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vickevette

Checklist for Carpet Installation

vickevette
16 years ago

We're installing carpeting in a home we recently purchased, and will be moving into. New carpet will be replacing old carpet. Most of the home has oak hardwood in the common areas, the wall to wall carpet is in the bedrooms/hallways/closets and two stairways, and is/will be installed over wood (plywood?) subfloor. One of the stairways has wide stairs, which "flare" at the bottom, and the stair treads and risers have a slight curve to them. The stairs have a reveal of oak hardwood on the side edges with the carpeting in the middle. We're doing bullnose wrap (not "waterfall") on the stairs. Home is 18 years old, and I believe the existing carpet is original. Old pad is the shredded rebond, and is installed over the wood subfloor.

I've done some homework, and have chosen a nylon carpet, density about 3800, twist about 6, in the 6,6 type nylon by Karastan. (Style name is "Cellini" aka "Cambridge Shores"). Planning to use the "Healthy Choice" 10 lb. pad, which I believe is made by Shaw. Any opinions on this pad? I've heard mixed reviews.

I was told by the guy who cleans my carpet, that if I caulk between the sheetrock and the subfloor (behind the baseboards) while the old carpet is out, I can eliminate/minimize the black line that develops around carpet edges from air flow. My installer says to caulk, he needs to remove old tack strip, then caulk, then replace with new tack strip.

It's a big project, so a significant cost, and I'm looking for advice on what to look for/ask for in terms of install.

I've heard many install horror stories, and want to avoid problems, if possible. My carpet vendor is a local store that has been in business for many years, and is designated as a "certified installer" on Karastan's website, whatever that means. The installers are employed by the carpet store.

I've asked to see an installation plan, showing planned seam placement.

Any other tips to ask for in terms of install?

I heard to ask for machine stretching (didn't think they did it any other way).

Also heard to ask that seams be "double-glued" (what does this do)?

Some bidders for my job acted like they never heard of caulking the air gap between sheetrock and subfloor to eliminate the black line, others said they do it routinely, but some said that expanding polyurethane foam was the only product that would give an effective seal, whereas others said that would make a mess and get in the way of tucking the carpet under the baseboards. These folks thought a regular, flexible caulk was the right product for the job. Any opinions on this?

One person told me that they would bevel-cut the pile of the carpet on the stair risers, so that it angled back (getting shorter) to the point where it meets the wood part of the stair, to avoid a raggedy-looking edge, another installer said shaving the pile was an invitation to disaster. Any advice here?

One installer made a big deal about asking whether I wanted the back stairs (which reverse direction at a landing) to have the nap all facing the same direction, or if it should turn with the stairs. I've only ever seen the nap always facing the leading edge of the steps, and if the steps turn direction, so does the nap. Is there really any other way?

I'd also like to clean when they remove the old carpet. Not sure what to expect under there. I know the previous owners had pets (though there seem to be no stains or smells). Someone I know told me they had to pull out all the old staples from old padding on their project. Is staple removal typically included in a labor quote--or do they leave the old staples in?

Can carpet be installed with enough care to not damage baseboards? We just spent a fortune on a top-notch paint job including spray painting all wood trim, and our baseboards are pristine. Is it unreasonable to expect carpet installation not to damage the baseboards? (I've considered covering painted baseboards with painters masking tape to protect--any idea on wheather this would be effective?--other suggestions?

Is there anything I should know about seam placement? Should I ask for a drawing for pad seam placement also?

Am I opening a "can of worms" by having old tack strip removed and new installed? Any advice here?

If you are an expert--or have gone through this before as a customer, and have any advice to share on these or other install issues, I would very much appreciate it. Thanks!

Comments (4)

  • glennsfc
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Not an expert on carpet. However, the advice about caulking the gap between the baseboard and the oak floor is right on. I did that as a service for one of my customers before the carpet was installed. Makes alot of sense.

  • vickevette
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks glennsfc, for the response. Do you mind sharing what you used for caulking? I had one guy tell me that the only effective thing to use is expanding polyurethane foam (because it expands to fill all the void where air can get through), while another told me that would expand too much, and get in the way of tucking the carpet under the baseboards--so using regular flexible caulk is the ideal.

    My friend who is also getting new carpet asked her installer about caulking, and he told her that you had to remove the baseboards to do it effectively. That doesn't sound right to me. I know they are planning to remove the carpet tack strips and put new ones in to do my caulking, but not the baseboards.

    If you recall what you used, and also if you've heard if it was effective (I haven't been able to find anyone who has had this done, and hear if the carpet really does stay cleaner after some time passes) I'd like to know details, if you don't mind sharing.

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  • carusoswi
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I was told by the guy who cleans my carpet, that if I caulk between the sheetrock and the subfloor (behind the baseboards) while the old carpet is out, I can eliminate/minimize the black line that develops around carpet edges from air flow. My installer says to caulk, he needs to remove old tack strip, then caulk, then replace with new tack strip."

    What sort of heating system do you have? Did this black line affect the existing carpet in your present home? If so, what did your cleaning guy do to address the problem? I own a carpet business, and, mercifully, weve been specializing in commercial work to the exclusion of residential for some 12 years, now, but, I spent 15 years prior working with retail/residential clients. The black line about which you speak sounds more like a maintenance problem to me, and caulking sounds more like gingerbread, and should not represent a significant cost. If everyone protests to the contrary, why not determine your material of choice and perform the caulking yourself?

    "I've heard many install horror stories, and want to avoid problems, if possible. My carpet vendor is a local store that has been in business for many years, and is designated as a "certified installer" on Karastan's website, whatever that means. The installers are employed by the carpet store."

    How many years the store has been in business probably has little to do with their present circumstance. I would ask for a list of current references for successfully completed projects similar to yours and check them out.

    As for installers being "employees" of the store, there are major sound bites spun around the notion that "employee-installers" are inherently better than "subcontractor-installers." To me, itÂs a moot point. Ultimately, the entity with which you are doing business is the only source of satisfaction available to you. I fired all my "employee-installers" because, owing partly to their hourly-pay status, they were unmotivated and entitled to get paid for correction of their mistakes that should not have occurred in their original work. I accomplish large scale installations on major commercial projects using only subcontractors, sometimes teams of three or for independent installation companies, and, while I do feel blessed by the current group we have working for us, feel that my current arrangement results in crews that with more incentive to finish the work promptly (they donÂt get paid until it is successfully completed) and with good workmanship (mistakes are corrected on their time at their expense).

    In my previous business, I used only union employees that were, by definition, my employees (I paid their medical, FICA, withholding, union benefits, issued a W2 instead of a 1099, etc.). There, too, we were blessed with excellent crews who were well trained and dedicated to excellent work. We paid to correct mistakes, but mistake-prone installers didnÂt get hired for the next project.

    The dealer to whom you refer probably has either subcontractors or non-union employee status installers. If I were the dealer, I would not make much of that distinction with a customer. Either can perform stellar or disastrous work . . . and the key is the business practice/philosophy of the dealer. If the dealer enjoys a good reputation in your area, then the pay status of his installers matters little.

    As for the installers being "Karastan certified" I view this with much skepticism. Installing carpet is definitely an acquired skill, but Karastan carpet is not materially more complicated than that produced by any other division of Mohawk Industries (they own the Karastan brand) or other US carpet producer. This sounds like gingerbread to me.

    "I've asked to see an installation plan, showing planned seam placement."

    . . . something we, as a commercial specialist, are required to submit to the architect on each job. The architect knows (or should know) how to evaluate such a plan . . . you may or may not. Typically, I would look to avoid seams that end in doorways or high traffic areas (you would look to avoid a seam that terminated in the middle of a step, for instance). In a small job, do not be surprised by a series of cross seams along a wall. If your material is 12-foot wide, and is being installed in a 15-foot wide room, it is typical to make up that 3-foot wide section by cutting down 12-foot wide material into 3-foot wide strips and seaming them end-to-end in order to save yardage. You arenÂt being cheated, the installer (or salesman) is saving you money by reducing the amount of material required to complete your installation. The alternative would be to purchase a 12-foot wide piece of material in order to complete a 3-foot wide space. Review the seam diagram, raise questions, but, in the end, my advice would be to defer to your retailer  if reputable, he should know best.

    "I heard to ask for machine stretching (didn't think they did it any other way)."
    If you care, ask for more detail on this. We have power stretchers (a system of tubes that allow stretch over a large expanse) and mini-stretchers (for pattern matching, etc.), but I am unfamiliar with the term "machine stretcher", and am, frankly, skeptical.

    Power stretching is as good as it gets in our industry. Via a system of extension tubes, we can use the "far" wall of your home as leverage in order to stretch carpet over the tackless in order to reduce the possibility that wrinkles might appear after the carpet is installed. Wrinkles that do appear following installation are not fatal, they just require a restretch. You should inquire of your dealer to determine the extent of his/her policy regarding restretching. If they cover you for a year or more, then the process, itself, is not that important. If the installation looks good upon completion and continues to look good for a year, you are unlikely to have any inherent installation flaws.

    The degree to which power stretching is effective is directly related to the size of the space. In a small space, there is less area and less material tolerance, so if it looks good when completed, it is far less likely to be affected by climate, material "fatigue", etc.

    Power stretching becomes much more important in large areas. Think about it . . . if you can get (for discussionÂs sake) a half inch of stretch in 10-feet of material, then, 100-feet of material could allow for five feet of stretch which, if not eliminated with a power stretcher, could manifest itself as wrinkles at some point following the installation. None of this is fatal to the installation, but collateral costs can be considerable. In a hotel ballroom, you might have to deal with the expense of moving all the furniture that typically inhabits a space that is 100-feet long.

    In a home, the distances/scales are much smaller, and the furniture involved is on a smaller scale, also. Power stretching is always best, but IÂve seen many an installation last many years after having been only "kicked" in by the installer using a knee kicker that only stretches the last three or four feet of material over the tackless. Think about it. If your room is 12 x 12, using a knee-kicker that is effective for three or four feet in all four directions equates to stretching all but a center square that is 4 x 4 . . . not significant at all when you consider that normal fabrics cannot stretch that much over a 4 x 4 space.

    My advice would be to rely upon the reputation of your dealer of choice on this issue.

    "Also heard to ask that seams be "double-glued" (what does this do)?"

    This statement strikes me as ever so much gobbly-gook. If you are installing over a cushion, then, the only carpet gluing necessary involves connecting the edges of subsequent breadths of carpet (in your case, probably 12-foot wide breadths). The only methods of which I know are to sew (extremely expensive and time consuming . . . only used on woven carpets today) or use seam tape, a strip of fabric with pre-applied adhesive that is laid under the seam. A seaming iron is then used to emulsify the pre-applied adhesive, and the two breadths of carpet are pressed into this adhesive to secure the seam.

    Some types of carpet require that adhesive be applied to the edges of the material being seamed to eliminate edge ravel. This could be true of your installation if your carpet is of a looped construction.

    The only other use of the term "double-glue" applies to installations where the pad is glued to the floor, then, the carpet is glued to the pad. This is a specialized application and not typically used in residential installations.

    "One person told me that they would bevel-cut the pile of the carpet on the stair risers, so that it angled back (getting shorter) to the point where it meets the wood part of the stair, to avoid a raggedy-looking edge, another installer said shaving the pile was an invitation to disaster. Any advice here?"

    It sounds as though you will be installing what we refer to as a carpet runner on your stairs. The center section (where you walk) will be carpeted with wood showing on the outer edges  very good looking when well done  and it sounds like you are getting a variety of advice concerning the treatment of the carpet edges for the runner. Basically, you have two options  1) you could bind the edges of the carpet  a fabric tape is sewed to the edges to finish them. 2) the installer can "turn and tuck" the edges. He/she will turn under the edge of the carpet so that no binding is necessary.

    To get an idea of what beveling looks like, look at some of those cut-pile fancy design area rugs (oriental look or rugs with designs and such sewn in) to see what cut-pile carpet looks like after beveling. Then, think about how this technique applies to your installation. Most likely you are purchasing a tufted carpet  the finish fibers are tufted into a jute or synthetic jute backing. No matter how carefully or precisely you bevel the finish fibers, the edge of the backing will still be showing on both sides of your runner. You need to hide the edge of that backing either by turning it under or applying a sewn-on binding. Ok, you could use a vinyl edging strip, but that would truly be ugly. No other options come to mind.

    "One installer made a big deal about asking whether I wanted the back stairs (which reverse direction at a landing) to have the nap all facing the same direction, or if it should turn with the stairs. I've only ever seen the nap always facing the leading edge of the steps, and if the steps turn direction, so does the nap. Is there really any other way?"

    I donÂt want to be condescending in any way, but most consumers would not be aware of the nap direction on steps  whether it runs with or against the direction of traffic flow. If the characteristics of your carpet cause the "nap" to be highly directional, then instruct your installer/retailer to layout your installation to maintain pile direction on the steps. If, when you look at a section of your intended carpet, you cannot readily discern which way it is running, instruct your installer/retailer to optimize the layout to use as little material as possible.

    "I'd also like to clean when they remove the old carpet. Not sure what to expect under there. I know the previous owners had pets (though there seem to be no stains or smells). Someone I know told me they had to pull out all the old staples from old padding on their project. Is staple removal typically included in a labor quote--or do they leave the old staples in?"

    I admire your inquisitive nature  more customers should strive to so inform themselves. But there comes a point of diminishing return. A quote to install carpet should include everything the installer needs to furnish in the way of labor and materials to professionally complete your job. Unless he/she specifically excludes subfloor preparation, then, you should assume and assert your right to a complete job, staples or no staples. Experienced installers should know what to expect when replacing carpet installed via tackless method. You are not liable for the cost to remove staples or to hammer them down, whichever means your installer chooses to deal with the issue. Also, there is no significant difference to you in terms of the value of the installation whether the installer chooses to hammer in or remove the staples.

    "Can carpet be installed with enough care to not damage baseboards? We just spent a fortune on a top-notch paint job including spray painting all wood trim, and our baseboards are pristine. Is it unreasonable to expect carpet installation not to damage the baseboards? (I've considered covering painted baseboards with painters masking tape to protect--any idea on wheather this would be effective?--other suggestions?"

    This depends upon the characteristics of the carpet, and the variables tend to compete. Carpets with very stiff backings tend to have better dimensional stability, but the stiffer backing are more difficult to cut and tuck. Softer backings tend to offer lower dimensional stability, but are easier to cut and tuck.

    In the commercial world, I am constantly confronted with the choice to install prior to or following the finishing of the baseboards. If I install prior, then, my material is subject to paint stains, etc as other trades work over my completed carpet. If I install after, I am subject to backcharges for damage to finished baseboards.

    There is no easy answer for you as a consumer. My advice would have been to hold off finishing of your woodwork until after the carpet installation. Of course, you would then be subject to additional charges from your woodwork finisher due to the care he would have to exercise when working over your new carpet.

    Installers can and should exercise care, but there is no magic answer here. If you want the carpet to fit tight, it has to be laid against the baseboard then trimmed to fit. Backings are very abrasive, so some damage is inevitable.

    "Is there anything I should know about seam placement? Should I ask for a drawing for pad seam placement also?"

    Know the width of the material you are purchasing  typically 12 or 15 foot breadths for residential applications. We endeavor to place seams as conspicuously as possible, so develop a mental snapshot of your space(s) in increments of 12-foot (or 15-foot as applicable). Where would you place the seams? The dealer/installer performs a similar mental exercise. If a space is 12Â3", you can expect to see a 3" piece of material seamed, perhaps in short pieces, to fill the gap.

    Seams in the center of doorways are generally to be avoided, but the circumstance of your particular layout might make that impractical or horrendously expensive (owing to additional material involved).

    A good installer should be able to share with you not only a seam diagram, but also a material cutting plan, showing how each piece of material you purchase is either put to use in the installation or consigned to scrap. Ask for both plans, but, in the end, find a reputable dealer and rely upon him/her. They do this everyday and, contrary to horror stories to the contrary, are generally out to give you a good job at a competitive price. Someone who has done as much homework as you probably has several quotations. Ask for quantities and compare. YouÂll probably find them to be very similar. In most layouts, the choices are clear. In some, there is a distinct competition between material required and number of seams. Review this with your dealer if you have questions.

    "Am I opening a "can of worms" by having old tack strip removed and new installed? Any advice here?"

    Unless the existing tack strip has been subject to moisture, there is little reason to change it. Its only function is to provide an attachment point for carpet. If you are replacing carpet, it has performed this function one, perhaps two times previously. It is capable of doing its job 100Âs of times unless compromised by moisture.

    Some installers will "backup" tackless by installing a second strip in situations where the strength of the existing strip seems compromised. This is a decision I would allow the dealer/installer to make (even as one who is in the business). Good dealers/installers are truly interested in your satisfaction, and you should seek satisfaction that is meaningfully beneficial to you. There is nothing of real value to be gained by changing out the tackless if it is in good condition.

    "If you are an expert--or have gone through this before as a customer, and have any advice to share on these or other install issues, I would very much appreciate it. Thanks!"

    I think IÂm as expert as any you will encounter on this forum, but I donÂt know it all, so happily would welcome any additional comments pro or con to mine.

    You mentioned that you are purchasing Karastan carpet. You might be interested (or surprised) to know that the Karastan brand was purchased by Mohawk industries some years ago. Today, most of the brands we grew to respect have been absorbed by other companies. In addition to the Karastan brand, Mohawk also owns its own brand, Mohawk and Bigelow, Durkan, Lees, and many more. Most of the brand names you see in a retail store will fall under three or four corporate umbrellas . . . Mohawk, Shaw, Beaulieu, (the other escapes me for the moment).

    Loss of independence is the sad news. On the other hand, in terms of product development and features, it is almost impossible to purchase a bad piece of carpet today. Every source offers very advanced products that, under normal use, will grow out of style long before you notice any wear.

    Congratulations for being such an informed consumer, and good luck with your purchase/installation.

    Caruso

  • carusoswi
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "We endeavor to place seams as conspicuously as possible, so develop a mental snapshot of your space(s) in increments of 12-foot (or 15-foot as applicable)."

    Well, embarrassed am I. We actually endeavor to place seams as inconspicuously as possible. Someone as on top of things probably has already figured out that I didn't type what I meant. Sorry for any inconvenience.

    Caruso