone.) I feel like I know myself well. I am mostly at peace with my non-relationship with my sister. My life is better without her in it, though I know this had negative effects on my mom (of course) and my children (they don't see their cousins as often). It is also somewhat of a loss, but I know it's more of the loss of the DREAM of what I would love in a sister versus reality. But, I want to be honest, too. I want to know what my role is-- what I actually have done wrong-- to contribute to this problem.

red, I guess my point there was that normally I do not bring things up with her. I do not normally tell her how she should treat me. All of us-- her DH, my mom, and me-- are scared of her reactions. People normally walk on eggshells around her (not friends; she is different with them). So, I "thought" maybe I could mention it this one time, and then move on . . .as in, I don't really expect an apology; would have been nice, but whatever. Then, I went on in the e-mail as I always do to show I would not harbor ill feelings and chit-chat as always. In trying to be supportive, this is all my sister wants from me. She wants someone to tell her that she is amazing and wonderful and fantastic all the time. I guess we all do, but she will go out of her way to make me feel WORSE about things, which is what has confused me.

A few months ago I commented that her youngest was such a happy baby. I admired that he would sit contentedly in her lap, just relaxing with her. I told her mine would always get so fussy if I did that and I had to nurse them. (I was newly pregnant and already dreading that part.) My sister didn't respond with, "Yeah, isn't it great!" Instead, she went on to tell me that it's because of what SHE as a parent does. Personality has nothing to do with it, she said. She told me she is very experienced as mom of 6 (I had 4 when I said this) and it's 100% her doing. I thought that was sort of strange . . .not sure if she intended it, but like she was trying to give herself an even bigger compliment (and remind me that I don't know what I'm doing) when I was already giving her baby a compliment?

But, when I hear/read things about Buddhism I think I cannot really be living in peace if I have someone I am intentionally leaving out of my life. I don't think any major religion/philosophy would agree that it's right. So, in that sense, I do see what you mean about apologizing, or somehow saying, "let's move on," though I really do not want contact w/her.

cyn, yes, I really don't know what I did wrong. My mom said my sister is most upset that I blocked her on FB. I had told her (after her e-mail) that I was done with her, and I really don't think she has a right to see what I am thinking/doing on FB. Is that wrong? This is why I want to know about this e-mail-- was it offensive? If so, then I will know I do not have a good radar for being sensitive with her, and would be able to apologize. I VERY much agree that change in behavior is most important. When my kids do something, I never tell them to say "sorry." I tell them to find a way to make it up to the person.

roselvr, I am where you are at. At this point, my sister may accept me back in her life, but I don't think I'd be happy about it. I don't need perfection from her, but I would like progress. Can't believe your sister said that about your dad. :(

sweeby, very true about her kids. I do think she is good with them in person, but you are right, they do define who she is as in, "Hey everyone! Look at me! I have 6 kids so there is no way you will ever 'win' because I have more than you!" She is often miserable with the amount of work she has, but she will not consider changing her lifestyle (I don't mean getting rid of the kids, LOL, but other things) because then . . .I think . . .she thinks people will stop seeing her as amazing. So much is show. I am sorry you had to go through with NPD with your ex, but glad he's your EX!

olliesmom, I get you! Communication can be so hard in any form! :) When I write to students sometimes I ask DH to read before I send because I am concerned I am too confusing or whatever! It's not easy!

blfenton, yes, I use friends as a comparison point. I keep wondering if that is wrong . . .my DH and mom are pushing me to work w/my sister because she is "family" but I think family should not get a free pass. I looked up to my sister for years and years . ..always wanted her approval and never got it. Never understood why she'd want to compete with me because I would agree that she'd "win" in every category . . . more money, bigger house, more prestigious degree, prettier than I, more kids, etc. It is not a game I am playing with her. Maybe it really does go back to narcissism because it seems the problems come when things are only 99% about her instead of 100%. Even my mom thinks she "wins." My mom is not typically like this (with others) but lately when I tell her a problem, she would IMMEDIATELY bring up my sister and tell me how much better my sister is handling it. If I say my kids' school is teaching to the test, she says how my sister's is not, how they go so in-depth and it's so awesome. Or, when I told her how I am going to serve a really simple dinner, she told me that my sister would only serve that kind of thing for lunch, it wouldn't be enough food for my mom, my sister made everything from scratch, etc. It is comical. What I do is to agree with her, and I am not being sarcastic. I say, "Yeah, she really can handle things so well . . .wish I could be like her . . ."

OK, I know I've gone on too long about this! I am going to look up trailrunner's link and be OK that I am OK with not having a relationship with her. :)

anele - I don't think you need healing either. If you are at peace with how you are as a person and if you are at peace with a minimal relationship with your sister then I'd say you're good all around.

Like you said "be OK that I am OK with not having a relationship with her. :)" and that is exactly where I am with my sister. It was like a big heavy load was lifted as soon as I acknowledged that to myself. It may take a little (very little) self-healing for me to recognize that it is a long term new situation for me wrt my sister but it is best for me.

I'm so sorry you're struggling with this. It really hits home, as it reminds me of something that's going on (and has been going on for years) in my own family.

I'm not sure I understand this, though: "But, when I hear/read things about Buddhism I think I cannot really be living in peace if I have someone I am intentionally leaving out of my life. I don't think any major religion/philosophy would agree that it's right. So, in that sense, I do see what you mean about apologizing, or somehow saying, "let's move on," though I really do not want contact w/her."

I don't know much about Buddhism, but it sounds to me that you're saying it's not right to disengage from someone in your life. I don't think it's possible to live harmoniously with everyone, all the time, and sometimes there are numerous, repeating toxic events that occur in relationships that just defy understanding. It sounds as though you have experienced a lifetime of abuse from your sister, which could stem from any number of reasons. While it would certainly be nice to understand why a person who behaves inexplicably behave as they do, sometimes that's just not within our realm of understanding. I think that acceptance is not at all the same thing as embracing. You can accept that your sister behaves as she does (because, really, what other choice do you have? You aren't going to change her) - but by no means are you required to embrace her behavior. The trick comes in accepting and moving on - even if that means that contact is severed, and in letting completely go of the need to understand and/or "fix" her.

I wish you all the very best. I know how incredibly hurtful this is.

But, when I hear/read things about Buddhism I think I cannot really be living in peace if I have someone I am intentionally leaving out of my life.

Isn't that what Buddha did? Left his family to find "enlightenment"? Sounds a little hypocritical, doesn't it?

anele...it isn't in the scope of my experience of meditation and reading what I have so far, to comment on what you have said above. I made the suggestion that you listen to Pema since she is very well thought of and her interpretation of Buddhism and other's writings are considered excellent.

When you listen to her "don't bite the hook" and other of her techniques for disengaging from anger you will see , I hope, that it isn't a negative toward the other person but a positive to you. Seeking fulfillment and peace for yourself does not have to be seen nor should it be seen as a diminishment of others. When you are at peace you radiate this and are a positive influence on others. c

"but I think family should not get a free pass." I so agree with what you wrote, anele; it's very telling, no matter how you interpret buddhism.

I believe that you cannot change people around you, you can only change yourself, and what you are willing to accept. I don't remember where I heard this or when, but it made so much sense to me, and it removed a lot of frustration I had with people who were not like I wanted them to be or people who always wanted something from me.

good luck in your quest to find peace within yourself in this conflict.

Natal, should you want to learn more about the Buddha, I would be happy to recommend some books. Just let me know.

Anele, it doesn't seem to me that you have done anything for which you need to apologize and I see no problem with de-friending (is that a word?) your sister.

I wish you peace and contentment.

Gosh, I am so glad I read this thread. I have identical issues with my older sister and also blocked her from my life. I took years of abuse and only ended it when she started to use my children to get at me. I've been feeling like such a bad person for cutting her out of my life and always pretend when others ask about her. But hearing that it is so common, makes me feel less guilty.

Even though I regret that it hurts my mother, I know I did the right thing. My self-confidence is at an all time high and I've had success in my professional life that i don't think I could have achieved with her constant drama in my life.

I really think that you are doing your sister a favour by cutting her off. Some people think they can do or say anything to family and expect it to be forgiven. After my sister threatened my kids and i stopped speaking to her, she was apparently shocked when I wouldn't let her communicate with them at Christmas. It was an absolute surprise to her that after years of dishing out abuse she would actually have to face a consequence for her actions.

Like you, I wish I had silently divorced her, but however it came about, I know i made the right decision. You have to do what feels right to you, but I don't think you need to or should apologize unless you want the relationship to continue in the same pattern it has in the past.

My dad was a good guy; came here in the 50's; worked to put food on the table; bought a house & business- which was not easy when you're an immigrant. I have a letter he wrote in the 70's to get a business loan.

I'm #2 of 3- the other 2 were never close to me & being a mother myself; see where my "mother" encouraged their bad behavior of me because of her own guilt of cheating on my dad before she had me. I don't know why she didn't adopt me out like she did kid 1 or give me to her boyfriend at the time because neither made me feel part of the family. The DNA stuff came out when I was 40 & she refused to donate; then there was super jealousy that I was my dads favorite (I earned it for 30 years) & they could not understand how when he knew all along I may not be his. In reality; when I had my son at 20 & he was the blond version of my dad; it was as good as a DNA test to him. We did one the day he passed; he lived just to give the sample; then passed 2 hours later because he was at peace. In his heart he knew what it would show. I have a hard time with it because I begged for the test for months; he kept saying it didn't matter. My life would be different had he listened.

Anyway; they wanted to make sure me & my kids didn't get our inheritance & had the will rewritten; he had no clue what he was signing. They then pushed me for 2 years to step down even though I'd walked away at that point. They also accuse me of typing the DNA results on my computer. 6 years after the "secret" came out (11/05) I was hit with more legal papers again on my 10th anniversary. Knowing them; this was a planned move to ruin my holiday. This is all coming from my "mother" via them pushing her to do it & she does.

The nasty 2 page letter was sent via email & unsigned Christmas card after he'd been told his cancer returned. My dad had kept trying to fix their relationship & at one time decided he'd had enough & purposely left her a set amount in case she fought it. The letter ripped his heart out; he went into a huge depression that IMO contributed to his decline.

Sorry for my rant; the newest legal papers hurt. Your post is so similar to what happened to me. I have tons of emails with a similar tone. I also used to ignore comments & at some point you get tired of it.

Some people think they can do or say anything to family and expect it to be forgiven.

That's so true, and is something I'll never understand. Not that my relationships are perfect (goodness knows there have been times of turmoil), but my family is the most important thing in my life, and I cannot fathom treating any one of my siblings or my parents as though their feelings are somehow inferior to mine. I just can't imagine treating my family members with willful disrespect, and I think anyone who purposely inflicts pain on a brother or sister, mother or father, has something inherently wrong with their inner wiring.

What Daisychain said about her kids is also what happened to me & from what's written; I wouldn't put it past yours to eventually sink this low.

"She wants someone to tell her that she is amazing and wonderful and fantastic all the time. I guess we all do, but she will go out of her way to make me feel WORSE about things, which is what has confused me. "

Classic narcissism...

"Instead, she went on to tell me that it's because of what SHE as a parent does. Personality has nothing to do with it, she said. She told me she is very experienced as mom of 6 (I had 4 when I said this) and it's 100% her doing. I thought that was sort of strange . . .not sure if she intended it, but like she was trying to give herself an even bigger compliment (and remind me that I don't know what I'm doing) when I was already giving her baby a compliment? "

And even more! Yes, your compliment 'wasn't big enough'!

"I had told her (after her e-mail) that I was done with her, and I really don't think she has a right to see what I am thinking/doing on FB. Is that wrong? This is why I want to know about this e-mail-- was it offensive? "

Makes perfect sense to me. So was it wrong? Absolutely Not! You were clear in your rationale and not deliberately hurtful in your delivery. But was it offensive? To her overblown sense of importance - absolutely! So does the fact that she was offended mean that you were wrong? No! She was offended because she wanted to be offended. It was her sense of importance that was affronted. Your actions dismissed her.

Your comment about Buddhism and deliberately avoiding a few select people -- Very kind, but not something I can agree with. Some people sow disharmony wherever they go. How can you live at peace with them constantly around trying to make sure you are not at peace? There's 'hateful exclusion' and 'benign avoidance'.

"Never understood why she'd want to compete with me because I would agree that she'd "win" in every category . . . more money, bigger house, more prestigious degree, prettier than I, more kids, etc. "

Oh, but there is! And that's something your sister sees very clearly and that you are overlooking...

You have an inner peace and a core of kindness and self-acceptance that she can never even hope to attain! You have grace. Look at how you are striving to turn yet another cheek to yet another attack. At how you can calmly and sincerely praise her good qualities without feeling threatened that it somehow diminishes you. At how you can gracefully acknowledge her 'multiple wins' without feeling that somehow you're unsatisfactory -- even in comparison! At how she struggles so hard to cook every meal from scratch! To raise how many oodles of kids! To put on every single show and be perfect in every way.

You have a degree of happiness she will never know; you have mental health.
(And she doesn't. And she knows it.)

I understand why you unfriended your sister. In the realm of FB, removing someone from your friend list (and calling attention to it) is perceived as something of an inflammatory act, a public disavowal. So, her reaction was bound to be negative. Like I said, I understand your impulse to do that, but it likely fanned the flames.

When my combative sister furiously and publicly stated at a family reunion that there were "bizarre sexual goings on" in my household (because my 6 year old knew how puppies were made and told her older daughters) and that "no one loved" my "bossy daughter," I packed up and left the gathering (we were visiting from out of state). Before I left, however, I suggested that we continue to write to each other (this was before FB) because I was afraid that if we stopped communicating altogether, we would never speak to each other again. However, I privately resolved that I would reveal nothing personal to her--I talked about the weather, about gardening, and about work, and only in the most general of ways. It gave me a sense of control, and let me keep her at arm's length, something I absolutely had to have.

It was my way of dealing with her--it was extremely painful to my family to have this rupture (we are all close). But it was too painful to me to expose myself to her unpredictable and tyrannical ways. It took several years, but the rift has mostly healed. She has attacked me since then, but not in such a devastating, public, or sweeping fashion. However, I am always cautious around her, and do not let her become close enough to me to cause that sort of pain again.

I'm not sure I would recommend that you apologize to your sister. I think that there are deeply-seated issues that she has (inadequacy, childhood competitiveness, jealousy) that you likely cannot solve, and that will always be present. So you need to protect yourself from her toxicity. Remaining calm and emotionally distant and neutral protects you. Don't be drawn into drama. Drama is exhausting and destructive, even when you are in the right. It diminishes the spirit.

Kkay, I so relate to what you've said about your relationship with your sister, and how you feel you have no choice but to protect yourself by keeping her at arm's length. I have such a relationship myself, and it pains me that it's so - but after having opened myself up to this person and then being verbally attacked in the most bizarre manner, I won't allow myself to "go there" ever again with them. It's been awhile since the episode, and at times I find myself easing back into familiarity - but I catch myself and rein personal information back to a minimum - focusing instead on the weather and gardening, mostly. It hurts when it comes to that, but it's self-preservation.

The problem with limiting info is it will eventually put others in the middle; that's what happened to us. They will press other family for information or the other person that knows info will slip.

It's not the information that is the point of limiting the contact (for me). Rather, it is a cessation of the intimacy and implied connection that comes with an easy exchange of shared experience. I don't much care whether my sister knows what schools my son was accepted into; about a promotion or job change; our acquisitions; about my travels or adventures; or about our disappointments or difficulties. If she is getting that information second-hand, so what? I just don't want to share that information with her in a comfortable and familiar fashion that implies trust and goodwill.

For me, the facts are not what matters. I don't want to shroud my life from anyone or impose a burden of secrecy on others in my circle. This "distancing" is emotional, and personal. And very, very effective, I might add.

That's totally it for me too, kkay.

sweeby, thank you for the analysis! I looked up more information about narcissism and I was surprised to see how many characteristics she has. I found that there were different personality subtypes, and that IQ plays into how it's exhibited, which explained a lot. Also, from what I read, there are levels of severity. While I am not out to make an official diagnosis, the information was very helpful to me in that not only do I know it isn't me, but it almost isn't "her," either. If it is this, then there isn't too much hope for change. However, the causes don't seem to fit into our childhood. My parents were not indulgent or cold, though my dad was an alcoholic (a nice one, if that makes sense), so he was sort of withdrawn from us, though we knew he loved us. He died when I was 13.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts re: Buddhism. It is one of the biggest issues I have with consciously cutting someone out of my life, which I don't normally do. I have these ideals and do not seem to live up to them. I watched a movie about the 4th wise man (anyone seen it?) and thought how far removed I am from the way he lived-- selfless.

kkay, re: FB, I did not call attention to removing her. I did not threaten-- I just did it and she figured it out. My mom said that this act is the biggest issue for my sister, and that puzzled me because FB is the least intimate place of all! I could be wrong-- but it fits into this idea of narcissism. On FB, she can present herself in the best light and now she has lost one more "audience" member. What better situation would it have been for her to get back at me than by showcasing her perfection? Now her stage is gone.

Regarding limiting information, this was my first step about a year ago. I have tried this, but somehow the most innocuous conversations and e-mails could still go sour. We didn't necessarily fight/argue about them, but just as with admiring my nephew (something I'd say to a stranger) and then having it turned around as subtle criticism, innocent talk left me confused.

Celebrations would be when she'd make time to see us, but I do not want to be in that position again. One yr my mom asked her-- did not request/require anything-- if she wanted her to come over for Christmas day or eve. My sister went on a rampage (my mom stayed quiet) and then did not talk to my mom for weeks. My mom was never invited for Christmas that yr, but went over anyway just to drop off gifts for the kids. My sister slowly warmed up to her again. At my wedding, she didn't talk to me and was in a bad mood. I had no idea why, wondered what I did, etc. Now maybe I would guess that I know the reason-- because it was not her wedding. She threatened to kick me out of her own wedding because I wanted to pay for the dress one week later, and she said that it would be unacceptable because it would be from a different dye lot. When I had breastfeeding issues with my 1st child, she told me she had no such problems and asked why did I have them . .that was when I was at one of my lowest points. She does things like invite me over (an hour drive) and then tell me that she is too busy to see me once I am there. I've invited her over and she will tell me she's coming, never to show up, or show up in a bad mood. She will be excited on the phone to plan a get-together with the kids out, but then cancel at the last minute or go to the place, but not talk to us, and take her kids off on their own (meanwhile, my kids and hers are dying to see each other). She refused to let me babysit her daughter at my house because she said it was too small. (She had one child, and we had a 2 bedroom apt.) These are just random things that I can't imagine anyone else doing. It is so different when I go out with my mom and friends and none of this happens.

I worked for her for a year taking care of her 2 children. I had to bring my own DD then, who was 11 months old. I was a pretty new mom, and I was talking just out loud thinking that I'd close the bathroom door during the day for babyproofing. She went into a rage, telling me it would get moldy and no way could I do that. (Of course, SHE does it-- to this day I have no idea what she was talking about.) I almost didn't work for her, by our DHs talked me into it. She would do things like take down her baby gate because her DD did not need it (I asked her to keep it up since I was there 3 days a week), but mine would . . .my DD fell down a flight of stairs there. My menstrual cycles were terrible that year-- had fertility issues. I assumed things had just changed and I would have to deal with it. Never thought it was stress. Then I finally stopped working for her (she became a WAHM), and my cycles went back to normal. I never had that problem again. Wish I had that year of my life back (I tried to quit several times) but since I can't undo the past, I never want to think, wow, I wish this time back, either.

I find that the message is so similar in many mental health therapies-- the idea that we can't control others, and each person has their vision of reality. I do not know if anyone has read The 4 Agreements, but this is another example of allowing each person to own their own "dream." For me, I want to take responsibility for my own-- figure out HOW I am contributing to the negativity, so that I can change it.

The baby gate incident is unbelievable! And your apartment was too small for her baby? Hunh!?

If she is a narcissist Anele, your only contribution is being alive and doing anything other than exactly what she wants. If she is a narcissist, your role for her is to make her feel better. Better than you. Better than others. Better than she felt when she walked into the room. And if you aren't actively doing that, then you're letting her down and "deserve" to be punished (yelled at, insulted, denigrated, condescended to, ignored, ridiculed, scorned)...

If she's a narcissist, then you can never win (because then she would lose, which is intolerable). It's nothing you're doing. It's not your fault. It's just her cross to bear. Narcissists are broken people who spread their pain onto others to make their own emptiness more bearable. Quite simply, they damage the people who love them.

I could understand 'easing her burden' by carrying some of her pain -- if only it would actually work. But it doesn't. It only hurts you.

Your sister really does sound like a classic narcissist.

My Dad's psychiatrist described narcissism as a "malignant personality disorder." That means it can't be controlled and often times those closest to them suffer from Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome.

The psychiatrist advised that the best course of action when dealing with a narcissist is to stay away and cut contact because there is no cure, no reasoning, no love that will change them. There is also no closure or resolution to help put them behind you.

Here is a link that might be useful: Victims and Survivors of Psychopaths

sweeby, again, thank you. As I said, I have been trying to be the person she wants me to be for a long, long time. My husband and mother are both disappointed in my ability to not put up with her now, however. (They say, "That's just how she is.") Both tend to avoid confrontation at all costs, so I can see their POV.

My DH doesn't interact with her much anyway, but my mom . . .my poor mom. She deals with these things all the time w/my sister. She doesn't know why my sister will stop talking to her, why she will yell at her, etc. My DH and I lived with my mom for a year (with our youngest DD) and I can say that we rarely had any problems with my mom, even though other factors were stressful. She is very easy to get along with, so I can't see how my mom would cause my sister to do these things. (And I guess the answer is . . .she isn't.)

kelly, thank you for that link. The person I feel bad for the most is her husband. I cringe when I hear her talk to him, esp. since she does it in front of the kids. My relationship with my own husband (and others) has changed for the better now that I do not have contact with my sister. When I would tell her something my husband did, she would think of the worst interpretation of it, and I would follow in her thinking . . .I did not treat my husband rationally when I did that. That was my choice--my sister never forced me, of course-- but now that I am away from her negativity, somehow things that I would have made a big deal about (being abusive, even, to DH) I don't think twice about-- am able to let go and move on in a positive way. Again, that is on me, not my sister, but it's interesting to see how it's at least "easier" to be a better, calmer person when we are around positive people. Ultimately, it's up to me to be that way regardless-- just nice not to have to work as hard!

Thanks again to everyone for your thoughts on this. I feel so much more at peace, and peace in letting go completely. I do feel bad for my mom and BIL but they are the masters of their own universe-- for them, it is worth it.

Anele...just looking back to see what has transpired here . Interesting that your DH and Mom say "that's just the way she is ".

I was continuing listening to the audio book by Pema Chodron, Don't Get Hooked. On the CDs she talks about Potential to be Bothered. A great and interesting topic. She makes a lot of good points but one especially is about folks like your sister. She says that in her studies to become a Buddhist nun the monks would have questions from the students about people who behaved like your sister . They would respond as you DH and Mom did...that is just the way they are.

If you think about it that is a very useful response. Our interactions with others are controlled by 2 things...the way someone acts and our reaction. If you don't bite the hook and respond with the same old same old that you always have then you have broken that line of behavior. Your potential to be bothered has been interrupted and you have short-circuted the whole affair. She makes a good point that when you already know that someone is a certain way...they have shown it over and over again...then why would you want to respond the same to them over and over again ? What is the point ?

I sure hope that you had a chance to listen to some of her shorts on the You tube link. They are really down to earth and she gives great examples that you can use in your daily life. Also the local library may carry her books and audio books so you can check them out. Good Luck ! c

TrailR, thank you. I will have some uninterrupted reading time soon, when I'm in the hospital with the baby and finally done teaching my classes. I will get one of her books. (Do you recommend one to start with?)

And yes, the advice of not reacting the same way is not new. In fact, that is the definition of insanity: reacting the same way and expecting a different result. I've tried different ways of reacting . . .or not reacting. I make it a point to be reflective and put what I find through searching. This time, I am reacting by deciding that mental health is more important than my family's opinion. I don't feel hooked into anything, in fact.

What does she say about someone being in a situation where someone is continually abusive? For example, if your spouse were emotionally abusive, would she then recommend that you meditate through the abuse, let it go, and continue to live with that person? That the responsibility falls on you to change?

As I said, I was raised with a father who was an alcoholic. He was not abusive, but he was absent in many ways. Because he was not abusive, my mom thinks it wasn't so bad. She was working most of the time, so she doesn't know what an "alone" childhood my sister and I had. That is the past-- I can't change my childhood, and I can't change the choices my dad made. As an adult, however, I can change the situations I am in. I've invested years into the relationship with my sister, including many different ways of dealing with her. So far, not being with her has been my best choice.

There is certainly no one that would say if you are in an abusive situation that you should stay there.

The main thrust of all of the teachings, and believe me I am a novice at this and have only begun to plumb the depths of all of the information, is the practice of tonglen. Tolerance and compassion are what you are trying to achieve. You and your responses are what you can control. No one says that you have to stay in close proximity to a person that is abusive. But even if you are miles away the effect that they have on you through the thoughts that you have about them and the residual of that treatment is what she is talking about.

So the person is physically abusive or mentally abusive or both. You leave the person and go to a safe place. You have taken the abuse with you in one way or another. Just because you are now elsewhere does not immediately resolve the situation. As others here have said they have long distance relationships that are toxic.

So you can only do something about your feelings and reactions. If over time your ability to look at all of this in a different and compassionate way has an effect on others ...that is great...but you are doing this for you.

There is nothing gained by anger and fanning the flames of antagonistic relationships. One has to break the connection somewhere and with oneself is the only place to begin. Here is a very helpful link.

I am looking forward to hearing what you think after listening to and or reading some of her work. (( )) to you Anele. c

Here is a link that might be useful: tonglen

TR, I absolutely agree with you. Carrying anger and feelings of resentment holds one prisoner. I read the stories in "Zen Shorts" to my children, and one of the stories I thought was powerful was in letting go (see link below). I don't know if they got anything from it, but I did!

My mom used to go to ala-non, and one of the things I remember reading from her books (I think was only 11, so it impressed me from a fairly young age), was the idea of geographical escape. In other words, some people believe (could be the person who is being abused OR doing the abuse) that by simply changing the "scenery," that they would change the situation. We know this is not true, but it's a common reaction, I think.

I have been through extensive soul-searching over the years. The ideas of changing our perspective and not changing the person, letting go of anger, etc. are ideas that are not unique to any particular philosophy or religion. These are the core of any sort of healing-- really, not even healing-- just peace.

However, my root question in all of this has not been about anger toward my sister. I fully understand I cannot change her, and am no way attempting to do so. I know that I can't change anyone, even a small child. I understand that this situation is my perspective, but I am looking at it from another angle, which is personal responsibility.

As a teen in counseling, one of the counselors told my mom that I saw things in black/white and did not take responsibility for my actions. I was used to people praising my efforts because I was a perfectionist, so that criticism really bothered me. It turns out that was the biggest favor of my life. I came across a book (to my mom's horror, it was a book about witchcraft) that emphasized this idea of personal responsibility. In fact, just this morning, I was telling my daughter that we are the magicians of our lives. While on one hand, taking responsibility seems like a chore, on the other, it is helps us understand that we are FREE.

To make a short story long :) my point is this thread has been to identify my personal responsibility in this situation. Have I contributed to the negativity? Was I showing condescension in the email without realizing it? What are my obligations to stay in contact with my sister? Have I been insensitive? Have I been TOO sensitive? In other words, is there any chance that changing myself would make it possible for me to have a harmonious relationship with her?

It seems that, based on what I've learned through this thread (and confirmed by my own peacefulness in limiting contact), the answer is ultimately no, I would not. There is always hope . . .and if one day my sister reaches out to me and says she wants to actually WORK on our relationship, I will welcome her with open arms.

Here is a link that might be useful: Zen Shorts/A Heavy Load

Hey anele...yes that story of the heavy load has been a standby in our household for a long time. DH likes to say " put it down" at appropriate times :)

The idea of us being with ourselves no matter where we go is one we have tried to get our 2 sons to understand for the longest. They both do now but boy it took years and years for them to get it. They kept thinking that if only they found the right job, or had the right apartment or the right boss or friends...it went on and on. It is a bit like the "grass is always greener" syndrome , isn't it?

I see what you are getting at now...your own responsibility. I am a believer in the phrase " we are our brother's ( sister's ) keeper". I have had to struggle for decades with this very thing, In fact there is part of me that still has not come to grips with it. Two of my brothers committed suicide . One was May 1981 and the other was in February 1996. There is a part of me that worries that there were things I should have noticed or done or not said or said...how could I have been so busy with my life that I let my brother's down.

Then there is the issue of how I raised my children...how many of the problems that my DS2 struggles with are due directly to me and my lack of support and love and kindness when it was most needed . How much of this load do I need to continue to carry...ah...so it goes back to the heavy load.

As I said with the practice of tonglen you are taking responsibility for yourself and your actions. You are thinking before leaping when someone does something to you or doesn't do something they should. You are showing compassion to all no matter what. In return you have made a fundamental change in your outlook and that may well, as I said above, lead to others seeing you differently and behaving differently. I believe this speaks directly to your concerns above and to what you said to your DD.

"In fact, just this morning, I was telling my daughter that we are the magicians of our lives. While on one hand, taking responsibility seems like a chore, on the other, it helps us understand that we are FREE."

"in other words, is there any chance that changing myself would make it possible for me to have a harmonious relationship with her?"

"There is always hope"

Continue to take the responsibility of self knowledge and show compassion and in return ...there is always hope. Namaste

I had those same questions, anele, with respect to my relationship with my sister. I don't see why I have to change myself to have a relationship with her. What I am going to do is have a very superficial relationship with my sister and I have told her this. Our conversations will, when they occur, be about the weather and that's about it. Our conversations will no longer involve our children, our DH's, or ourselves. I can't change "me and who I am" but I am going to change how I interact with her. I don't need to change how I interact with others in my family, just her.

The way I see it is that if you don't have issues with other people & you're not the only one that has issues with the same person; it's them.. After 40 years; I refuse to shine light on their ego & butt kiss. No relationship is worth that to me.

Do I miss having their company during holidays? Yes & no. It's nice to have family around since my parents came here in the 50's; leaving the rest of their family in Hungary; so there are no other relatives.. but; even though I hosted; paid for & cooked the meal; I was made to feel bad that they had to drive to my house.

Anele, I was going to suggest that story to you. So glad you already know it. As does TR, I try to keep that in mind as I go through each day. Still working on living in the present, but I am getting better at accepting what is. I get lots of practice in our DC area traffic-ha. It sounds as though you are on the path and making good choices.

TR, although I also believe we do need to take care of one another (practice compassion), I hope you can come to know that we can't make choices for others and that finally, what we do or don't do is not truly the deciding factor in another person's choices. Put down that heavy weight. You have given so much to me and your wisdom has been a gift. I know I am not the only one who feels that way.

I no longer have any contact with my younger sister and despite the fact that she has cut off my relationship with her daughters, I continue to keep in touch with them through FB even though I get no response. I do it because it is, for me, the kind and compassionate thing to do. I want them to always know they are loved and perhaps someday they will believe it again. If not, well, then they won't. I can't control that. I do not miss the "walking on eggshells" relationship with little sis. The fact that, like your sister, that is "just the way she is" does not mean that I need to subject myself to her nature which tends to change the person I am. I accept that she is that way and try to refrain from making judgments. I simply separate myself from the situation since it serves no good purpose to remain engaged.

I wish you both and all here, joy in the moment and contentment always.

cyn...I sure wish we were in the same neighborhood....I think we have a lot in common. I thank you for your kind and thoughtful message.

Do you ever go to retreats ? We are going to one , Shambala on Dec 26th-Jan1st. A way to see in the New Year. Then Feb 1st we are going to a 10 day silent retreat in GA. Very very different groups and outlooks . We are looking forward to exploring the differences and the time of meditation and learning.

DH went to one in May 2010 while I was on my bike trip. It was at the Insight Meditation Center in Redwood CA. It was silent also and a week long. He really liked it alot.

You have a very good take on what I was also trying to say...." I accept that she is that way and try to refrain from making judgments. I simply separate myself from the situation since it serves no good purpose to remain engaged." A daily practice for sure :) Thank you for your insightful comments. c

TR, I have thought the same thing (wishing we were nearby each other geographically). Since I still work, I don't get away much. Teaching doesn't leave too much time during the school year. I think I would love a silent retreat! If you like the place in GA, please let me know. I am in Northern Virginia, so that might be a possibility some day.

Thanks for the kind words. I think I articulate how I know I should be better than I actually live it. Still working on myself... :)

Cynthia

"To make a short story long :) my point is this thread has been to identify my personal responsibility in this situation. Have I contributed to the negativity? Was I showing condescension in the email without realizing it? What are my obligations to stay in contact with my sister? Have I been insensitive? Have I been TOO sensitive? In other words, is there any chance that changing myself would make it possible for me to have a harmonious relationship with her?"

This implies that you still think her reactions are based substantially on your actions -- which, in a typical relationship, they would be. Normal people interact. So normally, there's reciprocity, a give and take. Kindness is met with kindness, hostility with hostility. Conversations meander down a natural path directed more or less equally by both people.

But narcissists don't work that way. They have their own agendas and scripts based on their own needs, and if you don't follow their scripts, you are 'breaking their rules' and will always be punished - get a negative response. Narcissists use other people to meet their own needs, and the number one rule for dealing with a narcissist is this simple:

If you aren't useful (as a source for whatever the narcissist needs), you are useless! (with all the scorn that word implies)

"I accept that she is that way and try to refrain from making judgments. I simply separate myself from the situation since it serves no good purpose to remain engaged."

Perfect! Just remove yourself emotionally from the interaction. Pleasant but superficial responses are generally safe. Some benign flattery every so often. But no soul-searching conversations, no striving for a deeper emotional connection, no revealing of sisterly secrets...

Sweeby articulates it perfectly and is right on the mark. Unfortunately, I too have a narcissist sister who we believe is mentally ill and no one except our mother is speaking to her. Or should I say she's not speaking to us (4 sisters).

I understand the pain of removing a loved one from your world and the consequences that come with it, however, when someone treats you as poorly as a narcissist does, there is no choice, it's more a matter of mental survival than anything else. If you can do like Sweeby suggests, keeping the interaction at an arms length with no real personal interaction, great, but if not....I would take any steps necessary to remove yourself entirely from interacting with her.

Cyn, one of my best friends is named Cynthia! I've always loved that name. She goes by Cynthia professionally but I have to call her Cyn or Cyndy...ever since childhood.

What would you call a person who isn't a narcissist, but is very self-centered? A person who thrives for compliments and if they get one they make sure everyone knows about it. A person who constantly changes the subject back to themselves. For example, you could tell them you're on your deathbed, and they'd tell you that one time they thought they were on their deathbed. A person so tacky they can't keep their big mouth shut at a funeral because they're talking about themselves.

This person isn't argumentative but makes darn sure you know if they're mad. They hold a grudge forever and a day.

They tell you as an adult they loved your brother more than you as a child, but now loves you more. They tell you that your children are her favorites, not the other grandchildren. They tell strangers when introducing her granddaughter whom was adopted by her son, in front of the child that she's "adopted" instead of including them as a REAL grandhild.

Sorry to change the topic about ME, lol, but this is about my mother and I've always wanted to diagnose her. But she's not a 100% narcissistic. She'd give me the shirt off her back if she had to. She'd give me her last dollar.

anele, this is one of those situations that you simply have to let go of expectations, guilt and attachments.

While I believe the practice of loving-kindness and compassion is absolutely the correct way to live, for my peace and acceptance of personal responsibility I carry it one step further. I accept that the other has issues that are beyond my "control", but I accept it is my personal responsibility to send healing energy their way, as I try to remember to do daily for all creation. The fact is that however damaged and damaging the other's behavior is, it indicates that this person is locked in negativity. I refuse to contribute to the negativity, but I truly believe that I and anyone who so chooses can contribute in a small way to healing by letting that intent be my/our focus.

Be a blessing.

cyn..I sent you an email...hope it gets through..let me know if it doesn't. c

"But she's not a 100% narcissistic. She'd give me the shirt off her back if she had to. She'd give me her last dollar."

The important distinction in whether or not this indicates she is not a narcissist is why she's giving you the shirt off her back.

If she's doing it to show you, the rest of the world, or herself how kind, generous and self-sacrificing she is, what a good mother she is -- then that very unselfish-seeming action could absolutely be feeding a narcissistic need.

But if she's doing it because you need her shirt, and expecting only ordinary thanks in return (not endless gratitude and public praise), then that's a very different action. That's real generosity.

(My NPD Ex would donate large sums of money when the donation's visibility was high. It was never generosity, or even commitment to a cause -- it was always about showing off.)

Sweeby, I think a lot of people do what your ex does. I don't like it when people make sure others know they give to charities.

My mom would give me her shirt out of kindness, no bragging. That's why I'm stumped because I don't know one other person in this world who is like her. How can one be so generous with no strings attached, and on the flip side, they can be so self-centered? Not selfish, but self-centered.

The thing is, she got worse as she got older, beginning the day she turned 50 to be exact. lol. I called her to wish her a happy bday and we were disagreeing about something trivial, no big deal, then all of a sudden she raises her voice and said, "I'm FIFTY years old, I KNOW what I'm talking about!" Whoa! Downhill ever since.

Back to the original topic, it's really hard to turn your back on immediate family no matter how bad it affects us. Some people simply will not change so we have to accept it and smile through our teeth.