You might be able to find some answers at the FAQ section of Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day and Healthy Bread in Five Minutes a Day, or post there for some specific help.

Here is a link that might be useful: Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day

I'm using a lot less yeast than the Artisan Bread recipe, more like the Sullivan St/Bittman recipe. Is anyone here using so little yeast and so much water?

We used to make the Sullivan bread all the time. I made it again this week as I used it for 4 pizzas. A couple things...even though you are going to place this dough into a loaf pan you need to turn it out and fold it as if you were going to make a boule. It needs that extra movement of the yeast/gas through the dough and the flour that you use to fold it I think is essential.

The layer you are seeing is your use of Pam. I have had it happen to regular cakes when I used it and only use real butter to grease a pan for cake batter. If you think of your very wet Sullivan loaf as wet cake batter I believe this is the reaction that is taking place.

Also as far as internal baking temp I find that the bread is much improved both crust and crumb by baking to 210. I preheat to 500 pot/oven. I place the loaf into the cast iron pot and place in oven and lower temp to 460 for 15 min then uncover and bake another 20 min. It makes a truly lovely loaf. I don't think 190-200 is long enough...of course this is just my opinion :)

Try stopping the Pam and try folding the bread and then lightly placing it into the pan that has been lightly buttered. I am not sure that this will help but I believe it will . I also think you can cut a piece of parchment for the bottom of the pan and just use that instead of any lube. Good Luck and please post back.c

The bread would stick until it was totally cooled in the pan, even with butter so I switched to Pam for baking (with flour in it). I will try parchment paper, if I can get a good loaf shape with that. Oh, and just oiling the bowl I let the boules rise in is enough with turning the dough into the preheated Dutch oven, but oiling a room-temp metal loaf pan and letting it rise in that made a greasy bottom. Been doing a lot of experimenting. Too bad the slices from the boules don't ft in the Tupperware sandwich containers LOL.

I was wondering if I should bake in loaf pan alone and not put it in preheated clay baker? Too much water? I just increased ingredients proportionally to get a larger loaf, the original 3c flour 12oz water recipe didn't make a large(high) enough loaf in these pans.

But I'll try adding flour and handling it a bit more like I do the boules before putting it in pan for 2nd rise, maybe that will do the trick. Making sure it's baked to 200-210 could help too, though I would think that the middle would be gummy if it wasn't baked enough, not the (almost) bottom.

What do you experienced bakers think of putting the loaf pan inside the preheated baker? Good idea or not? It does seem to have more oven spring doing it that way as opposed to just covering the pan with foil - even the parchment-lined foil let too much moisture out I think. When I first starting trying to make sandwich loaf I covered with foil and the loaf was too dense and gummy, I've got it down to just that layer near the bottom now ;-).

Thanks for your help. I don't know if I will bake tomorrow, but should at least get dough started and can probably find time to do it during the day on Wed.

The higher finished baking temp didn't have anything to do with it being under-baked per se or the layer at the bottom..I just think the crust especially is nicer in these breads if it is a bolder bake.

Would you like a different recipe for sandwich bread ? There are so many wonderful ones out there that you can easily bake in a loaf shape. These wet breads really are not intended for loaf breads. Just a thought. I have some really lovely easy loaf bread recipes that I have used for many decades. c

Yes, I would, thank you. I started baking the no-knead breads b/c I didn't like the way the loaves turned out in the bread machine (even if I baked them in the oven instead of the machine). I have a problem with my left wrist, forearm and elbow and can't knead.

I tried the KA whole wheat sandwich loaf and DD didn't care for that, it was too dense.

Very little yeast would be good since yeast is pretty expensive and I'm baking 3x/wk.

Thanks

'Very little yeast would be good since yeast is pretty expensive and I'm baking 3x/wk.'

If you are not living away from civilization (or can find a friend/relative who isn't), I would suggest you go to COSTCO, BJ's, or Sam's Club and get a pound of yeast. You could then consider it to be almost free. Keep a small jar in the 'fridge and the rest in the freezer.

I bake the no kneed method on occasion. It sounds like your normal methods come out well. As trailrunner said, they are not really designed for sandwich breads. BTW, I assume the failure with the internal pan method is that the wet dough doesn't hit the super heated, high specific heat (thick pre-high-heated wall) of the romertopf or other heavy unit.

But back to sandwich bread; I don't see why anyone would want extra heavy crust or big irregular holes for the mayo to ooze thru. You said that you didn't like the bread machine mixed, but pan baked loaf. I am not an expert on the greater whole grain breads, but I would suspect that a too dense loaf is the fault of the recipe or that too much whole grain was used for your degree of lightness.

Might I suggest that you try the bread machine again with some basic white bread or something from trailrunner. My basic bread would be:
3.5 c flour (for a standard bread pan)
1 t salt
2 t yeast
1 egg*
add water to running bread machine until dough will kneed nicely without a mess on the bottom but not too stiff.
I usually add a little sugar and a T of oil or (bacon) grease, but the above is your basic white recipe.

The nice thing about the liquid adding method is that you don't have to worry about exact measurements but adjust until you have a soft dough. This also allows you to add extra ingredients without too much thinking. If the dough is messy, just add a little more flour until it comes together again.

* I usually scoop the yolk (along with some white) into the machine, but reserve a little white to coat the dough just before baking.

Thanks chas. I mixed up a double batch of my basic half-wheat bread, am letting it rise in old icing bucket. I usually do 2 loaves at a time, though I will have to start freezing one since by the time we finish 2 (about 2-3 days) it's starting to get a little hard. 2nd loaf fits in my big Corningware roaster with Pyrex lid. I try not to run the oven every day - wonder if it would turn out OK in my Nesco?

DS likes dense bread, DD doesn't, though she doesn't like it as airy as Wonder bread. The only times they've ever had white sandwich bread was at Grandma's (she also got DD hooked on mayo - the rest of us don't eat it, and I've lately been giving DD turkey sandwiches w/o it, she hasn't said anything).

Come to think of it, the recipes I mixed in the BM were 1 from the manual and the other was the KAF WW, so not a wet dough, though middle collapsed on both. I haven't been getting really big holes in the loaves - other than this moist condensed layer near the bottom (maybe b/c not preheating the loaf pan? Or could be Pam, those are the 2 differences with making loaves vs boules) the bread has been very good. It doesn't get as brittle a crust as the boules but it is a heavier crust than store-bought sandwich bread.

My BJ's membership expired 2/28, time to renew. But the last time I was in there, I didn't see any yeast. Might be a seasonal thing since they had plenty at the holidays. Did get 10 lb of KAF for $7, used the last of it today, but I got Bob's wheat and white on sale for $3.59/5lb last week, so got 10 lb of each. Target had yeast I think it was about $5 for a jar, better than the $8 in grocery store at Xmas. If shipping wasn't so much, I'd order it from KA. No Costco or Sam's around here.

So do you think I could use 1.5C of WW flour in your recipe and still come out OK? The only white bread we like is French bread and rolls - white sandwich bread always seems too soft and gummy in your mouth.

Good Morning...I have never used a bread machine and do all my breads with the Kitchen Aid mixer if they are yeast breads or knead by hand. All of my sourdough I do with the stretch and fold method..so no active kneading. It is most like what you are doing with the wet dough when you take it out and fold it but you do it over a 2 hr time period and then let it rest and shape and bake. I don't think the time that it takes for you to make the bread would work with what you are doing. I can point you to The Fresh Loaf for lots of ideas on breads . I am afraid all of my breads would be inappropriate due to the length of time sourdough, hand kneading or using the KA...unless you have a KA mixer ?

I will link below to Instant Yeast from the Webstaurant store. They are WONDERFUL and I buy a lot from them . I have had fantastic service and the prices and quality are second to none. The price is only 2.99 a # for yeast..and they have regular active dry also . You can get a couple and put them in the freezer and as chas says take out what you need and keep in a jar. That is what I do and it keeps for years. Will save you a bundle and it is a great product..read the reviews.

Good luck and let me know if you have a larger KA. Also I always make my bread ahead and freeze it. It is wonderful when thawed and one couldn't tell. That way you only bake once a week in a marathon session. Look at the pans on Webstaurant. They have very good brands for much less. Can you tell I like them a lot ;) ?

Here is a link that might be useful: Yeast

Sourdough might work - I just need to get the starter going, then it won't take any more time than the no-knead. The hardest part for me to remember to do in time is to get the dough in the pan for the final rise 2 hours before baking - I try to bake just before or during dinner so that taking advantage of the hot oven (wish I could figure out what to cook in there while it's preheating to 450 though LOL, that half hour with empty roasters in the oven bothers my Yankee conscience!). I'm home (but in and out) during the day so finding a few minutes to fold dough and then letting it rise isn't a big deal as long as timing of 1st rise, 2nd rise (if needed) and final rise isn't critical. Things just get a little hectic late afternoon/dinner time with kids' after-school activities.

I do have an Artisan KA in the pantry, haven't used it in years, might have to find a place for it to reside permanently on the counter since it's so heavy I don't want to be hauling it out every other day but if only baking once a week I could have DH pull it out and put it away for me.

Great !! sounds very doable. I will link to a couple places that have wonderful trustworthy formulas and for making sourdough starters.

1) Wild Yeast Blog- Susan never makes a mistake. Her formulas are wonderful and always work. so does her technique for making a starter. She also has some videos that are very helpful. She hosts a wonderful monthly Yeastspotting that has tons of contributors so you can get lost for hours looking at other blogs on baking bread !
http://www.wildyeastblog.com/ and the link to her starter:
http://www.wildyeastblog.com/2007/07/13/raising-a-starter/

2) The Fresh Loaf. Again there are tons of contributors. I used the formula on here for my starter but Susan's listed above is also fine. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10251/starting-starter-sourdough-101-tutorial

3)Sourdough Surprises. You can't go wrong with this site ! Lots of great bakers and tons of monthly uses for starter. The people who post have great blogs and you can get many very reliable ideas from them. Korena has very reliable recipes as does Almacucina and Pizzarosa and Gingered Whisk.

4) My Challah recipe which I have posted on GW a number of times over the years. It is SO easy and makes great sandwich loaves...just put them in greased pans and let rise the 2nd time for approx 30-45 min . Bake at 350 for 30 min. Makes 3 9x5 loaves.

7 c unbleached bread flour
2 c warm water
1/4 c sugar
1/4 c softened butter or margarine
3 large eggs ( have a 3rd yolk only for glazing set aside)
1 1/2 tsp kosher salt
4 tsp instant dry yeast ( not rapid rise...you can also sub active dry yeast)

Place 6 1/2 c of flour into a large bowl of stand mixer . In a large cup measure or bowl place warm 100 degree water and add all of yeast and a large pinch of the sugar. When yeast foams add the rest of sugar, salt, soft butter/margarine, eggs. Beat with a whisk. Pour over all the flour and gently fold all the flour and liquids together just till all is barely moist on speed 1. Cover with a towel and leave to autolyse for 30 min. Use speed 2 to knead dough with dough hook. Use last 1/2 c flour as needed to allow dough to clear bowl. Should feel soft and pliable but not sticky. Should form smooth ball. About 5 min. May add very light sprinkles of flour to prevent sticking. The dough should hold together and not be dry or wet . Place back in large clean and oiled bowl. Cover with towel or plastic and let rise till double...about 1 or 1 1/2 hrs. Remove from bowl and using a scale divide into 3 loaves . Do not let it over proof.

Preheat oven on convection bake at 350. Take reserved yolk and blend in a Tbsp or so of 1/2 and 1/2. Brush generously over the loaves and then dust with sesame seeds or poppy seeds. Even if you don't use seeds make sure and glaze the loaves. The keeping quality as well as the fragrance and crust are worth the extra effort. Bake for 30 minutes. Internal temp with digital thermometer is approx 200-205. Cool and enjoy. c

5) My Oatmeal Bread.
1Tbsp yeast dissolved in 1/4 c warm water.
2 c regular old fashioned rolled oats soaked in 1 c boiling water. Add 1/4 c molasses, 1/4 butter or margarine, 2 tsp salt,1/4 brown sugar to the oats. Let soak 30 min. Add 1 c cool water. Make sure mixture is less than 100 degrees before using. Add yeast mixture to it when cool. Place 5 c, AP flour in your KA. Pour in all of above mixture. Use speed 1 to mix only till all is damp. Cover and autolyse 30 min. Use speed 2 to knead till clears bowl. May use sprinkles of flour as needed . Follow usual procedure. Rise in greased covered bowl till double..approx. 1 hr. Shape 3 loaves. Bake at 350 approx 45 min till done. Lovely Bread !!

Let me know if you want a dark or light rye or buttermilk bread and others !! Hope you enjoy. c

Thanks - eggs I have, but yeast I bought the Fman's Bread Machine yeast, says it can be used for Rapidrise recipes so will it work for the challah? DD wants to braid some bread, don't know if she'll eat that as sandwich bread. Do you have any good recipes for whole wheat? I should also try some multigrain since I have quinoa, bulgur and pearl barley to use (she liked the sample of the new Kellogg's hot cereal so I tried to make some, she didn't care for it but I really like quinoa mixed with oatmeal).

I would love rye bread recipes but need to find rye flour - place where I buy Bob's doesn't carry it. And buttermilk - I haven't seen buttermilk in store, does buttermilk powder, sour milk, or milk with vinegar give same texture/taste?

Thanks so much

Hi yes I have used the Bread Machine Yeast in the Challah. They call it rapid rise but it is more like Acitve Dry. Yeast is SO confusing !! This will make 3 braids. There are lots of great YouTube videos of braids. Your DD will love looking at some of them for ideas :) Challah is the perfect bread for grilled cheese sandwiches...never will you find better ! It is also wonderful for French toast and croutons when it gets stale. Bread pudding also. Can't go wrong with Challah. I do have a good whole wheat . I will get it out and type it in.

You really need to get your starter going and then make SD with a soaker...that means you take the whole grains and soak them overnight. It accomplishes several things. The most important is that the grains are way more digestible and also you get so much more nutrition from the flours and grains when they interact with the enzymes in the SD and you retard the loaves overnight for the bake the next day.

The price for Bob's Red Mill on Amazon is great ! You can also sign up for the regular shipments to save even more. They have the bulk yeast too and all is free shipping. Walmart has the best buttermilk. It is called Bulgarian Buttermilk and has more good bacteria in it . Very thick and wonderful. You can use the powdered or just add vinegar or lemon to milk but it isn't nearly as tasty or thick. I have some great rye breads. Will add those too. Please take a look at Wild Yeast Blog..she has a lot of breads that aren't sourdough also . c

I wasn't sure if I needed to pre-cook the quinoa and barley before adding to dough, bulgur I thought might be OK just to add with flour (esp. if making no-knead, it's so wet).

Can you just take a photo of your WW recipe? Save you some typing...

First I'm going to try butter and flour (I have expired cornmeal - still good for dusting?) instead of Pam, and baking to 205-210, see if the dough I started this AM turns out tomorrow. Then we'll try challah - I don't have convection oven, do I need to change temp or time?

I don't recall prices of other grains, but my normal price for Bob's white and WW flour is $4.49/5 lb, this week was 20% off so got it $3.59. Quinoa was a lot, but I got it (not Bob's but organic) for less at BJs before membership expired. Too bad Job Lot and BJ's don't have rye flour. I do have to go to Walmart soon to return some things so will look for buttermilk.

I've been retarding my dough by putting in 50 degree basement ovenight (or a few days). Right now the bucket is just on the floor of the pantry (thermostat set to 67 but may be colder there since I can definitely feel the cold tile in front of the basement door, pantry is right next to it). Since I want to bake tomorrow I will probably leave it in the pantry tonight.

Off to check the WY blog!

For soakers usually you pour boiling water on the grain and let it set overnight or in some cases a few hours. I don't like bulgur unless it has had boiling water poured over...a little too toothy !

Not sure about expired cornmeal...have to taste and smell it. It can get rancid..I keep my grains in the freezer. All flour but white AP.

No difference in timing for the Challah..same convection as regular. Let me know how it goes. You will love WYB.

That price for white and ww is a very good one. I was referring to the specialty flours from BRM. Check Amazon they are a very good price if you get the bulk packs and do the regular shipments.

No problem about recipes...will get to it later or tomorrow. c

Here is almost exactly the light whole wheat bread recipe I have used in the past. I no longer use yeast. She has a great tutorial and pics. Hope you enjoy! A 100% ww is a lot more challenging so I would start with this one. c

Here is a link that might be useful: WW bread 50%

WYB looks like I'll have to wait to make SD starter - 67 is too cold. Looked at the last link and maybe I'll try it, though I don't like to add fat to bread (unless it's my grandma's stollen, which is more like a pastry, only make it on Christmas Eve it's so fattening). But OMG how nicely that slices! I have to find a better bread knife.

Everyone took storebought bread again today sinve I didn't bake yesterday, was thinking of baking today but put the bucket (doubled in 24 hours) in the basment, had to run DD to school today since substitute bus driver either forgot her stop or was really late. And plans for dinner/Scouts have changed tonight so now I have to do grocery shopping today and feed all 4 of us before normal meeting time. Still has to be a quick dinner - I think I'll do the eye round roast tomorrow and take advantage of hot oven (either before or after) to bake bread then, since we have enough Sara Lee for lunch tomorrow (just no Special K cereal for breakfast!).

Use a heating pad set on lowest setting. It is so easy and a great way to be able to start a starter. I just put a pot holder in my oven door to hold it slightly open and the lights were plenty warm enough. Near a heating vent in your home or on a higher shelf where it is warmer ? Lots of different ways to get it started. Only need to keep it extra warm while you are starting out the first 7 days or so. After that mine grows just fine in our 68 degree house. Hope your day gets less hectic !! c

You can use your knife sharpening stone to sharpen a serrated bread knife. DH followed the technique on the youtube video and it works great. The knife is like a razor now !! The WW recipe only has 2 TB butter in a 2# loaf...very little for that much bread. It does make a lovely sandwich loaf. c

Here is a link that might be useful: how to sharpen a serrated knife

Just want to second that silicone oven mitt in the door with oven light on technique, which I learned from Trailrunner, for starting your starter. The mitt has to be doubled over for my oven to stay below 80. You may need to experiment with mitt thickness.

The heating tray is in use for pepper seeds right now (and tomato seeds starting tomorrow LOL). Do you have to keep the SD starter at 80* the whole 1st week? I can't go a week w/o using my oven. And we set AC to 75 during the summer. Don't know what top of fridge is though, it's pretty warm though I don't have a lot of height to bottom of cabinet I can set a 2-3" high rectangular Tupperware container there. Or just wait until my tomatoes have germinated ;-)

We have geothermal heat so air coming out of vents isn't too warm, but about 80. Maybe I can find out-of-the way corner in DR or LR to put the starter, so someone won't trip over it. But once I get my mini-greenhouses set up in the family room for my seedlings, I can keep it pretty warm and humid in those even with CFL grow lights. Not sure how cold it would get at night when I turn the lights off.

I did stop by Goodwill (next to store where I had to return CFLs - bought Soft White instead of Daylight), found an electric knife with cutting guide so maybe that will help get consistent slices.

Did my dough look OK to you? Basement is just under 50*.

Gotta shower and get dinner going (frozen chicken thighs in the pressure cooker? Italian sausage, potato, and spinach soup?) before Scouts. Be back tomorrow ;-)

OK, baked the bread this afternoon after teacher conference, we each had a slice for dinner. Baked in nonstick 9x5 pans coated with stick margarine (all my butter was frozen) and flour, inside clay baker/corningware roaster preheated to 450. Baked 30 minutes, then tops off, another few minutes to get brown and then check temp - still gooey inside (180?) so took pans out of the baking vessels and put directly on oven racks, another 30 min or so until remote registered 200.

No (or very very thin) gooey layer at bottom so maybe not using Pam helped but I still have a hard crust on the bottom, I thought it was just my old knife that made it hard to cut through all the way but no, the bottom crust is just as hard (if not harder) than the top crust. Not too much trouble getting a slice started (and bread is soft, can push down on it as I'm slicing), not tough/chewy or brittle top crust but bottom is a little chewy.

Think this is b/c of greasing the pan, or baking inside closed vessel? Or is b/c of nonstick pan?

I'm beginning to think that the gummy dense layer I originally posted about is not so much what I'm greasing the pan with, but b/c of the hard crust - caused by the baking vessel(s) b/c when I bake directly in a preheated non-metallic pan, I don't have this problem.

This post was edited by ajsmama on Thu, Mar 27, 14 at 19:00