Yes kitchenshock - clearly our consumption or lack there of impacts the global economy including those in China and India. What remains to be seen is if we will see the errors of our ways and regain the drive and innovation that made us great or if we are beyond the point of no return. Others who do not have the comfortable lives that many Americans enjoy will continue to be driven to work hard and make sacrifices to improve their situation for themselves and their families. I'm not so sure I see the drive and willingness to make sacrifices here. We seem to just want the government (aka taxpayers) to take care of thing and prevent us from suffering the consequences of bad decisions and irresponsible behavior.

yea but we have a load of reality tv shows.hahahaha

I think people in this country realize that this is a global eonomy - anyone who looks around at the jobs that have gone in the last 2 or 3 decades, knows this.

This global economy, however, doesn't seem like a healthy economy. The expansion has been based, to a large degree, on the people of the US being super consumers of imported merchandise. Quite often, poor quality merchandise. Certainly, bad times will make people cut back on unnecessary things and perhaps begin looking for quality, rather than quantity.

The global expansion resembles the recent housing fiasco - not based on value, need, or financial responsibility.

I do agree that Americans don't seem to want to make the sacrifices, and they have been taught that they don't have to be responsible because the government will force the taxpayers to pick up the slack. Nothing our government has done in the last few months would make them think otherwise.

Yup - we're running out of people willing to generate the level of true productivity necessary to support themselves and their needs and wants or accept that they cannot have all of their needs and wants fulfilled. More people want easy "get rich" quick schemes to get everything they want NOW. Those schemes are often built on a house of cards foundation. When the house collapses they do not feel any responsibility for having taken that level of risk to get what they wanted with less effort - someone else should help them recover from the mess.

Problem is we're running out of people who are willing to work hard and who have the ability to make smart decisions that generate the productivity and wealth required to support the rest of the population. More and more people want more than they are willing and/or able to "earn" and we're running out of the other kind of folks. Our society - particularly parents raising kids, the legal profession and the government - is creating a culture that dis-incents the former and rewards the latter. Doesn't bode well for the future.

Gibby,

We are in complete agreement here.

There is nothing wrong with striving or wanting the better things and a better life. The problem is so many people try to have it on not nearly enough money.

I'm not worried about the youth of our country. Every generation says the youth are ungrateful and lazy. The truth is our youth are better educated and smarter than ever before. You can say they are lazy, but most kids I know have schedules that would wear out their parents/grandparents. We place a lot of demands on our children and always expect more no matter what they give.

Somehow, our own personal struggles and accomplishments are always greater than those of others. I think we have evolved to only remember the postive things about ourselves.

chris8796 -- I don't agree that American youth is better educated than ever, but I do agree with your statement about exagerating our personal superiority over generalized 'others'.

We are ALL spoiled in this country. All the frugal living and good morals in the world can be for naught in the face of the economic and health tragedies that *very good people* are facing today.

We do have a lot of young people with (costly) degrees, but that doesn't equal 'better educated' in my observations.

I don't know if the children are better educated or not. I know they are being taught a lot of things - but that doesn't necessarily mean they are getting an education that will serve them in the future. Also, I don't know that ALL or even a significant percentage are getting an education.

As for kids schedule, I agree. Kids are very busy, playing ball, cheerleading, band, etc. Again, that doesn't mean they are going to be willing to go out into the world and put that much effort into making a living. It just means they are busy.

I'm not sure what was mean by >>>>>. Whatever our faults, shortcomings, or selective memory, the fact is we are facing some hard times in this country and in the world. Our children are going to be competing with people from all over the globe. We can't just say they are better educated than Americans have ever been - if they are. We can't just say we are Americans so that gives us an edge - it no longer does. Being superior in America no longer gives our kids the edge.

A father once told me his son was having a tough time in med school. He said he had always been the top kid in his class, the valedictorian, etc. - then he entered college where he was competing with dozens of valedictorians. Our kids are going to be competing with thousands all over the world.

They also may very well have to learn to adjust and make do and create their own jobs.

We are in decline because we fell for a bunch of pie in the sky. People were told let the steel, consumer electronics go, our kids to good to work with hands and get dirty. Have them all get MBAs and such we aail supply the brains and everyone else will supply the brawn. We started building malls, banks , fast food outlets and other sales based enterprises. These things all touted as economic expansion and a healthy economy. No one thought about the fact that none of these enterprises generate and infuse any new capital into the economy, they simply move money around and take a portion out each period to pay for the imports. Our economy,s capital is like a 55 gal barrel of water, if a few spoonfuls a day are removed and none ever replaced the barrel will eventually empty. Our eceonomy is no different, no way can we continue to allow billions in trade deficits each quarter and not go under. People can tout free trade and a global economy all they want, but free trade has to be fair, no way can a US worker with his pay compete with an Asian worker earning 1/5th his salary, We can tout import quality as an excuse ,however if things continue as they are it will all be a moot point we will be broke and struggling to eat and keep warm.

i disagree that things made in other countries are of poor quality. i am sure some are but what i buy is very good or i won't buy it.

i hate that our country is out sourcing our jobs.

Stargazzer, I don't know what you are talking about purchasing that is quality - maybe it depends.

We were very poor growing up, there is no way my Mother would have purchased any clothing I have seen lately - at any price. People just would not have accepted the shoddy workmanship and materials that are in what we buy today.

There may be exceptions, but I don't think I have purchased much of anything lately that I would say was quality.

I wish you all would stop the 'we got cushy and want to only be comfy talk.' And it is all our fault talk.
It wasn't ALL our fault. Corporations are not people and they are the ones that sold us out. They took our ideas and jobs
and sent them to China. Now their idea is to bring down the cost of living here. So we will all be working for 38 cents
an hour. A Soon to be third world country.
It appears to me that we are being robbed. By wealthy bankers wanting bailouts. By greedy corporations.
Most people struggle and work very hard in this country while not making more than 10 yrs ago. Most two parent familys both work to try to keep up with just everyday bills. It used to be there was a certain quality of life.
Like work to Live not live to work. That we somehow lost.
Maybe we need to rearrange our priorities.
One thing we have here is land. One thing we can do is grow food. There is going to be a need here for people who dont mind getting their hands dirty. If we want clean local farm
fresh. And we dont want illegals doing the work.
I suggest you buy a few books on foraging and plant ID in your local area.
Once the deflation stops the inflation is sure to follow.
Although I have not seen many true deals out there as of late. sheshe

We are at fault, first if we did not rush out and buy the imports they would stay on the shelves and companies such as Wal Mart would quit shipping them here. Most of us still do not realize that our economy cannot support a 100 Billion and up trade deficit each quarter and not go under. We are fed all the happy talk about a global economy, fair trade and told things will eventually balance out, no way no how. This thing could be turned around in a month, just buy American made products. However, this will not happen because everyone thinks his little bit won,t hurt. Few realize eventually this recession is going to hit everyone and their high quality import won,t mean a thing.

Your barrel is refilled by us making PROFIT in a service based economy. We don't export as much services as we import goods, so the PROFIT of services remains here generating wealth - greater than any manufacturing can.

What exactly is a serviced based economy? It is a phrase I have heard, but never understood.

Actually, it has been the politicians, owned by the corporations, who have sold us out with their trade deals, open borders, etc. Yet we keep electing them. The people of this country continue to vote along party lines when a good look at the situation would prove to them, both so called parties, are working toward the same goal. Both so called parties have promoted these destructive situations.
As for the illegals, it has never been because Americans don't want the jobs. It has been that the illegals are such a bargain for the employers because taxpayers subsidize with food, medical care, etc.

We could change all this within matter of months in this country. If we simply stayed out of Wal Mart for a few months, or only bought what was absolutely necessary there - absolutely necessary. Yes, other stores sell the same poor quality, imported items, but Wal Mart sets the tone for this.

It is true, we all think we are just one and our actions have no effect. The fact is, if the people of this country would get together and work together, we could turn it around.

As long as we divide ourselves along political lines, that won't happen. As long as we let our differences define us rather than the things we have in common and our common survival, it won't happen.

What is the biggest chunk of our national debt? Bush's undeclared WAR. How long will we be in Iraq? FOREVER. In Afganistan? FOREVER. This will accomplish....what?

A service based economy is one in which 50% of the work force is in the service sector - and not in manufacturing, agriculture, or extraction.

The service sector is the part of industry or business which deals with the marketing and selling of intangible products rather than physical goods.

Although much broader than this, think in terms of tourism and the hospitality industries - hotels, motels, clubs, bars, any attractions, Disney World, Las Vegas, Carnival cruises, etc. Anything marketed or provided for us as unnecessary but part of a lifestyle, nonetheless, falls in thto the service side.

Oh, my goodness.

So we divest ourselves of the means to provide our basic necessities, including military supplies for our defense - and we make our country just one big theme park?

Sorry, if that sounds sarcastic, I really don't mean it that way, but it sounds like what is being said.

That absolutely sounds like putting us at the mercy of any country that produces our necessities.

For the most part, those 'service' jobs are not high paying jobs. They won't pay enough for the workers to take cruises, etc. We will have to rely on foreigners coming her so we can 'serve' them.

One other thing, many of those 'service' jobs in the tourism industries are being filled by illegal aliens. Much of their income is also siphoned out of the country,they do not pay into the tax system in large numbers, and they rely heavily on social services.

That frightens me.

Agreed on the unnecessary war we have going. We need to get out of other country's business and take care of our own country. All that money that was/is/will be spent in Iraq and Afghanistan could have been much better used - or much better saved.

It's not sarcastic - it's exactly what a service economy means and how it's defined. And no, most service sector jobs are not high paying jobs, they never have been high paying and probably never will be high paying jobs. Like minimum wage for the most part and the sole purpose is to provide service for those who can still, and will always be able to afford to stay in hotels, dine out or eat fast food, take cruises, gamble in casinos, spend a week in California or Florida with Mickey and Goofy...

We're losing high paying jobs in record numbers; and since that seems to be the one thing that does trickle down, we'll lose low paying jobs as well. But I think it might well be true that the state of the economy here will stem the tide of illegal immigration when nothing else seemed to work - less siphoning off of American dollars and taxing our social services, as feared above. Our own people will be begging for the jobs they'd never considered doing before and our own people will be taxing social services.

Those who have jobs and at least some degree of job security are not going to give up those jobs and security. No mass Boomer retirements. Who can blame them? There's going to be a hue and cry this spring when new graduates start looking for work - and much of what they find available to them will be in the service sector at minimum wage.

That just doesn't seem to me to be a sound economy for our nation. I have heard of the 'service' economy for a long time and never had anyone actually explain what it meant.

Yes, I'm thinking the economy will have some effect on the flow of illegals, but I'm thinking they are going to be made legal by this next administration and will still be here competing for those jobs.

Also, I agree that people are not going to retire, my husband has no plans to stop working.

My husband had no plans to stop working either, however the corporation which took over the company he works for has different ideas and is closing the manufacturing plant he now works. So this is all our fault - we should have gotten out of manufacturing and what - work at McDonalds? That is what our President wanted to convert to the list of manufacturing, since all our other manufacturing facilities are being sent out of theUS.

At one time several years ago,the cry was "buy American". Now there is very little made in America.

I have been very confused WHY our government and leaders would want us in a global economy. It should be FAIR trade instead of free trade. Instead of allowing tax credits, companies who go off shore to get the low paid workers should be charged tariffs.

The service industry will not last. Who is going to take advantage of those services - only the fat cats who traded our livelihood for the illegals or off shore employees. The average American will not make enough money to survive.

Sorry, but I am of the opinion that Charity begins at home, and closing our factories, sending our scrap metal to China and importing cheap and tainted items is not helping us. Going green won't help- too expensive for the average person; rebuilding our infrastructure is needed, but again I don't see a turn around in our economy and I agree with ladytexan that many of those jobs are going to be given to the now illegals who will be made legal.

Making illegals into citizens may be the only way to force them to pay taxes and other expenses that they are not paying now.

And yes, China and Japan both hold large notes on the USA. Either of them could probably take us over without firing a shot. As the economy worsens, crime is going to go up. States are running out of money to pay unemployment, other expenses won't be met for medicare, etc.

Certainly without our manufacturing, we won't be able have weapons, ammunition, or other tools for protecting ourselves as allowed in the constitution - and that has already be tested in court trying to rid citizens of that right to bear arms.

There may never have been a time when the statement that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer is more accurate than now - except that the middle class which has always been the backbone of the economy is diminishing.

calirose, It seems as if we are of the same mind.

It is sad to hear of things like your husband's situation.

The actions of the government in allowing the importation of foreign steel, some 20 years ago, devastated a huge area of NE Texas. Many people do not realize or think about the fact, you don't have to be in manufacturing for the loss of those jobs to have an adverse affect on you. It ripples through every business in the area.

It caused us to have to give up everything we had worked for and start over. We were luckier than most are today. At least there were opportunities elsewhere.

What is happening to this country right now, just can't be a good thing. I'm not sure where it is headed, but for the immediate future, it will continue downhill, I'm thinking.

I don't think illegals will ever pay taxes. If they do file a return, they will receive tax money back in the form of EITC. Certainly employers are not going to let it happen if they have to collect and match taxes and pay workerman's comp, etc.

Whatever the government does will be just to shut up the American people who want someting done. I have read there are still a number of illegals here who were eligible for the first amnesty, but just don't want citizenship.

We could change all this within matter of months in this country. If we simply stayed out of Wal Mart for a few months, or only bought what was absolutely necessary there - absolutely necessary. Yes, other stores sell the same poor quality, imported items, but Wal Mart sets the tone for this.

So, do you shop at WalMart? I don't. Like you said, their products are usually poorly made, the employees poorly trained and poorly paid. While I'm at it, I despise their parking lot layout.

I DO try to buy American. It almost always costs more but if one's goal is to retain manufacturing in the US, then buy American.

My view of the US and the global economy isn't as depressing and gloomy as what's been presented here It was obvious 20-25 years ago that a global society was the future and yes, that meant as the rest of the world caught up, the US would lose market share and wealth. I see it more as a re-proportioning of the pie. Japan was the harbinger of the impact of a global society on the US (remember all the griping of the Japanese in the 80s) - there was a country wealthier than ours!

I think that "living to work" versus "working to live" is a red herring. Only after WWII was the US wealthy enough that "work to live" was a possibility. Previously, most people led simple lives and retiring at 55 (with a life expectancy of 75 years) unheard of. C'mon when could a person NOT work for 20 years and still live comfortably? So, count me in the "Americans are spoiled" column because not only do you have an easy life but you expect an easier one.

"A re-positioning of the pie" - well, that seems all well and good if you are in a position to buy groceries, pay for utilities, medical care, and tax hikes that are imposed because companies are no longer employing Americans. When the companies "sell out" by leaving the US to hire cheaper workers, Americans have no jobs, no taxes are paid. The only winner is the CEO. If you want to reposition the pie, why not cut the CEO's pay and redistribute it to Americans!

I am not against helping develop other countries, but not at the destruction of our own country. A global society AND a global economy are different categories.

Since you don't see any doom or gloom, how about re-positioning your wealth by giving us some? Now how does that feel?

Yes, ladytexan we have been through a lot together even though we have neve met!

Since you don't see any doom or gloom, how about re-positioning your wealth by giving us some? Now how does that feel?

Hmmm...interesting that 1) you assume that I have wealth, 2) I should share with you and 3) I have no experience with deprivation. I see a person who feels a tad more entitlement.

I'm not wealthy. Yes, I have a job and I've been lucky to not have my job "outsourced" overseas. I've never earned a lot of money and I was taught by my Depression-era, foreign-born parents I'm lucky to be born an American because other countries have it much worse and I have to work hard for every little bit I get. No entitlement at all.

Over 25 years ago, I was looking into graduate programs so I talked to a department chair at the Penn Wharton School. At the end of our talk, he was honest with me and said that my grades were not good enough to gain entry into the graduate program. Then, he looked at me closely and asked where I was born. Puzzled, I answered "Here in Philadelphia" and he then said, "oh that changes things. We get very few American students. They don't apply - they all want MBAs, so the department is 80% foreign students." Apparently I could have been the recipient of a bizarre "affirmative action" program to encourage American students to apply and enter into a graduate program that did not guarantee a high-paying job or prestige.

My point? No one is taking anything away from anyone. People are earning their own way.
I'm not saying that the American economy is healthy - it's awful and like others, my family is paring way down. What I'm saying is that Americans are not entitled to be the country with the highest level of comfort and living at the expense of other countries. If we want things, we have to pay and we no longer can dictate the price we pay. Other countries now have the power to set the price. It doesn't feel good but it's reality.

I accept your explanation which IMO is much better than the post to which I first responded.

No, I really don't expect you to share anything with me. I was just questioning your re-position theory. I wanted you to look at it from the side of someone who is losing their job through no fault of their own.

Wealth? What is wealth. If I have $1.00 and you have $10.00 then you are wealthy compared to me.

We have always worked. I until recently when I quit to take care of my mom who had a stroke. My parents were depression era also. Both my DH and I have strong work ethics and don't look to others to provide for us. We have always worked for what we Needed and occasional wants.

Now, what do you mean no one is taking away from anyone? Where are we supposed to find work? Are we now supposed to flip burgers (nothing wrong with that job except pay and the fact that the availabity of such a job is not likely) and work another job somewhere (where?) in order - as we have always done- to pay our way? My DH has a teaching degree, but the market was flooded with teachers when he graduated, and he cleaned offices, including toilets, at night, until he was noticed by someone who worked in those offices and offered him a job. (Because if he was diligent enough to do a good job cleaning, they felt he would do a good job in the office) He continued to get education in production, purchasing and expediting materials.

We, too, have worked diligently to save and have paid off our house. We drive older cars, mine is 18 years old. We do not have a balance on credit cards. I am 59 and my husband is 61.

And, if nothing is being taken from us, why are so many people unemployed?

SO, again I ask you how are we to earn a living - with our jobs BEING TAKEN AWAY? I am very open to your suggestions, because he and I are definitely looking for work. I want to know what kind of jobs are available and what we have to do in order to obtain one.

People have been saying this very thing since the 1800s, how America is declining.

I remember in the 1970s, during those tough years, when it was "the Soviets are our new masters, they've proven that Capitalism doesn't work, we need to accept the fact that they are now are, and will be forever, the dominant power culturally, socially, industrially, etc."

You don't need a PhD in history to figure out how that turned out.

America is in a period of TRANSITION.

Yes, transition can be tough some times.

But you know, the one thing that the American people have proven time and time and time and time again is that we have the capacity, energy, and intelligence to reinvent ourselves.

Anyone who actually believes that "boo hoo, our age is over, we're on the downcline!" is selling themselves and their fellow Americans short.

IOW, most of you seem to be saying that a certain party's mantra of "trickle-down economics" does not work.

It might be thought-provoking to compare it to the men/women you have voted for over the last 20 years, and consider what has been happening. I'm not pointing fingers; certainly there is a lot of complicity and blame to be shared by many, if not all of us.

My feeling: all countries rise and fall over time. Portugal, one of the poorest European countries, was once a world power. France used to rule half the civilized world. England was a true world power, not a has-been nation living on its past.

Most immigrants I know work much harder than US citizens, coming from countries where there is little or no government safety net. My DH's entire extended family emigrated from Hong Kong 40 years ago - they came here for the opportunities, and have made good lives for themselves and their children/grandchildren.

We are ALL immigrants to this country. Even the "Native American Indians" came from China. There is a dance troupe here in San Francisco that specializes in rare and old Chinese dances. They have some that are a dead ringer for what we think of as traditional American Indian dances.

One of my former bosses was Irish. His father used to help run illegal liquor through the Coast Guard blockades with old man Kennedy (yes, the patriarch of them all, Joseph P. Sr.). He would tell me stories of growing up in the '40's and '50's in Boston, when most job ads would read, "No Irish Need Apply." As their family name was Kirwan (obviously a Norman took a wrong turn and ended up in Ireland, or got busted by Conqueror Bill and sent into exile), his dad would get a lot of jobs because nobody realized he was Irish.

Prejudice takes a lot of forms, and all of them are ugly. It doesn't matter whether it's a Japanese doing it to a Korean or Philippino, or a Caucasian doing it to an African American, or a heterosexual doing it to a gay/lesbian/transgender.

Happiness is not a matter of what you have. No amount of money can give you happiness, or turn you into a compassionate, tolerant person. And no amount of worrying about money will ever accomplish as much as a single random act of kindness.

Yes, Calirose, I think we have shared many things in this country.

Yes, things have been taken from us. Opportunities have been taken from us. I remember when Pres. Reagan was talking about our new economy and admonished people to get trained to be programmers. So many did - and what happened? Our government allowed corporations to import programmers who would work cheaper. This was done by lying about not being able to find workers.

My daughter decided to come home for a year and go to college to get her teachering degree. She worked full time as an ass't manager of a grocery store, sang in a church choir for pay, sang in a school choir in exchange for a small scholarship. She left home at 7 am and got home around 10:30 pm and worked on Saturdays and Sundays.

A friend sent her a clipping from a newspaper in the state where she had lived, and hoped to return. One of the most affluent school districts had decided to solve it's financial woes by forcing the retirement of all teachers eligible to retire, and 'encouraging' all those eligible for early retirement to retire and were replacing them with teachers from India.

I sat with a young woman one afternoon. She drove 60 miles - one way - to work in a chicken processing plant. She was almost in tears because she had heard they were bringing in a new load of illegals and had been told people would be laid off if they did. She said in a quivering voice, "I've just got to have this job."

Now the odd thing about this was, this company would only rehire someone once after being laid off from the company. After that they were no longer 'eligible for hire'. I'm not talking about being fired, just laid off.

This company had, legally, made a lot of American citizens 'ineligible' to work there - nothing to do with their ability. Now they can proclaim, "we can't find anyone eligible to work'!!!

Nothing taken from us?

I have never ever heard the idea that the Russians are our masters - ever. By the 70's most people realized Russia was in trouble and certainly were no where near our masters.

How did we get from a discussions about the problems facing this country to talk of 'we are all immigrants' and prejudice - even to mentioning racial and gender prejudice?

I have never known anyone who retired at 55. I know a lot of people who left one job at 55, and began a new career of of some kind.

Transition? Yes, we certainly are. The sticky part of that is exactly what kind of transitioning it is. Transition is change - it can be bad or good. War is a transition, an economic boom is a transition. The question now is what will be the result of this transition - and right now there are many people in this country who are concerned just how that transition will affect them - and rightly so.

My son in law works in the financial industry in the NE. He didn't get laid off when thousands of others from his company did. When I called to say how happy I was for him, he was almost in tears. People he knew, fathers with 3 children, women who were the sole support of their children, older people whose chances of finding another job are slim, were the ones on his mind at that time.

The waiter my husband spoke with in NYC who was 60ish and said he had been a waiter all his life and he was very concerned. He said he had seen lean times, but in the last 2 months, his pay has gone down by 1/3.

Transition? Yes - but to what?

Actually, I know quite a number of people who retired between the ages of 50 to 55. They had made very high six-figure incomes during the boom times, saved it, didn't upgrade to big McMansions, and have been happily retired for years.

I wasn't the one who originated the comments about "illegals" - but if you check this thread you will find many mentions of them. Legal or illegal, immigrants is what they (and we) are.

If you feel you are observing companies hiring illegals, are you reporting them? I would hope so.

As Pogo likes to say, "We have met the enemy, and he is us." I have faith that we can turn our situation around, but I do not have any jingoistic desire to proclaim "The US is Number One!" in all things. I consider myself a world citizen as well as a US one, and am glad to see more countries enjoy a better standard of living and greater educational opportunities. I wish we as a country put as much money into education as is needed - and I don't mean the terrible No Child Left Behind legislation.

BTW, the comment that Japan could "take us over without firing a shot" is an interesting idea but about as likely as Tokyo landing a colonization team on the moon. They have been in a serious deflationary period for almost 20 years and the central bank has been unable to re-ignite the economy. Without exports to bring in Yen and imports of oil and natural resources, Japan has a very small box to maneuver in. They have little capability of influencing Asian politics without the (military) resources of the US to back them up against China. With a rapidly aging population, they have probably entered a permanent and gradual decline.

This is, BTW, one of the small but distinct advantages the US has over Japan in doing Chinese joint-venture projects. There is still a lot of resentment amongst older Asians towards Japan because of what they did during WWII. People do business with them, but they don't especially like them. The recent furor over Japan's Prime Minister is a tiny headline most Americans haven't even noticed, but it's a huge and very touchy issue in Asia.

The retirees I knew continued to work or volunteer. Their retirement was just a change - not just quitting. Maybe I know different people.

I don't know anything about a statement about Japan taking us without firing a shot - ???

I also think we can turn this thing around. It will take our realizing that politicians/corporations are not working for what is best for ordinary people. We can continue to repeat the same old mantras or cliches and buying our heads in the sand, or we can take a realistic look at the situation and work to make it better.

Immigrants are people who come here legally. Illegal aliens, the designation used by Immigration, are not immigrants - not in the same category.

Few, if any, places are still inhabited by the original people. That would make us all immigrants - all over the world. It would also make the statement of 'we are all immigrants' as meaningful and informative as saying 'we are all people'. True as far as it goes, but really has nothing to do with our problems or this discussion.

I haven't heard anyone suggest they don't want the people of the rest of the world to have a better life. People can be concerned about what is happening to this country, and be concerned about the future of their children and grandchildren and the future of a free society - and still care about the rest of the world. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I am concerned that Monsanto has registered patents on indigenous plants around the world - effectively allowing them to 'own' plants that have been in existence and used by people for thousands of years.

I am concerned that years ago in this country, we realized that child labor was inhumane and we outlawed it. Globalization has increased that heinous practice in other parts of the world. Might not there have been a better way to raise their standard of living? I'm thinking there surely was.

I am concerned that global corporations have bought, through despotic rulers, the water supplies of other countries. This has forced poor people to now purchase the water from their own or community wells, or not even be allowed to use the water in rivers they have used for centuries.

I am concerned that our heavily subsidized grain is being dumped in poor countries and destroying the livelihood of small farmers.

I am concerned that Wal Mart is putting stores in poor countries and destroying the livelihood of small business owners.

There is a dark side to this globalization - and the people of this country are not the only ones being harmed by it.

As to citizenship. I am a citizen of this country - I am an inhabitant of the world. Citizenship implies and imparts certain rights and obligations. Since I, or anyone else, cannot live, work, take part in the governments of just any country in the world - we are not citizens of the world.

Report illegal aliens - I'm not sure what that has to do with the discusion. ICE knows where they are. That would seem to imply that the answer to this problem is simply that we 'report' the hiring of illegals. Again, we can continue to repeat things that have no bearing, or we can actually face up to the situation as it really is.

Ladytexan, I am the one who made the reference about being taken over without a shot. It was a "probably could" statement referring to our great debt owned by Japan and China, if one or both could and were to call those notes. (Since I am not privy to that information, it was strictly a statement about our economic situation)

Actually it was Khrushchev who declared that America would be taken over without the firing of a single shot.

I also agree with everything else you have written and you put it succinctly.

As to the statement by kframe "people since 1800's" - I think most of that was aimed at the morals of this country. And with that I completely agree. We (meaning many of the people, and not including myself) have made idols of rock stars, sports figures, and others, and invest our time in watching and reading about their incomes, lives, marriages, divorces, children in or out of wedlock, feuds, etc --- instead of attending to our own state of affairs.
As ladytexan stated, transition is change and some is good and some not.
I do not wish this to become a moral question instead of a discussion of economics.

calirose, I didn't catch the 'without a shot' concerning Japan - but you are right. Japan and China are our biggest lenders. I sometimes break out in a cold sweat thinking of what our politicians might be giving those countries in exchange for that debt!!!

I just read an article, op ed piece actually, on another site. The piece was saying that while China and Japan were also experiencing some difficulties - nothing on the scale of this country. One of the reasons posed was that politicians of those countries had made deals and restrictions in trade, and other areas, that protected their own country - something this country has not done.

Yes, I do remember reading the speech Krushchev made and he was very prophetic, I think.

This is a discussion of economics, but I'm glad you brought up the moral aspect as well. Those are part of the problem and they are intertwined with our economy. It is part of the reason for our economic problems. We are influenced far too much by the media. It is a corporate media, a propaganda machine - not a news source. The constant barrage of trying to convince people they need to constantly spend their money, and that they deserve to have it all - no matter what 'all' is - is a big part of the problem - and it has had an effect on our economy.

We have accepted mantras, feel good empty statements repeated by the media, politicians and others in public life to the point, we just accept and repeat them because they sound so good. Quite often this spin is telling us we deserve to have it all, we should always be happy, and absolutely nothing is wrong - except, goodness gracious, that we dare say something is wrong.

>>while China and Japan were also experiencing some difficulties - nothing on the scale of this country.Of course not. They are entirely and completely different animals than the American economy. And in fact they have considerable problems of their own, and they know it. An aging population and serious pollution issues threaten the future economic prosperity of both nations.

One of the jokes amongst political analysts is that "China's growth rate is whatever the government SAYS it is." IOW, they'll lie about it and no one can refute their statistics, because only the government keeps the statistics. Japan's government has very little of the power the US and Chinese governments do; they have a very different political system that is skewed towards rural over cities, and its unofficial mandate is to stay out of the way of the big corporations.

If we are in decline - and yes, I agree with that statement - then we CAN turn it around if we stop being fearful and start educating our children to live in the complex 21st century world.

As the illegals/immigrants is an OT, I include a link below for those who are interested in learning how racial and religious prejudice formed the basis for restricting admission to the US in 1921-4. Previous to this, immigration was open to everyone - I'm sure we can all recite the words inscribed on the Statue of Liberty.

It does not matter whether anyone thinks the country would be better off without illegal immigration, really. What matters is that this is the country we have, and the issue is how to best position ourselves to be part of a global community. America enjoys an enviable lifestyle that other nations want to copy. The question is, can we create and maintain that lifestyle while still managing our finances conservatively?

So in place of the fear and hand-wringing in this thread, I would like to posit a question instead. Let us take this as a challenge, not as a sharing of negativity:
- How can each of us as individuals, change our life and hopefully someone else's, for the better, either educationally, economically, or spiritually? IOW, what can each of us change, even if in small ways, that works not only for the individual, but also for the community we live in?

- How can we best ensure that our children will have the right skills and drive to compete in a global environment? I live in an urban area with many highly skilled tech workers and a very high percentage of people with graduate degrees. Yes, they are anxious about these times, but in general they are surviving nicely. There are others who are not, and these are people usually with less education and poor social safety nets; e.g., few or equally poor family members.

As for my posting saying I know quite a number of people who retired young; some do charity work, some started their own businesses, and some just enjoy their golf & biking lifestyle. But none of them have to do anything if they don't want to, which is my definition of retired, LOL. The old days of retiring to sit on your front porch and watch life go by, is not what Boomers and Millenia folks want.

Here is a link that might be useful: Immigration and US policy

"As to the statement by kframe "people since 1800's" - I think most of that was aimed at the morals of this country."

Actually, no, I wasn't talking about the moral fiber of America.

All through the 1800s the United States was subject to severe periods of recession and even depression. There was also the civil war in the middle of the century.

And, to be perfectly honest, I'm REALLY surprised that anyone was able to live through the 1970s without hearing that the United States was going to be permanent second banana to the Soviet Union.

Even elected politicians were wondering about it. The United States was still suffering from Vietnam, Watergate, and the worst financial times since the Depression. The steel industry had largely collapsed and done a good job of taking the coal industry with it. There were two oil embargos by Arab states against the US, unemployment was skyrocketing, and interest rates were completely out of sight.

It might have been Newsweek, but in 1981 there was a huge article about how Japan was the New America.

Ronald Reagan, in his Farewell Address, even noted this:

Our plans for the economy would cause inflation to soar and bring about economic collapse. I even remember one highly respected economist saying, back in 1982, that "the engines of economic growth have shut down here, and they're likely to stay that way for years to come."

I remember when that hit the newspapers. People weren't shocked, they had pretty much come to believe it, I guess.

kframe, I am sorry. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, I should have said "IMO" and based on my grandmother's stories about her life, it seemed that much of the decline in America was moral, but of course I was not eliminating other means, including the Civil War, the Great Depression, and other events thatyou have mentioned.

People have objected to losing the steel industry,and other industries, as well as wars. Coverage by media has often been limited or skewed as if to represent the "people" involved in protests as minimal, or even anti-American.
The internet has opened up a venue that allows open discussion without censoring.

Yes, we can fix this as long as we are honest about it. Nothing is ever fixed unless and until the problems are admitted and identified. I see these discussions as just that - not handwringing.

Our very own government puts out reports that are whatever they want us to believe. They 'seasonally adjust' and tweak the figures until they have whatever will make us respond as they desire.

Illegal aliens are very much on topic in our economic problems. It is a part of the problem and it's solution will decide many things in this country. Racism has nothing to do with it - although it is another thing often thrown out there to muddy the waters.

Our immigration laws changed significantly in the 60's - we are no longer operating under 1920's laws.

Yes, a degree and skills is very important - but it isn't a shield against the global economy. Out there in the world are millions of highly educated and skilled workers that can be brought here, or hired there, to do the work.
I don't think the criteria for hirees these days, and for the future, for the most part, is level of skill, but how little pay they will accept to do the job.

Lots of educated and skilled people lost their jobs in the NE and elsewhere because of the financial fiasco. Other peripheral jobs will be impacted as well. It is not realistic to assume that simply a degree or skill will protect you in this situation.

kframe, I absolutely never heard anything about being second banana to Russia - I really didn't. Japan, yes, - when their cars began coming in in numbers and we were importing steel, etc. Never, ever was it Russia. Truly, in the 70's the people I heard and talked with, really thought Russia was on the way down. Their military power was always something discussed but never their economic power. I believe you when you say you heard it - I just never did.

The 70's was when it first became apparent to us and others that you can't export so many jobs, import so many necessities, import workers and remain a viable economy.

I think our moral fiber does have something to do with our survival in this country. Believing that one should work and not take from others unless absolutely necessary, believe that one should be honest and honorable, have served people well. Not everyone has operated that way - but many have. There is just no way a country can survive with an 'anything goes', 'I deserve everything - and now' attitude. It is a recipe for falure.

Pres. Reagan was very much a globalist - he championed it and he championed NAFTA. I remember him talking glowingly about using taxpayer money to build a factory in China. He said we should export our dirty industries and be an exporter of information and that computer programming was a good field to prepare for - until corporations began importing foreign programmers.

Well, again, I'm just kind of surprised because, even though I was only in early teens at the end of the 1970s, I remember quite a bit of hand wrining over the role that everyone was expecting the Soviets to play in the new world economy.

Yes, some people were saying that the Soviet system was going bankrupt, but I also remember quite a few "I'm an expert economist, and I say they're not" telling us the exact opposite all through the 1970s.

The Reagan Administration, obviously, chose to believe those who thought that the Soviets were over-reaching economically and socially, and chose to confront them directly (the Reagan military build up) and indirectly (pushing military supplies to the Mujhajadien (sp?) in Afghanistan) as a mean of shattering their economy.

Equally as important, but underreported to this day, was the role that Pope John Paul II played in helping hasten the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Even as the strains of the their attempting to keep up during the Reagan years were continually reassessed, many, if not most, analysts expected the Soviet Union to totter along for many years until it slowly ground to a halt. Few people expected it to collapse as quickly and as completely as it did.

Finally, interesting quote from Baroness Thatcher's funeral eulogy for Ronald Reagan:

"Others prophesied the decline of the West; he inspired America and its allies with renewed faith in their mission of freedom.

"Others saw only limits to growth; he transformed a stagnant economy into an engine of opportunity."

I think that adequately but briefly sums up the feelings that many had regarding the supposed waining power of the West and the rising power of the East.

I am not doubting that many did predict the decline of the West - but truly I only heard of the rising power of the Japanese - as well as the economy of Taiwan.

Ronald Reagan did have a dislike of communism that went all the way back to his acting days and involvement in the actor's union. I remember people saying he wasn't up to dealing with the communist at the conference in Iceland (I think it was) and he said something like, "I knew I could handle them, I've fought them before ( in the unions) and have the scars to prove it."

I think he was determined to undermine Russia to bring down the communist country and yes, I think our help in Afghanistan, and our military buildup was just part of it.

Also, I have family in the oil industry, and there was a story going round that Reagan convinced the Saudis to drop the price of oil and flood the market so Russia could not get it's oil industry off the ground - thus adding to it's collapse. I never heard that anywhere else, however.

Again, I do/did know/think that Reagan was trying to bring about their downfall through economic means, but only to defeat communism, and stop it's spread. Never did I hear anything about our fearing they were superior in economic ways.

But I believe you when you say you did.

While there were things, looking back, that I don't agree with Ronald Reagan, I did like a lot of things he did and I liked the fact that he inspired people to be Americans again.

Again, there seems to be some confusion about service jobs. Not all are "un-needed." Healthcare and banking are huge service industries - do you think the better paying jobs are making cars or digging coal? Professional athletes, movie stars, wall street execs, and surgeons - all service. Management and consulting are also services - its not just theme parks and resaurants. I would say that very few people actually make anything themselves and sell it - most, even in manufacturing, are just taking a cut somewhere along the chain providing their 'service' of knowledge/expertise.

If you wanted to expand, every job is a 'service' to someone - even manufacturing.

What I really wanted to know was what, exactly-specifically, this country was doing and could do in the future to maintain a viable country. What specific jobs or industries would sustain us for the future.

We see our financial and banking industry in big trouble now, and the much vaunted 'more Americans own homes now than ever before' has become a joke, management and consulting jobs are going to be in jeopardy. So these don't seem to me like industries that can be counted on to sustain us, right now, they seem to be a liability.

Only the Wall Street execs seem to continue to be doing well - thanks to our politicians. They are not providing anything, not even 'service', for the obscene amounts they are getting.

Yes, a depression can and did happen when we had manufacturing in this country - but what money was being made was remaining in this country. So much of the money these days is being siphoned outside the economy and not circulating to keep it viable.

We are sending China so much of our money, it is breaking us. They, in turn, loan it back to us so we can throw it at Wall Street, mortgage companies, and foreign princes, and paying Americans whose jobs are sent overseas or lost.

That just sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

The fact is, there is a great big world out there filled with a lot of people capable of doing any job we have in this country.

Many of those jobs can be done with the workers remaining in their own country, and some can be done by our importing them to work here.

We even see that in the healthcare industry - many people go to Mexico from this country, especially for dental care. They also go for medical care and to purchase their prescriptions. I understand that Thailand is becoming a big destination for people of this country for surgery. They are already having X-ray's read and evaluated by doctors in foreign countries.

So, if the only criteria is who is the cheapest, then it seems we are totally on the loosing end. I see this as a race to the bottom. We have seen the poor quality and dangerous merchandise we get from China when we seek only the lowest price, will that be what we have to expect for healthcare, etc.

So again, what jobs, 'service' or otherwise will this country have left that will maintain a decent lifestyle, and keep us strong?

It is very dangerous to assume because a job isn't a 'better paying' job, it is unimportant. The government and corporations have denigrated jobs so they can fill them with foreign workers. Those 'lower paying jobs', and 'jobs no one wants to do' have become any job that can be filled with a cheaper foreign worker - legal or illegal.

First there is a great misconception about the jobs filled by illegals. true many do work in jobs no one else wants such as fruit picking and other low paying jobs. However many also work in good paying jobs. The roofers union in this area is screamiing to high heaven because their members are being dumped by companies because they can hire illegals for half what they pay union workers. The painters are facing the same problem. So not all are working the stoup and bend jobs. Next few realize what a tremedous drain the workers are on our economy, many pay no taxes as companies pay them in cash and keep their names off the books, next most send a large portion of what they earn home, this is one heck of a drain on economy. Next we have to fix the huge trade inbalance or go under. Anyone can say what they will but a service orieneted economy has to eventually fail, no new capital is generated and infused into the economy, I don,t care how much profit a service business makes no new money is infused into the economy, such as occurs when items are made and exported. Every service oriented economy in history has failed, the most notable being the Roman empire.

My $.02

What a bunch of arm chair economists here. Smart people who study the world economy all of their lives don't feel as confident about things as people seem to be here. Unfair of me to generalize but when people clamor so loudly that they KNOW what the problem is - it drives me crazy.

It is generally felt (by 95+%) economists that free trade and the movement of currency raises efficiency and global standards of living. There is no country/region in all of history that has long term declines because of free trade. People like to focus on the negatives and completely discount all the positives.

The best example is the automobile industry. Could you imagine what we would be driving if the Japanese and to a lesser extent the Germans did not trade with us? The American auto industry has only recently been able to hold a candle to foreign auto makers. Their main problem was from the lack of adequate competition in the US after WWII. It has taken them years to catch up. They are better because of the competition but not good enough to survive.

The US has been the undisputed military and economic leader of the world for many years (really in retrospect since WWII). One would expect that as markets evolve this will change. Most people expect that China and India will eventually have larger economies given their larger populations - makes sense. Who knows - China may soon have a military advantage. But where is the hopefulness that says that as China's markets continue to open, their political system becomes more free. Democracy has a relatively short history but it does make sense that democracies do not wage war on each other.

I for one see 2050 as a beautiful place. One where the world is generally richer and more free. Less war, less poverty, more freedom. Hopefully less dependent on fossil fuels. Why all the gloom and doom? It is called a business cycle for a reason and this despair comes out each time.

My last point - throughout all of this despair - people the world over are buying US treasuries. They are still considered the safest places to put your $$ or yen or Euro. Most world markets have fallen further than the US markets and real estate also has fallen more in other countries. The global population is betting with their pocketbooks and the odds are good that the US will survive and prosper.

I can't say things in a few words.

Some of us 'armchair economists' are out here living the problems, seeing the changes. I realize that for quite some time we have been told, 'you aren't seeing what you think you are seeing, you are seeing what we tell you'.

This country has been in the decline since they adopted globalism. That's not a 'long time' in the history of the world, but it's the 'entire time' in our globalism journey.

Oh, we have increasingly had access to cheaply made products and we can get our weekly fix at Wal Mart. We can sit and watch 99 channels of mostly mindlessness and propaganda. We have more and more credit cards with higher and higher limits. We have the opportunity to refinance our homes, often, taking out the equity to fuel this frenzy.

That hasn't really proven to be a sucess.

Many things can change in a time span such as the next 40/50 years. Entire forests can grow, radiation can become livable, people are born and die. We will have changes by 2050 - and alternative energy will have to be one of them. I'm thinking it will also be owned and controlled by corporations. Will we have a Utopia - I don't think so.

Will the standard of living in the world be increased? Possibly, it depends on the definition. We will all just be equal serfs, living in corporate housing, doing the jobs we are assigned?

It isn't raising the standard of living when corporations are allowed to rape and pillage poor countries - getting control of the resources and the poor peope getting no benefit.

It isn't raising the standard of living when our corporations destroy the livelihood of small farmers and small business owners. It is good for the corporations as those people, and perhaps their children, will have to then work for the corporations at any wage and in any conditions they decide. Of course, many will make their way to the US, illegally, to work and be cared for by the citizens of this country. That's not a good thing.

Iggy, you are so right. The illegals are doing most any job any other citizens would do. Remember all the flap when it was learned so many baggage handlers and screeners were illegals? They have found illegals working in sensitive military manufacturing. They are working in schools, for cities, in banks, doctor's offices, real estate - and in Texas it is commonly known they are the construction industry. They are also starting small businesses in this country.

The thing about the illegals, they are playing the system for all it's worth. They work, pay almost no payroll taxes, therefore little can be verified as to their income. They continue to take social services, and church charity, even when they begin making money.

Corporations and their politicians, LaRaza, and others who stand to gain are putting out a lot of misinformation. While declaring false figure for the number here, that they don't know where they are, who they are - in Texas, the tried to tell us they know just how much illegals spend on the Texas lottery.

Sorry, david carey, but a rational response is a lone voice crying out in the wilderness on this thread.

Everyone has a right to their opinions and to express them.
The idea that everything is great and if we just accept more and more pain and a lower and lower standard of living - in the end the 'experts' know best and we will all be OK, isn't rational, I don't think. Not if there is something else we can do.
We can't continue to do the things we are doing and expect a different outcome.

Those ideas are the same we have been hearing from the experts for over almost 2 decades. We heard how strong and safe our financial market was, our housing markets, etc. This was backed up by doctored unemployment and inflation figures.

Those of us who suggested this was going to come tumbling down were then told we simply weren't educated enough or smart enough to see that it was really a good thing.

I don't know how one would put a percentage on living standards, but I assume if Americans were working toward having a standard of living of, say, 40/50% of what we consider a good standard. If the goal is to lower our standard of living so corporations can make more money and exploit even more people - ourselves included - then absolutely - everything's great.

A standard of living isn't reflected in how much you can spend on junk, how large your TV is, how many movies, cd's, or games you own, though. That's the thing they don't want us to realize. How can the globalist continue their goal without our buying into this madness.

If some of us think there might be a way to maintain a good standard of living in this country, while being able to help the rest of the world, that's not irrational. In other words, I don't think this country has to sink into the ocean to raise the water level.

Irrational - no? A pipe dream - possbly, unless we change our thinking and admit there is a problem.

100% right Lady texan, how in the world are we gonna fix a problem if we don,t have the brains to recogonize that we have one? In one thread someone was touting the gain in auto quality made because of Asian and German competition. We did quite well for many years in soley American made cars. Granted they had some flaws. Not we got the so called high quality Asian and German autos. We also have a recession millions of jobs gone and economy in shambles. let me say it again if something is not done soon to stop the outgo of capital from the US economy it won,t matter what you own, German, Asian or a US made auto you won,t be able to purchase gas to drive it, because if the dollar continues to be devalued it will take a wheel barrow full to buy a quart of gas. There is nothing wrong with trade as long as it is fair. But we can not compete against a devalued currency system such as the one used by China. Also many of these companies moving overseas are sealing their own doom, their technology is stolen and a cheap copy of their product is produced by a Chinese competitor and the US market flooded with them. I happen to work in the hvac industry and last week I saw a prime example. A vacuum pump is a device used to remove all air and moisture from a referigerant system so freon can be introduced and and flow about unrestructed, this an over simplification but it will do. The cheapest US made vacuum pump costs about $300. Last week I saw one produced in China a near exact copy of a popular brand once produced here, by a company that moved plant to China. The copy sold for $69. I had a chance to examine it, works good enough and the quality is adequate. I will venture to say the company I am talking about will be gone in a year. Nobody is going to pay 3 to4 hundred for an item that can be bought elsewhere for less than 100 dollars. All i can say we better wake up an stop accepting the global free trade pie in the sky stuff or we will drop beyond being a third world country.

iggy,

Are these products the result of theft of technology? Are they patented? Or do they have patents in China. I guess what I'm asking are they simply copying American designed products and then marketing them here.

My son employees mechanics and deals with mechanics a lot. He says they call the present day tools 'Kina"(instead of China). It's 'Kina wish I had some good tools'.

The entertainment industry is all roused up about this same thing. They say by the time a movie is released to the theatres, you can buy the DVD on the streets of NY.
When we were in NY just last week, there were signs on the bus stops about this. I didn't see any vendors, so maybe they have run them underground, or made some headway.

I'm thinking the entertainment industry is big enough, rich enough, and powerful enough, they might be able to demand their products be manufactured here rather than overseas. That wouldn't stop all theft, but it would cut way back on it and if the actual theft happened here in the US, then it could be punished.

patent and copyright laws are very loosely enforced in China and in most cases not at all. Many American computer and software companies have learned this the hard way. Some companies have tried to sue companies stealing their technoly, making a product and dumping it in the US. Usually the ownership is so mudled and mixed up it,s difficult to know who to sue.US companies operating in China have to be 50% Chinese owned, this includes the technology, how do you sue one for using his own product? To put it bluntly many US companies are getting royally shafted by their greed. Lots complain about the Chinese made tools but people keep buying them, go into any harware store and look you will have a hard time finsing a US made tool.

I feared as much about copyright laws.

Yes, I think my son says there is still one American company that makes good tools.

You are right, though, that's all there is.