That's so funny about the condoms! I used to put condoms in my teen boys Easter baskets and Christmas stockings. My husband and I were in shock to learn our son was sexually active at eighteen and most likely before, both sons are very shy and as cool as we think we are as parents we had no idea that the youngest sons relationship with girlfriend had gotten to that point. Glad he had condoms! I think a lot of kids don't fully understand the "consequences of their actions" point. One year my older son decided to start screwing off in school. I gave warnings plus took away privileges and nothing happened. So, I enrolled him in tutoring classes three times a week. I told him that this would cost the whole family our summer vacation money (it did) plus I had to drag the younger son along and it screwed up his evenings. Son was much more responsible with his grades after that and learned how his actions could indirectly affect others. My husband insisted that they have part time jobs in high school, I didn't agree but it turned out well. They had to hand write letters to their grandparents after receiving gifts. It's not easy these days...the one thing that silenced them when they thought about sassing back about rules is when I said...I just want you to be better than me. That always shut them up lol.

I have an odd observation and I don't want you all to get the wrong idea about my views on alcohol and young adults. My sons were not allowed to drink around us at all until it was a legal 21. And they know I do not drink and drive! However, I have noticed that my husband's nieces and nephews in England seem so much more socially mature compared to young adult American kids of the same age. Heck, I think my American generation was more mature than young adults of today. In England young people can go to the pub at eighteen. In England at 16 you can go out and drink beer, wine or cider as long as you have it with a meal. It's also a little more socially acceptable for young adults to drink earlier at gathering where family is present, like it used to be in America. It seems that this earlier conversing with adults in social settings adds to the maturity level in my observation. Of course it is a combination of the social aspects of village pubs and upbringing but there is no doubt that the English young adults seem so very much more mature than Americans.

Well, I spent my teen years in London and there was nothing mature about 16 year olds puking their brains out after too many drinks. The most important difference is that most drinkers in Europe can get home without driving.

I also spent a lot of time the last few years with lots of British expats and many drank way too much, regularly ... again nothing mature or pretty about 30/40/50 year olds drinking too much and making fools of themselves.

My son is 22 years old and I think he is a fine young man. Responsible, polite, thoughtful, law-abiding, successful. My 19 year old daughter says the woman who marries him will be the luckiest woman in the world.

I will say that part of our success is just his personality. He just has always been a great kid and done what he needed to do. I know plenty of people who are just as good at parenting as us, some better, and they've had some difficulties with their sons that we didn't. I really like his friends and find them to be very nice young men as well, responsible and thoughtful young men who treat women well.

The things we did right - we had high expectations. Not impossibly high, but high. We expected my son to be reasonably busy without a lot of free time; he was free to choose sports, hobbies, or hold a part time job, but he was expected to stay reasonably busy (choice was to do something constructive or do extra chores). He chose sports and a part time job. My son was well able to keep his grades up; I realize some kids have trouble managing a job and their schoolwork. He had regular chores he was responsible for doing.

My best advice is for parents to model the behavior they want to see in their kids. My husband is a wonderful man, considerate, kind, optimistic, hard-working, responsible family-oriented. My son is very like him.

My second best advice is to let teenagers live the consequences of their actions as much as you reasonably can.

Regarding men of 1945 versus boys of today: we had a family trauma when my son had just turned 16 years old. My son had to grow up in some respects. He had very little supervision for a part of that year, his junior year of high school. He had his driver's license and a car, and I left him money. He took care of his life just fine. He was up on time every day and at school, with his homework done and prepared for class. He interned after school and then did a sport every day after that. His teachers told me he handled everything extremely well, that he was an outstanding young man. My son had to step up and help out at home in ways we would never have expected normally. He did it with a grace, style and maturity I never would have dreamed a 16-year-old boy could have.

My point is not that my son is great (although I clearly think he is), but that many of these ordinary young men of today have the seeds of greatness in them. Many of them would rise to the occasion, I believe, if it was truly needed. I just heard of a young soldier who nearly lost his life and lost his legs. We have young men and women risking their lives for their country now.

As far as arrested development goes, I was happy when my son could just go off to college and be a regular young man without the responsibility and stress he had his last 2 years of high school. I am so proud of him for being there when we needed him, but I am so glad he can just be "regular". I imagine your FIL's mother felt the same way when he got home, glad the life or death responsibility was off his 22 year old shoulders.

It is scary being a parent. We do our best and hope it turns out okay. Sounds like you are doing a great job!

We idealize the men of what Tom Brokaw called The Greatest Generation, but not all the men who went off to war were mature or developed maturity. Certainly they suffered, and their suffering upon returning home was done silently - the term post traumatic stress disorder didn't exist at that time. But living in harder times doesn't necessarily make you mature.

It seems to me much harder for a child to navigate through the teen and young adult years now as compared to my time in the 1960s-70s. Consequences of bad judgment seem so much higher now what with more cars on the road and greater speed, sexually transmitted diseases that kill or last a lifetime, or the internet forever documenting childish behaviors.

Oh boy, this ia a hot topic in my house lately. I'll try to keep it brief but I could go on and on. My DH is and was one of those ultra responsible types. Had a job every summer from the age of 13, got straight A's, never gave his parents any crap (though he did his share of drinking/drugs in high school and college), put himself through college with no financial assistance from his parents, and so on. Now has a great job and provides very well for us. Totally burned out now at 50, but that's another topic for another day.

We have two teenage boys (and a DD who is 11). Actually older DS just turned 20. The two boys (and yes, the 20 yo is still a boy) could not be more different. Older one has some special needs. Way too much to go into fully but basically he has ADD and extreme executive function issues. We found out the extent of the EF problem too late, after he had already dropped out of college and was not really willing to accept help that we, his parents, were willing to pay for (we tried, he had several sessions with an "expert", but then refused to go any more). Anyway, point being, some of what looks like lack of responsibility/maturity is not his fault. However, it still drives us crazy. This kid will walk right by the empty trash barrels in front of the house on his way home from school. Younger DS will pick them right up and bring them in the garage. Doesn't even have to be asked. But the older one? "Oh, sorry, it wasn't on my radar." (This is actually what he said to me the other day.) The only jobs he has ever had were the ones who fell into his lap for one reason or another. Anything that goes wrong, it's always someone else's fault. He has no regard for authority -- which, I have to admit, sometimes serves him well because he is not intimidated by authority figures so he will talk freely with them -- he has become friendly with the head of the college he attends -- when I was that age, I would sooner die than start chatting up the president of my college. He is super bright and has a lot of talent, but he is not proactive and we have to prompt him to do almost anything. I keep thinking and hoping that a lot of this is because we have made his life fairly easy -- he has no bills, has very few responsibilities, etc. -- and when he is actually on his own, he will rise up to the occasion. I know this can happen because it happened to me! I was a lazy slob as a teenager, and I am now super organized, my house is clutter-free, I run a 5-person household and I have a part time job... I know lazy teens can grow into productive adults! For him, because of his issues, it will be more difficult, and I think he is going to learn some very hard lessons. Our plan is for him to move into an apt. in the fall, and we have told him we will pay for his rent for one year, but he must pay all other expenses. I think we're going to get a lot of desperate phone calls during the first year (at least) but I hope it's a learning experience and that he will be able to handle Real Life eventually! But this is a topic of almost constant conversation between DH and me these days.

Our younger son is the complete opposite in every way, but they are both really good-hearted, smart kids with strong consciences. Older DS never drank or had sex until he went to college. Then he experimented with all of the above, but always in a "safe" way (you know -- had beer but didn't drive, smoked some pot with friends in dorm rooms, had sex with a girl with whom he was in a committed relationship and was "in love"). Younger DS is 16 and is still not really ready for girls and has a very nice social life playing sports and video games with his guy friends. I am very happy that my kids so far have been "late bloomers"! Younger DS actually said to me last year, when I was asking him about drinking in his age group/class, "Mom, I'm surrounding myself with friends who are good for my education." I thought OMG, who is this child? Oh yes, he is DH's son!

We always say our DD could run the house better than any of us, though! ;)

"My point is not that my son is great (although I clearly think he is), but that many of these ordinary young men of today have the seeds of greatness in them."

Daisy, I'm going to think of that when dealing with the young men in my life. I sure hope they do. I think last night I was so discouraged... There is a huge epidemic around here of opiate addiction. I see the hollow-eyed boys everywhere and I just want to fix them up.

Graywings, you are very right that the teens today are navigating very dangerous waters. The consequences really are a lot harsher like you said. I was talking to the bunch of them a few weeks ago about a guy I know who can't volunteer at his kids' school because of an arrest as a teen. They were shocked.

Sue, it sounds like you have a good plan for your older DS. I've worked with kids like him and it seems like there is always a tipping point..when something becomes important enough to make them want to try to do better and look outside themselves. DD sure is the same way when she is home. Room always a disaster, money comes and goes way too fast...yet at school she works super hard. We call it "Allie's world"..she is just sort of oblivious to the rest of us.

My DS is like yours..happy with his "men" playing sports, goofing off, and laughing. The girls are on the outskirts still, but I think not for long. I asked the boys recently who they'd go to if they wanted to buy pot. Turns out they know exactly where to get just about any drug you could want. They also sort of spilled info about who in their group of friends is using what. I was horrified that some of their teammates and the sons of people I know are messing around with prescription drugs. So scary.

I've been following this post closely and feel so much better after you posted sueb20. Our families sound alot alike. My oldest son (19) is giving us a run for our money. 14 year old son is responsible and doing well, as is 10 year old daughter. But oldest is ADD in denial, even though he was diagnosed as a child and is not medicated. He is all over the place and doing poorly in community college. He works where it is suppposed to be part-time, but they are taking advantage of him and giving him way too many hours. School is suffering. He won't share/can't share feelings and won't ask for help. We've encouraged him to quit job, he won't do it. But job isn't really the problem. He was doing poorly last semester and he wasn't working at all. Everything is somebody else's fault. He actually does alot of things right. His character is good and he has a big heart. He is good to his siblings. He took his sister, then 8 to a father/daughter dance when he was 17 because she wanted to go and her dad was out of town working. I don't know of too many 17 year olds that would do that. They made wonderful memories. He does a little drinking to fit in with friends but is not getting drunk or using drugs. We talk with him when he comes home from being with them. And we know he's not sexually active. He wants to save that part of himself for the forever girl, yet he's never been in a serious relationship with a girl. He has lots of difficulty knowing, expressing, and managing his emotions. He is a hard worker and very intelligent. Everyone that meets him and knows him really likes him. He just cannot seem to get it together. I, too hope that he will learn from his mistakes and pull it all together. But with school, he has repeated mistakes. We suggested he take a semester off but he refuses. It's like he doesn't understand that decisions to not prioritize school and keep up with assignments will affect his life 3 months, 6 months, even years down the road. He's not connecting the dots. Although he's unfocused, disorganized and late everywhere he goes, it's almost like he got the wrong diagnosis, but I don't know what the right one is and could NEVER get him to see someone. But we love him sooooo much. We try to help him as much as we can with all of this and we pray for him non stop. Thanks for letting me rant on. Regarding the title of the post, I hope he grows up to be the man he wants to be, but for now, he seems so much like a child.

I think that most parents shouldn't take too much credit for their children's successes nor too much blame for their failures.

Of course I think good parenting makes a difference. I try hard, just like most of the moms I know. But sometimes young people don't make good choices. We do the best we can as parents.

On the other hand, some of the most wonderful people I know made some bad choices when they were younger. They grew up, learned from their mistakes and became better people.

Bethpen,in my job I see a lot of young men and women who made poor choices who are trying to put their lives back together. I know what you mean. Fortunately I get to see some of them succeed, and it's such a sweet, sweet victory every time I watch it happen.

My mother, who is 83, has 13 grandchildren and 2 great-grandchildren. The grandchildren range in age from 6 to 28. My mom had 6 children but has often said that she is so glad that she is not raising her children in this day and age. She has mentioned that she feels it was so much easier when she was raising us and that we have so many more concerns and issues to be aware of. As a family, we have been fortunate or lucky that the 13 grandchildren (2 of them are my kids and the rest are, of course, my nieces and nephews) have, except for the occasional slight detour, turned out to be on the path to becoming great adults.

We were raised by parents who took an active interest in our lives, both of my parents worked and there wasn't a lot of money but they made it work. Was it perfect, of course not, but we always knew that we were loved and valued. And I think that that is what produces secure and happy young adults - knowing that that are loved and valued. Unfortunately, I do know that that isn't always enough. Sometimes, bad choices are made by young people despite the efforts of parents and other family members. And then What?

Sueb20 & joanie, similar tale here. My troubled two are almost 29 & 25 now, and there seems to be some truth to the idea that the prefrontal cortex (locus for executive functioning) does mature in one's late 20s. Theirs suddenly kicked in last summer. One said, "Hey! I need to finish my degree," and is managing academics in a faraway city really well -- for the first time in his life. The other said, "Hey! I need to get out of my parents' basement and live on my own," and he's managing as well as could be expected but doing fine, also in a faraway city. Both made these decisions independently from Mom & Dad. Kinda shocking for them to suddenly grab the reins and say, "Here, let ME handle it!"

Here is a link that might be useful: info on prefrontal cortex maturation

awm, that's funny, DH and I will occasionally joke to each other that we still have a few more years before DS is "fully formed" because of that whole prefrontal cortex thing. On the one hand, our DS totally wants to do it on his own, is dying to get out of here (as he reminds us every time we have a disagreement), but he has no idea what it's going to involve. I don't think there's any way for him to get it other than to just DO it.

While I don't want to lay the blame totally on parents I do think there are too many parents who abdicate responsibility. Prior to WWII many mothers didn't work and society was more agrarian so kids had jobs and someone to supervise them so they had to 'grow up'. Today with both parents working most kids have little supervision sometimes from an early age, and many parents do not teach their children life skills. Also while I like some TV programs most kids have watched too much from an early age and have a totally skewed idea of what real life is all about.

Both my DH and I had SAHM's so we had agreed before we had kids that I would stay home until they were in school. When I went back to work at a demanding career DH organized the kids so he and they did most of the housework regularly. He made a job list and they could pick what they wanted to do. He put it to them that with Mom working there would be benefits to them but that Mom couldn't do everything. Even while I was a SAHM our kids had done some jobs but not on a schedule. As a result all our kids learned responsibility and how to do things. Sure our house was not as 'perfect' as when I had been at home but it was good enough for all of us. As a result all our kids learned how to clean house, and more importantly learned responsibility, and are now high functioning adults who are also teaching their children skills they need to know. Our 2 sons were in the military for short periods and learned even more useful skills and attitudes there. Not saying our kids were/are perfect but I'm proud of all of them as they are doing the best they can and IMO their early training has made their lives easier in many ways.

We also made sure our kids had sports, hobbies, music and a supervised social life and no topics were taboo for discussion. Kids who are busy with productive endeavors usually don't have time to get into trouble. Both my DH and I taught our moral standards through example and tho 2 out of 3 of our kids did experiment a bit with drugs it didn't become part of their lives. Our kids knew they were loved and that we wanted the best for them but they also knew that was not coming to them on a silver platter but they had to work for it.

When people are not given responsibility, allowed consequences, and no one has expectations of them most will revert to the lowest level of their peer group which is obvious from many segments of our society is not a good place.