more quotes...tigerdunes?

15 years ago

Our Carrier guy just dropped off some more quotes for me for other configurations:

1. Infinity series 80% gas furnace (58CVA110-20)

Cased Carrier evaporator coil (CNPVP4821ATA)

Infinity series 4 ton 17 SEER AC (24ANA748)

Infinity control

all associated labor, yada, yada, yada

Total: 8900 (minus $1000 rebate)

2. Same gas furnace and coil as above

Infinity 16 SEER 4 ton heat pump

combination SEER rating of 15.5

Infinity control

Total: $9800 (minus 1100 rebate)

can also provide humidifer for $400; Infinity purifier for $1200 or other brand purifier for "about half that."

Tigerdunes -- asked about 96% furnace, and the guy said he spec'd for the 80% because the other would require additional PVC work, which would be fairly extensive due to the location of our equipment. Does this make sense?

Also, since you asked before, our electric charge is 0.0931/kWh. Gas is harder to figure out, since it's on a sliding scale according to usage, but averaged $1.55 per therm, incl tax.

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Comments (6)

ryanhughes
15 years ago
True about the PVC work; sometimes it's hard to run PVC, especially in a finished basement (thus the 80% is used).

Now you'll have to see if the heat pump is worth a net extra of $800--depends on climate, electric rates, etc.
kardut
Original Author
15 years ago
Any benefits to heat pumps besides the potential cost savings?
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heat pumps are surprisingly versatile and efficiently use electricity. You would be better off upgrading to highest efficiency single stage heatpump with demand defrost. Heatpumps are not good at bring temperature back up in a quick time. Heat pumps work best at maintaining temperature. When its sleeting/snowing out you will discover your heatpump to go into defrost alot. (if you have demand defrost). This is probably the least desirable thing about a heatpump but its part of life. If a heatpump didn't go into defrost, the outside coils would ice over. Iced over coils don't allow air to cross them and its not efficient to run. When its not sleeting/snowing out they run without going into defrost often. I'm currently running my heatpump. Outside temperature is 22 F. Inside is 67. Vent temperature is is 86. Thats a 19 degree rise. Its running pretty constant to maintain this temperature but thats not a bad thing. You should look into upgrading your main furnace and A/C to a 95% gas furnace and heatpump. Gas is nice for when sleeting/snowing or extra cold.
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"the A/C could not keep up on a tripple digit day. It could have been low on freon or just not very effiecent ." Efficiency rarely is the problem. The unit MUST be sized correctly for the load. An 80% efficient 2 ton units delivers the same cooling as a 90% efficient 2 ton unit. 2 tons of cooling. How much electricity it takes to produce the cooling is the difference. If the unit cannot hold temperature on high heat days it is most likely not large enough. The same size at higher efficiency will likely have the same problem. Not enough capacity. it will just cost less to not be comfortable (less electricity used). Wide swings between peak days and more 'regular' days are a real problem for residential AC systems. They do not have an actual accumulator to hold liquified refrigerant and a good way of varying the capacity of the system based on the actual load. TXVs help some, but still cannot reduce range enough. Large commercial work uses staging to match system output to the load. Residential work is much more price conscious. There are multi speed units for residential, and even some equipment that actually uses two sizes of compressor to vary capacity. It costs more, and often needs to be hooked to a variable capacity blower to work well.
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john Here is the matching AHRI match with performance/eff numbers. 3261198 Discontinued Systems INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA648A31 CNPV*4821A** 58MV(B,C)100-20 45500 11.00 15.00 47500 8.90 27800 A nice system, probably overkill with the 95% eff furnace for a relatively mild climate like Seattle. It is unlikely you are oversized at 4 tons for 3400 sq ft. I assume you have the Infinity controller. Correct? First, the stop and go between the stages of this mdl heat pump is normal. It is a feature that I don't like but is the way this condenser was engineered. So to your problem. Two issues stick out. I don't like setbacks like you have. Heat pumps are good at maintaining temperature but can be very slow to recover under certain circumstances. I do not recommend a setback more than three degrees. Extreme setbacks like you have can be false economy. I assume your furnace is locked out at a specific outside temperature. But the low supply temperature at 45+ degrees outside temperature is not normal. It should be in the low 90s at a minimum if not higher. This suggests that your refrigerant charge is not correct. You need a seasoned Carrier Infinity tech with charging charts to check this out. I am assuming ductwork has been looked at for obvious leaks/restrictions. Evap coil also should be inspected for any buildup. Return ductwork should also be inspected. Split levels are notorious for heating and cooling. You have adequate return? I would get several supply temp readings at different locations in your home at different times of day(early, midday, afternoon, evening). Document this with time, location, and outside temp. do this over several days, review, and post back. then you have the ammunition to call installing dealer and complain with facts. IMO
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mike_home: I did email Company D earlier and here is his response: "I can assure you that the 5 ton is correct. A 3.5 ton could do it based on today's building efficiency standards, but your home was built 14 years ago. Those standards were based around 500 Sq ft of living space per ton. The 5 ton will cool and dehumidify your house very efficiently once it is installed properly. A 3.5 ton would not even fill your existing ducts properly to provide adequate air flow." tigerdunes: Since purchasing our home, we have never had consistent temps in all rooms. Some rooms were much warmer than others, especially our upstairs bonus room which was my oldest daughter's room and is now a game room. The temperature difference ranged anywhere between 8-15 degrees higher. We changed to the Honeywell zoning at the guidance of our old AC guy, who is now out of business. I honestly can't say there was any difference in performance probably because we have been air conditioning the attic due to the ductwork (based on Company D's inspection).
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ryanhughes
15 years ago
Not really. They're just like air conditioners with the ability to reverse their cycle to provide heat. However, since you are going with the gas furnace, I strongly recommend the dual fuel setup if you can afford the H/P upgrade--I think it would be an economical solution. It is very common that a 80% furnace is paired with a heat pump in a dual fuel application.

Do you plan on contacting any of the companies I provided, or are you pretty much content with this company?
tigerdunes
15 years ago
kardut

here are the AHRI matching performance numbers

873723 Active Systems INFINITY 17 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ANA748A30 CNPV*4821A** 58CV(A,X)110-20 46500 11.10 15.00 1

882559 Active Systems INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA648A30 CNPV*4821A** 58CV(A,X)110-20 46000 11.10 15.50 47500 8.90 27600

"Tigerdunes -- asked about 96% furnace, and the guy said he spec'd for the 80% because the other would require additional PVC work, which would be fairly extensive due to the location of our equipment. Does this make sense?"

can make sense, can also be a bunch of nonsense. generally , you need the placement of the 90+% AFUE condensing furnace to be close to an outside wall to vent waste gas as well as be reasonably close to the outside condenser. I would go through process and ask dealer the upcharge for any modifications to accept the higher eff furnace as well as an explanation for the work involved-that's up to you.

I still believe the dual fuel with high eff HP is preferable to the 95% AFUE furnace with straight AC.
Just curious, but ask dealer the BTU output for the low stg on the Infinity 80 furnace-it's probably around 60K.

Good Luck! You are on trak to a very nice system.

IMO
blueshoo
15 years ago
hi kardut -

I think you mentioned you were having Mann-In come out on Thursday; just wondering how that went & if the quote was reasonable.

Thanks.
kardut
Original Author
15 years ago
blueshoo--
I ended up having to cancel the Mann-In appointment since I was called in to work.

We decided to just go ahead with the company who gave us our Carrier estimates (Shaw) -- especially since you have to order before end of the month to get rebates. Had good references, prices were fair, they're just down the street from us so can come out on a moment's notice and they already had $$ from our initial diagnosis/freon charge that they'll apply toward the system price (plus a coupon for Angie's List members). They're coming out Monday to measure, so I'll let you know what we think...

more quotes...tigerdunes?

Comments (6)

ryanhughes

kardut
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more quotes...tigerdunes?

Comments (6)

ryanhughes

kardutOriginal Author

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ryanhughes

tigerdunes

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kardutOriginal Author

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