replacing a/c with heat pump

15 years ago

i have a 1999 10 seer 3.5ton unit (coleman) and the a-coil is bad. i have been told this is a good time to get a heat pump. for a american standard heritage 14 seer 3.5 ton model# 4a6h4042b1 with thermostat model# yth9421c1002 installed 5056.52 is this a good deal?

they also quoted a complete gas furnance. freedom 95 2stg variable speed 80,000 w/16 seer 4 ton heat pump thermostat humidifer and a accuclean b filter installed 12781.67 is this a better deal. i plan on staying here 15-20yrs

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Comments (7)

tigerdunes
15 years ago
danny

what area of country do you live?

what is electric rate? any special rate incentive from your electric utility for HP heating?

what is nat gas cost?

do you currently use nat gas for other uses than heating?

what AmStd evap coil is being quoted?

post back.

TD
ryanhughes
15 years ago
"they also quoted a complete gas furnance. freedom 95 2stg variable speed 80,000 w/16 seer 4 ton heat pump thermostat humidifer and a accuclean b filter installed 12781.67 is this a better deal. i plan on staying here 15-20yrs"

Have them swap out the 16 SEER heat pump for a 15 SEER Heritage 15. It's a better all-around unit in my opinion AND you can setup the thermostat to dehumidify on demand by slowing down the blower (something that is very difficult to do with the Heritage 16).

What coil is being quoted? It would have a model number like 4TXC...
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Your electric rates are extremely high. Guessing you are in the upper Northeast. I pay 15 cents per kw-hr in Maryland, no tiered rates. Compare the cost of 1 million btu's of heat for heat pump vs oil furnace. Oil furnace w/oil at $3 per gallon, 80% efficient furnace: (1,000,000 / 139,000 btu per gallon) x $3 / .8 = $26.98 Heat pump with electricity at $.22 kw-hr, C.O.P. = 3.25 at 40F ambient: (1,000,000 / 3414 btu per kw) x $.22 / 3.25 = $19.82 The heat pump is 26% cheaper for the same 1 million btu's if you pay $3 gallon for oil and your oil furnace is 80% efficient. Insert your actual oil price and furnace efficiency for a more accurate cost comparison. As ambient temps rise from the 40F example, the C.O.P. (Coefficient of Performance) of the heat pump rises, and it is even cheaper to operate. The heat pump can indeed be used with an old oil furnace, they just can't run at the same time (furnace temps are too high). Same goes with a heat pump and gas furnace. The only time the furnace will run along with the heat pump is when the pump is in a defrost cycle. The furnace will run to temper the cold air from the indoor coil, while the outdoor coil gets hot refrigerant to defrost it. The VisionPro 8000 Series t-stat will run the heat pump as primary heat, then if the heat pump can't keep up with the indoor setpoint, it will turn the heat pump off and run the oil furnace to setpoint. You can also determine the switchover temp with the VisionPro if you have an outdoor temp probe for the t-stat. The contractor has to be comfortable with the heat pump install with an oil furnace. Maybe he doesn't do too many pumps in your area. Good luck.
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Based on the information you've provided, sounds like the York quote is the best option, but I don't agree with the 80% modulating furnace. That's a high-end furnace, and going with the 80% version doesn't make sense to me, especially in our region where it can get cold at times (I'm in Maryland). Is PVC venting an issue? The York Affinity is a nice line of equipment. American Standard isn't bad, either, but the equipment that the York rep. is quoting is better in my opinion. 3 tons is a bit much for your cooling load, but it's what you'd have to go with if you went with the Affinity line. The 2.5-ton Latitude unit would be the better fit. With the low stage on the Affinity approximately meeting the cooling load at design conditions (which won't be met on all days), I don't think you'll be getting those long run times that you should with a 2-stage system. Ask the York rep. if he can quote the CZB or YZB 2.5-ton single-stage Affinity unit with a 90+ efficient v/s furnace (modulating or 2-stage). Not sure where the American Standard rep. came up with his sizing. Do you like it cold in your house (68-70)? Did the York rep. do the load calculation?
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"The two contractors below came up with a 2.5 size but heat pumps only come in whole sizes. Am I over sizing the unit if I go with the 3 ton heat pump?" The heat pumps you were quoted are 2-stage models. All 2-stage heat pumps come in whole ton sizes. You would have to get a single stage heat pump in order to get the 2.5 ton size. I am in central NJ so my climate is very similar to yours. Did you review the load calculations? Is the 1800 sq. feet all on the second floor below attic space? Given attic poor insulation (R19 or less?), the 2.5 ton may be slightly under sized. In my opinion I don't think a 2-stage 3 ton heat pump is over sized. We would have to look at the data sheet, but most likely the lower stage will be less than 2.5 tons. It is difficult to comment on the price because of the required duct work. It sounds there is a lot of labor involved in the new duct work and attic installation. Contractors don't like to break out line item cost. Getting one price is very common. You have gotten 8 bids, so you compare prices. You did the right thing by rejecting people who don't even go into the attic. The answer you other questions, I think 2-stage equipment is worth the extra money. It is going to do a better job of lowering the humidity in the summer. It should also be quieter when running on the low stage while you are sleeping. I think suspending the air handler from the rafters is the best way to minimize noise. I don't have experience with attic installed equipment, but it seems logical you would cut down the vibration from the ceiling. You want R8 insulated ducts in the attic. The main duct should be metal and all joints should have mastic. The flexible ducts should have no kinks. If it looks bad to your eye then it is probably bad. You are doing the right thing by investing in improved duct work. I like Carrier over Lennox. You also want a 2-stage thermostat. Find out the model number and make sure it is in the quote.
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"In terms of the Bosch I doubt it would make much difference if you sized it for heating... unless you needed more heat than a 5 ton unit can produce." Name plate capacity of a heat pump refers to cooling mode only. The term "ton" refers to a ton of refrigeration which is 12,000 BTU/hr. Heating capacity is usually referred to in BTU/hr. The heating capacity of a heat pump declines as a function of decreasing temperature, so it can't be labelled without defining the outdoor conditions. Stated otherwise, a 5 ton heat pump does not have the same heating capacity as a 60,000 BTU/hr furnace--the capacity of which is independent of outdoor conditions. "However, the Bosch can deliver heat down to 5F." That statement can be a bit misleading. While a particular heat pump may be able to extract useful heat down to 5F, that doesn't guarantee it will be able to do so at a sufficient rate to meet the required heating demand without supplemental (backup) heating e.g., electric resistance heat strips. When evaluating a heat pump in heating mode, we're interested in determining the balance point--the outdoor temperature at which the heating load of the home and heating capacity of the system are equal. Below that temperature supplemental heating will be required. For most heat pump systems and most homes (excluding uninsulated homes and super-insulated homes) the balance point usually falls in the 30 F to 35 F range. To be clear, that doesn't mean a particular heat pump won't extract useful heat below that temperature---it just means the amount of heat won't be sufficient to meet the total heating load required and backup heat will be needed. I suggest you consult with an HVAC design professional who can calculate the heating and cooling loads for your particular home and your particular climate zone. Those can be used to select the appropriate equipment and to design the duct work if you elect to go with a ducted system. And, for what it's worth, mike_home has been a contributor to this forum for a number of years. In general, his posts suggest that he knows what he doesn't know. That's more than I can say for some "professionals" here on houzz.com
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dannyz62
Original Author
15 years ago
coil on the 14seer (4txcd065as3hca)
same on the 16seer
i was just quoted 5600.76 on a trane XL15I 3ton i dont know the coil #
the trane guy did a load calculation it said i needed 2.52 ton system.
ryanhughes
15 years ago
Oversizing is bad for comfort, efficiency, and equipment lifespan, and doing a load calculation is a very good sign of a competent contractor. Whatever system you go with, ask the contractor to use a coil that is ARI-rated with that matchup. Good luck. What does the $5600 include besides the A/C and coil?
dannyz62
Original Author
15 years ago
new line set, pad with snow pedistals, thermostat and installation with a n.a.t. certified installer
ryanhughes
15 years ago
Hard to get 15 SEER without a v/s blower, though. Do you have a gas furnace now? Might not be a bad idea to replace it at the same time to get a better deal and a new furnace with a warranty.
garymunson-2008
15 years ago
Here in Cent Fl, the best combination, in my opinion, is a 13 SEER heat pump with a heat recovery unit. The HRU will raise the effective SEER to about 15. The equipment savings on the lesser efficient heat pump will more than pay for the HRU and you get free hot water from then on. The claim is that the higher efficiency heat pumps (14 SEER +) don't generate enough heat at the compressor for the HRU to function properly although I haven't been able to document that with instrumentation. Also, a reasonably tight house may not benefit from the ability to slow down the fan speed for dehumidification since a properly sized unit will probably maintain a comfortable level anyway. The cost of repairing a vari-speed fan after warranty is horrible...and the fans generally have only a 1 year as opposed to the longer warranty on the condensing unit. I've seen many more vari-speeds fail than standard fans. The bill is usually over $1000 as opposed to several hundred. The combination of a 13 SEER with HRU is providing a $130 monthly electric bill in our new 2000 sq ft house keeping the temp at 76.

replacing a/c with heat pump

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replacing a/c with heat pump

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tigerdunes

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dannyz62Original Author

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