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msphynx

Help with Trane Quote

msphynx
14 years ago

i currently have a home built in 1995 two story. it has two AC units tempstar HE5000 in it model # CASS24VKC1 the furnaces are in the attic (there are two) one is 50kbtu the other 75kbtu (so the sales guy said)

so..here are the quotes for two systems in my home.

I'll first go over the two systems hardware then below i'll review what they are doing regardless of the system selected.

System #1.

TRANE 16XLI

16.50 seer AFUE 95% 2 ton

BTU 60,000 EER 13

AC Model #4TTX6024

COIL # TE47636D175B22

Furnace TUH2B060A9V3 (he stated this is the 92% efficient 2 stage XV90 top of the line model)

High efficiency filter TFD17SALFR (Trane CleanEffects)

System #2. (the only difference from system #1 is the AC unit, the coil and furnace remain the same)

TRANE 15XLI

16.00 seer AFUE 95% 2 ton

BTU 60,000 EER 13

AC Model #4TTX5024

COIL # TE47636D175B22

Furnace TUH2B060A9V3 (he stated this is the 92% efficient 2 stage XV90 top of the line model)

High efficiency filter TFD17SALFR (Trane CleanEffects)

Now...here is what they will be doing regardless of the system selected.

1. Replace the complete system

2. replace freon lines for the new freon

3. replace thermostat with one that controls humidity and has circ fan control (they show model # TCONT803A and stated this is the trane 'comfort control)

4. Replace supply and air distribution boxes (with the tin ones my current ones are made out of something like foam board)

5. run new flue thru roof

6. replace secondary drain pan and add ezflo drain switch

7. two new condensor pads

8. insulate refrigerent suction lines

9. flush or evacuate refrigerent system

10. replace supply plenum

11. replace return plenum

12. mastic seal all plenums

13. new vent pipe through roof (new HE models use plastic or something instead of the metal like my old one??)

14. clean work area to customer satisfaction

15. install 2 condenstate drain pans with safety switch

16. new thermostate ( TCONT803A)

17. Remove all old equipment

18. meet code standards

WARRANTY

19. Standard Manufacturers warranty (not sure what tranes is)

20. 1 year from the company installing it

21. now...if i purchase their warranty and KEEP it active they will warranty it for LIFE

22. They also off a 5 yr performance and money back guarantee, they will repair, replace or refund of to 100% of the purchase price if it doesn't keep me comfortable or if i'm not satisfied with the system.

23. Lemon guarantee, if within 5 yrs the compressor fails, they replace the entire outdoor unit at no cost.

As I understand it the out the door price is:

System #1 - 17,700

System #2 - 16,800

I would get $700 per system from the Atlanta Gas Light Company ($1400.00 total)

and then I would max my tax rebate at 1500.00

The prices for the systems do not include any additional warranties. if i added those it would run me roughly $240 for both systems for 1 year and about $800 for both for 5 years. (in addition to current coverage) the warranty includes two annual tune up visits for the systems.

What are your thoughts on these prices and if they are high, what should i really expect to pay?

Comments (42)

  • tigerdunes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msphynx

    your location is the Hotlanta area?

    this quote is from a Trane authorized dealer?

    was a load calc performed?

    total size of home and each zone?

    these are Trane evap coils or third party mfg?

    why both systems located in attic?

    I see nothing special about the scope of work on the new install.

    do I understand correctly that cost is over $30K for both systems? if so, absolutely absurd.

    I generally think a dealer warranty is a waste of money.

    post back.

    IMO

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes in atlanta, trane dealer (coolray)

    Load calc...well he walked through accounted for each register and intake. looked at the pipe sizes off my units that are in the attic and said they appeared to be the correct sizes, then told me based on all he saw it looked good.

    house is approx 1600 sqft downstairs and maybe 1300-1500 upstairs

    the coil appears to be third party since i logged into trane to check on the certificate for tax purposes and they directed me to another site to get the certificate since they didn't recognize the coil so i'd say it's third party.

    my units in the attic are the furnances, the ac units of course are outside. i don't have a basement so attic is the only option.

    as for price, no the prices i gave are for two complete systems being replaced.

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  • veesubotee
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The XV90 was discontinued well over a year ago. That doesn't mean it's not a good furnace. I was interested in one as its outputs more closely matched my home's profile vs. the XV 95.

    It may be true in your case, but how would the contractor know as he didn't do a true heat calculation?

    You need to have that done as I suspect, you're in a high humidity area, and having a larger (3rd party) coil for higher SEER may sacrifice better humidity removal. The specifications of the system (cond. and coil) should at least equal those (sensible and latent cooling needs) of your house.

    Am curious about the warranty. I believe all mfgs. give a one year warranty on their units (parts, possibly labor) and most contractors will warrant their installation.

    V

  • tigerdunes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msphynx

    The furnace quoted is the two stg XV95. The XV90 was discontinued some time ago. see below.

    AFUE
    TUH2B060A9V3VA 40 17.5 28 37,700/58,000 96.7
    XV95 variable-speed, 2-stage downflow/horizontal furnace models Model Height (in.) Width (in.) Depth (in.) Nominal

    I would not have the XL16i condenser. Too problematic. The XL15i is a great condenser if sized correctly.

    I question the size of condenser for cooling. You need a load calc. in writing. how did existing two ton systems cool? did they maintain your inside comfort temp? did they ever run continuously?

    I would not have a third party coil period nor a dealer warranty. One PM visit/yr is enough.

    You might want to consider a high eff HP system for upstairs.

    I would not have the CleanEffects or any EAC-I prefer a good 4-5" pleated media filter cabinet.

    so with rebates and tax credit,$2900 off either system price?

    IMO

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    well the price is 16,800 for the 15xli and 17,700 with the 16xli.
    the rebates he shows are energy star rebates of 2k for the 15xli quote and 2700 for the 16xli quote.

    then i get $700 per system (1400.00) from AGL and the 1500 tax deduction.

    how much more would a heat pump cost and is this a good price?

  • tigerdunes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msphynx

    I do think pricing is reasonable.

    A high eff HP system for upstairs should not cost anymore and actually should be less. no venting would be required.
    you would need to check your breaker box to check capacity for backup heat strips.

    I do question your condenser sizing. You need a load calc. in writing. how did existing two ton systems cool? did they maintain your inside comfort temp? did they ever run continuously?

    A good 4-5" media cabinet should be less than 1/2 the cost of the CleanEffects. The CleanEffects as well as other EACs can be problematic if cleaning/maintenance schedule is not rigidly followed. Do you like going to your attic on a regular basis?

    IMO

  • tigerdunes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hmm...the heatpump should cost less since it's upstairs? Can you explain?

    You may have misunderstood. Yes, I would expect a high eff HP system with VS air handler to be less expensice than a high eff AC with VS furnace. My point is that an air handler located in the attic requires no venting like a furnace would.

    You will need to check with dealer about whether your electric service/breaker panel would require any upgrade to handle electric backup heat strips.

    "I'm sure he can throw some load calc numbers together, they probably don't mean anything if he didn't measure though correct?"

    yep, you have to be experienced with the software and take measurements to be accurate. usually takes 2-3 hrs to be performed correctly.

    If your old AC systems ever ran continuously during the summer AC mths for any long period of time, then that may not be normal and possibly could mean mechanical issues or you might be undersized.

    CleanEffects has nothing to do with a HP or Furnace. You can use on either and same is true on box 4-5" media air cabinet. There are third party brands like Honeywell and AprilAire. Trane makes a mdl as well called Perfect Fit. I would expect cost to be in the $350-$500 range on new installations. Certainly less expensive than the CleanEffects. Changeout of filter is easy and normally filters last up to one year.

    IMO

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    what is the possibility of me NOT having two systems but instead a single system that does both upstairs and downstairs as zones so if the upstairs is correct it's not running unless the downstairs isn't where we want it?
    would that be less expensive and better?

  • tigerdunes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msphynx

    certainly a possibility and worth looking into. normally it is difficult to retrofit a two story home with one system. you would need zoning controls. this would not be a project for the faint of heart. dealer would need to demonstrate experience with zoning controls. this might change your equipment selection. the downside? you might lose some degree of comfort/control plus you don't have the redundancy that you have with two systems. with one system problem, your whole home is down as far as HVAC.

    if you elect this route, I would recommend Carrier or Bryant since they have a complete integrated system including residential zoning controls under their umbrella. Trane would normally use a third party like Honeywell.

    IMO

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ok revised quote....

    i asked about the 15xli vs the 16xli seems to be 16 vs 16.50 seer and the 16xli seems to be hated on this forum. he did say both would perform humidity on demand as i inquired about the visionpro IAQ. he stated the TCONT803A will do just that with either the 15 or 16xli.

    so...the new quote is 16,039 this is the 15xli 4ttx5024
    the coil he changed to the 4TXCB025BC
    the furnace is the TUH2B060A9V3 (xv95?)
    also includes the HE filter TFD175ALFR
    and gives me a 4 yr warranty on top of the 1 year that comes with both systems.

    With the warranty they come out twice a year to check the system and perform maintenece on it, and as long as i keep it warrantied they cover all parts and labor.

    thoughts? i'm thinking we're ballpark to getting a deal struck, my gut tells me i might can push this down another $500 but not much more. what do you think?

    thanks,

  • ryanhughes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "he did say both would perform humidity on demand as i inquired about the visionpro IAQ. he stated the TCONT803A will do just that with either the 15 or 16xli."

    Then I'm afraid he's confused on what dehumidify on demand is. Dehumidify on demand is when the VisionPRO IAQ sends a signal to slow the blower down to around 80% to remove more moisture. The TCONT803 runs the air conditioner longer to remove humidity, and doesn't slow the blower down. So indeed the advantage lies with the IAQ. However, if he wants to use the TCONT803, I would not have a major problem with that, since it's still a good thermostat, other than the fact that it lacks the ability to remove moisture using the variable speed blower.

    The XL16i, based on the way it's wired, cannot take full advantage of the IAQ's ability to dehumidify on demand, so if you use the XL16i, I suggest keeping the TCONT803. Unless Trane has changed this (I know the all-communicating system can do DOD like the IAQ, but not the standard XL16i with XV95 as far as I know). One of the downfalls of the XL16i, along with its poor dehumidification in low stage (80% rough capacity in stage 1 doesn't allow for long enough runtimes, and latent capacity is not too great in low). The XL15i when used with the IAQ should dehumidify just as well if not better than the 16i.

  • tigerdunes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msphynx

    the XL15i is superior for dehumidification over the XL16i.
    I would not have the XL16i period.

    Ryan is correct. The HW VP IAQ has the "dehumidify on demand" feature;the 803 does not-handles dehumidification by overcooling, certainly not as sophisticated as the IAQ. not to quibble but if the choice is available, the HW VP IAQ is superior. Trane's stats are a weak link in their product line.

    I do prefer Trane's evap coil.

    Here is the matching AHRI number.
    1419231 Active Systems XL15I TRANE 4TTX5024A1 4TXCB025BC3 *UH2B060A9V3 25200 12.90 15.50 1 RCU-A-CB

    nice numbers. I remain concerned that you may be undersized on cooling.

    otherwise a nice system.

    IMO
    Good Luck!

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    is the trane aluminum coil the 4TXCB025BC3? everyone is saying trane is the coil to get but i haven't been able to find it on tranes site.

    also going with the xl15i puts me under 16 seer but my 95% furnance still qualifies me for the tax credit, will doing two systems like this still get me the full $1500 credit?

    I've asked them to perform a load calc or put it in writing since i want to avoid having them pull the system later when i'm not satisfied and they have to upgrade it.
    we'll see what happens. the guy said looking at my registers, pipes and all and his experience gave him a pretty good idea that my system was adequate for my house.

  • ryanhughes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "is the trane aluminum coil the 4TXCB025BC3? everyone is saying trane is the coil to get but i haven't been able to find it on tranes site."

    Yes, the 4TXC is the Trane Comfort Coil. Link below.

    "also going with the xl15i puts me under 16 seer but my 95% furnance still qualifies me for the tax credit, will doing two systems like this still get me the full $1500 credit?"

    Yes, if the furnaces are 95%.

    "a pretty good idea that my system was adequate for my house."

    Any comfort issues in the past with the previous two 2 ton units? Make sure they examine the ductwork to ensure adequate sizing as well.

    You're on the right track!

    Here is a link that might be useful: Trane Comfort Coil

  • tigerdunes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msphynx

    "the guy said looking at my registers, pipes and all and his experience gave him a pretty good idea that my system was adequate for my house."

    that's pure BS. Sorry...

    "is the trane aluminum coil the 4TXCB025BC3?"

    yep,that's it.

    you will get the credit on the furnace, not the AC condenser.

    better get a size guarantee in writing. keep in mind a load calc is good protection for both the dealer and the customer as far as correct sizing.

    what filter did you decide on?

    IMO
    Good Luck!

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "that's pure BS. Sorry... "

    Talked with him, i'm signing the paperwork and sending it in tonight, i'm writing at the bottom 'contingent on a proper load calc per manual J specs'
    The guy said he would be out this thursday to measure it all out. at most he speculates the upstairs might need a 2.5 ton at a cost of about $500 more he says. (is this price good?)

    As for the filter i'm going with the TFD175ALFR, i've found mostly positive things said about it.

    So my final system is 15xli 2 ton 4TTX5024, coil 4TXCB025BC and the furnace UH2B060A9V3.
    the TFD175ALFR (clean effects) filter and the TCONT803A thermostats.

    of course TWO systems.
    i didn't get any additional warranties i can do those later
    as i did the math and i wasn't getting any sort of break there.

    Stroke the check total 15,500 or 7,750 per system.

  • ryanhughes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "at most he speculates the upstairs might need a 2.5 ton at a cost of about $500 more he says. (is this price good?)"

    No, not a good price in my mind. He shouldn't charge you more than his equipment cost difference--what is changing besides the unit size and maybe refrigerant lineset size? If he wanted to potentially undersize it in the first place, he should eat the cost. My opinion.

    Your overall cost does not sound unreasonable, however. Before tax credit, correct?

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    so when they do a load calc, what numbers will i be given? I'm assuming i'll see a number for upstairs and another for downstairs perhaps a required BTU or something?

    So how then do I check for myself that the units are properly sized?

    Thanks for all the help, this place has been great! I'm holding off on the paperwork until tomorrow, going to run these numbers by one other dealer since the load test isn't occuring until thursday.

  • ryanhughes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You should get the adjusted btu requirement (heat load/heat loss) for both upstairs and downstairs taking into consideration the SHR (sensible heat ratio). 24,000 btu's = 2 tons, 30,000 btu's = 2.5 tons, and so on.

  • tigerdunes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msphynx

    as far as the load calc, you should be given a printout with the letterhead showing the software used to make the calculation. WrightSoft is the software I am familiar with. Can't recall the version-may be #8. Dealer will use your inside comfort level fot both cooling in summer and heating in winter as well as the outside temp for both cooling and heating. other variables are inside humidity, insulation poperties, shade, orientation of home, windows, sq footage, ceiling ht,etc. for Atlanta, I would use at least 96 deg for cooling. Heating is less important since you have a two stg furnace and I suspect you will rarely use the 2nd stg on the furnace. Details such as BTUs for cooling and heating will be broken out for each zone.

    I agree with Ryan.If you have to go up in size for cooling, the dealer's cost difference only would be acceptable. This would be insignificant, certainly not $500. Coil mdl size would change as well.

    not meaning to nitpick but these are my concerns.

    1. the size of the AC condensor
    2.you need a full understanding of homeowner's responsibility for maintenance/cleaning of the CleanEffects. As mentioned, I hope you enjoy visits to the attic. dealer will probably downplay this but it can be a PIA and good operation may be problematic if schedule/instructions are not followed.
    3.HW VP IAQ is superior to the TCON803 Trane stat for best dehumidification.
    4.I do think HPs are a good choice for your area/climate and the fact you have reasonable electric rates. However, that's your choice not mine.
    5.now is the time to address any hot/cold spots in your home.

    IMO
    Good Luck!

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "1. the size of the AC condensor"

    Thats the 2 ton unit right? you're thinking it might need to be larger?

    "2.you need a full understanding of homeowner's responsibility for maintenance/cleaning of the CleanEffects. As mentioned, I hope you enjoy visits to the attic. dealer will probably downplay this but it can be a PIA and good operation may be problematic if schedule/instructions are not followed."

    As I have read around here it's pretty much blow some of them off with compressed air and others you vaccum. Not really a big deal for me, i'm into 'preventative maintenance' so long it's not overwhelming.

    "3.HW VP IAQ is superior to the TCON803 Trane stat for best dehumidification. "

    He's feeding me the line ' That tstat is the one for the communicating equipment. The trane tcont803a model is the one for your system. The basic difference is that the 900 series will control a humidifier, which you will not have"

    Is this IAQ the 900 series?? Would any trane dealer have this available? How much should I expect my cost to increase/decrease if they swap out the 803a's for the IAQ (2 units)

    "4.I do think HPs are a good choice for your area/climate and the fact you have reasonable electric rates. However, that's your choice not mine. "

    Well...What would you recommend here. I wouldn't mind the heat pump, BUT...there is no way we can run 'additional' electrical as my breaker box is downstairs in what 'used to be' a garage that was renovated and closed in and is now part of the house a few years back. (no drywall cutting for me!) Plus what heatpump model would you go with and should it still match with the xv95 furnace?

    "5.now is the time to address any hot/cold spots in your home. "

    So this is basicly them possibly 'increasing or decreasing' line sizes and/or possibly adding additional vents? Really for downstairs i'm pretty much left with how it was built unless i want drywall work (nope)
    As for upstairs...well the masterbedroom is the warmest during summer while the other rooms are coldest, of course those are the kids rooms and their door stays closed while ours is open and the hallway / stairs is right there. There are no registers in the upstairs hall. they are all in each room.
    Any idea on approximate costs for changing say a single run up.down in size or making an additional run? Curious because if i have ballpark and i know they need to do five it's simple math. Or is this something that's 'included' in the new equipment cost?

    thanks,

  • tigerdunes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msphynx

    1.let's see what the load calcs show for both zones in cooling before upsizing to a 2 1/2 ton.

    2.I subscribe to the KISS principle. if you enjoy using your time going to the attic on a regular basis, then that's fine. who would do this if you weren't avatlable?

    3.The TCON900 stat supports only certain Trane systems, not yours. The HW VP IAQ has true "dehumidify on demand" feature;the 803 only overcools. big difference if superior dehumidification is a concern,especially for muggy atlanta days that are not very hot. can't really understand why Trane does not have the VP IAQ branded model since HW makes their stats. I bet they want one.

    4. forget the HP since it does not appear to be practical for your home except in a dual fuel application.

    5.if you have any hot/cold spots upstairs then those can be addressed. I assume you have several returns upstairs for good airflow movement. Correct? obviously, downstairs zone would be problematic. ductwork is cheap and costs for any changes/additions upstairs should be a couple of hundred dollars at most. you may need another supply to MBR or perhaps just a larger supply. What type of supply runs to your rooms do you have? Flex is cheap.

    IMO
    Good Luck!

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not sure of sizes, i 'think' he was saying mostly 12 inch and 10 inch. to give you an example of my rooms (and i'm doing this from memory....

    upstairs
    master - 1 intake, 1 output (12 inch i think) and it's the largest room upstairs (I could use better heat/cold in this room, of course my wife thinks it's due to the thermo being in the hall and the air going downstairs and all the upstairs rooms being closed except for our door.)

    master bath - 1 output

    Master closet - 1 output

    hall - nothing

    room 1 - 1 output, 1 intake (this room usually is pretty good though it can get toasty in winter)

    room 2 - 1 output, 1 intake, room can get the coldest when door is shut or hottest but really not that bad.

    room 3 - largest room after the master bedroom it has 1 out, 1 in and then i believe just 1 out in the closet (walkin)

    Thats pretty much the upstairs.

  • tigerdunes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msphynx
    where is the upstairs stat located?

    you might want to think about a return(s) for the hallway. this is an inside hallway?

    either add or see about a larger supply run for MBR.

    just a couple of thoughts. now is the time to address since you have dealer's attention.

    just from your description of comfort upstairs, you might need a 2 1/2 ton condenser. the load calcs will guide you. if you are borderline upstairs, then go with 2 1/2 ton.

    IMO
    Good Luck!

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "where is the upstairs stat located? "

    At the top of the stairs turn left and immeadiately to that left is the master bedroom and straight ahead would be the thermostat.

    "you might want to think about a return(s) for the hallway. this is an inside hallway? "

    yes its in the middle of the upstairs

    "either add or see about a larger supply run for MBR. "

    sorta what i was thinking as well.

    "just from your description of comfort upstairs, you might need a 2 1/2 ton condenser. the load calcs will guide you. if you are borderline upstairs, then go with 2 1/2 ton. "

    I'm actually going to get two more quotes, 1 today one tomorrow and they both are doing load calcs.

    can you tell me the ranges i need to see to know i need a 2 ton vs 2.5 vs 3 ton? is it just AC you size for or is it furnace, coil, all the above?

    thanks,

  • ryanhughes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Size for heating load and cooling load, so yes, for furnace and air conditioner. If you're between a 2 ton and 2.5 ton, 2.5 tons is appropriate to go with. They should adjust the calculated load from Manual J for your required sensible heat (SHR). Units are rated at 80* db temperature, so assuming you want to set your thermostat lower, your dealer would need to adjust for that. If they're proficient with load calcs, they should know all this.

  • tigerdunes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msphynx

    you already have return in the hallway? if not, you need one or perhaps another one.

    is hallway centrally located to the upstairs living areas?
    if so, thermostat should be relocated to the hallway but not underneath a drop down attic stairway.

    No, I can not see the need for a three ton but can a 2 1/2 ton AC for the upstairs. let's see what dealers come up with on load calcs for cooling. Your furnace size is good.

    IMO

  • ryanhughes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If installing a 2.5 ton unit, sounds like they're going to need to add a couple more supply runs. 6 registers sounds scanty for even a 2 ton in my opinion, but it does depend on sizes of the actual ductwork runs. Have your dealers take a look at this. Should not be a problem to add more supply/return, especially with attic access, and should help with your hot/cold spots.

    Regardless, prior to handing over final payment, I would request that they test the total static pressure (air resistance of the system) to ensure nothing is lacking or undersized. Talk about this with the dealers beforehand.

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    also...talking with another dealer they say they can get teh IAQ unit , of course they say it's more expensive. is it? How much more can i expect them to add? personally i can't see these things being over $150 but these guys make them sound like 800 or so. crazy....

    What is the model number for the IAQ? (sales guy only found wireless and some 'premium' or something like that.) Is it wireless? Does it require some other unit / wiring mounted somewhere? or is it just like any other theromostat? where it simply replaces my existing two and connects into the wiring and your done?

    thanks,

  • ryanhughes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Honeywell model #YTH9421C1002. I would imagine it doesn't cost the dealer more than $200, but I really don't know the going rate on the IAQ thermostats.

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Welp...contractor #2 came out (he was third on my list which i gathered from tranes dealers being fully certified 3 in my area)

    He was third on my list for a reason...he pretty much came in noted model numbers and within 20 minutes was gone. i asked him about the load (man J) and he stated i had already told him it cooled just fine so that's everything he needed to know. I pointed out that no i explained the kitchen was hot (probably can't do anything about that since it's downstairs) and the issues upstairs. he responded something about the new system would be more than enough to handle it that if i wanted he could quote me a 2.5 ton.

    man....this is like trying to buy a car....(yes sir...you want a steering wheel?? That's an extra $1k)

    ok..hopefully contractor #3 (two on my list) comes through tomorrow.he seemed really nice on the phone.

    now...one thing i must say...contractor 2 and 3 say they can reuse my existing lines that there is a new chemical they flush it and it strips all the r22 out, then something about blowing it with nitrogen or something then drying it out.

    contractor #1 (my only quote so far) stated they won't reuse and i'll have a nice new set of two downspouts that they hide the runs in and it will come out of my eves.

    if it HAS to be that way ok...but i'd really prefer to reuse the lines if possible.

    also...the IAQ..i see a picture of it and it has some 'box' next to it, looks like a signal box. does that have to be put in? and if so where does it go?
    I also noticed several 'wireless' options inside/outside temps and such. what do i really need?
    oh...and third times the charm...everyone keeps telling me the 803A IS made by HW for trane and does the exact same stuff as the IAQ...ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGG

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    FINALLY...two of three contractors look as say they figure 2 tons, the third guy out measured everything.

    Here is what he found.

    Load Calcs
    Downstairs 30kbtu heat load / 22,265 cool load
    Upstairs 16,838 heat load / 18,899 cooling load

    this is using a sensible heat ratio of 70%

    He recommends moving up to 2.5 ton otherwise the systems stay the same.

    AC 4ttx5030 (xl15i)
    coil 4TXCb031 (trane aluminum coil)
    furnace - tuh2b060a9v3 (xv95)

    He also will do the following

    1. add an additional 6 inch supply in master bedroom and increase the return size from 8 to a 10inch

    2. Add an 8 inch return for our downstairs system, of course since he cant get it downstairs he will add it over the stairs to where it sucks up the air from downstairs.
    Not sure if i can describe it but our stairs are pure wall on the right side and they are open with the downstairs on the left side walking up for about 1/3 of the way up.

    3. He will also lay down new board under units in attic (current piece is really thin)

    4. Also a TRANE 10 yr labor AND parts warranty.

    5. Add in the VisionPRO IAQ system with both the indoor and outdoor temp sensors for both units.

    His price -- 16,800 plus 225 for the IAQ's (17,025)
    He'll be coming back with 16,500 i'm pretty sure as I've asked him to do better ;-)

    1k over the other guys price, but...i get the IAQ's, I go up to 2.5 tons for both units, i get new runs added/increased, 10yr parts and labor warranty (the other guy offered only the standard) and he reuses my existing lines so my house doesn't look like a business park on the outside with dummy gutter downspouts.

    I think we're golden...any thoughts?

  • ryanhughes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Less than 2 ton cooling load on both floors and he recommends 2.5 tons for upstairs? Perhaps there's a misunderstanding somewhere. Looks like the two 2 ton units were the correct size. Did they always do the job well?

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    no...upstairs was hot during the summers in most rooms

  • ryanhughes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Probably because of the ductwork then, MOSTLY. But, I would not be opposed with putting in a 2.5 ton unit, assuming there may have been some error in that load calc. Were your load calc figures AFTER they were adjusted for the 70% SHR? If so, a 2 ton would be 24,000 btu's. Regardless of whether you install a 2 or 2.5 ton unit, the ductwork must be remedied, since I think it may be the leading cause in your discomfort upstairs. Airflow out of the registers okay?

    What explanation did the sales rep provide?

  • tigerdunes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msphynx

    are you certain those load calcs are not reversed as far as upstairs/downstairs? they don't look correct to me.

    TD

  • ryanhughes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree. Very typical for upstairs to have a higher heat gain. That would make the 2.5 ton for upstairs make much more sense.

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well...most of the difference downstairs is because of our windows. We have tons of windows downstairs that currently are just open glass (no blinds, shades, etc.) upstairs the 2 rooms have blinds the other two don't.

    Of course that is the next major project occuring within the next month or two...wife wants plantation shutters mounted on all windows on the inside, so that will help take some heat from the room during summer and keep it in during winter.

    He did leave me some sheet at home that breaks out everything...i'll post it when i get a chance tonight. but if I understood him correctly he said the numbers can out 2.4 for downstairs and 2.1 for upstairs with all things considered both before and after the 70% SHR (if i understood that portion correclty.) again...i'll post tonight whatever the sheet has.

  • ryanhughes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The 2.4 and 2.1 ton requirements may be after taking the 70% SHR into consideration. That to me would make sense. And in that case, you'd probably want to install 2.5 ton units for both floors (assuming load calc done correctly), with ductwork modified as needed. Having that extra half ton for each floor sure wouldn't hurt as I understand it gets very hot in the summer down there.

  • msphynx
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ok...got the sheet...goodness it's more like a small book :-)

    it starts off with a cad drawing of my outer perimeter walls and appears to be pretty accurate with size, door and window placement. it's not blueprint perfect, but it's probably close enough.

    He mainly focused on the bedrooms getting what appear to be accurate SQ ft sizes of 'wall' areas vs window areas adding them together they are about the total sqft of the room.
    downstairs is really just 1 big number, though there are walls in reality the entire area is open only doors are to two closets and half bath and the others go outside.

    This document can overwhelm if you don't know what your looking at, but i think the part you knowledgable people are interested in is the 'latent cool equipment load sizing' area.

    it shows for downstairs
    structure 1357 btuh
    ducts 415 btuh
    central vent 0
    equipment latent load 1782 btuh
    equip total load 22265 btuh
    req. total capacity at .70 shr = 2.4 ton

    the area that gave the total 'sensible cooling equpt load sizing shows total of 20483 btuh for structure and duct totals

    upstairs shows
    SEC Load Sizing
    Structure 14855 btuh
    ducts 2682
    equip sensible load 17538

    latent cool equip load sizing
    structure 983
    ducts 378
    equipt lat load 1361

    equip total load 18899
    req. total capacity at .70 SHR = 2.1 ton

  • farleyb
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    live in florida,do i need a heat pump or straight cool to replace my 15 year old system,could use a ballpark figure to replace a 2.5 ton system
    thanks