fitzer

these are straight ACs or HPs?

if ACs, paired with air handler or furnace?

if HP, paired with air handler?

you are replacing a two ton?

post back with all mdl numbers both inside and outside unit.

IMO

Sorry they are heat and A/C if that's what you're asking. And they would be paired with a 2 ton air handler also.

They are replacing a 2 ton air handler and 1 1/2 ton condensoor.

fitzer

so you are going up in size from a 1 1/2 to a 2 ton condenser?
what is mdl number of air handler and HP condenser?

sorry for the questions, but it does make a difference.

IMO

The model # of the new or old one? Sorry for being difficult - I don't really know much about this business at all.

I prefer Trane.
I looked into selling Maytag for the IQ drive.
But always got uneasy about how the evaporator coils looked.
There is no beef to them and Nordyne(Parent Company) has a history of crappy coils.
Maytag and Westinghouse are the same equipment.

What do you think of the price of the Trane. We live in Eastern NC - not very high cost of living - wages on the low end. Also does the price of the extended warranty seem reasonable? The rep said there is no fixed price and from what I can see on the net - this price varies considerably. Some got them for around $400.

The price on the system seems very good.
I not sure about the price extended warranty.
Where I live the State of Florida is different, our state government regulates the extended warranties through the manufacture and the contractor.

I would get a couple quotes this way you can see pricing in your area.

fitzer

I like the Trane better than the Westinghouse.

However, I would like you to post the air handler mdl number dealer has quoted. As said previously, it makes a difference.

dealer is including new lineset and stat?

As far as ext warranty, generally speaking and a good rule of thumb is they should not cost more than 10% of purchase price. $500 would seem more in line as an acceptable price.

IMO

Thanks so much for all your advice. I appreciate any input. I'll find out the air handler number today and post it. He quoted a regular thermostat but we were going to ask for a programmable as part of the final negotiated price.
Tigerdunes - are you asking about refrigerant lines? If so I believe they will flush them but not replace them.

I have another quote:
Comfortmaker 15 SEER 2 ton
N4H24GKA 2 ton Condensor
FEM4X3000A 2 ton BPM AH
EHK05AKN Electric Heater
Honeywell Pro 5000 electronic thermostat
Price $3482

fitzer

I would much rather have a tax credit qualifying Trane than either of the other two systems you have mentioned.

I always recommend that new lineset be installed especially when going from 22 to 410 refrigerant.this is not an insignificant detail.

In your case if you are going up in size, I would insist upon it. linesets must be sized correctly to achieve performance/eff numbers that system is capable of.

why cripple a new system before it even starts up?

IMO

Thanks for the info. No one has mentioned putting in new lines yet and I've had three different companies out. Do you have any idea of added cost to a job? This is the upstairs of a two-storey house.

All of the units will qualify for a tax credit.

I've had zero problems with flushing line sets.
I use Pro-Flush with nitrogen, it's a $150 cost. While line sets start at $500.

Upstairs, could be much more, and depends on how you want the line set ran.

"I've had zero problems with flushing line sets.
I use Pro-Flush with nitrogen, it's a $150 cost. While line sets start at $500.

Upstairs, could be much more, and depends on how you want the line set ran. "

See, this is the problem I have with the HVAC industry - The markups on parts and supplies are HUGE, and the installers want to double their money on everything they touch as well, so the customer ends up really getting nailed, or skipping NEEDED parts, and the installers really don't care.

Add to that contractors that really don't want to do anything but slam in a new unit, even if they're choking it with insufficient return air, dinky linesets, and disconnects and wiring that was installed when Ike was president.

I got a 1 1/8" 50' lineset for $209 + shipping, and that's pretty much the biggest lineset available for residential. A 25 foot 3/4" lineset is closer to $125 - Paying $150 to re-use a 20-30 year old lineset is just silly, especially since the newer units often want bigger lines anyway.

If a retail customer can find these prices on the 'net, then the installer - rightfully imho, loses all credibility.

I had one installer make a big point about how he would cover the cost of the extra refrigerant I'd need because of my long lineset.

I looked in the service manual, and found that I needed .8 of an ounce per foot of line over 25 feet...15 x .8 = 12 ounces - LESS THAN A POUND of REFRIGERANT! Needless to say, I was underimpressed with his Charge a FAIR price for your labor, and quit trying to bury profit in your parts - it makes you look shady.

The house is 6 years old so I don't know if that makes a difference.

I asked one of the contractors about replacing the lines and they said the extra pressure needed with the new refrigerant would work fine with the slightly smaller lineset we currently have. I'm going from a 1 1/2 ton condensor with a 2 ton air handler to a 2 ton condensor and 2 ton air handler.

Per Trane/Am Std, line sets can be flushed. The factory prefers a HFC flush. They do not recommend flushing an evap coil and converting from r22 to r410 by changing the expansion valve. More than one size line set can be used on any given system (generally). Your dealer would need to use a piping chart if you had a lot of rise/lift or long run in equivalent feet (taking all of the bends into consideration). If a roll of copper is 200 bucks, 500 to install is a deal. Add the 3/8" copper, tubing insulation for suction line and a cover for the outside.....and labor.

fitzer,
XR-15
2 Ton recommends 3/4 gas line and 3/8 for liquid line.
If the line set is smaller like 5/8, the system would loose some of it's efficiency.
Remember a contractor can do anything you request. But they can't do requests for free unlike zippy's ideology.
You said your budget is limited so you may have to think about effective cost saving procedures. Even if it reduces the efficiency by 1%. We are in the real world and so we have to make the best valued choice. Ask your bids to include a line set replacement then see if it is in your budget. Doesn't hurt to ask.

zippy
please,
If you own, operate, or manage a business you will know
there is always mark up, and mark up is to pay expenses the business incurs through out the year. I'm not even going to get into the details,
my advice, just buy a book and read about business and how to survive in it. You have much to learn grasshopper.

fitzer

good post by classicdave on the lineset issue.

I see nothing wrong with flushing a lineset as long as its the correct size. But I don't like the idea of crippling a brand new system's performance/eff capability right out of the box. discuss with your dealer. perhaps there is ground for a compromise.

businesses are in business to stay in business. we all know businesses have different levels of markup. as long as competitive/marketplace forces are working correctly, markups will be reasonable.

IMO

It's not so much budget as it is getting such different information and trying to figure out what is right. I have asked the dealers about new lines and none seem even interested in doing it. All claim they have zero issues with flushing. Also, another concern of ours is the aesthetics - one mentioned the lines would have to be on the outside of the house.

Any thoughts on the Comfortmaker proposal or is Trane the way to go? All the companies I have had out to my house are either Progress Energy (our energy company) recommended or manufacturer recommended or both. Why is it that none of these companies even entertain changing the lines? Surely they know they will make some money on it so it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't want to do it.

If we don't have the lines changes, does anyone know how that will directly affect the life of the system or is this purely an efficiency issue?

Thank you all again for taking the time to answer questions. I had to replace A/C in FL last year and know that I was definitely over priced and probably bought terrible equipment. I had no idea - only what the A/C companies told me.

Trane or AmStd will hold up better in a harsh coastal, salt water environment.

IMO

Regarding cost, here's something with which you can compare:
One each 2.5 ton and 3 ton TempStar TX 5400 (T4A4) 14 SEER AC units, two each TempStar VS 80 (T8MPV) two-stage 80% gas furnaces, two each Honeywell FocusPro 5000 'stats, lineset flush, new pads for AC units, new pans for furnace units. AC unit warranty is 7-year "no hassle", 10-year compressor, 10-year parts. Furnace warranty is 10-year "no hassle", 10-year parts, limited lifetime heat exchanger.
Just under $9500 all in. I live in a suburb of Charlotte, NC. The system is quiet (I mean, really quiet!) efficient, and powerful. Installed 3 weeks ago, on a 10-year old, 2800 sqr ft two-story home. Replaced contractor-grade Lennox garbage. Good luck!