So tonight is open house at school where you see each class and what they have been up to. I cannot go due to immunity and was not sure if dh would be home on time. DD was bugging me about going and hanging out with the other kids. She had to play in a short recital the band was doing for the incoming 6th grade parents, I told her I would drop her off and come get her but she would not be hanging out. She had attitude when I dropped her off but I stuck to my guns.

So I pick her up, she apoligized for being rude then immediately started asking to stay again, even soliciting a friend to sway me. Friend was smart and backed away as I said I did not appreciate the badgering. Attitude kicked in, she is only kid not going, unfair, blah, blah, blah. So we get home and there is dh. I filled him in as she ran to him to tell him how unfair I was being. So I reminded him that open house is for when kids show the parent the classes. So he told her he would go and she could too..... only if she took him around. She did not like it but gave in. He happily took her. This is first time he has done this with just her, he will drive her crazy because all the naughty kids won't come near him. It should be fun.

On a good note. But kinda weird too. My dd was writing in her journal in front of us. She left it on desk in playroom all day. She tossed it on her floor last night. I took a peak. She talks about the out of town neighbor being her love. She wants to wait for him. She also mentions wanting to hook up with a local boy but that she does not want to lose her virginity and have it be just a wam bam thank you mam thing. She wants it to mean something. So if they "go out" she wants to make him wait a few months before she would consider. That way she is sure he is really her boyfriend.

*AHEM* pardon me for seeming rude, but she's just 13 and thinking about losing her virginity to a boy in a few MONTHS? Show the journal to DH. She left it out in the open, it's fair game. Wow. I'm kind of speechless.

I think she knows you've read it, and is writing stuff for your benefit. I can't imagine what you're going through--your plate is overflowing, but I think she is crying out for help, but doesn't want to be direct about it.

And I realize that styles vary, but I don't think a 13 yr. old need fake nails. She's a kid. Her body might be that of a woman, but her brain is that of a kid.

That girl is begging to be reined in, Shannon. If Dad can keep the naughty kids away, why in the heck are you protecting her from him! That is exactly what Dads are supposed to do!

She just turned 13, right? She is planning on losing her virginity in a few months?? DAAAADDDD!

"That girl is begging to be reined in, Shannon. "
OMG, YES!
I have stayed away from this as did not see how I could tactfully and intelligently add any better advice than others were giving you here. Everyone has been very kind. It seems to me your parenting style is that of a big sister, vs. a mother. She was 12 or younger when you gave your control away. Clothing: you hold the checkbook, you have the car. If you had realized her as a child, spoken with her re. inappropriate clothing and it's message early on, there would be no issue with her wearing or wanting to wear tacky, sexy inappropriate clothing...anywhere. She speaks to you disrespectfully, giving you "attitude". How old was she when you first allowed this behavior of talking back, 2,6,10? If discipline isn't your strong suit, it is a strength you must now learn, going back to square one. New parenting skills can be learned. Family counseling is a must. You will make new rules and stand by them with never a waver. Putting her father in charge is essential. He needs to 'scare her straight'. I hope he is up to it. As far as your health and his work allow, you both need to stick to her like a second skin until she gets the message: you care about her, she is a CHILD, and you will protect her.
All the above is from my heart, written not well, but sincerely. My heart goes out to you. I do so hope that something on this thread will help you and your family in this trying time.

""That girl is begging to be reined in, Shannon."

Or she is begging to be listened to.

Counseling. (Separate counseling.)

I said both... Raising great kids is not for fools. Shannon, keep listening. Don't be fooled by youngsters who really need strong guidance. GUIDE them, for Pete's sake!

I agree with ideefixe - I don't think a thirteen year old should be wearing fake nails.

Did I read this right? Your 13 year old DD's friend brought a used condom to practise?

Your DD needs a better peer group and fast!!!

Does anyone else think that shannon01 is yanking the chains of some very nice and caring people?

sandyponder

"Not that I am saying the girl did not do it,"

Considering that earlier she wrote the condoms were missing from *her* bedside drawer, it's hard to understand what she's trying to say about them.

FWIW, it's called a "trophy". Or "evidence" depending on who was wearing it and where it went before it was put back in the wrapper.

Either way, this is beyond fixing with a shopping trip and a round of Mother/Daughter chats. It's time to make some calls and get some help.

No Sandy, what a wild assumption ; shannon is a very candid person, holding back nothing, she shares with an understanding that she's not necessarily right and is open to advice.

I've experienced the yanking of the chains here before, and even now it's still happening; but I truly believe shannon01 is not one of them.

It's odd to start talking about an OP in the 3rd person, after witnessing same OP chimes in regularly. If you're right, then I must be very gullible, lol....

Mitch, I hope you're right, because the same thought crossed my mind when I read Shannon's last post.

I have no doubt the OP is a real woman facing real problems who loves her children very much. I don't "know" her, never "met" her, and probably never will, but I don't question the truth of what she's posted about her DD, nor her bewildered reaction to her behavior.

That's why she's posting here; while she was most likely looking for some kind of confirmation that things aren't as bad as they seem, she has received some eye opening outside opinions and good advice. That's the real beauty of an anonymous internet board; it facilitates the free exchange of ideas.

In the end, what matters isn't whether you or I or anyone else "believes" her; it's whether or not she takes steps to get the help she and her DD (and by extension , her whole family) need. I would not foolishly make guesses about someone's life, but I do know she has written enough that I would strongly recommend professional counseling.

I know I have certainly come around to the notion that counseling is imperative. I have no doubt you are going through tough times dealing with your cancer AND a pre-awakened young teen. It can be hard to see the forest because of all the trees. A counselor may help.

I have also thought a few times that your relationship with your DD appears to be more of a sister relationship instead of a mom relationship. That said, I realize this format is limited to whatever you have the time and energy to put into print, so what appears may not be what really is.

I wish the best for you and your DD. I really wish you clarity.

I don't doubt that you are a good parent and are working towards a good and open trusting relationship with your daughter, not one of a sister. That's wonderful for a mother and daughter.

If it were me, I would remove my kids from that school district. I'd also completely remove them from that foul environment by moving away from it. Those kids are a bad influence and will continue to be so. Radically change her environment so she can't get around it. Find a community and private school that focuses on academic achievement, community, spirituality, and the good values you want to foster in your children. She needs new and good friends and a healthy environment of personal growth to grow up in. Get her away from those kids. Completely. I don't think there's a middle ground.

I'd also have my dh march right over to those boys and lay down the law, in an extremely firm way, that if they don't stay from his daughter and stop talking to her like that he'll put an end to it for good.

My heart goes out to you during such difficult times.

I'm so sorry you are going through this shannon.

My 1st thought is you have to protect your DD. She's only 13. I would make it known that I do not tolerate any boy disrespecting her. The boy who offer 10$ for the BJ would get b-slapped by me and a threat to have the 10$ bill up his a-- if he ever talked to my DD like that. I would also make it known that any boys who wag his d-ck in front of her should consider that d-ck as good as gone. I'll bring out the gun (borrowed if needed be) and casually mention that If I happen to come home to any uninvited intruders, that boy would either be dead or crippled. :-D

On your DD's side, I would transfer her to another school, keep her in some after school activities to get away from trouble (dancing class, volunteering at the shelter or hospitals). I would also be very vigilant a/b what kind of friends she hang out with. Tell her that you love her and have high hope for her.

I think your DD needs confirmation that you & your DH care enough for her to stand up for her (against these boys). There would be drama for sure, but deep down she knows you are doing what you can to protect her. Not because you want her to be miserable.

Good luck.

I agree with the posters that suggest counceling. You have tried to raise your daughter in a positive manner, but something has gone awry. I don't agree with vilifying the boys here. Your DD is equally responsible for the situation. The boys aren't doing anything that she is not participating in fully. Under no circumstances should you hit, threaten or yell at someone else's child. No way. Violence begets violence and all of that. Not the message you are trying to send. "Standing up" for a child that is participating in the bad behavior is not what is required at all.

I strongly suggest that you, your DH and your DD go for counceling. I don't know why you feel you need to let your DH "trust your jugdment". IMO he needs to be fully involved at this point. Not sure if this is a control issue you have or something that he doesn't want to be involved in (but should be made to be. I don't understand your thoughts on that issue, but you obviously think you are doing the right thing. I just think that something in your approach to this is not working. You need outside help to figure all that out. I wish you and your family the best on this journey.

Well, I didn't mean hurting or threatening the boys with violence (and doubt others did either). They need to be addressed and in a very strong manner. I think the father of a girl they are treating like trash is a formidable option. I think it would also be good for her to see or know that her father is standing up for, protecting her, on something that he feels is important and that he won't tolerate someone treating his daughter that way. Or anyone else's for that matter. The adults need to be in control here, not the kids. If Shannon feels it's wrong to approach the boys directly, then meet with the boys and their parents to discuss firmly and with consequence what's going on and that it will stop. They need those in positions of authority to lay down the law of what is acceptable behavior and what is not. Regardless of dd's ability to understand what's going on and act responsibly and independently of her peers and the flow of the fast lane, the boys are out of control. They also need to be taught how to treat women. If they can handle treating others so poorly, then they can handle a good talking to themselves and a straightening up with some marching orders. There was not so much pussy-futtin around in the old days with these youngsters.

I would not allow those kids to talk to or treat my daughter that way, or control the situation. She's a naive young girl, not a responsible one.

I do sympathize with your situation...undergoing cancer treatment and an out of control 13 yr old daughter.

However, I'm confused about a couple of things.

You're an adult woman and the mother of a 13 yr old girl who is running wild and wears suggestive clothing. You say she's developed and looks older than her age.

For this graduation next weekend, she needed an outfit and you got one for her. Okay, and now please tell me how a sun dress and shell that you can wear would also be appropriate for a 13 yr. old to wear? I'm not seeing it.

And fake nails and a manicure for a girl that is not following family rules? One who is thinking and writing about losing her virginity? One who hangs around with drug dealers? And one who doesn't even do enough around the house to warrant an allowance? I don't think so.

You need to get tough here. She's the kid; you're the mother. Set the rules and enforce them without any rewards until she proves she deserves them.

My dear, if you think this situation is bad now, just wait and see what you've got in store for you.

I have been following this thread very closely and struggled over the last couple of days on whether to post, mainly Shannon because of your physical issues. In the end, if it were my son or daughter and I knew about the issues involved, I would want someone to be honest with me. Warning to all, this is going to be harsh but in the end is being said out of concern and caring.

She had boys in our house over a year ago. This means that your daughter would have been about 12 when this occurred. Your daughter is sexually active. There i've said it. This has been going on for over a year and she may OR may not have had sexual intercourse but missing condoms and friends carrying used condoms clearly indicate that there is either full blown sex going on and/or something very close to it. IMHO, you and your DH are in serious denial about this situation and how extreme it is. This may be cruel but maybe the cold water that you and your DH need. I read and re-read your responses and snipped some of the more pertinent comments that you made below. When you put them all together, to me it means one thing and one thing only, get you, your DH and your daughter to counseling and a doctor NOW or you are more than likely to have a daughter who is going to be pregnant, contracting STD'S and possibly AIDS!! Don't ask her whether she wants to go,just GO. I'm sorry but a girl who at a minimum was 12 and bringing boys home needs help. She is a timebomb waiting to happen and I can no longer sit by and not tell it like it is. Again if it were my son, I would want someone to be totally honest with me. We had an issue(yes it dealt with sex) with him at 15 and both me and my DH talked explicitly with him about it. We also went to counseling(he met with the counsel alone) and we took him to Planned Parenthood (we didn't ask, we just took him). It was clear he was uncomfortable to an extent talking with us and in the end, we wanted him to be able to talk with SOMEBODY to get his feelings out and to be honest without repecussion. We also wanted an opportunity for him to express his feelings about sex and to know ALL that could happen to him both physically and emotionally. No we were not advocating that he continue to be sexually active but we weren't naive enough to think that it would not continue. So we wanted him to be armed with all the knowledge he needed both from us and from professionals. Finally, I didn't want any grandbabies and I certainly didn't want his physical health threatened. My DH and I were also not foolish enough to think that he would share all and we remembered what it was like to have raging hormones at that age and not truly understanding them and feeling uncomfortable about those feelings. Essentially, we as parents took control of the situation and did everything that we could together to fix it. My DS is fine now and we got through it and can even laugh about some of the stuff sometimes. My long winded point is that we didn't ASK if he wanted to go to counseling, we were explicit about what we knew and how we felt about it and we were honest about how it made US feel. We also were explicit about the fact that there was a problem in our family and we were going to do everything in our power to fix it as a family because that's what families do. Was it uncomfortable talking to my son about sex, heck yeah but it was necessary.

She had boys in the house over a year ago when she was about 12. Someone raised the possiblity that she was sexually abused. Your response was, definitely impossible. Are you sure? Boys in the house at 12 and possibly younger ( you said over a year ago) seriously raises a flag and this type of behavior can be a sign of past abuse. Again, I'm not saying this to hurt you but to open your eyes to all possibilities because it is ATYPICAL for an 11-12ish year old girl to be engaged in the activities that your daughter has. None of us as parents EVER want to deal with this type of gut wrenching reality but that is what we DO as parents. We have to have the courage to look at everything, even ugly possibilities.

Tell her you read the diary because you are so way past the point of caring about her privacy. She lost that privilege over a year ago. Period, point blank. When the situation with my son happened, he lost everything, no privacy, no phone, computer, door on his room, to and from school, no friends, frankly no nothing. We told him that he would get the basics from us that were required by law, a roof over his head, food to eat, minimal clothes as necessary. Anything ELSE was a PRIVILEGE that he had to earn back. You know what, he did. We were explicit that he needed to earn our respect and we needed to earn his. It was a two way street. It was tough, painful and in the end so worth it.

Maybe if you see all of these things below together and at one time, it will be a catalyst to really do something because your daughter is a train wreck waiting to happen and all the gentle pussyfooting around, including some of the comments here is NOT what she or your family needs right now.

We don't trust her for a minute.

I cannot have a 13 yr old pregnant dd nor one who gets a SDI. These kids are literally doing everything but actual sex and think it is ok.

She wrote that she had boy in house on a day my dh and I ran an errand and got home just after she did.

Yes, I may need his help at this point but we are dealing with really sensitive stuff here that his knowing may help but may also hurt. It is very delicate It is delicate but it is your child's life and that means no subject or situation is off limits.

I do need to discuss the condom being brought to practice a bit more. I think that I might be right about the two girls competing with each other too intensly.

She also mentions wanting to hook up with a local boy but that she does not want to lose her virginity and have it be just a wam bam thank you mam thing. She wants it to mean something. So if they "go out" she wants to make him wait a few months before she would consider. That way she is sure he is really her boyfriend. What has been missed here in this statement is that my gut feeling tells me that she has already lost her virginity.

God bless you Shannon and I will keep you and your family in my prayers.

I totally respect your post. No hurt feelings at all.

I can see how the facts look and am not blind. It may sound like it as you read my posts. I don't want to lessen the boys being over but there are always more facts that are not always posted. We investigated the issue completely, both dh and I did. There was a second time a boy was over a few months later and that too was looked into. According to her diary she had someone over in April. She writes she did not have sex. She writes how she wants to but that the opportunities did not happen. The boy she talks about now lives in San Diego with his dad and might be coming here for a few weeks for summer, then maybe permanent again to do highschool. I am still looking into the issues with him and his interaction with dd's softball teammate. DH and I will discuss with his mom and step dad prior to him coming home.

My sister was in a similar situation as deborahnj. So I can totally understand her views and concerns.

I had posted something really good last night but it did not post. It was an update on what is now going on. Good stuff. DH and I are on a united front and are moving forward.

Mona-
As for the sundress. I am only 5"1" and she is just over that. We can wear same tops but not bottoms. Even 6x dresses are low cut. She does not fit the 7-14 dept and teens are just too hoochie. So we have a hard time with clothing. Bras, they don't sell her size in kids and teens are mostly push up. Again, sexualizing our teens. So we compromise and get solid colored regular. The dress is just above then knee. It is deep V but has this part between the V so it actually shows little cleavage. But still, she is going to wear a cami to cover even more and still look cute. She has sandals that are flat and girly but still stylish. I could wear it because it is pretty plain. The shell is just a basic sweater type shell. Maybe I am using the wrong word to describe. It ia like a button up sweater but the buttons are larger and it hits above the waistband so you would have to wear somethng under it if you wanted to wear it buttoned up. She will wear it as it will give a more dressed up look for dinner.

As for the nails, not sure if I mentioned this. She plays ball and her nails tend to stay really short. I let her do very short press on nails every now and then but not for daily wear. Mostly for events or holidays. I will not let her get acrylic nails like many girls have. I think that may be a prom thing when she is 16 or more and I am sticking to that. One time she and I had nice nails so we did a mom and dd french manicure at nail school. It was fun. Again, very short nails. We bought a kit and did them at home a few times.

So my sis and I were discussing my dd's behavior and since my sis is a psyche tech and into psyche issues, along with her years of teen fostercare we found something. ODD is Oppositional Defiant Disorder. Basically it can occur in strong willed children and progress into a problem. It can also occur in kids with other mental issues. DD seems to fit so much of the criteria. So I shared this will DH. He agrees but does not feel she it totally ODD. He does worry about Bipolar because of how she handles some of her outbursts and fact that his mother had major mental issues and was adopted so we are not sure of full history.

Anyhoo. Kids typically have defiant issues as toddlers and preteens but work through it. Strong willed kids can further develop issues, like my dd. She has always done well with rigid structure in her life. When given too much room she tends to go all over the place and needs to be reeled in. But now she is taking it to the next level. The basic home treatment for this is what many have suggested and what dh and I have already done but maybe not consistently enough. When she gets a punishment, like radio taken away, it is not long enough. And we may give her too many chances instead of only one. She can have freedom but it needs to be limited. And considering she has problems even with limited freedom, she basically needs hardly any freedom.

So we talked to dd and told her that everything has price or rule. In life nothing is free. If you want to wear stylish clothes you must do so appropriately. If not you lose the item for a week. If you want to walk dog, you must carry phone, check in and be where we tell you to be. Or you will not walk the dog. If you want to have a radio you keep volume down or lose it for next day. And so on.

Then we discussed allowance which is to buy things that are appropriate and agreed upon by all of us. She has a savings with no access. She will take money to bank and cannot access it without us. She will be asked to do something. It is to be done when asked. It is to be done well the first time ( I have written down how-tos for tasks). We are going to make a chart for the week. Things will be achievable and she will be held accountable. Grades are monitored and will be part of this. At end of week we will review the chart and determine any allowance. She has to get a reward if she complies. No compliance, no reward.

She will not be going to the end of school water park day. She has chosen to not turn in homework, even if she completes the work she is "forgetting" or "losing" it. She can sit at school with the other kids not going and ponder on how her decisions resulted in her not going. This year it is based on behavior and not grades, so there will be a lot more kids not going. Although, it might not be good for her to be in a room with these kids. Might have to talk to the school about just having her stay home and do chores or be at school doing something else that does not involve contact with these kids. Hmmm, another thing to figure out.

I am having the school counselor meet with her this week to let her know she will not be invited to the honor class next year. She needs to see the result of her efforts and that normally she would be the perfect candidate but not with her recent choices.

We will have to deal with issue of her being unsupervised after school when I return to work in Nov. Dh and I have options. I can take late lunch and take her and ds to my mom's house which is now close to my office. That would only be on Mon and Wed as dd teaches at daycare on Tues and Thurs and dh is home on Fri. I could also make arrangements for her to go to certain friends houses. We can and should install camera on house. It will also allow us to make sure doggy is ok as camera would show sideyard and front of house. We could install on back patio also. Cameras are really cheap and I can view from my office at any time. Now some technology is cool.

Last night we had major issues with dd and our new policy worked. She wore a tank without layering it. She was warned. I told her she cannot go to daycare class like that and needed to put on shirt. A tank with straps showing (even if they were not bra straps but cami straps) was not appropirate, especially around toddlers. She had a hissy fit. She eventually changed and went to daycare all bummed out. She simply put T over tank. So I let daycare know she is to not remove Tank. They told her and told her they knew about the argument. They also told her to not bring her bummer attitude to class. She had a very good teaching session. I updated daycare on situations at home and school as she is a key player with our dd.

When I picked up dd she was quiet. She said she was sorry for her attitude. I asked her why she was sorry. Instead of her usual "Because" she actually said "it was wrong for her to behave like that". Progress.

We then got home and I gave her some simple things to do, she actually did a few things on her own. I praised her with each accomplishment and allowed her to make pizza. Dad had told her when she made my bday cake to clean up when cooking. Without being told she did an excellent job of cleaning up. Dh took her to her band recital and had a good time.

This morning she was warned to turn down her radio. She turned it back up so I told her she will not have it for tomorrow. No argument from her. I told her that if she wants something she has to follow the rules. And I reminded her that because she wore her jeans with holes (I don't know how to write holy jeans, or is there another spelling?) and tanks the wrong way she losses them for a week. All were taken away and noted to be returned next Tuesday. Again, no argument.

This is only the beginning. I have to make a chart of things to do today. The issue with the boys is another thing but is being handled with restrictions. I cannot change anything she has already done. I can work with her on future things. She will not be doing sleepovers this summer, which will limit her access to technology. Friends can come over here but phones will be surrendered or they cannot stay.

I think we are on the right track and just have to stay on it. Dh has always been involved but I really think not as much as he could. He is going to be now. We have to be consistent and that sets good example for our ds too.

Yay, Shannon! Parenting isn't for the faint of heart. Hang in there. You will get your rewards later.

I do know for a fact that some kids are far more challenging than others, by personality. Just be dogged.

Shannon, I hope you listen to Deborah and get radical with this. Research highly recommended outside assistance. Get focused on the big things.

No phone, no internet, no opportunities. Door off her room. School work and, when the time comes, chaparoned activities for growth only. Period.

Maybe, too, some of the kids are giving her a hard time for being an A student. Not cool and makes it harder for them.
Completely removing her from, changing her environment, would make it easier to change the bad behaviors, interests, temptations, and habits that are developing from exposure and to hopefully interest her in new or other things. Focus on educating her before setting her free in this crazy world.

"I cannot change anything she has already done. I can work with her on future things"

I like that sentence, you are on the right track, keep up the good work.

Today continues. She did not want to go to ds open house but he went to all hers when she was in grade school. She was a little defiant but we ignored her and actually told her she would have to stand outside the door if she continues. Within minutes of being in class she had a good time. We allowed her to check in with a teacher to see about helping with summer school if she behaved. Unfortunately budget cuts are not allowing the program but teacher did say it would have been nice to have her.

She tried to roll her appropriate shorts up one time and i reminded her the penalty of not wearing things the right way. She immediately complied. I told her she looked nice.

She started to pester me about getting the nails back. I told her I would love to give them to her but it will be some time. I caught her getting dusting items out but I told her that it was too late, she can do it tomorrow. After she does the dusting tomorrow I will remind her that one task does not earn something like that.

We decided that the water park trip will only be allowed IF she completes all assignments and turns them in. Trip is the 2nd so she has a lot of days to earn it. It took some discussion with dh to decide that there has to be a reward if she totally complies. She has to see something for the effort. We went over current work and discussed how it must go from binder to the teachers in basket. Why she would do the work and not turn it is still baffles us. We will give her reminders and check online progress daily. And we will hold firm on this.

She mentioned the counselor talking to her but I did not get to go over that with her. She sounded irritated that she gathered I instigated the meeting. Oh well, it needed to happen so she could at least see where she stands with the honor club.

She says she and her friends have vowed to not have a boyfriend right now. I told her that was a good idea. Oh, some boy gave her one of his tshirts (like a practive shirt from some team he was on) and I found it in the laundry. So after I met her in front of house after school and saw him, I had him come over. I very politely did the "hey, I think this is yours" and handed it to him. Said "see ya" and went back to house. I did not make a big deal about it with dd. Just gave the kid his shirt back.

I am leaving the counseling option open. Might call peds and see what they would recommend just in case.

My sis and I talked about summer activities. I think a schedule like our daycare does would be good. With so many parks we could plan a weekly picinic and let the kids plan the menu and such. We have tennis rackets and remote cars. Also thought of some museums or even drives to take the dog with us. There are some cool towns up in the Sierras. We have a cheap theatre too. And squeeze in a few chores in between. I could have them write in a journal of their adventures.

I know we are on the right track. Consistency is key and will take some effort. I have until November to get used to this and know it is achievable for all.

For dd, she needs to regain her pride in self and get her drive back. When focused she is unstoppable and has not time for the garbage that has her messed up right now.

Again, I really appreciate all the advice. I truly have listened and will take it all to heart.

Shannon, I think you hit the nail right on the head when you said, "Consistency is key and will take some effort."

Effort is what is lacking in alot of parenting these days. It's easier to just let things go vs. making a fuss or starting an argument. I know I've been guilty many times of this with my own kids.

I'd stay diligent with your supervision of her activities and who's she hanging out with. I'd also consider talking to her friend's parents or at least their mothers to make sure they're aware of what potentially could be going on. Having several other parents with they eyes on the girls wouldn't hurt.

And lastly, I would address with her the idea that she has of having sex. Even if she doesn't have it right now, if she's thinking about it seriously at 13, by 14 or 15 it will have happened. You need to find a teenage mother's group or a group of teens who are sorry they've had sex so early and do an intervention.

Just because she doesn't have a boyfriend doesn't mean she won't have sex if the opportunity presents itself and in the next year or so she'll have the opportunity somehow or someway and you need her to make the choice of NO.

As you said, consistency is the key. So is doing what you say. Every time. I'd just like to point out that you took the class trip away. You took it away. Then, you said, ok, if you hand in your work you can go. Not that you should change what you've already done (you shouldn't), but the bottom line is when you take something away, it needs to stay away. Otherwise she will never take you seriously. My point here is that in the future, before you give a consequence or punishment you need to make sure you are ready to stick to your guns. Stop and think, no take backs allowed. On restriction for a week, means on restriction for 7 days; not 5 days, not 6 days and 2 hours, it means 7 whole complete days. Back peddling, allowing her to talk you into reconsidering issues based on her batting her eyelashes at you is really, really not ok. Again, I think counceling for your family is warrented here.

I know you are trying your best, but I think you are not prepared for the manipulation your DD is capable of throwing your way. I wish you and your DH the best.

"Just because she doesn't have a boyfriend doesn't mean she won't have sex if the opportunity presents itself and in the next year or so she'll have the opportunity somehow or someway and you need her to make the choice of NO."

All very, very true... But I think our kids tend to tune us out when we preach the ole' Just Say No line. It's a known. A stereotype. A line all parents use and all teachers use and all religious figures use, and the underlying message is so simplistic that it doesn't take much thought to process. So easy for kids to do the ole' yeah, yeah, yeah tune out.

Now "When to say 'Yes' and how to be prepared and responsible about it" are topics that don't get as much attention as they deserve. And they're very discussion-worthy topics -- the kinds that inspire hours of thinking and good long interactive discussions. And they're even appropriate after sexual activity has already begun when most of the 'just say no' arguments have lost their merit. How many 20-somethings still worry about the Should I or shouldn't I? and Is it too soon?" issues?

It's certainly not too difficult to include "13 is too young" in a "When to say 'Yes' and how to be responsible about it" discussion. And the emotional, interpersonal, relationship and social factors that have been driving your daughter's actions are very much a part of these discussions.

I was afraid I would be caught. I should have clarified in my post that we had not yet told dd she was not going. It was just something I thought we decided but I had not said anything to her. Glad I had not told her without double checking with dh because then we would have been backpaddling and that would not have been good.

Since the date is close, dh and I made our final decidion and decided to tell her yesterday that she will not go if all schoolwork is not done, every stitch. And turned in on time. Period. So we did not backtrack on a decision. Sorry I did not clarify that. I will admit we have not been as consistent as we should be. And with my chemo brain I am going to write down in my datebook when she gets stuff back, etc. so that we can be more acurate.

To really be honest, because there is not a lot to ground her from, I think our main problem has been giving her too many chances to do things the right way. And it is not from her begging for another try really, it is more us giving her another chance to do it right. We have wanted her to do well instead of making her do well. All that is now over. She is being held accountable for all her actions, even how she answers her brother when he asks her for something.

Caroleoh, she does not hang out with anyone so that is easy to monitor. She does not go to houses except the two with parents we are able to talk to and they follow our rules about phones and internet when she is there. Mostly her friends come here. And that will continue.

And I totally agree with you on the boy/sex thing. Having no boyfriend does not mean much. They have this thing of "friends with benefits". They think it is ok to mess around with each other and not be going out. And yes, we discussed that phrase completely. Not having a boyfriend only removes a little bit of the drama and arguing the kids do. It does not remove the activities they still do.

Why she would do the work and not turn it is still baffles us.

My oldest son did this all the time. I always told him that it was like going to work, but not getting your paycheck.

Shannon, I just thought I'd read and not contribute AGAIN but when I read what you said about not being totally consistent, I just felt your heart. Mom to mom, I understand.

I have three kids. Two made me proud but one of them brought me to my knees. He taught me the true meaning of consistency. Literally. I think your DD is going to do the same thing for you. It's not an easy ride but the things you are learning will make you wise. Our child is now 26. He loves and respects us more than I imagined possible. He is doing great now. I never thought I'd see the day. We went through so much with that kid.

Hang in there. You can do this. It's totally worth it. Choose your battles carefully and then carry out your standards, no matter what! There can be no ifs-ands-or-buts about your words.

((Hugs))

"I am leaving the counseling option open. Might call peds and see what they would recommend just in case. "

Good idea, do that. I can already tell you what a Doctor is going to say about a 13 year old who is suspected of having been sexually active for past last year:

Bring her in for an exam. She needs to be checked for symptoms of STDs, and probably started on birth control. He or she is also going to tell you to get her into counseling simply because of your child's age and immaturity.

What seems to be getting glossed over here in all the discussions about rules and getting your hopes up because "today was a good day", is that it doesn't matter how old the "boys" are, or how she was dressed, or what kind of attitude she has, or what rules she initially broke inviting them over; a 12 year old child engaging in sexual activity isn't fooling around, they are being molested.

With all due respect, while you may be able to teach her to tone it down as a result of your renewed parenting diligance, (at least for a couple of years), this is out of your league. Cracking down on her over her grades, friends, clothes, and attitude will not change the fact that she has been has been sexually abused.

It is no shame to need help. The only shame is in blindly refusing to get it. I can't make it any plainer than that.

"12 year old child engaging in sexual activity isn't fooling around, they are being molested."

I probably shouldn't go here but, I don't get that. The definition of molest is "To subject to unwanted or improper sexual activity"

Two kids ages of 15 and 12 or 18 and 16, whatever - I don't agree with it, it is improper, but if they're both willing. I guess I don't believe that's the best term to use.

sheesharee--In many states, and I think in California, it is illegal for two minors to engage in sex, whether or not it is supposedly consensual. The wholly justified rationale is that they are not mature enough to make an educated decision on such a life-altering act. And in the case of the 18-year-old you suggested, it doesn't matter if the 16-year-old consents or not if that person is under the age of consent. It's still legally molestation or rape.

I agree with those who continue to suggest counseling for Shannon's family. I'm also concerned for Shannon's son. Early intervention and communication on the issue of sex would benefit him greatly.

"Two kids ages of 15 and 12 or 18 and 16,"
A 15 year old teenager (or 15 & 1/2) is old enough to get a part time job, take a driver's ed class, go to a PG movie without a guardian.

A 16 year old teenager, is old enough to drive by themselves in quite a few states, or buy a gun.

At 18 you're old enough to buy cigarettes, vote, donate blood, enter into a binding contract for good or services. (and the Federal Govt. DEMANDS an 18 year old young man register for the draft)

There is a reason we don't let a 12 year old vote, or drive, or make them register for the draft, or sign a contract regardless of whether they are well developed physically and might even have begun menstruating; they are still a child emotionally and mentally.

No matter how old you are, it is improper, immoral and illegal in all 50 states to have sexual contact (which is not just defined as intercourse) with a 12 year old child.

No matter how old you are, it is improper, immoral and illegal in all 50 states to have sexual contact (which is not just defined as intercourse) with a 12 year old child.

But what if both parties are 12 or 13?

terriks--As I posted earlier, it is illegal for minors to engage in sexual contact in many states. They are often referred to juvenile court proceedings.

X-post from "Boobie Love" thread:

shannon - I have been following your thread with great interest as the mom of a 19 soon to be 20 yr. old young woman. I have to say DD has never given DH & me any trouble whatsoever, so all that you are posting about your DD is foreign from a parent's standpoint, but I have experience with dealing with DD's friend choices made over the years.
Does your DD have a best girlfriend or a group of girlfriends that she spends time with? You mention a "best bud", but I am surmising from your posts that this best bud is a boy? I have to wonder if your DD has no girlfriends at this point, why is that? Has she ever had female friends with whom she spends a majority of her social time with? Also, if she has had girlfriends, have they separated themselves from your DD, or more importantly, have their parents separated them?

I had a situation when my DD was entering high school and meeting new friends from different schools as we have a regional school district which accommodates 3 townships. DD met a girl a year older than she, through her best friend. The girl lived across the street from DD's best friend since they were in elementary school. I absolutely hands down prevented my DD from hanging out with this girl as she was a very developed, boy crazy girl whose parents did nothing to stop this kid from her behavior with the boys. She was never held to a curfew, when she was home she was allowed to have boys in the home, down in the rec room, no adult supervision. It was probably one of my DD's worst summers socially, but there was no way that I wanted my DD associated in any way with this girl. The words of my own DM came out of my mouth without any hesitation "you will be judged by the company you keep". I probably heard that a zillion times growing up, and swore I would never be like my own DM. How your mind changes when it is your own child. I felt at the time that it was my job as my DD's mother, to protect her as best as I could from running in the fast lane. I am so glad I did. My DD now has a casual relationship with the girl as she cannot be avoided living across the street from DD's best friend. Sadly, I feel that the girl's DM played a huge part in not stepping up to the plate. She wanted so badly to be her DD's friend, that she lost sight of the fact that her DD needed a MOTHER, not a friend at that very impressionable age.

This past weekend I learned that the girl is now pregnant with a baby from a one night stand. IMHO, her life is essentially over. She will more than likely never return to college, she will be living in her parents' home, raising a baby with her DM's help. The girl's DM still hasn't gotten it. Her daughter will give birth to a child with no father in the picture. The DM is happy to be a grandmother. This girl was a year ahead of my DD. She did enroll in our local community college, but did not do well. The DM constantly made excuses as to why things didn't bode well for her daughter at the college, in other words, it was always someone else's fault when her daughter got into trouble. Well, she failed out of her first semester and aspired to obtain a job at a local daycare where she worked until that didn't work out for whatever reason, of course, none of it being her fault.

Also, what is stunning to me is that you have not made any mention of taking your DD to a gyn. There are adolescent gynecologists available. You posted that your DH is a physician? Have you not told him what you know of your DD's previous behavior, current plans with regard to sex? I am having a very hard time wrapping my head around the fact that your DH has not insisted that your daughter see a gynecologist. If your DD had diabetes or seizure disorder would you take her to the doctor? As an objective party here, I am just floored that you are not taking her to a gynecologist. If you haven't told your DH about your DD's sexual comments and evidence of opportunity for having sex, I think you should do so. Perhaps he would from a medical standpoint surely realize that a gynecologic examination of your DD is imperative. You posted about possibly talking to the pediatrician, I think you are way past going to the pediatrician. I would call the pediatrician for a referral to an adolescent gynecologist poste haste. This is your DD's health here, not just about birth control. I do not see it as putting your "seal of approval" of her behavior by taking her to a gynecologist, rather I see it as a necessary obligation as your DD's parent knowing what you do about the activities she is engaging in.

I truly am not trying to offend you, but I cannot continue to read daily updates of talks and privileges, which BTW are great, but there is a much bigger picture here that I do not think you are seeing or are choosing not to see or deal with it. An appointment with a good adolescent gynecologist would be worth it's weight in gold at this point and going forward with DD.

I don't think your DD is complying, I think she is playing you and you are buying it all, hook, line and sinker.

I hope you take action on this as there are no do-overs with regard to many forms of STD's or heaven forbid, the AIDS virus.

My DH is not a physician and we have talked at length about your situation from a parents' standpoint and he, like me, cannot understand why you have not taken your child to be examined.

I really cannot read these comments much longer as I think you are putting your head in the sand by not having your child examined by a professional in this field of expertise.

I wish you the best.

I agree it's not right and all the other things said above but personally, I still don't agree it truly fits the words molestion or rape (even though the law defines it as such)if it's consensual. Oh well, got side tracked as the definition of that word isn't what this thread's about. Sorry Shannon.

That still doesn't sound right so I'm going to try again. The laws are good and they're there for a reason but the example given above and what we're specifically talking about I'm not sure that word fits the bill.

Ok I'm done now. Hopefully someone can make sense of what I'm trying to say.

I think I know what you're trying to convey, sheesharee, and it's pretty much a disagreement on semantics. But, a quick check of my Webster's dictionary also supplies a definition of "molest" as "making improper sexual advances." Legally and morally, sexual advances between two children is improper whether it's done willingly or not. In my opinion, they're molesting each other because they lack the ability to make a mature decision to consent to it. They may both feel pressured by peers to do it, or may not understand the consequences, or are doing it to rebel. This lack of a conscious and informed decision to engage in sex results in molestation.

I won't prolong this anymore, either. :-) I just feel it's really important to understand that minors lack the ability to fully consent to sexual acts.

Shannon, when is Dr. Phil on in your area? Today's show is about teens and sex. He has a 14-year-old girl on who's already had sex with 14 different boys. I missed the first half. You can read about some of it online, but to see the show other than on TV you have to buy the video.

I think a 12-13 yr old girl's notion of sex is kissing a boyfriend who looks just like Ashton Kutcher with her some of her clothes off in a pretty pink cloud and then he takes his clothes off and then it's magic--the reality is rather different.

I think it's possible for 2 13 yr. old to have sex and have it not be exploitative, but the odds are that if the boy is older--it's exploitative. Molesting might not be quite the right word, but it's a form of abuse--even if she said yes, please.

Heterosexual transfer of AIDS isn't a problem in the US, but she could be at risk for other STDs. I'd take her to the gyno, get the vaccine, and probably BC, and then--really ask her what kind of life she wants.

One with a baby or an abortion before she graduates?

Mona and Deborah nailed it.

You still haven't told your husband about her behavior with boys, have you? I don't know what the "sensitivity" is about not telling him, but your daughter's behavior trumps that.

I cannot stress enough that he MUST know now. I don't care if he screams at the top of his lungs, hits his fist through a wall or throws something, he'll calm down and think rationally once he gets over the shock. lol

If she were my daughter, she'd be grounded for the summer.

I too had raging hormones at 12, and they were totally out of control. Thankfully I didn't have sex but I sure did like to kiss boys!

All it took was for my dad finding me and a boy together at 12 years old kissing him. It scared the pee out of me! lol. Oh, he was mad alright but I changed right then and there.

Shannon, you're trying too hard to make your daughter happy right now.

Nix all suggestive clothing. It's time she dressed and behave like a young LADY. Tell her she will be greatly respected behaving like a lady instead of an "easy" girl.

I think it would be fine if GIRLfriends came over to visit, chaperoned, and if she goes to a GIRLfriends house chaperoned with parents you approve of.

I wouldn't allow her to walk anywhere. Or go shopping alone either.

Someone needs to have the "Come to Jesus" talk with her ASAP or it will be way too late.

Ideefixe why would you say this?

"Heterosexual transfer of AIDS isn't a problem in the US."

I'm afraid that believing that could cause a new resurgence of Aids in our country.

I think it could be a problem. There are men living on the "down low" that are having unprotected sex with their wives or girlfriends and exposing them to the HIV Virus and Aids.

IMO, having multiple partners of any gender/sex increases the odds of infection. If sexually active individuals become relaxed about disease preventing measures we could see the numbers of infected persons rise to what they were several years ago.

Shaking my head, wringing my hands, I can't read this one any further.

Best of luck to you and your family shannon. May whatever God or higher being you worship watch over and protect your DD.

The spread of AIDs in the heterosexual community in the developed world is largely a myth. If you're not in a high-risk group (ie people who use inter venous drugs, people who have been in prison, people who have unprotected sex with both men and women), the risk isn't great.
The CDC's numbers aren't current.

I'm not suggesting that anyone having sex that's not in a monogamous situation shouldn't use protection, but I don't believe that we're facing an "epidemic". Avert, the organization I've linked, has good information.

While the transmission rate may not be as high among heterosexuals as it is male-to- male, it definitely exists.

Ideefixe, I know what you're saying.

My point is that one partner may believe she/he is in a monogamous relationship when in reality the partner is having unprotected sex with other persons. At this point, it would be difficult to expain to the non-cheating partner why condoms are now necessary when they weren't in the past.

Even if the AIDs case numbers are low in the heterosexual community, the infected person isn't going to feel better knowing she/he is among the low % of the population impacted by this disease.

Aside from Aids, a common disease spreading through the young, sexually active population is the HPV virus. These warts can occur on the genital organs and because oral sex is not uncommon, these warts are growing in throats as well.

Something to think about.