It is true... but they have to be declared emancipated (if under 18) and have their own address (cannot be living with you anymore!). They also have to have personal income to cover their expenses.

They have to prove that they are truly independent. Then they can qualify for grants, etc on their own.

How long does that last for? Will they want my information after he's 18? 19? 20? If he somehow makes it through the first year of college, and lives at home, while paying all his own bills (even token rent), will he then be considered an "adult" by the colleges or will he still be a child, who I am financially responsible for? At what point do they evaluate on the child's (or at that point, young adult's) ability instead of the parents? My children are on their own for college. I paid for my own college, my husband paid for his, and I think we value it more because of that.

I guess I'm just wondering when the college will treat them as an adult? Betcha if I asked for the kids records and grades, all of a sudden the "kid" would be an adult, and I wouldn't be entitled to any of that information, even if I was paying for it. =0)

Is there a website or book or something where I can look into this? I have no intention of allowing colleges a peek at my financial records, but if there's something (besides kicking my son into the street) that I can do to ensure that they are evaluating the children on the children's ability to pay, instead of mine, I'd like to take a look at it. (He's only a HS Freshman now, so I have a little time for research.)

Thanks
Mil

FAFSA (federal student aid) will require your information until your child is 24. Colleges use the same information.

Here is a link that might be useful: FAFSA web site

"If he somehow makes it through the first year of college, and lives at home, while paying all his own bills (even token rent), will he then be considered an "adult" by the colleges"

Nope. If he is living with mom and dad, he is not emancipated!

He has to be on his own...totally (that means NO tax deduction for you either).
NO help from you. With an income that pays his rent, food, clothing, etc.

He can still be your dependent and be on his own for college, especially if academic scholarships come into play. DS has a full tuition scholarship - we do not have to file a FAFSA for that.

The kicker that killed us was the fact that FAFSA considers a step-parent's income. Doesn't matter if the step-parent has a dozen kids he's supporting, that level of income is used rather than the non-custodial biological parent. If they would have used my teaching income and my son's father's income as a police officer in a small town for the income, he probably would have qualified for some grants. His step-dad's income shot that out of the water.

Gloria

"I have no intention of allowing colleges a peek at my financial records"

Why not?
The government already knows a lot about you from tax forms. What's another form (FAFSA)?

The financial aid people have a lookback that goes back several years. When I was in college, a friend was struggling to pay her way because her father had kicked her out, but the financial aid people still considered his ability to pay--essentially, they believed it was a scam to get more aid. Each year, they extended the lookback period. I think it wound up being the whole 4 years.

And this was (groan) almost 20 years ago. I bet it's only gotten worse.

Since I was in the military, and my husband retired from the military, and currently works as a DAC, the government knows ALL about my finances, and a great deal more about my life.

It's a principle of the matter kind of thing. The governement says that I have no "responsibility" for my child after he turns 18. He is an adult, is treated as an adult in every other aspect of his life. He can sign up for the military and die for his country. (Can't drink while doing it, but that's another issue) He can sign contracts and is responsible for his own bills, etc... BUT he can't get help for college unless they look at MY financial records? He is responsible for every aspect of his life (financial and otherwise), except THIS one?!? That's not logical.

I do not see where a college my son chooses to attend, who is providing HIM a service, thinks that they are entitled to MY information. You can't have it both ways. Either he is a child and I am resposible for him or he's an adult and I'm not.

I do not support stupid laws or practices. And these practices seem to be in direct conflict with the law. He will just have to find another way. There are other scholarships out there, grants and/or loans are not the only way.

Instead of "why not?" I guess the question would have to be WHY? They can not dictate that I give my 18yo "x" amount of my income, so why is it a consideration? They have no control over what I do with the money I earn (and neither does my son), so why is it their business how much of it I have? Why do they have any right to use my financial information when making decisions for other adults? And when he turns 18, the government considers my son an adult in his own right. Like I said, it's just not logical.

*Sheesh!* Getting down off the soapbox now...... =0)

Anyway, grants are out. Unless something catastrophic happens in the next few years, we make too much money (taking my husband's income into account) for him to qualify.

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. =0)
Mil

There pretty much are no grants anymore, anyway.

I agree it makes no sense, but I'm not sure I've ever encountered any 'system' in this country that actually did, from health care to taxes.

Principles are great, but please think twice before making your son take on $150k of debt before starting out in life. It's a terrible burden, especially with wages on their way down w/ respect to inflation.

I don't know what the alternative would be. I suppose we could make college free or give all students low to no interest loans. One does feel a bit stupid for saving for their child's education when not to do so can mean large grants.

My son is truly paying his own way. He is starting college in the fall at the age of 24. He has worked and saved to get the money. He is still living at home and paying me rent. IF you want your son to value his education by paying for it himself, then that is an option open to him.

Your son absolutely can get loans without your providing any info about your income *if* he has the credit and income to qualify for a private loan to cover college. That's pretty much how loans work on the open market. Think about it, if your 18 yo wanted a 100K mortgage with no income and no credit, would he qualify?
On the other hand, if he wants a loan that does not take into account his lack of income and/or credit you'll have to cosign/give over your financial info.

I moved out of my parents house and was completely self supporting when I was 20. I made $5 an hour at my full time job (about 10K a year) and paid my rent, insurance, and all expenses. I *still* couldn't qualify for any aid (including loans) until I either got married, had a child, or turned 24.

"...He can still be your dependent and be on his own for college, especially if academic scholarships come into play. DS has a full tuition scholarship ..."

Just keep in mind that to claim your child as a dependent you must provide over half their support. If your child has scholarships that counts as support that the child provides for themselves (and not as support provided by the parents). In this case the parents must provide at least $1 more in support than the amount of the scholarship (plus any income the child may have) to claim the child as a dependent.

housenewbie: I would NEVER counsel any of my children to take on 150K of debt.... EVER. Especially non-secured. Almost all colleges will allow you to take a class or two at a time (if that's what you can afford), and doing a little research will ensure that no matter where you go, your credits will transfer.

Devorah: Congratulations to your son!! You must be very proud of him. =0) I know that it CAN be done, but it does take a level of commitment that having your parents pay for college does not.

angc: I would HOPE that any 18yo with no income, and no credit would not qualify for any kind of loan for any amount, but I rather suspect that someone, somewhere would loan him money nowadays. My son will definitely have an "income" by the time he's 18, he can't wait until he's 16 and can get a job other than mowing lawns and doing yard work for the neighbors. It may not be a living income, but it will be income. I am willing to help by allowing him to live here, so that he won't have to work another 60 hours (per month) to pay for rent while he is going to college.

liketolearn: Are you saying that you can claim your able bodied adult child on your taxes? For real?!? What does that do to THEIR tax return? Do they still qualify to get back everything they would be due? What does that do to their Social Security (SS) benefits? Provided of course that there are SS benefits when they get older. It is becoming clearer why so many parents are willing to take financial responsibility for their capable adult children. I still don't agree with it, but I'm beginning to understand.... a little.

"... Are you saying that you can claim your able bodied adult child on your taxes? For real?!? What does that do to THEIR tax return? Do they still qualify to get back everything they would be due?..."

You may claim your adult child who is a student as dependent if:
~ Must be your child or stepchild
~ As of Dec 31st must be under age 24 and FT student for min of 5 months.
~ Child can not provide more than half their own support.

You may claim your adult child who is NOT a student as a dependent if:
~ Must be a relative (son, daughter, etc)
~ Adult child must have gross income of less than $3200.
~ Taxpayer must provide more than 1/2 of individual's support.

If an adult child is claimed as a dependent then when they file their tax return they may not claim a personal exemption and the standard deduction is reduced. The result is that the adult child gets a smaller refund.

"...What does that do to their Social Security (SS) benefits? ..."

Your SS benefits are based on what you earn and what you pay in. So if you don't earn much your SS benefits will be lower.

"...It is becoming clearer why so many parents are willing to take financial responsibility for their capable adult children. I still don't agree with it, but I'm beginning to understand.... a little..."

Most parents do not take financial responsibility for their adult child because they might be able to claim them as a dependent. It costs much more to support that adult child then the increased refund amount. Why do they do it? I'm sure it's out of love but the fact is that they are NOT helping their children! A child (or adult child) that doesn't learn financial responsibility will never have anything regardless of how much money they have. They will always be broke because they didn't learn how to handle money. Learning how to handle money and be financially responsible is one of the most important lessons you can teach your child. Getting off my soapbox now ...

Momto6, I think the logic that you are missing is that financial aid and grants come from everyone else. Specifically financial aid in many schools comes at the expense of higher tuition. The rules are designed so that someone like me does not have to pay to educate your child while you have the money to do so. Even if you choose not to your reasons are valid, the rule prevent the scenario above. Plus then consider those who attempt to do these things for their own personal gain not out of a conviction such as yours.

Check Amazon or your local bookstore and get the most comprehensive book you can find about paying for college.

To get through it at the least cost, have your student do two years at a community college which has a good transfer program. After transfering to a 4-year institution, the student can go to school part-time and work part-time to help meet expenses. Probably won't graduate in two years, but the important thing will take place eventually...graduation.

The FAFSA is a horrible form to fill out, private loans are very expensive. Before getting a private loan, calculate the total to be paid back when paying the loan off in full. That'll make you think twice about it.

As for scholarships, your best bet is with local organizations, not the big national scholarships you hear about.

Also check with your high school. Ours had a couple of evenings with parents of juniors and seniors with an "expert" answering questions about how to afford it. If your school has something like that, you could go, even if your child isn't a junior or senior yet. If they don't have such a program, ask if they know where one is.

Good luck.

liketolearn: I'm sorry, but that just blows my mind! It's like "rewarding bad behavior". The parents can say "well at least I can claim them on my taxes", thus making it somehow more OK that their able bodied adult child is well and truly a child, and NOT an adult. The kids I'm sure get a little less grief because the parents are "getting something out of it". I know that it's not equal, and that the parents pay more than the tax write off, but still. Good Grief! Not to mention what it does to the "sense of entitlement" that seems prevalent in today's society. What is going to happen when they are all truly on their own and their parents can't bail them out anymore? I just don't know.

My husband says congratulations by the way. He has rarely seen me speechless. =0)

landmarker: I do understand a little, after all I pay taxes to support the public school system. No, none of my children attend. I own a house though, so I will pay for that school. Unfortunately, I happen to agree that most of the children that do attend public school would not be taught any other way, so like the US, although it isn't perfect (or even close in terms of the public school system), it's the best thing going. I AM paying to educate my neighbor's children, the town's children, regardless of their parent's income, and I know that some of those can afford to send their child to a private school, they just choose not to.

If my child (under 18 and residing in my home), were to choose to attend college courses, I would most certainly pay for those courses. Should he (or any of them) choose to complete high school early and move on to college prior to turning 18, again, I would pay for that (until they turned 18). I have the responsibility of raising that child and looking after his best interest until he turns 18. I took on that responsibility at birth.

I doubt that much of the "student aid or grants" are given to children in any case. They are given to adults. (which is my point.) The law states that once you are 18 years old, you are an adult. You would not be sending my child to college, you would be sending another adult to college. That should be merit based, not on how much money your parents have, but on you yourself. (I know judging the individual on his/her own merits is a utopia I will probably never see, but it is still the ideal.) Judging one individual on the merits or actions of another individual (or group) has a not very nice word attached to it.

My child will not have the income at 18 that I have at 40-50. Very few, if any 18yos will have the income I do at 40-50. They will have to work for the same 20-30 years to have that income. AND they will have to EARN it.

There are other options, other "aids". Scholarships for example. Working part time, working at the college, for the college, taking 8 years for a 4 year degree and working, or the military and the benefits that they offer are the ones that come immediately to mind. All of those are merit based... my child would only be judged on his actions, on his own merit.

Yes, there are people that will take advantage of each and every situation out there that it's possible for them to take advantage of. Not who I'm raising my children to be, but I know they are out there. They are part of the "entitlement" thing. Folks are not interested in the time, sacrifices, or hard work it took for the "Jones'" (or their parents for that matter) to get what they got, they just want it so they should be able to have it. And then wail or bail (bankruptcy) when the lifestyle they did not earn ends up costing them too much.

It just seems to me to be basically, at it's core, wrong, to judge a child on the net worth of his parents. Or one person on the net worth of another. I won't allow it out of my children, why would I allow it of my government or colleges? If this is what they are teaching, well..... there are apprenticeships out there too. You always have options.

socks12345: Thank you. I will look the next time I'm at the store for such a book. And I'll check with the local homeschool association to see if they have any information on scholarships for college as well. I don't think the local high school has anything of the sort, but I'll ask a few of my friends who work there and see if I can find out.

Ya'll have a good day. Personal responsibility and prejudice in any form are two of my major push buttons, and I hope I didn't push to many of yours. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Mil

This thread makes me think of my deceased brother's two boys, now 15 and 17. Mom is an often unemployed waitress. They've been getting by on my brother's Social Security survivor benefits that end at age 18. There is nothing, anywhere, for them or the Mom to tap for college. No savings, no home equity, nada. I think when the system sniffs around about parental assets, it is important to appreciate that there are many high school kids like them who don't have ANY other funding options.

I want those boys to believe in higher education and to go for it. So much so that that I will tap my own equity if it comes down to that, because I want them to have a shot. To augment what they can borrow. Is it asking too much for parents to do the same?

Provocative, but I felt I had to say it.

Well stated CelticMoon. I am glad to hear you can help. Your nephews illustrate the point about why evaluating parent participation is important. I cannot understand why some investment bankers kid would be entitled to the same level of aid which is what would happen if parents were not required to disclose their finances. So there is less money available for those who cannot afford it. Do you honestly think the average millionaire would say, oh my kid who got into Harvard will not go since he did not get enough aid and I want him to go to Z College instead so he can work his way through? While there are always the exceptions, the average wealthy person is thrilled his kid is at a good school and is more than willing to write the check.

The truth is that a gifted student or athlete in that of Celtics nephews situation has an excellent chance at a good education and a combination of scholarships (usually from the school), grants (school or businesses or government) and low interest loans (not all college loans are). Scholarships and grants do not have to be repaid. Often they are not even based on academics or sports, there are small ones out there for kids from a particular area, interested in a specific hobby, that type of thing. Apparently there are now web sites that identify them. So really poor kids who are gifted still have a shot.

Its the ones who are average or are mildly gifted but whose parents are neither poor nor wealthy enough to comfortably afford college that need to worry the most. Even if you make 150k a year, putting 3 kids through college at 40k each, good luck. Also, says this Mother of Five (all 10 and under), schools look at how many kids you are sending to school at one time. I changed my planning after the 4th and 5th were born because now our situation was different!

Either he is a child and I am resposible for him or he's an adult and I'm not

There is no reason for my child to suffer for a principle. The reality is without filling out an aid application, my child will not be eligible. Bottom line this is the way the system works, accept it or write to your congressman to have universal college education paid for by the government. Some states had almost that when I was in college. Schools ranger from 7k -10k a year while UT at Austin was about 500 (no idea what it costs now).

You can argue that he should work his way through and leave the aid money for Celtic's nephews, fine. You can also argue that since it is unlikely he will qualify for aid you do not want to hurt his chances of admission (yes this does happen when a kid is on the fence, they will take the one who does not ask for money) or reveal your finances to strangers. Ok I can accept that. Or that giving him more than X will severly endanger your own retirement, I can also accept that.

Unless your child plans a future in the military (which is possible given your background and West Point is free but is not possible or desireable for everyone(no offense different strokes) or has an entrepenuarial bent or a talent in sports or sales or a vocation, the best way I can see to give my children their best shot at money and position and job satisfaction is to encourage them to go to the best college and graduate school they can get into. Sure if there is an equally good cheaper state school, by all means PLEASE attend.

To arbitraily say, ok the government says I am no longer responsible for him even though I was responsible for him yesterday and was even willing to pay yesterday but I am not paying today, please. It is arbitrary. I agree with you that it does seem odd that you could no longer access his medical records or school records after that day. But this was not a rule he invented.

I believe I have the responsibilty to raise a child until he is a functioning adult in a career that his intellect and education suite him for. If I worked so hard for 18 years to raise him, why would I dump him just as he was nearing the finish line? Why does my child have to reinvent the wheel? Just because my DH worked his way through school and took out loans, why does my child? My parents paid my way and if possible I would like to pay my childs. Frankly my parents taught me a lot more about money management than did DHs. I had a lot of educating to do when we got married. He rarely discussed money with them except to hear what they could not afford. Now that he makes his own he feels a certain entitlement and is sometimes a little overly generous with himself. I keep meaning to read Rich Dad Poor Dad. He had no idea how to use credit or invest. I cannot believe the crap he invested in when he made his first money. As for carrying a balance on credit cards at 15% while paying off his 5% student loans, do not get me started (ancient history now). If anything I would teach children how to manage money, how to invest it and use credit wisely. As for working why would I have them waste hours they could be studying working at some menial after school job making minimum wage. Sure a work ethic is important, summer jobs are a good thing. However as far as I can tell until they graduate from college or start working, they have one job and that is to work on their academics to achieve as much as possible. This is the ideal version. The reality is my kids may have to work to help pay for college but it will not be because of some arbitrary principle but rather because of genuine need

Claiming them or not on their taxes has nothing to do with anything

celticmoon: Not sure what you meant as "provocative", your opinion is your opinion and I'm not feeling "provoked". =0) Much of society today feels as you do.

Before I get into something that you may dismiss, if your brother's children are still in school I do not believe that their SSI ends at 18, you just have to fill out a few more forms to have it continue at least until they graduate high school. The school will likely have to fill out a form as well. They may cut off at 19 or 20, I just don't know the particulars, but I know we will support them through high school. I have no information about whether we will continue to support them through college.

Now for the "provocative" stuff. =0) Do you think that I should be penalized because I did what I had to do, acted responsibly with my finances and my life? Because I took nothing and made something out of it? Because I worked my hiney off for 20 years, and someone else did not? Because I sacrificed to make ends meet and put a little away so that when we could no longer work we could still live? Yes, luck factors into it sometimes, but hard work and preparation factor into it ALL the time.

I do not think that ANY one is "entitled" to financial aid, or grants. I still think they should all be based on merit, and that merit is not how much income your parents have. IF a person wants a grant or aid, they should be willing to give something back. A certain number of years at a salary much less than the "market" maybe. In an area that can't get the workers any other way. There is NO ONE who can't afford that. Not the 18yo just starting out, nor the new mom who can not support her child, nor the old mom who life beat down or ran into incredible "bad luck", nor the guy down on his luck because the job he's worked at since high school is now obsolete.

Quite frankly I can think of worse ways to spend my tax dollars. And I doubt anyone could get a better return on that investment.

saphire: There is a difference in "evaluating parental participation", and wanting to have access to my financial records because you expect me to pay for another adult to go to college. Again, NO one should be "entitled" to student aid. You want to assess fair market value on rent, because I allow him to live in my home while attending college? Fine. You don't need my records for that.

ALL adults who are willing to work "have a shot" at college. Only the ones who expect others to take care of them and pay all their bills, with very little effort on their part lose. And those folks will find some way that you "owe" them, no matter what.

Aside from some very basic and different views of the responsibility an adult, ANY adult, even those that are just barely adults, have towards society at large and their self in particular, I do not know that are views are very different. Neither wants our child to "suffer", we just have different views of what constitutes "suffering". Both of us wants our child to go to college if that is their choice, we just disagree on whose responsibility it is to pay for it. Both of us want our children to be happy in their chosen profession, we just disagree on what the journey should be like.

I have tried to stay away from anything personal, and leave inflammatory words out of my post, but this I feel must be addressed. You are happy retaining responsibility for your child's life, I am happy to allow my child to take responsibility for his own life. Should you not be there on your child's 18th birthday, no one else is going to feel the same responsibility as you do to finish raising your 18 year old adult child. He'll be on his own, and everyone else in the world is going to expect him to support himself, and be a productive member of society. Not "become" one, BE one. They are not going to think that his "only job is doing well in school". I hope that you are preparing your children for the POSSIBILITY that at 18, they may actually have to be responsible for themselves. This is the reality version.

You have your opinion, I have mine, and that is what makes this country a diverse and wonderful place.

Mil

Mil, right there with you on the working hard against the odds, etc. Just don't get me started on spendthrifts jeopardizing my future by leasing new cars every few years instead of saving for retirement. (OK, rant over. Back to the issue...) I do like your idea of payback through service. That is actually a common way of getting through med school these days. I think after training you have to do 3 years in 'underserved' areas. I've worked with a lot of docs working off their payback. I am not aware of widespread similar programs for undergraduate though. Except the military.

My nephews will be graduating high school right around 18. My sister who lives closer is more on top of the nuts and bolts, but as I understand it, Social Security is not like, say health insurance, where you can keep a son/daughter on your policy, as long as they are a full time student, up to age 25. After 18 (or high school) that's that, game over. Just like child protective services, foster care, and all that ends abruptly at age 18. Seems so young, doesn't it? To me they are such kids yet in many ways.

BTW, I think you and Sapphire are not so far apart really. You both care about your kids and seem like you're both going to be there for them emotionally. And I'll bet you'd both be there for them financially too, if something horrific happened and they needed you. Regardless of their 'emancipation' on paper as far as college funding. You are more alike than different. And your kids will benefit.

My point before was that some kids don't have that backup. At all. And a surprise $300 fee somewhere along the line is a flat out deal breaker for college when you are on the edge alone. Sad.

I had a client once that worked out a compromise with her kids.
The child had to pay for the first 2 years of college and the parents paid for the last 2 years.

The kid went to the local community college for the first 2 years because the tuition was cheaper and the kids had to pay the tuition.
The kids lived at home and the parents paid for the car, insurance, and gas.

After 2 years the kids switched to a university or private school and the parent paid the tuition.
The kids lived at college but had to work to pay for their car, insurance, gas, and spending money.

They said this way their kids worked for and had an appreciation for their college without having a huge debt when they graduated.

I thought it was a pretty smart solution to helping your kids and yet teaching them financial responsibility.

While I do not agree with the philosophy or premises of the OP (and I am a frugal person who was, in effect, "penalized" for making responsible choices), I would like to mention that merit aid does exist. I have just completed the application year for my first child: we selected colleges both with our hearts (excellent liberal arts) and with our heads (state school, schools known for merit aid). As it happened, he got merit aid at all schools. One key is to apply BELOW what your child is "qualified" for; if you apply a tier down, you will get some merit aid. If you apply two tiers down, you will get a lot. (By tiers I mean that colleges have "ranks"--like the army--it's a hierarchical system).

If you are on a quest for merit aid, I'd suggest you start thinking about it now (and get the kid involved). Things change though--one school my son applied to raised its tuition by $6000 a few days after applications were due.

Thirty years ago, I thought that I would expect my kids to work their way through college as I had. But college costs have gone up more than inflation since then, so I'm not so sure now. At any rate, I don't have kids, but have still read this thread with interest. I do have nieces and nephews.

I have seen friends pay for thier kids' college, though not necessarily their spending money. The kids were expected to hold full time summer jobs or take a full summer load in college. While they were in school, that was their job and they were expected to do it well, and sometimes hold a part-time job also. As one friend cheerfully told me, they'd better make the best of it, because they're getting their inheritance early.

I'm surprised to read that Social Security survivor's benefits now stop at high school. I had a college roommate who still received benefits as long as she was a full time student. I don't imagine they would have continued indefinitely, but would get her through 4 years of school.

I have also followed this thread with interest. I was able to complete my education thanks to an employer who had educational benefits. I attended classes at night after work.

But most young people today don't have that option. My grandsons are still young, but I hope to be able to help them. Being able to graduate without a load of student debt is a huge headstart - and a wonderful gift, if one can afford it.

Didn't want to be blabbing misinformation , so I checked. This is from the federal Social Security site:

"Three months before your child's 18th birthday, we will send you a notice that benefits will end at age 18 unless your child is a full-time student at a secondary ( or elementary) school. If your child is younger than 19 and still attending a secondary or elementary school, he or she must notify us by completing a statement of attendance that has been certified by a school official. The benefits then will usually continue until he or she graduates, or until two months after reaching age 19, whichever comes first."

There it is. Guess there won't be anything coming from there for my nephews.