Get the resume of the new guy and take it to whomever it should go to....have the interview taken care of,have him waiting in the wings and fire Johns sorry ass....you already kept him longer than you should have
He obviously doesnt respect authority...his attitude has nothing to do with working with/for a woman...hes an egotistical puke.

How old is John?
If you plan to fire someone for cause, the company has to be very careful about it so as not to geve the fired person any cause for litigation. And by that, I'm not talking about winning a suit for unlawful termination....the cost of defending such a suit can be very high, so companies try to avoid giving any little thing that might give a lawyer an opening to sue.

So, I would go along with the president (who has probably already asked their legal rep. for guidance)and carefully document, and follow exactly what he says.

I agree with Ont. gal. Maybe the president should talk to HR person too. He should be backing you on this. Your not the only one with these feelings. What an attitude. Maybe he's related to someone?
Leslie

People, for the most part, do not change kittiemom. I question his actions and decisions already. I do agree with keeping a log or documentation on his insubordination and errors. I think the company is wasting precious time by not replacing him.

I, too, would interview the other applicant just as a safety net. Don't wait until Feb. 1 if you don't feel it's totally necessary. The Pres is leaving it up to your discretion after all.

The guy sounds 15 years old and trying to defy you every chance he gets...i hope you are documenting every encounter with him...it's for your own protection as well as the companies! Good luck and I hope this is past you soon...working is hard enough without having to stress out over another co-worker!

What restrictions were put on him?

Document everything and take the new resume.
You've already involved the president and the HR officer. They know what is going on so I wouldn't talk to them about it anymore unless they asked. Again, document everything.

What a pain. Like, you don't have anything else to do but babysit this guy, huh?

Lori

I'm a huge believer in small voice recorders. With one of those, nothing can be questioned later, so if I were you, I'd get ahold of one and record every word you and John have together. You could even tell him (once) that you're recording him. Then when he shows his butt again, you'll have proof. I doubt if you could use it in court if it was a secret recording.

The other thing you could do is bring someone along with you every single time you have to talk to John, a witness if you will. Never be alone with him. That might force him to shape up, but what a pain for you in your small group.

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this glassbowl, Kittiemom, what a jerk he must be.

Ok, although I think I know where you are coming from it, you can't easily fire someone because you don't like their attitude and that's what is coming across to me as your biggest complaint with him. Although it may seem like insubordination to you, it probably only looks like he's trying to prptect himself when he asks that your door remain open, etc... He can't really easily get fired for that kind of stuff. He could argue, maybe even rightly, that the restrictions you put on him were so ludicrous that he actually had nothing to do. Makes you look like the bad one. I know you are the one in the right, but you can't really win with people like this. They will play their game better than you. Try to be a step ahead of him because I have a feeling his file on you is just as long as your file on him. It probably takes a lot for the bosses to fire him especially when he may have excuses -- however bad you may think they are. Attitude and personalities are subjective... it's hard to fire people on. So, aside from his attitude, your personalities not meshing, and maybe a human mistake from time to time, is he really unable to perform his job duties? Could he be doing ok working for someone else?

I hate to work with people like that, there seem to be more and more in the work force, no work ethics and bad attitudes. They make us all look bad and are very frustrating to work with since they make you look like a tyrant boss.

I also do not like it when upper management tries to make you work with the person, you have documented it all and you must have been with the company longer than him. Even if he is 'good' for the next week I am sure you do not want to continue working with him.

I would of course do as the president says and as you are doing documenting it~~~but~~~I would really try my best to move him somewhere else or fire him. He will be HE!! to work with after this if he gets to stay!!

I had an employee that continuously ignored my request and deliberately went out of her way to try to "sabotage" me. Which only hurt the company. I requested she be transferred out of my store location.

I have been in your shoes. Get rid of the little Emp!

Gayle

I really want to fire this guy, but it seems almost that the company wants him to stay.

I didn't get the idea from your post that "the company" wants him to stay. In fact, if the HR director is in your corner, that person knows whether or not you are within your legal means to let him go. I'd get on with it for the company's sake - whether you hire the person you have in mind or someone else.

Does he have a previous court record that may be the reason that he doesn't want to be alone in a room with a lady and the door closed?? I'm not sure I'd want to be in a room with him and the door closed either.

ivamae

Before I read what the psychiatrist said, my first thought was a matter of respect. Not necessarily that he dislikes working for a woman but that he thinks he can be lazy and treat you however he wishes. My second thought was to wonder why you allowed him so long to do the report, asking him about it and so forth. Sounded to me you were letting him get away with how he feels and get over on you. There should have been more insistence from you to see the report at some point or at least what he done so far.

You may be sure the incident in the office about being alone with you and the door closed will come back on you. He is going to take you/the company to court or EEOC with that being one of his complaints.

Have to wonder why you told the prez things were "a little better." You gave us four more incidents within two days. Anything that was better was negligible, especially knowing he's just being nice during the trial period. I don't think your boss wants the guy to stay necessarily, only that he doesn't want to be sued, which he knows is more than likely. Now, he has to testify that you said things were a little better, but you fired him anyway.

The company insurance will take care of lawyers and address any court action, but then they'll increase premiums sky high, or cancel the policy.

Don't be concerned with what others there think. Your documentation will speak for you in that respect.

IMHO, the President wants to "give John a fair chance" in order to protect the company from litigation and also to give Joh a chance to find other employment, which will make him much less likely to try to pursue litigation.

Paying John for two weeks is not doubt cheaper than paying a lawyer for two days.

Document everything you can remember and make sure his system and e-mail have been backed up and archived on the way out. Once he is asked to leave, make sure he does not have computer/network access.
Best of luck.

GardenSpice, gives me another thought. If at all possible, which it should be since it is not his personal computer, make him give access to his email at the spur of the moment. There is no doubt awful things he has told others about you, a bunch of incriminating stuff. Check with HR and the prez first, of course, but it should be legal since work computers are not for personal use - assuming that is the rule and well understood in your workplace.

No advice, just document everything, have as many witnesses as possible, again document and keep these recored with you so no one else will see them.
BE CAREFUL too many of these types of people sometimes come back with a gun. It happens more that get reported.

Sorry Bestlawn, I have to disagree: I absolutely do NOT recommend making him give you access to his computer. Your System Administrator should have that all covered. (if you doubt this, check with her/him)
Do not set up a situation in which he feels humiliated or threatened. Do not create hostility. It is just not necessary, not will it accomplish anything.

You're right, GardenSpice, it could create another hostile atmosphere. I wasn't trying to say you suggested it though.

Does your state have "at-will" employment? Except for racism, ageism, etc., most employees in at-will states can be fired for any reason at any time.

The message to the Pres. needs to address his concerns, namely the company's bottom line. I would document how much John has cost the company due to his delays, errors, etc. For example, his one error caused 16 extra labor hours, which would equate to at least a thousand bucks. What about the delayed reports? Did they cause other people to work overtime? And the cost of consulting a psychiatrist. How many times have you had to talk to him about his behavior and othe problems -- document those hours as well, as both he and you could have spent them more productively. Also the hours spent with HR -- wasted time. Put a dollar figure on it, and he'll be gone before you know it. :-)

Just a random thought ---

I keep thinking about the incident at the beginning of your second paragraph, when John was late and claimed he was stuck in traffic. You say he has a work cell phone as well as a personal cell phone. We have a well-known, long-standing rule where I work. If you are going to be absent or signficantly late for any reason, you must call your supervisor within 30 minutes of your normal start time. If your supervisor isn't available, you must seek another supervisor. You are not allowed to just leave a message on someone's voice mail - you have to speak to a live supervisor or manager. Does your employer have a rule in any way, shape, or form similar to this? If so, has John violated it?

Bottom line is....the decision to fire a person is not yours...it's between HR and the President of the company.

Make your complaints on concrete facts and actions, or attitude or impressions, tell the employee what to do to remedy the situation, give him a timeline for the improvement(probation), and a date for a second review to see if the problems have been corrected.

Many of the suggestions here would be okay if it was your business, but it isn't. This sounds like a large enough business that federal and state employment rules must be followed and the president is doing this.

Thanks for your support everyone. I really had high hopes for this guy & it's disappointing for things to turn out this way. I feel kinda stupid because I hired the guy. He interviewed really well. Of course, I know it's hard to tell during a hour-long interview what someone will really be like in the workplace.

I told our pres. that things were a little better because they are. John's attitude in general was better last week. But I certainly don't think that would continue long-term if he stayed.

I delegate tasks to him in Outlook & have asked that he update this task list on a daily basis so I know what's left & can rearrange priorities if necessary. He doesn't update this like he should, so I have to call or email him to ask about the status of the tasks.

He told me during one of our conversations what his two complaints with me as a manager are. One is that it's "demeaning" to him to be called my assistant. Actually, I don't usually call him that, I just use his name, which he acknowledged. He says that assistant is on his paycheck. I told him that payroll makes those up & they're only for accounting purposes. I also told him that as long as my paycheck is good, I don't really care what title it has on it. His other complaint with me is that while I usually thank him for doing things, I don't always.

Lindsey, actually, we do have a policy that states this. I had completely forgotten about it until you mentioned it. Even management calls in. We don't speak with a supervisor; I don't call the pres. about this. When I'm going to be late or working out of another office, I call in to the admin. asst. at my office so people know where I am.

We are an at-will state. Technically, he could be fired at any time. Our company policy is that there must be write-ups in the personnel chart. I've done those, but they were put on hold during this trial period.

I should have addressed the issue with the report more firmly before I did. This is the first time I've managed someone with this attitude, so it's been a learning experience for me. I also should've written him up for some things before I finally did. I've always felt that it's more productive to talk with someone & tell them what they did wrong than to try to scare them by doing a formal write-up that goes in their personnel chart. I've found that my approach doesn't work with this type employee & will keep that in mind for the future. He's been getting progressively worse over the past couple of weeks. It's gone from small things to larger things.

This is just a really stressful situation for me. I work a lot of hours & don't have the time or desire to baby-sit an employee. I also don't have time for an arrogant attitude or someone who makes such careless mistakes. Our dept. is crucial to the company running smoothly on a daily basis.

I know the feeling being in business isnt easy anymore.You fire them then you have to worry what theyll do to retaliate.

My dh had to sit in some interviews a while back, and his comment to me was that more important than meeting the job requirements was the fact that the new person's attitude and personality would 'mesh' in a postive way with the rest of the office. But how can that be judged in a 1-2 hour meeting?

My nephew took on a new job, but before he was hired, he was invited to work a day (paid - but not hired- how do they manage that?) to get a feel for how he took on the dynamics of the office, and the office to him. He's been there 2 years and enjoying it, but that method isn't feasible for every organization.

It kind of bothers me about his getting up and opening the door because he says he didn't want to be alone with you.

I can't help but wonder if he isn't trying to lay a case for harrassment, should he be fired.

Perhaps that's why everyone is walking on eggshells around him. Hostile personalities like this inevitably think it's someone else's fault for their failure, and they may try to make someone pay for it via a harassment or discrimination lawsuit. Just a thought.

In any case, with a beligerent personality like this you want to be sure to do everything by the book, document all situtions and follow Human Resource advice to the letter. This guy smells like trouble.

He took on the job knowing he was going to be your "assistant", what the heck does he expect - to be called Manager?

And, it seems like you thank him enough. Does he expect to be thanked for DOING HIS JOB with each and every task he completes?

Quite honestly, I think you need to let this guy go. You are too busy to be consumed with his problems that have now become your problems because of his unprofessional behavior in the work place. It appears to me that he is not doing his job nearly "to par", and along with his attitude, and being insubordinate, is means enought to fire him. Generally, people don't change much, or at least for any long period of time as you already know.

I too smell a rat, and I urge you to get rid of it before it eats away too much. And it will - it's already happening.

I really don't think you and John are a good match. It would be best if he left the company. Lots of passive-aggressive behavior going on here on both sides.

I do have one concern.

"I asked a psychiatrist to read the email & he said it was very hostile. He & some other people think that John doesn't like working for a woman."

Did you run this by HR before sharing this in house email with a psychiatrist and others?

Yes, I'm spending too much of my time following up on him. Because he doesn't update his task list as requested or at least email or call me to let me know where things stand, I usually start each new day trying to track him down & figure out what the priorities of the day need to be. That's a real hassle for me. The priorities for us can change very quickly & I must know what's been done so I can evaluate the tasks for the day. Sometimes I've scheduled him to go to one office but when I talk to him he tells me that he didn't finish his tasks in another office the previous day & needs to go back there. This of course has an effect on my productivity. I think the words I used with my husband were, "I have to spend too much time supervising him."

We do have an outsourced company who helps me as well. John mentioned in the paper he wrote about me that he hadn't become overwhelmed yet, so he didn't understand why I was calling them in to help out. I have told several employees that I was turning something over to John, put it on his task list, & then several days later gotten a call or email saying that he'd never contacted them. The owner of this company in fact came to me about some changes that had been made in things & asked if I knew about them. Since I can't possibly keep up with everything, I told him no. He said he had some concerns about things John was doing & pointed them out to me. These were things John should've asked me about before changing.

I do try to thank him. But my feeling is the same as Debi's - am I supposed to thank him every time for doing his job? He's getting paid to do it & like I pointed out to him, a lot of managers never thank you.

I know the pres. is behind me. We've worked together for a long time. I'm just still trying to decide what he means by saying that he wants me to give John a fair chance. I've already done that. But, I told him I'd re-evaluate during this two weeks & I plan to do that.

The psychiatrist works for us & is also a manager at the company. I thought maybe I was reading too much into the wording of the email so I asked him to read it just to get an unbiased opinion. I didn't share it with others except the pres. & HR.

Wow...I do not envy you at all. I too manage people for a living and sometimes it is just Hard!

My first piece of advice is, never under any circumstance have a counseliing session(talking about work performance, disciplinary action) without a witness present. You will need to ask another manager, HR, the President, someone, to come and just sit and observe. That is for your safety as well as the company's. I am assuming that the President of the Company is just covering his backside by offering a "fair chance" to John. If he has called to express concern over a few things that he did, then he is probably ready to fire him too.
Just because a state is "at-will" doesnt mean you shouldn't have plenty of documentation to back yourself up when the firing is done. You know what they say....CYAP(cover your a** in paper).
To me, it sounds like he "wants" to be fired so he can try to draw unemployment. If he is an hourly employee, can you cut his hours down to one day? Maybe that would help him look for another job.

Your department and company is only as good as the weakest person. So either train him more, or cut him loose!

If your state is "at-will", I don't know why everyone including the Pres., is tippy-toeing around this guy! Is he a minority or other class that would otherwise might have a case, even if unwarranted? If not, just fire his a** and move on. If you're his supervisor/manager, you have the power to fire him. If you do not, then you are not his supervisor/manager and perhaps need to evaluate your own position within the company. Sorry to sound harsh, but there seems to be more at stake here than you might realize.

MtnWoman, it's already obvious he's trying to build a case whether he is minority or not. He implied a hostile atmosphere, so I'm glad GardenSpice caught me on my suggestion so KittieMom doesn't create another one.

KittieMom, it would be a good idea for you to educate yourself on the law of sexual harrassment. You can be accused of that and he will win despite your intentions. Like I said, that incident in the office is going to come back at you.

I think I'd be wishing I could ask the president, "Why are you not letting me rubn my own department? You told John that if it was any other department, his boss would have been allowed to fire him before now. By telling him this, you essentially told him that I do not have your confidence as a manager. You have told him that you don't trust me, don't trust my judgment.
"DO you trust my judgment? In which case, I want John out of here at the first opportunity that works well. I want to call this other guy and offer him the job, and once he accepts, I want John out of the office."

And I think I'd want to say, "I aleady GAVE him a fair chance. I've been giving him a fair chance for MONTHS now."

And I think I'd want to say, "Since John isn't here, tell me--as one manager to another manager, why you are doing this? What is the concern that is behind your slowing down my firing? We ARE an important unit, and we're small, and 50% of our workforce is completely incompetent, and that 50% is costing the remaining workforce HUGE losses in productivity. Plus, that bad 50% is costing us extra money in charges from the outsourcing firm we hire. WHY are you slowing this down? What is the motivation? I need to understand it, so that I can satisfy it in some OTHER way."

also, every time you go to check his task list and it's not updated, you e-mail him. "I checked your task list. It's not updated. I couldn't reach you. I made phone calls to other people to find out the status. Time spent: 15 minutes."

Or whatever.

Someone wrote :"he was invited to work a day (paid - but not hired- how do they manage that?) "
They do that w/ temp wages, as if they'd hired a temporary officer worker. It's a snap at my company. And the person who agreed to the trial would theoretically take a vacation or personal day from their office.

Regarding the recording of conversations w/ John: In some states, it is illegal to tape record someone in person without their knowledge. So you might need to put the voice recorder out on the desk, so he knows it's there.

this sound so much like the "new age employee" they were talking about on tv...(especially you not thanking him, lol)

i'm surprised mommy hasn't called you for being rude to her darling child who can do no wrong...it seems some parents take it to new heights these days...(called helicopter parents for hovering over little john or jane)

it seems (of course blaming parents) these little darlings have heard all their life what a good job you're doing right or wrong, and they expect employers to do the same!

i do think now i'd email in triplicate any task given to him, the dept he'd be working for, and your personnal file.

one other possible reason is he's overwhelmed with the work he's doing and really need a fast course in training...i know in the past couple months dd has been working with 2 people who knew NOTHING...wern't trained in proper sales, or product, couldn't make a phone call without her "holding their hand" (all long distance!)one lasted about 2 months and goodness know how long the other will....

Let me put it this way. They didn't call me "Dragon Lady" for nothing. When you are working bare bones in a busy environment it is important that people do what they have to do, when they have to do it. When shown mistakes they should work hard not to commit them again. It seems like he is more worried about his title than how well he does his job.

In my experience, things will NOT be better in the future and he may well in fact do things so that your standing in the company is affected. Remember, he reports to you so anything he does reflects on you. If he gets away with these things, it reflects on your ability as a manager.

A strong handshake, a nice speech about how this position is surely holding him back from the wonderful opportunities out there waiting for him, a weeks pay, and a kick in the butt as he goes out the door.

"i'm surprised mommy hasn't called you for being rude to her darling child who can do no wrong...it seems some parents take it to new heights these days...(called helicopter parents for hovering over little john or jane)"

Well I have a good memory. A few years back when the shoe was on the other foot Kittiemom's DH did just that...intervened on her behalf with a manager SHE was having trouble with.Odd.

Wildchild, my DH intervened without my knowledge. I would never ask him to do so & was furious when I found out what he'd done. I let him know in no uncertain terms that while I loved him & understood that he was trying to help me that I didn't need that sort of help & told him to NEVER do it again. What exactly are you trying to say?

Kittiemom I am not taking anyone's side here. I am looking at both sides as an objectively as possible as an observer.

Susan's post triggered a memory. My brain has always functioned like that. Obscure things I don't even know I know are triggered by word or deed. Synchronicity.

You were not all that furious at your DH at the time.Actually you were pretty relieved. I am not going to post a link because this is not what this is about. I don't wish to debate who is right or wrong in your current situation because frankly I don't know enough to have an opinion.

I do suggest you go back and read your posts on when you were having problems with your manager. It may be helpful for you to remember how you felt at that time. Then maybe you can deal better with the employees feelings about working for you. It could turn out that you are 100% in the right or not. Not saying you have done anything wrong but just that it's a good thing to look at perceptions from all sides and learn from them.

Actually I was furious with DH. It was a relief to get it out in the open but I WAS very upset with him. I have a tendency to not speak up on my on behalf & in that way I was relieved by what DH had done. I was angry that he'd interfered in my professional life.

I was working for a manager with whom nothing was ever right. She wasn't just like that with me, she was a tyrant to everyone except the pres, CEO & one of the other VP's, who was her best friend.

I'm not saying I've been a perfect manager. I haven't; I'm sure none of us who've managed people ever have been. I certainly haven't been a tyrant. I usually request that tasks be done (instead of demand) & try to just correct people by talking with them instead of writing them up. Even when I was working for my previous manager, I didn't try to argue with her & I didn't have an excuse for everything. If I did something wrong, I acknowledged it & worked toward not doing it wrong again. I felt trapped & worried when I worked there. I certainly wasn't arrogant. I could give you a list of a hundred legitimate issues with her. If his only issues with me are that he doesn't like being called my assistant & I don't thank him enough (not never, just not every time), I wouldn't think that's too bad. I want to be a good manager, that's why I told him to go ahead & tell me what his issues with me were.

I'm trying to look at it from John's point of view. However, it's very difficult for me to do that when he acts as if he's done nothing wrong. I don't expect him to grovel at my feet, but he could at least tell me that he'll try to make sure that whatever it is doesn't happen again. Instead he makes excuses & acts as if there's something wrong with me for mentioning anything to him.

I guess what I am seeing is that you are more passive than John. You said you had/have a tendency not to speak up for yourself. Apparently John has no problem speaking up for himself.

I hate to bring gender into it but men are less likely to be willing to take what they perceive as cr#p from someone,even a boss, even if it is only in their own mind.

Is John a lot younger than you? Could he be rebelling against what he feels is (s)mothering?

John seems to be coming on too strong to you but another man might just shrug it off. On the other hand maybe you need to be more Alpha in your attitude (in a purely professional manner of course) so he doesn't push so much.(testing you)

I am curious about what kind of job John does as your assistant. Is this a techie type job with a lot of troubleshooting involved? I don't know where you live but here in California techies are pretty much used to calling their own shots. A lot of them don't play well with others. It's by-product of the dot.com era.

I don't know if this working relationship has any chance of being saved but instead of getting frustrated and pointing out his errors have you tried complimenting him on something he does right? Right now you are on the offensive and he is on the defensive. Lose-lose situation for everyone.

Instead of asking him why he is acting this way or that way have you tried asking him for real input? How HE thinks he could do his job better? What he would like to see your group of two accomplish. As his superior you certainly don't have to implement any his ideas but just being willing to listen might ease the tension.

That's a good guess. Yes, it is a tech job. I've worked with tech guys for years, so I'm used to them. I well know the "I know everything" attitude of many techies. He is pretty much free to do what he wants. However, I must stay updated about what's going on. I don't ask that this be any more than an email or a quick phone call. I don't expect constant progress updates during the day, just that I'm informed so I can do my job.

He's about nine years younger than me, so not a tremendous difference. He's certainly not an all-bad guy & I wasn't trying to imply that he is. He just doesn't seem to take direction well, even when it's legitimate. He seems to want to do his own thing. He doesn't apologize if I talk to him about problems. For instance, the cell phone issue. When I told him that other employees & I needed to be able to reach him & that he should begin carrying a spare battery & make sure to fully charge both at night, he just shrugged. It was if he was telling me that he didn't agree but he'd do it anyway.

I don't have the time or desire to micromanage. I just need someone who'll get out & get the job done. I want someone who doesn't need constant supervision, someone who will get the job done without me checking up on them.

I sent John an email several weeks ago asking for his input on some things. I was hoping that would make him feel that we were really a team. I didn't get a response. I sent another similar one a few days later, basically asking what goals he'd like to see our dept. work on for the year & what would be important for him. I got no response to that one either. I've asked him to help me research solutions to various problems & to give his opinions on products. I've told him more than once that he was welcome to make suggestions & that I'd consider all of them. I meant it. I've had employees over the years make excellent suggestions.

You're right that this is a lose-lose situation for everyone.

I don't remember, is he related to anyone in the company?

No, he isn't related to anyone.