Oh--another thought I had was to switch the refrig and double ovens as is in the newest layout, but have the ovens in the corner since I have the wallspace in that corner.

Make sure you have enough room/clearance to open your oven doors. There may be a requirement in your oven installation instructions.

You have room for a 24" island...maybe 30", at most. I don't think this would be wide enough for 2 seats across the dinette end.

If people want drinks and snacks from the fridge, from which direction do they come? If you use the dinette often, you might prefer to swap the ovens and fridge. It's good to have the micro near it, though. Oh, I just saw the post that said you're already considering the swap. The angled oven is an interesting idea, but I don't think you realize how far they have to come out into the room to make that work, so you'd lose part of your valuable counter to the left of the cooktop.

Ok, have to ask - what was it about your original plan that wouldn't work out like you wanted

I would also switch the ovens and fridge.

I don't 'know if you have room for seating at that island (it's drawn one way onthe elevation and another on the footprint), but even if you do, I wouldn't want to sit with my back to the cooktop or the sink -- especially bad traffic points for the cook too.

If you bake much, make sure your island sets up as a baking area. You don't have enough room either side of the cooktop to handle a mixer and ingredients. It looks like about 2 feet on either side, and that isn't a lot for plating or the ingredients you are working with at the cooktop either -- especially since both sides are closed in.

If you have your cooktop on one side of the island and the sink on the other, you need to have a prep sink in the island or you will forever be walking around that island -- the "barrier island" as it has been dubbed.

My "before" was somewhat similar to your first drawing, but the double ovens were where you have the fridge, the fridge was about where it says 4'3", there is an exterior door inthat corner between the fridge and sink wall and no island seating. My micro was next to the ovens, hung so low and deep that the counter space was useless except to catch papers and clutter and there wasn't enough room at the end to be useful.

We took out the corner pantry and moved the ovens down to that corner. We slid the opening to the dining room over so that we got a longer run between the doorways. That wall has a tall utility cabinet, a rolleout pantry, pantry tower and the fridge -- all storage.

The wall with the sink is just the sink, DW(s) and drawer cabinets on either end with uppers for dish storage above. The oven wall has 4 ft for my baking area, the cooktop and then 2 ft with the micro below the counter. We put a prep sink in the island and use it constantly.

This layout has worked very well. We have cooking and cleaning spearated, storage consolidated and we can prep and work on both sides of the island. The pantry is both a personal preference and a cost consideration. DH was sold on the rollouts and pullout tower, but I also liked the shallow closet types with sliding doors - wood or glass (frosted or ribbed).

If you didn't have the pantry sticking out, you could do something I could not -- extend the wall that backs to the dining room and put a range on that wall. Then, the possibility of seating at the island on the side opposite the sink might make a little more sense. Anyone seated could be facing the cook at the sink and island prepping or at the range. Use the wall behind for your tall storage and fridge. Put the fridge on the dinette end -- not behind the island seats.

Rambling thoughts... hope something there helps more than it confuses the issue.

Depending where the cooktop or range was (it's not marked?), the original plan is MUCH better (except that the island seating is on the wrong side).

See that door to the dining room? Energy (and foot traffic) will enter the room there, and proceed straight past the island.

You do not want to have to cross that "ley line" with a hot pan, or chopped veggies.

You want all your true work areas to be on the right side of the diagram.

And in fact, you want them to be on the SAME side of the room. You need to have sink and stove not that far apart. In design 2, your island is a big barrier to your work flow, when it's food-prep time.

Having the oven on the far side of the room wouldn't bother me (most stuff that goes in the oven, goes in a stays there till the timer rings). But I don't ever want to have to walk around something to get from the sink to the cooktop.

I'd rather have the sink or cooktop on the island (though of course that brings up ventilation issues, etc.) i think if your kitchen, I'd lean toward having the stove on the wall next to the dining room door.

(and in fact, why are you having ANY seating at that island? You have a dining room AND a dinette--skip the bar seating. People want to keep you company, they can sit at the dinette. I don't think you have enough room to have people sitting in the middle of the room anyway.)

I agree that the kitchen is a bit small to have people sitting in there.
Try to think of two typical meals and how you'd cook them. I tried to "cook" yesterday's meals in your layout (blueberry pancake and turkey sausage breakfast; spaghetti with meatballs & sauteed spinach with garlic & pinenuts) and really, really got stuck on how I was going to carry that pot of boiling noodles over to the sink to drain them, past my kids sitting at the island!
2nd inconvenience was the full lap around the island to get the fresh stuff out of the fridge and over to the sink to wash and then back to the stove to cook.
Whatever you decide to do, don't put a side-by-side in that corner or you'll hate it forever!

She said: ".--but there would be a small sink added to the island, if we keep the island"

So I think with a prep sink in the island that would eliminate the "barrier" island problem while cooking. I think between the fridge (after it is swapped with the ovens) and the cooktop would be a great place for it.

I would be tempted to scrap the island and go for a peninsula connected to the sink side for better traffic flow and to keep the seating out of the main work zones of the kitchen. I say this because you seem to have some of the problems with creating a "barrier" island that I have, and even though I'm not as crazy about the peninsula from an aesthetic standpoint, functionally I think it really does beat the island in a small space.

You just don't have a large enough area to make a great eat-in island. I am also concerned that the island seems to direct traffic from that doorway right down the path where you have the cooktop and ovens. For safety reasons, I like the fridge and ovens swapped, although for work flow, I prefer the current arrangement.

I have to admit, the big beautiful island was more for looks. I love to bake, and I thought the chairs at the island would be perfect for my 3 kids to help out. I do know that the island is a tight fit, and that's what I was trying to fix.

The problem with my first plan was that I decided on double ovens and a cooktop and there wasn't really a practical place for either in the initial design.

So yes, IF we have an island I know that I'd need a prep sink on the island. I do see how the island itself is a barrier. If only my kitchen could've been completely open to the great room...

I see how switching the fridge with the double ovens is a wise idea. Even just unloading groceries, getting drinks...thanks for making me think of these things, because otherwise I don't!!

If we do the peninsula where the sink is, do you think this creates a problem with incoming traffic from the great room or mudroom??

And, where would be a good place for the microwave (not on a countertop)??

I know it doesn't give you an island, but it does make for a very workable plan...

- Protected work zone for the cook,
- room for kids to go to the fridge without getting in the way,
- wonderful corner pantry, and
- large prep space facing the dinette area and open space to the right.

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This one gives you your island back, but it just isn't as convenient.

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Sweeby, it's like you were reading my mind. I have to say, I really prefer the peninsula work flow, which is kind of a bummer for me because I've been working very hard to fit in a beautiful eat-in island in my 14'X16' kitchen without sucess since September (possibly why I recognized the problems inherent in the "Great Barrier Island" concept).

I recall reading somewhere that you need a minimum of 15 feet in width to do a kitchen with cabs on either side of an island. 2, 2 ft. deep sections of cabs, 2, 42" aisles, that leaves 4 ft for island. I think to only have a 42" walkway behind the seating is not alot, particularly when the seats would be in front of a key work zone. Imagine someone sitting at the island and you're trying to either work at the sink with the DW open or work at the cooktop if that's the side the seats are on. It's just tight with the seating. If you really have your heart set on an island, maybe consider no seating, as has already been mentioned.

would it be terrible to have 2 seats at the end of the island (dinette side), and make it no more than 3ft wide?

3' is too crowded for two seats. You *may* be able to squeeze two seats in a 3.5' island, if it were to fit.

I have to say though....I really like sweeby's penninsula layout. You'll just have so much more usable space with it, and much more seating too.

I think the only things I am questioning with the peninsula is: (1)will seats block the walkway with traffic flow through kitchen from mudroom and/or great room?? (2) would the sink be too far away from the stove top if I keep my stovetop on the wall withfridge & ovens? Here is the look I was attempting to achieve with the stovetop and area surrounding it...

Re: 3'-wide island w/ two seats at the end...it does sound tight. I have a friend whose peninsula is way too close to her fridge, and yet she has two simple 4-legged, round-seated stools tucked away under her overhang. It's pretty rare to see anybody sit there (and when they do, you can't open the fridge), but it's not a bad place for the kids to sit when they're cutting out cookies or whatever. Hers is what it is, but I sure wouldn't design it that way. For yours, I think the flow looks better w/ the peninsula. I also wonder about having those two stools so close to that prep sink (would it splash/spray? or would you move it down to the middle of the island .

My existing 1960's kitchen has the peninsula design very similar to what Sweeby posted above (except that my cooking part of the kitchen is about 9'x10', and there's no sink on the peninsula -- it's just countertop). I was pretty happy to see this design here, because I've always loved my peninsula...I call it "the hot corner" because it's where everything happens in my kitchen...the kids pull chairs over from the table when they want to help me cook (the 4- and 7-yr-old...the 10-yr-old comes over to my side). The chairs block that lane of traffic (we have that same lane and it's very busy...too busy for full-time stools, but for the few times a week those chairs are there, I can live w/ it. It's also where guests stand and chat when we have company...on that other side of the peninsula. It would be really nice to be able to fit a few stools there for that purpose.

Anyway, I will watch your plans with interest! Have fun!

I like the pennisula in Sweeby's post much better than any of the island plans. The work flows better and the kids can sit and help with cookies and such without being in the way while you can be on the oven side and have room to move, place hot cookie sheets, etc. If you think the seating would stick out too much, just bring your penninsula in a bit -- but you've got more room there with less competition for it than inside the kitchen.

meckam - I am going to take the dissenting view. If you have your heart set on an Island - by all means do an island. Personally I prefer island set ups more than penisula setups.

Second - while 42" is the recommended aisle space - I can tell you may folks have smaller. We personally have 36" wide aisles to fit our island in and have no problem with them. Now we do not have seating built in to the island - so you do need to take that into account - what I would suggest is in your 2nd plan shifting the non-seating side of the island 3" to 6 " to the left - making that aisle 36" to 39" and increasing the aisle space on the seating side.

As to all the discussion about barrier islands - I am sorry but in a kitchen your size I scoff at the idea of the island being a barrier. Its not that big of a space to impede flow. Sure, you may have to walk an extra 2 or 3 feet but its not like this is huge kitchen with everything spread out. We have had the same discussion recently with 3 different KDs we have met with to work up a prelim plan for redoing our kitchen. Our layout will stay pretty much the same as today - and our work / cabinet area is roughly the same size as yours. All agreed our island would pose no problem to work flow given - at most an extra couple steps.

I believe strongly in doing what you want - not what the "guidelines" say. It appears you have your heart set on an island - you have room to make one work - go for it

The problem I see with putting your cooktop on the left wall is that the dining room door funnels foot traffic directly behind the cook at the cooktop. IMO, a busy 'road' directly behind a busy cook is a recipe for accidents. The penninsula protects the cook from foot traffic.

Can you move the dining room doorway?
Or is that a little-used dining room, so a low-traffic road?

Also, you'll want the fridge to be easily accessible, which puts it (in my view) on the dinette side. And there's that half-wall on the right...

To be honest, the dining room will likely serve as a playroom until my husband finishes off the bonus room above the garage (after we move in, hopefully right away, but we know how that goes :)

Yes, I do suppose the doorway to the dining room could be moved. Another thought I had, whether island or peninsula, was having the layout like sweeby's first layout, but lose the cabinets on the dining room wall to make it more like a galley kitchen. Then I could get the look I love with the cooktop centered with cabinets surrounding for a symmetrical look. Would it be a mistake to lose that span of cabinets? It would be about 4' of cabinets lost. (Total kitchen area is 15x13 plus dinette.) Thanks so much for helping me figure this darn kitchen out!!

Radical me here . . . and I have not drawn it out. But what about . . .

1. Move doorway to right. Far to the right (against the wall). Put a message center along the wall/in the half wall area)
2. Add cabinets along the old doorway area (making an "l" shape). or put the cooktop along the old doorway wall.
3. Put in an island that has great storage, and/or the sink/dw in the island. (or both!)
4. Do not have cabinets along the right hand wall - opening it up for a good size island with seating. If you need more storage, add some under the dinette benches, or think about how big the pantry needs to be.

FWIW!

Nica

So it sounds like focal-point range is a HIGH priority --
That's good to know.
Island too --

I'm not loving it, but...

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Thanks everyone, again!! I love some of the ideas, so I guess it's back to the drawing board one LAST time :) Sweeby, thanks especially for your help--seeing things visually is so much better for me. I appreciate all your help and suggestions!!!