I'd be direct with him about your Mom. If something were to happen to him, you need to know what he wants done with her. How he wants her cared for and who he wants to be responsible. Once he has decided, tell him what needs to be done in order for his wishes to be met. Do you know if he has a DNR order? Does he want one? It's past due for that little talk.

My elders also refused to give a Lawyer a cent. They set up what they called a "Farmer Will." That meant that their kids were put on their accounts as owners. Anyone could write a check or transfer $$ from one place to another. When the last person dies, the money was split between the owners, after expenses.

If there is a house, we set it up (my sister did this part) where once Mom died, it automatically went to her children. She put something on the deed that mom signed. I can ask her if you want. She was President of an Escrow Office for a zillion years and I trust she knows what she is talking about.

In CA, anyone who admits a person into long term care or the hospital has automatic POA if that person can't make decisions.

Way to step up, Dee!!!

State to state the laws are different, so you really need to talk to someone where you are.

In general, you should be able to find a power of attorney for health care form through your local hospitals, or bar association, through a site for seniors in your area, from a local branch of the Alzheimer association, or just by searching on line. It will simply, and in plain language, have statements that your father can initial indicating what kind of medical care he would want, who he wants to be the person to decide, and successors.

Does he have a will?

Is there a POA for your mom already? If she is so ill, clearly she cannot make that decision for herself legally. If he fears giving up control, things can be set up so that whoever he chooses to have power of attorney in general matters has no power until he is incapacitated or deceased.

What I think you need to make your dad understand is that if he doesn't put these things in place, he is leaving you a terrible burden, having to make decisions without knowing what he would want, or what to do for your mom should he not be available to decide. Planning ahead is the greatest gift he can give you. And hard as it is to consider, the reality is for any human being that we can be fine today, and tomorrow be incapacitated by a stroke or other major health crisis, and then it is too late to plan.

This is a tough time, because the focus is on things we don't like to think about, like illness and death. I would add that since you already have a relationship with the good attorney, it might be worth your time and money to get an hour consult from him/her about what you need.

I wish you well. My dad was very much the same way - the only good thing was that he was an attorney, so did have many things in place. But everything was very much in his control, and very private. I will tell you that he never expected to get ill as quickly as he did, or die so soon. He was 82, and fully expected to live to be 100 (his dad died at 98). So there were some things of some import that he did not get time to handle - and they were not handled in the end as he would have wanted them.

Thanks, gold. He does have my name and my DB's name on his accounts. I never heard that term "Farmer Will". He told us we just had to go to the banks (he refuses to have more than the FDIC insurable amount in any one bank) and get the funds.

The DNR talk is harder than the money talk. He's always been fearful of dying and this recent round of problems stems from that fear. He thought he was having a heart attack (I guess shingles acts that way) originally though the doctors told him his heart was like a 20 year olds!

He told us he just wishes he knew if he were going to die, because he needs to take care of some things!
Dee

Wonderful advice, Les. I'm going to search for those forms online and hopefully get him to sign them on my visit on Wednesday

I guess my main question, and biggest concern, is how to care for my mother if my father is incapacitated. Would I have to go to court to get approval to make decisions for my mother?

I had told my father a few years ago that I would care for my mother if something happened to him; however, she needs more care than either my brother or I could give. We've tried to get him to get help but he refuses saying my mother wouldn't want anyone else in the house. She thinks I'm a stranger much of the time, though, and doesn't seem to bother her. They're still living in a four-level split and every ring of the phone....

He deludes himself thinking if something happened to him, DM would know to call 911.

If your father won't talk to an attorney, you need to do so. Find an attorney who specializes in elder care. Take it from me, it's well worth the money.

First, I just spent 15 minutes responding to this thread. My internet server disconnected me from the remote side and I lost everything. Now you are getting shorthand.

Even though you know the condition your mother is in, your father is in denial. So you need to make the 'discovery' together. "Dad, you are having health problems and I'm concerned about you. Do you know if Mom could call 911? Let's unplug the phone and see." Tell him you want to see if she could do it in an emergency. Tell him to ask her for help. Remind him the phone is unplugged. Tell him to ask her to call 911 and see what happens. If she fails, act like you are discovering it with him. Tell him you think you need to make an appointment for a memory test because you think he isn't safe.

Go with him to that appointment. After her memory test, ask the Dr if s/he thinks your Mom could call 911 in an emergency and go from there. "Dad. we need to come to terms here and make some plans. We owe this to her and I owe it to you."

Explore it together, as if you are both coming to the realization together. Change it up to fit your own situation but the mutual discovery can bring him out of denial and lead way for dealing with the reality of the situation.

(I think my first post was better.)

If your mom hasn't signed a durable power of attorney (meaning it remains in effect after she becomes incompetent) then you would have to initiate a guardianship over her in court. It's not difficult and would only be so if she were fighting it or another family member was fighting it, saying THEY should be the guardian. The court will give you full power over her and her affairs. Of course you need an attorney should that come to pass, but in most states the fees for becoming guardian can be paid from the funds of the person needing the guardianship (if you don't have the funds yourself). The same would be true for your father if he won't give you the legal papers you need. The dnr is trickier, because first responders will do what is necessary to save people's lives and won't make a decision based on their ages or incapacities. Some care facilities will take the family wishes into account if the patient cannot say for themselves.

I am not a lawyer and never played one on tv, but worked in a legal aid office for many years where we helped elders with this sort of thing.

Dee, if your folks are in Ohio, you can get info here. There may even be some free legal help for them, even if they are not low income...most legal aids have $$ for helping seniors with legal issues, and there is no income test. But they might not do the kinds of things you need. But check out this site...

Here is a link that might be useful: Ohio Legal Aid for Seniors

I would definitely go to a lawyer. I strongly urge you to do that rather than getting forms off the net. Before my grandfather died, (he was in his 80's), he had everything in place. He and my grandmother had wills, I was named as his executor. He had also put me on all his banking accounts, etc. He had even gone over his tax records with me LOL. He knew my grandmother would not be able to handle it. They are of the generation where the man took care of all that. She had never even had to keep up a checkbook! After his death, my grandmother had her will re-done and that included a medical power of attorney (which is very different from a living will), and regular POA. These forms are very, very specific. She also has things spelled out in her will. She changed investments to her name, beneficiaries were named on some of these, etc. You need to think about all this and talk about it with your father. She has a wonderful lawyer who helped us through all this. The cost was not bad - it included everything and was well worth it. As it turns out, when we placed her in assisted living, we needed POA and medical POA in place. I'm glad my grandfather thought of things ahead of time.

Oh and no - your mother should not be signing checks, etc. if she is not of sound mind. I dealt with that issue with my grandmother - who had another relative living with her for a time. He was having her sign blank checks. If there is a POA in place, all that can be taken care of.

Wishing you the best - it is not an easy issue!

tina

Great advice. Since he refuses to pay attorney fees now would it help if you told him that the attorney fees will be significantly higher if he dies without taking care of this? We didn't even get into all the legal complications and time involved.

My DH was a sweetheart but he just couldn't grasp how complicated all these issues were. We finally convinced him that paying the attn fees now would save money in the long run. We also instructed the attorney to only bill DH for 1/2 the fee and to send us the other half. That helped too.

Olychick gives good advice. Sorry, but I'm coming back to read the responses after I've already replied. Our attorney explained to us that the guardianship can be a pain. I do keep good records of all my grandmother's expenses, accounts, etc. but in case of a guardianship/conservatorship apparently you must report these to the court periodically. Our attorney just said that it was more of a hassle. It is always good to do this ahead of time (IMO) if possible. I like Maire Cate's idea, if you are able to help, you might offer to pay some of the costs. Best of luck!

tina

What Tina says about guardianship being a pain is true. But I was just trying to illustrate that there is a process to deal with these issues if someone does not have all their legal ducks in a row before they become incompetent to do it themselves. It is not insurmountable and just knowing what is out there can sometimes take some of the pressure off of trying to figure out what to do.

There are other things to consider and that is mostly if there is other family that is going to interfere or care what is being done. As long as you are honest and acting in their best interest, it is possible to take some liberties with what is spelled out in a poa. I cared for an elderly aunt and a cousin with dementia for a few years. I had a durable poa on both and didn't need a special medical one because the one I had included medical. The biggest problems were with banks and with investment companies. I was homicidal a few times over trying to do things even with a valid poa. I finally got to a point that I had to have my incompetent cousin sign things because I was sick of the hassle. A couple of times I had to pretend I was my aunt on the phone because there was no other way to get things done (like problem solving electronic banking problems).

Also the IRS doesn't recognize a poa - they have their own forms for permission to sign tax forms. Well, sorry, but it was too late to get that form signed by the time I learned that. So I just signed for them both and luckily was never audited for it. Social Security also was a problem when I wanted to change banks for their direct deposit (to a bank that had a branch in my community). They required me to become a protective payee and I would have had to file reports on all their expenses periodically. Taking care of all this business was almost a full time job and there was no way I was adding that to my plate, so I left as it was.

It is a lot of responsibility and I'm sorry you are having to go through it. Your parents are very lucky to have you willing and able to do it. Really, do check into free legal services for them. Legal Aid attorneys are the cream of the crop and will do right by them.

And this is a reminder to the rest of us, regardless of age or health, to have these forms in place. You never know when a car accident or health problem may make them necessary.

"And this is a reminder to the rest of us, regardless of age or health, to have these forms in place. You never know when a car accident or health problem may make them necessary."

So true! We found that out when my grandfather was ill and the hospital didn't honor his living will. He didn't have a medical power of attorney. I also didn't have to do the protective payee form with social security.

Oly - that is so strange! I have signed my grandmother's tax return for several years now! I sign my name and then POA. This at the advice of her tax preparer!

I managed my Uncles affairs and was fully accountable to the State as they ended up subsidizing him in the care unit/ Nursing home. Ironically he received an inheritance and the check was cut two days before he died. I used that money to pay back the State for his care. Just like I knew he would want it. He was against receiving Charity of any kind.

This stuff is complicated but one can navigate it all if one is willing.

Wonder how many of us are in the same shoes?

Just another voice in the chorus advocating that you consult a good attorney.

A Living Will seems so simple! Until you actually go through it with someone who *really knows* these things inside and out and can walk you through the nuances... For example, I learned that withholding food is actually a relatively painless way to hasten an inevitable end, but that withholding water is NOT. There were certain other ways to word things that were unexpected (to me) but very, very valuable to have the advice of a good lawyer on. Things like NOT calling an ambulance at the end because they are required to attempt to resuscitate.

I went through this with my mother a few years ago -- total cost about $1,500. And money VERY well spent! There were also steps her lawyer had us take that cut the end-of-life paperwork down by 90%, avoiding probate and many other nasty annoyances.

I can certainly see where your DF is coming from -- He is of sound mind and doesn't want anyone taking control over his affairs. I totally get that! But provisions absolutely have to be in place to allow someone to take over quickly and seamlessly if he becomes incapacitated -- on a temporary or permanent basis.

His phrase 'If I die' is telling... Unless he knows something we don't, the operative word is 'when', and at 92?...

Depending on the laws of your state, you can get a durable POA without a lawyer. You may need to get signatures notarized.

With your mother, you might need a guardianship at this point--you probably would need a lawyer for that.

My father had a POA for financial matters, and all his bank accounts had at least one of his children on them (different kid for each account) but he, for some reason, refused to do the medical power of attorney.

And yes, we ran into a situation a few years before he died where he was not competent to make a decision (infections in the elderly can cause what seems like dementia). The hospital was able to work around this, but the doctors and officials were not happy with us. But he got the surgery he needed and lived happily for several more years.

So the POA isn't absolutely necessary, but it sure does make things a lot easier. And if you get it, see if you can get several certified or notarized or [insert whatever you have to do to make it legal in your state] copies. You may need to give one to your parent's primary doctor, another to a hospital, another to an assisted living facility, etc. I had a copy I just carried with me to all of Dad's doctor's appointments, medical tests, and hospitals, just in case.

Thank you everybody for your thoughtful, considered responses. I literally have a tear in my eye for all of you to have taken the time to type out such long, explicit responses.

My DB had surgery today so I was at the hospital all day and I stopped by my dad's but he was in so much pain from the shingles, I didn't ask him any financial questions.

I plan to print these responses out tomorrow so I can digest them with a clear head.

Just wanted to say thanks, though, as soon as possible.
Dee

My posts are more about emotional support rather than legal. I chose that route above all else in my life. Please know that and don't take legal advice from me.

Legal is not the way I prioritize my thinking so I submit to everyones opinion in this regard. (Not sure if there should be an ['] in everyones, so I chose kindness instead of abuse. Read for meaning.)

Camlan - we found out the hard way that a medical power of attorney is absolutely necessary. You were lucky that the hospital worked with you. In our case, my grandfather had a living will stating that he wanted no treatments, etc. to extend his life. He also had a DNR. BUT, when the time came, my grandmother was an emotional wreck and could not go along with that. She agreed to treatment that did extend his life (for a few days), and really just made things harder. We were upset with the hospital but soon found out that we should have had a medical power of attorney. When we placed my grandmother in an assisted living facility, they require both a medical and regular POA. Here, I don't believe you get one that covers both. It doesn't matter in our case as she named me as POA and my sister (who is a nurse) as medical POA. It is really easier for us that one person is not making all decisions, etc. I would imagine things are different from state to state. Glad you all had better luck!!

tina

Dee, I've got no advice for you, but I hope this all works out and that you take care of yourself during this difficult time!

A friend of mine was in a similar situation and went through A LOT of time and trouble because things weren't well-planned ahead of time. Her mom and dad were in their late 50's and mom has Multiple Sclerosis. Everything, EVERYTHING was planned for mom's death to come first. Sadly, dad became ill, was hospitalized, and died 2 or 3 days later, devastating the family. My friend is their only child, so she's spent entire days upon days in meetings with attorneys trying to get everything straightened out. I can't imagine the cost. You are very right in trying to get this all sorted out correctly.

Good luck to you and I hope it all works out for the best for you all!

Just quickly read through this thread and wanted to add that a simple POA expires when the grantor passes or becomes incapacitated, a durable only when the grantor passes. For banking purposes, a joint account with you and your DF's name is simplier and will allow you full and immediate access to funds if need be.

Also, if you are not an owner on the safety deposit
box contract(s), you may run into problems. I strongly suggest looking into that. Additionally, some states do an immediate lock-out of a jointly owned box when one owner passes, other do not.