I should also mention, my home has the metal ductwork. It will be cut back a little and reconnected to the new plenum with flex duct. Insulation on it is in good shape, of course on the light of R value. I may look to add wrap in the future.

Themostat included in the above quote :
Honeywell VisionPro TH800.

ross

rather mediocre efficiency numbers and does not qualify for the $1500 fed tax credit which I certainly would not leave on the table.

here are 8 Rheem possibilities that qualify but you will note all are short on both cooling and heating BTUs for a four ton. I personally would pass and look at Carrier/Bryant systems that qualify.

IMO

3245586 Active Systems RHEEM RPQL SERIES RHEEM MANUFACTURING COMPANY RPQL-048JAZ RHKL-HM4821+RCSL-H*4821A* 46000 13.00 15.00 45500 9.00 29400 1
3245589 Active Systems RHEEM RPQL SERIES RHEEM MANUFACTURING COMPANY RPQL-048JAZ RHKL-HM4824+RCSL-H*4824A* 46500 13.00 15.00 45500 9.00 29200
3245587 Active Systems RHEEM RPQL SERIES RHEEM MANUFACTURING COMPANY RPQL-048JAZ RHLL-HM4821+RCSL-H*4821A 45500 13.00 15.00 45500 9.00 29200
3245590 Active Systems RHEEM RPQL SERIES RHEEM MANUFACTURING COMPANY RPQL-048JAZ RHLL-HM4824+RCSL-H*4824A* 46500 13.00 15.00 45500 9.00 29200
3245602 Active Systems RHEEM RPQL SERIES RHEEM MANUFACTURING COMPANY RPQL-048JEZ RHKL-HM4821+RCSL-H*4821A* 46000 13.00 15.00 45500 9.00 29400
3245605 Active Systems RHEEM RPQL SERIES RHEEM MANUFACTURING COMPANY RPQL-048JEZ RHKL-HM4824+RCSL-H*4824A* 46500 13.00 15.00 45500 9.00 29200
3245603 Active Systems RHEEM RPQL SERIES RHEEM MANUFACTURING COMPANY RPQL-048JEZ RHLL-HM4821+RCSL-H*4821A 45500 13.00 15.00 45500 9.00 29200 1
3245606 Active Systems RHEEM RPQL SERIES RHEEM MANUFACTURING COMPANY RPQL-048JEZ RHLL-HM4824+RCSL-H*4824A* 46500 13.00 15.00 45500 9.00 29200 1

performance/eff numbers provided from AHRI HP Directory

Thanks for the response. A couple of questions:

1)Just be sure I understand the rebate correctly, if I purchase a HP/AH combo rated: >= 8.5 HSPF/ >=14.5 SEER/ >=12 EER, I get 30% of the total cost back on my taxes up to $1500?

2)Based on my quote of the system above, what can I kinda expect from the contractor in the form of a price increase on one of the combos you listed? I'm just looking for a ballpark figure in terms of what I should consider to be fair.

Thanks so much for the advice!

Ross

1) 8.5 HSPF, 15 SEER, 12.5 EER. Yes.

2) With your bid that low to begin with, it's hard to tell. The condenser upgrade (outside) may be around $500, and to upgrade to a variable-speed air handler, probably another $500. Best to ask your dealer since we can only speculate; we don't know your dealer's costs.

Hopefully BaldLoonie sees this post. I'm not as familiar with Rheem's product line like he is, but I recall reading about trouble with the PJL units. I don't have any details. I would avoid the unit personally.

Thank you Ryan.

tigerdunes, is the AH in the (7) system you listed:
3245603 Active Systems RHEEM RPQL SERIES RHEEM MANUFACTURING COMPANY RPQL-048JEZ RHLL-HM4821+RCSL-H*4821A 45500 13.00 15.00 45500 9.00 29200 1

The same as the AH I was quoted? RHLLHM4821JA

Thanks,
Ross

Ross

the RKHL air handler is the true var speed Rheem model and the one I would recommend.

RHKL Series
Includes an energy efficient GE® ECM® Motor, which in most applications, enhances the SEER rating of the outdoor unit. It also slowly ramps its speed up for quiet operation and enhanced customer satisfaction.

The RHLL air handler does have an energy eff blower motor but not var speed.

RHLL Series
Features GE's new X-13 motor, which provides enhanced SEER performance with most Rheem outdoor units.

This would be my preferred Rheem choice although I don't like the fact that it is short on both cooling and heating BTUs for a 4 ton system.

3245605 Active Systems RHEEM RPQL SERIES RHEEM MANUFACTURING COMPANY RPQL-048JEZ RHKL-HM4824+RCSL-H*4824A* 46500 13.00 15.00 45500 9.00 29200

I would expect the tax credit to easily cover any cost difference.

IMO

Thanks for the reply!

I was told by my contractor a short time ago that the RPQL series was new and would not be available for 6 to 8 weeks.
I assume this is accurate, but what's the best way to confirm this?

If this is true, then Rheem is out as choice for me.

I have now been told by another contractor that the RPQL Rheem will not be available til sonetime in April. I am ready to pull the trigger now, can't get an idea on the cost of the RPQL, so I'm looking in a different direction now.

I have a bid on two carrier systems from one contractor that qualifies for the credit. To this point they have done a nice job in doing a load calc and providing the ARI certificates.

25HCB348A30 FV4BNB006 48000 12.50 15.50 46000 8.80
25HPA548A31 FE4ANB006+UI 48000 13.00 15.50 47000 8.70

First system is quoted with the Thermidistat & the 2nd with the Infinity thermostat. What's the overall opinion on both configurations. There is about $1200 difference in the two quotes. WHere's the bang for buck in that difference...bang does not just have to be $'s.

Thanks in advance for any advice offered. :-)

Ross

Not worth $1200 more to go with the Performance setup. The Comfort line are very nice units. Quiet, protected, overall good units for the money. With the thermidistat and variable speed blower, should be a very good system--you won't miss too much by not going with the Infinity since it's not a 2-stage unit anyway.

ross

first, make certain you understand exactly the systems you are comparing.

#1 Carrier Comfort 13 4 ton with var speed air handler and Thermidistat

3034540 Active Systems COMFORT 13 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HCB348A30 FV4BNB006 48000 12.50 15.50 46000 8.80 29400

#2 Carrier Performance 15 "A" mdl version 4 ton with Infinity var spd air handler and Infinity STAT

1258753 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548A30 FE4ANB006+UI 48000 13.00 15.50 47000 8.70 29400

These two configurations would be my choice.

Carrier Performance 15 "H" model version with var speed air handler and thermidistat. "H" model has improved performance/eff numbers over the "A" model mainly in the HSPF heating eff rating.

1169079 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548H30 FV4BN(B,F)005 48000 13.00 15.00 48000 9.00 30000
1125975 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548H30 FV4BNB006 48000 13.00 15.50 48000 9.00 30000

you also should request the air handler to have the "T" tin plated coil and have a full understanding of the warranty

Surprisingly, Carrier's Comfort 15 is not as good as the Comfort 13 system. see below.

3032737 Active Systems COMFORT 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HCB548A30 FV4BNB006 48000 13.00 15.50 45000 8.60 28600

all qualify for the tax credit. you will require a new refrigerant lineset.

IMO

Thanks ryan and tigerdunes!

I have a few more questions. I know anything pricing wise is somewhat subjective.

1)What is the basic difference(s) in the 3 AH's:
FE4ANB006+UI
FV4BNB006
FV4BN(B,F)005

2)Around what should expect to pay to move from the "A" to the "H" model. Living here in central Texas from a heating stand point, is it something that will pay for itself?

3)About what should I expect to pay for the "T" plated AH coil, and where would I see that in the part/model number?

4)Comparing my Perf. 15 quote to your to suggestions, Should I expect moving down from the infinity AH and Stat to the performance AH and thermidistat to offset the cost of the "H" model and "T" AH coil. I guess what I'm asking is should I be better than my original number, higher, or about the same with those changes?

Thanks for the info and your patience in working through this with me! :-)

Ross

ross

going down your list

1.FE4ANB006+UI Infinity air handler with Infinity control
The Infinity control has been and still is the most sophisticated and best control for the residential market IMO. The Infinity control matches with the Infinity air handlers and furnaces.

FV4BNB006,FV4BN(B,F)005
These are Performance series Puron var speed air handlers, different sizes which can affect performance/eff numbers for the system selected. Carrier thermidistats support these air handlers.

2.going to the "H" mdl should not be more than a couple of hundred dollars and certainly well worth it. depending on dealer, the amount may be negotiable.

3.as far as tin plated coil, it carries a 10 yr warranty vs the standard 5 yr warranty-well worth it. number on air handler should end in ATA rather than ACA. cost difference should not be more than several hundred dollars.

4.I would expect on the Performance 15 HP "A" mdl dropping from an Infinity air handler and control to the Performance 15 "H" model, Performance series air handler with tin plated coil, and Carrier thermidistat to easily be a wash as far as price.

as said in previous post, I like either of these system configurations. and yes, please change lineset, save your old and sell the copper. you should also ask that any backup heat strips be staged-good dealer will know axactly what you are talking about.

1169079 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548H30 FV4BN(B,F)005 48000 13.00 15.00 48000 9.00 30000

1125975 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548H30 FV4BNB006 48000 13.00 15.50 48000 9.00 30000

IMO

numbers provided from AHRI HP Directory

Wow! Thanks for the fast reply and all the advice. I'm much better prepared to talk the contractor this afternoon. Hopefully this will be that last of my questions! :-)

Ross

I fired off a quick email to the contractor. Everything they quote already has the "ATA" coil in it and staged heating. He is looking into the other systems now. :-)

ross

good deal. it sounds like you are working with an "on the ball" knowledgeable dealer. I do suggest that your ductwork be inspected and if you have any hot/cold spots in your home and/or noise issues, now is the time to point out and address. The Performance 15 is one of the best sgl stg condensers on the market. I am assuming a four ton is sized correctly for you. you have a central return(s) and use 1" throwaway filters?

IMO

Ross,

what size system are you replacing and how has it performed? keep in mind ductwork must be sized correctly to the size of HVAC. You can't just go up in size without modifications to your ductwork. Without changes can result in noise issues, poor airflow and comfort issues along with possible premature failure of your HVAC.

just so you are aware.

TD

Yes on 4ton. This dealer did the load calc, others did not. I am going to have another walk through to be sure everything is covered. I do have hot/cool spot issues in the house. Kids bedrooms get PLENTY cool while our master is the warmest room in the house. Were are adding on our sun porch to the system as well. All of this has been discussed, but I feel like I want to revisit all of it again to be sure. Yes there is one central return and 1" disposable filters. One contractor had proposed doing a filter cabinet at the airhandler that would take 4" or 5" filters. I really liked the sound of that.

On sizing and duct work. Current outside unit is 3 ton and all contactors feel like it was too small for the house. I know on the hottest days here, it would run for long periods of time and if we turned the air and came home in the afternoon/evening and wanted to drop the temp more than 5*, it would run for at least an hour, maybe two before it would cut off. We have metal ductwork throughout. No one seems concerned about the ductwork being a problem and I have asked a couple directly. Whoever does the job will be dropping a new supply and return on the porch and probably a return in the master BR. Porch is 240sf with windows on two sides. I being told to allow a minimum of .5ton for that room alone.

Ross

Be aware that cooling trouble can be caused from having insufficient ductwork already.

On the air handler, if the 006 will fit the space, go with it. If the 005 needs to be used due to physical constraints, no problem. I like the Performance units as a matched pair, but not for $1200 over the Comfort. Shouldn't be that much of a difference if you drop the Infinity controller. A thermidistat will work well if set up to control humidity (sounds like you're working with a dealer who knows his stuff too).

Air handlers you'd be looking at are:
FV4BNF005T00 or FV4BNB006T00
FE4ANF005T00 or FE4ANB006T00

Non tin-plated coils omit the T with a 0, so FV4BNF005000 for example. Make sure your dealer understands this difference (I see you discusses ATA/ACA with him, but that designation is for OEM evap. coils only).

Thanks Ryan.

I just got the latest quotes from the contractor.

The original Performance w/Infinity AH&Stat and the two systems tigerdunes suggested.

All three are within $90.00 of eachother. The "H" model
is not stocked locally and would need to be ordered. Maybe that is why there is so little difference in the price. I was expecting a little more difference in moving away from the Infinity AH/Stat. AS it is, all (3) systems are just over $7k.

What should I be saying to this contractor to be confident on the duct size?

Thanks folks!

"What should I be saying to this contractor to be confident on the duct size?"

Some don't know how to, or some won't do it, but you want to have your overall total external static pressure of the system tested (i.e., TESP, or ESP). This will tell you the airflow resistance that is caused by poor ductwork. I wouldn't want it above .60 personally, but many are. The variable speed blower works harder with higher static pressures. The Infinity controller measures the static pressure with the Infinity air handler. Sounds like you're dealing with a good dealer, so he probably will know what you're talking about when you bring it up.

I will bring that up with him next week.

I may end up going with the comfort system w/performance AH. I'm disappointed in the price he came back with on the matched performance system. Maybe he was "trying" to persuade not to order it! :-)

Thanks,
Ross

That's the thing about the H model--many areas don't stock them. With the tax credit becoming more forefront, I wouldn't be surprised if that changed. The Comfort unit with a variable speed air handler is a good, popular setup. I've been impressed with the recent Comfort units I've seen. Comfort or Performance outdoor unit with Performance indoor unit would be my choice.

Thanks again for all your help.

OK, I've had a "late entry" from a contractor I really like.
He is proposing a TempStar HP:

3155387 Active Systems SMARTCOMFORT TX 5400 R410A HP TEMPSTAR T4H448GKD* FVM4X60**** 48000 13.00 15.50 48000 8.50

It's basically going to be the TempStar or this carrier from the other contractor I like:

3034540 Active Systems COMFORT 13 PURON HP CARRIER AIRCONDITIO 25HCB348A30 FV4BNB006 48000 12.50 15.50 46000 8.80

Price on the two systems is within $100-$200 of eachother. Both prices include 10yr p&L warranty. TempStar dealer included a fall routine service visit this year and a spring routine service visit next spring in his price.

Any thoughts are welcome. :-)

Thanks!
Ross

Ross

I would give the Carrier system the advantage due to the better heating efficiency. However, if that's not enough, then go with the dealer you have the most confidence in. I have to say though that it's my opinion the Carrier dealer is not being straight or fair in his pricing of the Performance 15 systems. I would ask him what his cost difference is from the Comfort 13 to both the Performance 15 "A" and "H" models.

IMO

He's charging me $900 difference for the performance 15 over the comfort 13...on quotes with the same performance AH.

To go from a perf 15 "A"/infinty AH/infinity Stat to a performance 15 "H"/performance AH/thermidistat only dropped the price $200 looking back at the quotes.

He said the additional cost of the "H" pretty much offset most of the savings in going down in AH & Stat.