5804298 Active Systems XL18I TRANE 4TTX8036A1 4TXCB036BC3 890 740 *UD2B080A9V3 33800 12.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 256

I looked up the matching AHRI number. This appears to be the XV80. I have to ask why not the high eff XV95 in a 60 K size? And you realize this system does not qualify for the Fed Tax Credit plus you take a haircut on full BTUs for a 3 ton condenser? Just so you know.

I assume dealer wants to install Trane's 803 or identical HW Mdl #8321.

3 major features you lose

DOD dehumidify on demand which you mentioned
True two stage furnace staging based on demand where thermostat controls the staging not a timer which will throw you into high stage whether needed or not
And controlling auxiliary components like a humidifier without the need for a separate control.

Yes the IAQ costs more. I believe there is a model that interfaces with Internet connectivity.

IMO

I certainly wish I could go with XV95 but my understanding is because furnace is in unconditioned space, attic, XV95 is not an option.

What type system would you recommend?

Thanks in advance for your help and knowledge Tigerdunes.

OK

Understood. I assume your dealer is aware of the XV80 80 K model with a 21" width footprint. I don't know if that would work or not but certainly worth discussing.

Using that furnace allows for a wide variety of condenser/evap coil combinations that do qualify and meet the 13 EER/16 SEER threshold for the Fed Tax Credit. I just don't like leaving that on the table. Again dealer will need to check sizes again both attic and furnace/evap coil.

Then and only then will you know if exploring other brands/options is worth it.

IMO

Yes, we did discuss 21" width but because of current duct work/sizing off current furnace (14.5") the 21" just does not work, again unfortunately.

Sorry for your situation.

You will have to decide if you should explore other brands that offer a smaller footprint. I would.

IMO

Not as sorry as I am!

What other brands would you suggest?

I would call a Carrier or Bryant dealer.

The Infinity 80 is comparable to the XV80.

The Infinity 80 Mdl 58CV(A,X)070-12 would be plenty of BTU firepower and carries a 14.5" width footprint according to my information. Sister company Bryant has same furnace also. This could be verified over the phone before wasting everyone's time with an on site visit. This furnace accepts a small number of 3 ton Performance 17 condenser/evap coil combinations that qualify for Fed Tax Credit and that I would recommend. Quite similar to the Trane system you are considering.

Let me know what you find out and if I can help you further.

IMO
Good Luck

Great, thank you for the info and help!

I'll keep you posted.

Received quote from Bryant dealer for AHRI# 6370089.

Because no current rebates (until Sept) the quote was significantly more (18.8%) than Trane AHRI# 5804298.

6370089 Active Systems EVOLUTION SERIES PURON AC BRYANT HEATING AND COOLING SYSTEMS 187BNA036****D CNPV*3717AL*+UI 1050 840 315(A,J)AV036070 36000 13.00 17.00 1 RCU-A-CB 256 Yes

A nice system no doubt.

I assume the Evolution controller was included in the quote.

Ask dealer to quote the 127B AC Preferred two stage condenser and drop the Evolution Controller for the Carrier Thermidistat. Make certain he understands the Carrier Edge Thermidistat. With those changes and the Fed Tax Credit, the difference to the Trane quote should be much narrower.

6367342 Active Systems PREFERRED SERIES PURON AC BRYANT HEATING AND COOLING SYSTEMS 127ANA036****B CNPV*3717AL* 1005 840 315(A,J)AV036070 36000 13.00 16.50 1 RCU-A-CB 264 Yes

I assume the dimensional footprint of this furnace is acceptable.

Post back and let me know what you find out.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Fri, Aug 16, 13 at 10:20

OK, I have new proposals after eliminating original because of BTU "hair cut" as pointed out by TD. Thank you! This has been very educational.

1. AHRI# 4792315 w/XL950 stat, 5.3% more than #2 but 2.2% less than #3.

2. AHRI# 6367342 w/Evolution stat, baseline

3. AHRI# 6370089 w/Evolution stat, 7.6% more than #2

I've included Trane rebate, local utility rebate, Fed and State tax credit in comparing bottom line total cost.

Thoughts/comments?

2.
6367342 Active Systems PREFERRED SERIES PURON AC BRYANT HEATING AND COOLING SYSTEMS 127ANA036****B CNPV*3717AL* 1005 840 315(A,J)AV036070 36000 13.00 16.50 1 RCU-A-CB 264 Yes

1.
4792315 Active Systems XL20I TRANE 4TTZ0036B1 4TXCB004CC3 1090 620 *UD2B080A9V3 36000 12.50 17.25 1 RCU-A-CB 253

3.

6370089 Active Systems EVOLUTION SERIES PURON AC BRYANT HEATING AND COOLING SYSTEMS 187BNA036****D CNPV*3717AL*+UI 1050 840 315(A,J)AV036070 36000 13.00 17.00 1 RCU-A-CB 256 Yes

I have listed in order of price, low to high. I assume the Fed Tax Credit has been included in the Bryant quotes as the Trane quote does not qualify. I believe the cheapest is the Bryant configuration that I suggested and still like the best. You might see what the deduct would be from Bryant dealer for dropping the Evolution controller and going to Carrier Thermidistat.

What is dollar difference between the two Bryant quotes? BTW, are you reusing existing lineset or have dealers quoted new?

All of these are nice systems. I really don't like 80% eff furnaces for today but understand the reason for your application. Have you given any thought to upgrading to a HP condenser and leveraging electric cost to nat gas cost? If you give me your rates both electric and nat gas, I will give you some preliminary numbers as far as comparison. You should at least look at the numbers.

Anything on a filter cabinet for filtering return air?

IMO

Yes, tax credits and rebates applied to appropriate systems. The price difference on Evolution vs Edge stat is $87. I know you like the HW VP IAQ for Trane systems, not so for Bryant/Carrier?

The dollar difference on Bryant quote is $582. Unfortunately, reusing existing line-set because no accessibility to run new lines unless I want to see lines running down the side of house, which I don't.

Have not considered HP but open to suggestions. I've listed info from electric/gas bill below. Hope this is what you are referring too.

Electric
Basic Service Charge 10.75
Energy Charge 0.07949/kWh
Electric DSM 0.00358/kWh
Electric Fuel Adj 0.00420/kWh
Enviro Surcharge 2.22%

Gas
Basic Service Charge 13.5
Gas Distribution 0.26419/ccf
Gas Supply Component 0.53324/ccf
Gas Supply Component 0.55168/ccf
Gas DSM 0.01761/ccf

No room for filter cabinet. This home is very low quality builder grade design and construction with extremely limited ability for upgrades.

Just to be clear why the two different gas supply charge?. I suppose I will take an average.

I will use 1000 KWHs for electric and 100 therms for nat gas just for comparison purposes. I will use 2.75 COP for HP eff which is on conservative side. Of course on nat gas, 80% efficiency.

About $.095 KWH for electric, about $.0096 therm for nat gas.

Cost per 100,000 btu of useable heat
Heat pump: $1.01
Natural gas: $1.16

While the HP is cheaper to operate down to temp balance point, I certainly don't believe the leverage is enough to justify the upgrade. I wouldn't. You have cheap nat gas relative to electric. I would stay with the AC condenser.

I would verify the size of existing lineset and what the manufacturer spec is for new AC condenser.

Bryant dealer is either giving you a great price on Evolution controller or a poor deduct down to Bryant/Carrier thermidistat. Price diff should be more than $87.

As far as thermostat, I don't like the XL950 for Trane system quoted. I would prefer the HW VP IAQ. Should be less expensive. For Bryant Evolution furnaces, the top choice is the Evolution controller hands down.

Hope this helps.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Mon, Aug 19, 13 at 16:00

Funny, I was wondering the same exact thing and have no idea why 2 different line items. IâÂÂm guessing itâÂÂs a tiered cost structure, again no idea. ItâÂÂs funny and scary what you find when digging into something. Like new HVAC systemâ¦

According to dealer, current line-set is ok to use and flush. Definitely not my preference!

On stat, I may have misunderstood your suggestion. The 83 difference is between Bryant Evolution Control SYSTXBBUID01-B and Bryant Preferred Series T6-PRH. But you are suggesting looking at price difference between Bryant Evolution and Carrier Infinity Control, right?

Meeting Carrier dealer in morning. Any idea if/when Carrier/Bryant rebates announced?

No, you understood correctly about the stats.

I did ask you though the price difference between the two different Bryant systems. The only difference on the equipment is the two stage Evolution condenser and the two stage Preferred condenser. Performance/efficiency numbers are basically the same. Noise would be slightly higher with the Preferrred model but inconsequential and definitely much lower and quieter to what you have. Still like option #2 best. I assume the width footprint is OK.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Mon, Aug 19, 13 at 11:28

Surely the dealers if an authorized and participating dealer should know the details of rebates by now. Usually it it is in effect no later beginning end of August through November.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Mon, Aug 19, 13 at 12:21

Another option to consider after meeting Carrier dealer.

AHRI# 6405563, $7,462

Quote includes Infinity stat and drum rollâ¦.4â filter cabinet. I questioned if there was enough room because IâÂÂve been told by others no but he said he can make it work.

This is the lowest quote received. AHRI# 6367342 quote is $7,613 without filter cabinet.

Thoughts?

6405563 Active Systems INFINITY 17 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ANB736A**31 CNPV*3717AL*+UI 1050 840 58CV(A,X)070-12 36000 13.00 17.00 1 RCU-A-CB 256 Yes

Actually a little better condenser and quieter. If you are confident in this dealer , then go with it.

BTW, did you ask about any applicable Carrier rebates? Dealer is on Carrier dealer list?

Just curious, how did the Bryant and Carrier quotes stack up to the Trane XV80 quotes?

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Tue, Aug 20, 13 at 12:49

Yes, dealer is listed as Factory Authorized and he mentioned Cool Cash before I asked.

Working on consolidating and itemizing quotes from everyone. A lot of moving parts: Fed tax credit, state tax credit, utility rebate and manufacture rebate. Depending on system, any combination of those things. Will post when complete.

I am certainly NO expert nor claim to be but I have attempted to educate myself as much as possible over the last week and a half. Yes, my head is about to explode. Using HVAC-Calc Residential 4.0 TD has referenced before, the program estimates heat gain/loss of 35,433/61,285.

Looking at OUTPUT capacity for Carrier 58CV(A,X):

070-12: High 54,000 Low 35,000
090-16: High 71,000 Low 47,000

% of Meeting Loss

070-12: High -11.9% Low -42.9%
090-16: High 15.9% Low -23.3%

WouldnâÂÂt 090-16 better match heat loss vs 070-12? Am I missing something or over analyzing?

Thanks.

Maybe TMI and over analyzing .

I think your heat gain/loss is too high.

For a home your size even with average insulation properties, you should be fine on heating with the 70 K furnace. What design temps both inside and outside, cooling and heating did you use?

What does dealer say? Have you asked them to perform a heating load calc so you can compare? I would.

BTW, you didn't answer. How did the Trane quotes stack up to the Carrier and Bryant quotes?

Post back.

IMO

For design temps:

Outside: I used avg high/low temps since 2000 from NCDC website which are 99 and 7 but I rounded to 100 and 10. There was typo, I had 105 instead of 100 for summer. Ooops, that might change things!

Indoor: Summer temp 68, winter temp 72 and RH 50.

New numbers with corrected typo: Gain is 32,632 and loss is same 61,285.

I know the âÂÂstandardâ indoor temp setting is 75/68 for summer/winter but that is not realistic for me. Especially in summer.

Dealer is very comfortable with 70K, especially with variable speed and referred me to the equipment size guarantee on estimate.

Trane quotes with various A/C models (3-Ton) but same XV80 80K furnace:
AHRI# 4792315, XL-20: $8,019 net of state tax credit (no Fed tax credit) and utility rebate.
AHRI# 5804298, XL-18: $7,365 net of utility rebate.
AHRI# 5858127, XL-16: $7,927 net of utility rebate.
AHRI# 5806382, XR-17: $7,465 net of utility rebate.
AHRI# 5866651, XR-16: $7,767 net of utility rebate.

Bryant quotes with 3-ton A/C models and Evolution Plus 80V 88K furnace:
AHRI# 6367344, Preferred: $7,466 net of tax and utility rebate.
AHRI# 6370090, Evolution: $8,148 net of tax and utility rebate.

Same A/C but using Evolution Plus 80V 66K furnace:
AHRI# 6367342, Preferred: $7,613 net of tax and utility rebate.
AHRI# 6370089, Evolution: $8,195 net of tax and utility rebate.

Current system/quote in the lead, Carrier:
AHRI# 6405563, Infinity 17 A/C, Infinity 80 variable speed 66K with filter cabinet and Infinity stat: $7,462 net of tax credits and âÂÂrebates.âÂÂ

UKF

Not concerned with cooling, puzzled about the heating calc results though.

What design temps did you use?

If you are comfortable with the Carrier dealer, I would go with the last quote.

I would ask for the infinity controller WiFi model, latest model.

My experience says you will be fine with the Infinity 80 70 K model.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Wed, Aug 21, 13 at 10:08

Thank you for your help and suggestions, very beneficial!

Did search for model number on latest Infinity WiFi controller. Is it SYSTXCCITW01? Want to make sure to get correct one.

That's my understanding...

TD