Can you familiarize us with how often you use heat, and how cold is typically gets? Is electric relatively cheap in your area? Gas expensive, reasonable?

The York dealer wants too much for his updates to bring the equipment up to a comparable level. Right now, you're being quoted the lower end line of equipment. To bring it up to the level of the Rheem or Lennox, you're looking at over $11,000. I would throw this quote out. It also looks like the dealer wants to install a 4 ton A/C whereas the others quoted (likely more accurately) a 3-ton.

Did any dealer do a load calculation to confirm sizing?

The Rheem furnace is the modulating one--very nice furnace. Why make it the secondary heat source is my question, since the furnace would likely get limited use. I tend to agree with the Lennox dealer on this one. Is this dealer including the appropriate thermostat for the furnace?

That's enough to get started--post back and I'll have more thoughts.

Regarding the tax credit, the Rheem setup does not qualify (neither the heat pump nor furnace do). The furnace falls short of the required 95% AFUE rating, likely in part due to its downflow configuration. It's only advertised as a 90% furnace, not 95%.

I was just told this afternoon by my York Distributor that York is also including a 10 year parts warranty with any 410a condenser. Something to think about.

Hope this helps

I'm in the outlying Seattle area and we use the heat on average of 8 months or more out of 12, way more than cooling. This past winter was one of the worst in memory (I've lived here for 10 Years) ]. There is less than one month of truly hot weather, but as we are used to cooler temps and low humidity, we feel the heat, if you know what I mean. I know humid weather (raised in Fla), but when its 80 + degrees inside the house, its very uncomfortable for us. Due to hydro-electric, rates here are pretty reasonable, but that can fluctuate. The average temp in the Winter months would be lows in the mid to upper 30's, highs in the 40's. Spring temps, low's in the 40's and High's in the 50's for Spring and Fall, about 10 to 15 degrees warmer in the Summer. Historically, anyway. Seems the last few years everything has been out of wack. Much colder and much hotter than is typical. Current rates are 8.4772 cents per kWh for the first 600, 10.258 for remainin. We are heavy users (family of 5 w/three teens) of both electric and gas (furnace, gas fireplace insert and range).

No manual J performed by any of the three, looked at what we had, measured the ducts, looked at registers and returns, windows, etc. The person who took the most measurements and collected the most data recommended a 4T furnace and a 3.5t heat pump, but his price was around 14.5 K before rebates. Too much for out budget, but great product (trane).

None of the 6 shared heat loss calculation numbers or manual J info (if they did it, which I doubt). The trane rep measured outside the house and windows, but not individual rooms or wall thicknesses or insulation to my knowledge.

The Rheem equipment comes with the appropriate thermostat - the RHC-TSt401MDMS (listed on brochure, not bid, but verbally confirmed).

It looks like you have a climate for dual fuel, as I'm sure you've discussed with other dealers given your quotes. If not going dual fuel (heat pump and gas furnace), I would go with something along the lines of the Lennox setup, with a high-efficiency, modulating furnace and basic 13/14 SEER air conditioner. If going dual fuel, I suggest you drop the furnace back to an 80% AFUE one, because to me I see no reason to invest in anything more for a secondary heat source. The heat pump will provide most of the heat. Heat pumps can still provide good heat into the 30 degree range, so the furnace usage should not be much.

OK. So duel fuel is a viable option, but not necessarily the best option? Looking at the equipment and the costs, which system is better? Or are they fairly comparable? Price wise, it seems York is out of the running. Even though the Rheem system doesn't qualify for the Fed rebates, is it as good as (or better than) the Lennox? Lennox parts are proprietary in nature and that could be expensive. On the other hand, a HP may not last as long and may also be more to repair. Any thoughts?

"The Rheem equipment comes with the appropriate thermostat - the RHC-TSt401MDMS (listed on brochure, not bid, but verbally confirmed)."

This thermostat is out-dated; there have been 2 revisions since. The model '412' is the latest and includes the dehumidification on demand feature. Probably won't need it, but nice to have.

If the stat is indeed a '401', it's been lying around for some time. Might be a return item.
V

"The Rheem equipment comes with the appropriate thermostat - the RHC-TSt401MDMS (listed on brochure, not bid, but verbally confirmed)."

This thermostat is out-dated; there have been 2 revisions since. The model '412' is the latest and includes the dehumidification on demand feature. Probably won't need it, but nice to have.

If the stat is indeed a '401', it's been lying around for some time. Might be a return item.
V

Covington,

I'll assume the dealers came up with the proper sizes at 3 tons/90k btu's (or similar size depending on mfg).

If you go with a dual fuel setup, and choosing Lennox (a brand I prefer**), I recommend this setup:

XP14-036-230 heat pump
CX34-38B coil
G60UHV-36B-090 furnace
Honeywell VisionPRO IAQ
Qualifies for tax credit -$1500
heat pump: 13 EER, 15 SEER, 8.75 HSPF
furnace: 80% AFUE, variable speed

If sticking with a high-efficiency furnace and standard a/c:

XC14-036-230 air conditioner (little bit better unit than the XC13 IMHO)
CX34-43C coil
G71MPP-36C-090 furnace
Honeywell VisionPRO IAQ thermostat
Qualifies for tax credit -$1500
air conditioner: 12.5 EER, 15 SEER
furnace: 95% AFUE

** A note about Lennox parts... I would say that's more of a dealer specific thing. In the DC Metro area parts are no problem to get and the wide range of Lennox dealers in this area is a testament to that fact. I talked to a colleague who used to deal Lennox and said they had no problems with parts, and that their Lennox distributor would actually stock their facilities. I think Lennox has a good system, but some don't.

And just because I gave you a couple Lennox potential setups above does not mean they are the only brand worth looking at, of course. Rheem equipment is great too. Hopefully you can find a qualifying setup with them for the tax credit.

Thank you both. I will look into a more updated t-stat if we decide to go forward with Rheem. It would seem they do not have a downdraft furnace in the lineup that will qualify for the Fed tax credit. Currently, I would say that Lennox is the front runner, but I'm still going back and fourth between HP or AC.

Ryan, what is it about the XC 14 that makes it superior to the 13? I have read where the 15 is supposed to be very quiet and have easier diagnostic ability over the 13/14, but don't know much either way.

I haven't looked into going with a lower rated furnace and a higher rated HP. That is something to consider, too. These are comparable systems in the results they deliver? What about cost? Similar pricing with either set up? Is this a 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of another kind of thing? It does make more sense to me to go with a higher rated HP if that is going to be the primary source of heat over the furnace. But that isn't what I've asked for in the bids. I didn't realize that you could get the refund with the HP. DOH!

The Lennox dealer I am working with has an A+ rating with the BBB and has top service recommendations by our local utility company. The Rheem dealer is the same business that installed our water heater so we have used them before and were happy with the work they did. They are also on the utility company's referral list, but not rated by the BBB.

TIA

The XC14 has a little more efficiency (gets the tax credit in the dual fuel system I proposed above) and has a compressor sound blanket which I always think is nice to have for less noise (actually considerably less noise for the 3 ton model--only 70 dBa compared to 76 of the XC13).

I would think the dual fuel setup and a/c and mod furnace setup should be very comparable in price. Neither setup should be any more than what they already want to charge you. I wonder if some companies, taking the tax credit into mind, decided to inflate their prices a bit. While your price may be high, often better companies are higher in price.

Is this a downflow setup you have (air moves down)? That changes things a bit, because the dual fuel setup I proposed above would fall short by just 1/2 SEER point for the tax credit unfortunately. The G71MPP with a/c setup still qualifies as it is 95% efficiency in any configuration.

Thanks, Ryan.

I DO need a downflow set up, which one reason why I'm having trouble with a Rheem system that qualifies. That is also probably why the Lennox rep quoted the G71MPP/AC to begin with. Based on prices that I have seen elsewhere (locally), I do think that the prices are somewhat inflated, do in part to a 10% Costco rewards program. I think that I will ask him to change the AC to the include the XC 14 or 15 for the noise reduction and diagnostics. He briefly mentioned to my husband that the cost difference for a higher rated unit would outpace the life expectancy of the unit in regard to payback, but I wont know that until I see actual numbers.

Is there any way to get that extra 1/2 Seer point in the dual fuel set up? This also happened with the Rheem HP, as well.

BTW, in the small world category, I lived in Annapolis for 10 years before re-locating to the Pacific Northwest. Loved my time there.

Regarding the Lennox, I think if the dealer wants your business he ought to give you the XC14 a/c at no charge. Costs them very little for the upgrade and you're installed price is already more than most areas (seems Pac NW, from posters here, tends to have the higher prices for some reason).

With the dual fuel, I see no way with the Lennox, unfortunately so, but here is a Rheem setup you can consider that qualifies and is a dual fuel setup with a heat pump and 80% 2-stage variable speed furnace:

RGLR-07EBRQR or -10EBRMR (depends on how much heat you actually need for backup) furnace
RPQL-036JEZ heat pump
RCFL-HM3621 coil
VisionPRO IAQ thermostat
13 EER, 15.5 SEER, 10 HSPF, 80% AFUE

SO true about higher pricing. I have asked the Rheem contractor for a quote on the system you've suggested. Once I see the numbers, I will be in a better position to decide. Thanks for all your help and suggestions.

I emailed the above suggestions to the Rheem contractor and he dropped off a new bid today. Everything was exactly as you specify with the exception of the T-Stat: RHC-TST 304UNMS . He also said that this would qualify for a $600 manufacture rebate, but when I checked, that particular t-stat was NOT listed in the Heat Pump Rebate Matrix for 2009. It lists 203, 303 and 305 UNMS, 402 DFNS, 411-412 MDMS and 501 CMMS stats. I don't want to blow the rebate, so should I insist one one of the above, and if so, which one?

The quoted price was about $1,200 less than their original bid (see Bid # 3 above). "Limited" parts warranty of 5 years, "limited" twenty-year warranty on the heat exchanger. Is an extended warranty advisable? What would be a reasonable term and price?

I'd appreciate any advise or suggestions. If I can get confirmation on the T-Stat, this bid gets the #1 position over the Lennox offering.

I'm ready to move forward on this. It has been a very long process and I am so very appreciative of all the advice and suggestions I've gotten here. You can not know how helpful it has been. It has saved me from making a very expensive error and I thank you all.

Covington,

Regarding the termostat, I am unfamiliar with Rheem's thermostats. While I do prefer the VisionPRO IAQ for its dehumidification abilities, if one of Rheem's thermostats gets you the rebate then that's the direction I'd go. Confirm that the thermostat is necessary for the rebate, though. And if it is, perhaps one of those models can control humidity as well.

Extended warranties typically are sold under a 10-year term (i.e., 10 years coverage on all parts and labor). It really is beneficial down the road if something goes wrong because labor costs tend to be very high. It can easily pay for itself if something really goes from. I see the costs range anywhere from $500-700 additional. It's completely up to you though whether you choose to add this. Some like the peace of mind.

You're welcome. It can get confusing with all the numbers for many, but we're here to help.