To be fair my website is to inform my potential customers who ever they might be, having said that I understand that our website is the go to place for information. As per your suggestion I have added the racking system information with pictures to the page you refereed too. Thank you for the imput, it was over looked by myself at the time of making the site but now displayed clearly.

The warranty on the website did not morph overnight, it has never changed I merely pointed out that if you come to my website don't expect that coverage from anyone else.

To be blunt....If other retailers knew the Capital Culinarian at all they would be able to guide customers such as yourself properly with all relevant and correct information, unfortunately they don't. I don't feel any split obligation to help other retailers who only leach of my hard work. I will help other retailers customers if I feel they are getting the run around from Capital.

Please note..... I am a cheerleader for the Capital Culinarian range.... NOT FOR CAPITAL the company, I do this for the benefit of everyone but especially my company.

Typeprof or others who own a manual capital culinarian range please comment on the range now that you have used it for a while. A long time lurker on garden web I was all set to buy a manual cc, based on the discussion here, until I saw this thread. The problems with the racks in the manual cc have me reconsidering. I don't want a rotisserie or the self-clean option (never mind the additional cost). Typeprof would you repeat the purchase given your experiences using the range?

My husband does lots of wok cooking and I like to bake so we need a range that does both well. Both of us would prefer not to have any digital controls. Up to now, of the ranges we've had, our favorite range is our relatively new force 10 in our old sail boat. In the house we are building, except for a small oven in the masonry heater our only oven will be in the range.

Thank you all for the help you have given with your posts in the past - so helpful as we make plans for our retirement home.

I have the manual clean Culi, I never used the self clean feature in our old range, and I grill outside in Minnesota, even in the middle of winter. I did not realize the manual clean range didn't have the roller racks until I got it, but the racks slide easily enough. I am a little dissapointed in the spacing of the racks though. On our old range you would put the rack on the slightly raised edges of the oven bottom which kept it slightly off the oven floor. That was called the roasting position. I wonder if I could just put the bottom rack on the raised section on the bottom of the oven. Trevor? I love the burners. I love the wok grate. The oven heats very fast. My thoughts on the manual, cheap, cheap, cheap, for such an expensive range. The manual from our F&P dish drawer is much better produced.

Thank you Caddidaddy55. I gather despite the problem with the spacing of the racks you don't have major regrets about your purchase.

The burners and wok grate seem to be just what we want - I'm still concerned about baking but perhaps that is not a problem - don't need/want a very low position for that.

Thank you again - this forum is so helpful. I would not have known that the Culi was an option without you all.

Yes, no regrets, I wwould buy it again in a heartbeat.

Would I get it again? After this Thanksgiving, I'm not sure I would.

The oven is wonderfully wide (full sheet no problem) and sadly, sadly short. Once the turkey went in (it was a small one) that was it. Ordinarily there should have been room for a second rack above or below this tiny bird, but there wasn't.

Why wouldn't I get a Bluestar? In retrospect, I notice that none of Trevor's stats compare the bluestar burner to the Culinarian. From that i draw an inference that it's as good or better. I haven't looked at the BS in awhile, but i seem to recall their broiler is recessed (so more space right there), and none of this rack position silliness. The only knock (a big one) is the worrisome external heat on the Bluestar door.

Honestly, what actually concerns me at this point isn't the oven so much as Capital's complete silence. If not for Trevor, we really wouldn't know a damn thing about this company and its products/issues. I'm less and less confident that this is a company that will stand behind its products for the long haul.

"I notice that none of Trevor's stats compare the bluestar burner to the Culinarian."

Only because BS sent Trevor a very nasty lawyer's letter telling him not to. A few months ago there were plenty of comparisons on Trevor's site. I though the differences between BS and CC were fairly slim (beats me why BS had to get lawyers involved). The key point is that sealed burners were clearly inferior to both BS and CC.

"worrisome external heat on the Bluestar door"

I think that is overstated. They issued a new door which reduced the problem considerably. There are a couple of places that still get pretty hot, but I don't see a line of people suing BS for getting burned.

"I'm less and less confident that this is a company that will stand behind its products for the long haul."

And here we make a wild leap from reasonable questions to unsubstantiated nonsense...

Only because BS sent Trevor a very nasty lawyer's letter telling him not to.

Swimmie is correct, there has never been a direct comparison of BS burners to the CC burners on his website and that has been for the past 18 months. For example, the boil pattern. I believe that letter was a relatively recent event.

Beyond that I am not making any qualitative statements comparing the two.

BTW, unless you have a copy of that letter I wouldn't make too many assumptions about it's contents.

-Stooxie

I've had a couple of face-to-face conversations with Trevor and if memory serves me right, he still thought/thinks highly of BS. If he could, he'd sell both BS and CC. He's smart enough to not burn any bridges. I believe he's still hoping to be able to sell both some day. At least that's the impression I got. As far as I know, Trevor as always asserted that open burners are better than sealed burners. That's always been the focus of his tests and comparisons, whether it was BS against sealed burners or CC against sealed burners. I totally agree, open burners are far superior to sealed burners.

I just sent the letter to Stooxie I am sure he will come back and confirm I was threatened / Bullied into to take the test data down. He will realize someday soon that I don't lie where as other do.....Ask me a questions you get the truth be it in the favor of CC or BS I tell the truth.

Would I sell BS again of course, I am not stupid. Did I want to fight BS about the test data yes I did but again I am not stupid, Going up against a partner of James Day the largest law firm is in the world would be very expensive. Once the recent issue with the Test data was settled BS again offered to buy Eurostoves and have me come to work for them. So I had 4 options.
1) Give in to demands (tick)
2) Sell to BS
3) Fight and go bankrupt
4) Carry on as I am with out test data. (tick)

Boil patten of the bluestar and CC is the same they are both open burners.

The boil test was up comparing boil times for 18 months, i guess you missed that.

I understand BS has a range been tested with Consumer reports so time will tell.

jscout is right my testing of BS or CC was to show that open burners are better than sealed burners.

Bluestar have never once posted on the site, the CEO, Head engineer have posted.........

the difference between the BS and CC From the bottom rack to the roof of the BS and the glass of the CC is 1/2" if i recall correctly, i doubt 1/2" would make any difference to what you can fit about a turkey.

The BS door is hooter than the CC door end of story.

Capital within 1 year of the national launch (1st Nov 2010) corrected the burners due to customer feedback, changed the rack settings due to customer feed back, improved the grate fitting due to customer feed back not bad for a company that "will stand behind its products for the long haul."

The manual clean racks do not have a problem anymore if in fact it was a problem in the first place. 1 customer mentioned this issue i took it to capital and they willing IMPROVED the rack settings.......

I was specifically agreeing with Swimmie in that I never saw a video that directly compared the burner heads and boil pattern (not boil times) between Bluestar and CC. Both were compared to, I think, Wolf and DCS or Dacor.

You certainly did compare boil times and other "stats" that were there from the time you started selling the CC. I should have been clearer.

-Stooxie

Throwing on my asbestos suit (this may get hotter than a CC burner on full blast)....

>Why wouldn't I get a Bluestar? In retrospect, I notice that none of Trevor's stats compare the bluestar burner to the Culinarian. From that i draw an inference that it's as good or better. I haven't looked at the BS in awhile, but i seem to recall their broiler is recessed (so more space right there), and none of this rack position silliness. The only knock (a big one) is the worrisome external heat on the Bluestar door.

Not correct, the CC's burners are marginally superior in high heat cooking, just as the BS is superior in simmering, but probably not enough to make a difference inthe real world on either count. I would bet that most of the high heat advantage would be because of the CC's 1/2" smaller burner diameter, and it's 1000BTU advantage. And yes, the broiler is recessed in a BS and general opinion is that the BS has better rack positioning.

>Ask me a questions you get the truth be it in the favor of CC or BS I tell the truth.

No, I do not think you lie, but sometimes the truth has to be coerced from you a wee bit. I remember the days that whenever someone said anything negative about BS you (Trevor) would jump right in here and prove them wrong, which you no longer do. An example would be when it was incorrectly stated that a BS burner is 8" in diameter. Before the CC you would have been all over that, and now days you would be all over it if someone incorrectly stated that about the CC. That being said, I do not expect you to jump in here to defend BS anymore(you are a good salesman and it is not in your best interest), but you are very far from being impartial with your posts on here.

I also had to pretty much pull it out of you to admit that the Bluestar is technically superior to the CC in the simmer dept, at least when equipped with the simmer burner. On that subject, I remember you mentioning somewhere how you switched from all-clad style pots and pans to a different brand with a thicker bottom(but thin sides....traditional disk style pots) as it deals with the heat better. I actually did a bit of a test myself. I simmered 1/2 cup of basmati rice in my tri-ply (Calphalon) and it was done to perfection in about 12 minutes. I did the same thing in some Emerilware (substantial thick disk bottom) the rice was still soaking wet after 12 minutes. The simmer at its lowest setting was too low for that pot. Its too bad you can not post experiments any longer cause I would like to see a simmer rematch using all clad or tri ply. I will bring mine if you want? Also, even tho the BS still came in with a lower temp than the CC in your simmer tests, I would like to calibrate your BS simmer burner cause the flame looked substantially larger than the flame on mine. I do not recall anyone ever posting simmer problems with a BS, but have seen the occasional post with CC.

>Would I sell BS again of course, I am not stupid. Did I want to fight BS about the test data yes I did but again I am not stupid

No you are definitely not stupid Trevor. You are a very intelligent man, and a super salesman. You also have integrity, seem honest and have passion.

>I understand BS has a range been tested with Consumer reports so time will tell.

Time will tell what?

>the difference between the BS and CC From the bottom rack to the roof of the BS and the glass of the CC is 1/2" if i recall correctly,

If you recall? That doesn't sound too certain. I would double check that. I am not saying you are wrong, but the oven on the 48" CC I saw in person looked way smaller than the BS. If it is only 1/2 shorter that's fine but the BS would also be significantly wider. Oven capacity, the Bluestar is the clear winner. I never recall a poster coming on here and complaining about the oven capacity of a BS.

>The BS door is hooter than the CC door end of story.

Hey, are you knocking my favorite restaurant?!?!? LOL..just kidding....BS door is hotter, and oven capacity is larger, end of story.

>Capital within 1 year of the national launch (1st Nov 2010) corrected the burners due to customer feedback, changed the rack settings due to customer feed back, improved the grate fitting due to customer feed back not bad for a company that "will stand behind its products for the long haul."

I agree that some of these are admirable, but that is not "the long haul", however I wouldn't want to make any long haul bets on anything other than our world is going to be a crappier place :) If I was to guess on long haul stability I would maybe think Wolf/Sub Zero but even that I wouldn't want to count on. Not that I think Capital (the company), is going anywhere soon, but I would bet that Surjit will not be there for the long haul. That may be a good thing, or it may be a bad thing.

I would agree that the BS and CC are two of the best ranges available. What I do not agree with is how some can come out and say the CC is number one and the BS is number two. They are simply different. When the CC first came around I did ponder selling the BS and buying the CC, but it turned out to be a second rate range for me. Why was it second rate to me? Well mainly:

1) the smaller oven capacity,
2) cleaning under the range would be challenging because of lack of open legs.
3) I didn't like the stainless collars around the CC burners
4) I just could not get into the looks of the CC, which is apparently more important to me than it is for many others on this board.

The fact that the CC is slighter better on paper at high heat and the BS is slightly better on paper at low heat wasn't really an issue as they are so close. I really really like the rotisserie option on the CC however.

Although I am not saying this is an advantage to everyone, but the BS is the closest range currently on the market to a commercial range. I say this taking into account

1) The burners are very very similar to Garlands with the 24k burners, in fact they look nearly identical.
2) Solid cast iron cooktop
3) Offers commercial options such as a french top or salamander
4) Large oven capacity trumps outside temp issues.
5) Looks like a commercial range

One more thing I should mention. My second choice to a BS when I bought in 2008 was a Capital Precision. I loved the rotisserie option, and in my neck of the woods, I could purchase it for a lot less than I could get the BS for at the time. But alas, the reason I sold my Viking and wanted a BS was for the burners, I really really wanted a serious burner this time around. I also was not into the looks of the Capital back then either, but I tried very hard to not make that into an issue in my mind.

"Swimmie is correct, there has never been a direct comparison of BS burners to the CC burners on his website"

I saw several videos made by Trevor comparing BS and CC burners to others in a variety of tests (cooking rice, melting chocolate, disc of paper, boiling water bubble pattern). They were available on YouTube a few months ago. They were taken down after "the letter".

"unless you have a copy of that letter I wouldn't make too many assumptions about it's contents."

OK, now you have a copy of the letter. Please answer this simple question: has Trevor been telling the truth about it - yes or no?

" If not for Trevor, we really wouldn't know a damn thing about this company and its products/issues. I'm less and less confident that this is a company that will stand behind its products for the long haul."

Surjit Kalsi has posted on this forum many times offering personal assistance to owners with issues. What other CEO of an appliance manufacturing firm does that? Also, the height of the oven cavity? Was that concealed from you at the time of purchase? Were you told one thing and then delivered another? If so, it seems you might have a case, but other than that, the size of the oven is a "due diligence" issue for the purchaser and should be confirmed to be satisfactory prior to sale. There is simply no way for a manufacturer to remedy something like that after sale, short of simply allowing the range to be returned. How long is the guarantee on the CC and is there a satisfaction clause allowing you to return a range you are not happy with? Have you explored simply getting a refund and getting something you really want?

This forum has been a great help. I don't have a CC or a BS and thanks to this forum I never will. I am astonished that the customers on this forum that buy these high-end, supposedly gourmet appliances put up with the arrogant poop that these companies dish out. Are you nuts?? Overpriced, poorly designed and manufactured products, awful service and endless excuses. Makes my 12 year old electric range look better and better.

I truly appreciate what I have learned. It will likely save me a lot of money and hassle.

4) Large oven capacity trumps outside temp issues.

Alot of what tvguy is arguably true or at least arguably true for me except this one.

I took my roaster,pots,and pans to a CC showroom

and the 36" CC oven fit everything I wanted to fit in there.

GWer CecilB purchased two 30" RNBs last month and reports oven door temps of over 200 degrees.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg11140940769.html?9

Intructions still require to grease hinges but hopefully the sticky hinge issue has been resolved.

oregpsnow,

If you research any appliance enough you will find at least a handful of people who hate it.

Below is a thread of someone who hates their 48" Wolf Dual Fuel range.

Here is a link that might be useful: Wolf Range Nightmare

I agree with deeageaux about the oven size. I don't see any practical benefit from an inch on either side, or all the way around for that matter. My CC can fit 5 full size sheets or 10 half sheets. Unless the BS can fit 6 full or 12 half sheets, the extra volume is meaningless. What am I going to do, stick a potato on the side to roast for a snack? I mean seriously. What's with the inferiority complex? It's an appliance, for cryin' out loud.

@oregpsnow - I'm sorry you feel that way. It's really too bad you'll never give these great ranges a chance. I had the opposite reaction to all the info on GW. Thanks to GW, I will NEVER buy any sealed burner range in my lifetime, whether it be Wolf, Viking, or any other brand, including a Capital Precision. I will only consider a BS or CC. I may consider induction, but only if I absolutely cannot have gas or propane.

Dee: the 36" is plenty large, but the 30" and 48" ovens are actually quite small. A 36" doesn't suit my needs and wouldn't look appropriate in my kitchen, I have the little red riding hood syndrome, a 36" is too small, a 60" is too big and a 48" is just right. :) I do believe that Capital was smart and made the 60" with different size ovens which given Capitals smaller interior dimensions is a really good idea. I do wonder however how that would look to the eye. I am very picky with esthetics having been in interior design and I think the oven doors should be either equal in size, or 1/2 size (one door is half the size of the other) or 1/3 size where one door is 1/3 the size of the other. If it fits one of these I think it would look fine, if it doesn't I think it may look a bit wonkey. Oh ya one more note...I have never lubed my hinges on my 2008 RNB and still have original door with the vents only on top of the door. I wonder if the lube actually killed the hinges?

Jscout: you must have a 36" oven as well? I do not believe that a 30" CC would not fit even one full sheet which to ME is very important. Oven size is often not talked about here very often since the CC came around but to some people it is a huge issue. To me it is a massive deal, certainly more important than 1k btu etxra power. Kinda funny how when the BS has an advantage it is some how just swept under the carpet by some (not all) CC fans as "not being important". But CC advantages, no matter how tiny, make it the cut above. They are both amazing appliances and their differences are what makes the consumer lucky as they can choose a fantastic appliance that suits their needs one better than the other.

Oreg: I don't think you are way off base actually. I have often wondered how so many ultra pricey products could have so many defects and that goes for ALL professional ranges including Wolf which I personally regard as the best built.

Mojavean: I also agree with you in the respect that it is no ones fault but his/her own for not looking into such things before plunking down a bunch of cash, however with that being said, I see no reason why if someone made what they feel to be a mistake in their purchase to come online and tell their story so that it may raise the issue in the forefront of future customes minds to make sure they have looked into if the product will really suit their needs.

Anyway, peace to everyone on here. Let's be thankful we live in a country that we can choose such luxurious items.

Wow, you guys are intense! No posts on this thread for 2 months, until I post a subjective "here's how I feel now" comment and kaboom! The thread lights up within minutes! Holy mackerel.

1) On MY culinarian, which is the ONLY one I was commenting on, the distance from bottom rack to broiler is 9 and 1/2 inches. That's short. The distance from top rack to broiler glass is 1 and 5/8 inches. That's too close.

Trevor says some part of the rack design was improved when he went to Capital with a single complaint, so maybe it's all fixed now. All I know is that back in June, Trevor posted: "I agree the top rack position is too high in the manual clean and for some things the second is too low. In the self clean range that problem does not exist." Back in June, Trevor posted: "I agree with you it should be looked at by the factory to what can be done for future customers and if possible a retro fit for existing customers at a cost."

Look, if they've fixed it, that's GREAT. If not, then it's a real problem (and then I'm perplexed by the paeans to Capital's responsiveness). But my oven is what it is, and that's the only oven I'm talking about.

2) Mojavean and others: if you scroll waaay back up this thread to June/July, there's a discussion of how 6+ months ago, it was at least EASIER to be misled/confused about the differences between the manual and self-clean ovens. Culinarian's website was flat-out inaccurate. Trevor's website (not Trevor himself) was simply not as clear as it is today about this topic. (And kudos for making the clarifications.) If it's important to you, the details are in earlier posts. But none of this matters for someone buying today.

3) I'm thrilled to hear Surjit has posted on other threads. I'm thrilled that he's responded to Trevor's calls. All I know is no one at Capital ever bothered to return MY call and email. (And no, they weren't ranting messages.) And the install docs back in June didn't instill much confidence either. (See earlier posts by others.) Hence my PERSONAL questions about the company's responsiveness.

The question by "orcasgramma" in August was whether owners would repeat the purchase. I think I've explained why I have some ambivalence today. I'm not trying to put any of you (and it sounds like Trevor isn't the only one with an investment!) out of business....

TVGUY,

A 30" CC oven does not take a full size commercial sheet.

That is one of the reasons I stepped upto a 36",it does.

To me the 36",48",and 60" CC look good.

The 30" range looks,well,pedestrian. It looks like a GE, Bosch or some other standard range

The center fill-in between the grates looks like an afterthought.When you are spending ~$4,300 you want more than "ok" looks.

The reports(yes,multiple)of oven door temps north of 200 degrees had me leaning to CC. When I found a 36" CC Self-Clean with cranberry knobs delivered for $5,088 I jumped on it.

I have the 48" self-clean range and the large oven does indeed accept full sheets. If the issue is with the 48" manual clean, then I apologize, because that really is an issue.

Tyguy, get your fairy tales straight. You are talking about Goldilocks and the Three Bears.You are corect the 30" CC won't fit a full size baking sheet, but DW just finished baking Christmas cookies and she was really happy with the oven, Its not like we are running a bakery out of our house. Thanksgiving only comes once a year and the turkey is supposed to rest before you cut it, plenty of time to finish up the extras that wouldn't fit. And as Jscout said
@oregpsnow - I'm sorry you feel that way. It's really too bad you'll never give these great ranges a chance. I had the opposite reaction to all the info on GW. Thanks to GW, I will NEVER buy any sealed burner range in my lifetime, whether it be Wolf, Viking, or any other brand, including a Capital Precision. I will only consider a BS or CC. I may consider induction, but only if I absolutely cannot have gas or propane.

Swimmie1,

Thank you for your post. We have purchased the cc manual clean 30 inches but it will be sometime next summer before we have it operating and have experience with it. We included the wok ring and my husband is looking forward to a great experience with range top cooking.

My response to the oven size may be skewed because we live aboard a 36 foot sailboat in the summers and, even after many years, cooking and baking on the 2-burner force 10 gimbaled stove is fun. I suspect the cc oven will be a fine size for us. I'll post again when I have something more than anticipation to report.

Swimmie1.... Retro fit racks are avaialble from the factory, not sure what they cost but it might be worth giving them a call.

Trevor -- now THAT's some news. Thank you for the info. I will try contacting them again.

Mybad. Caddidaddy you definately have a better memory of our childhod fairytales than I :). Doh!, I can't believe I mixed that up.

Jscout? So in a 48" the large oven is actually of greater capacity than a 30" CC? So how small would the small oven be then?

What is the measurement from bottom rack to top of broiler? Swimmie said his was 9.5 inches, and that is pretty darn small, and too small for a big bird I would think? I know when I looked at the 48" CC the ovens appeared much smaller than BS, so much smaller that right there I knew a CC wouldn't be for me. I'd be curious as to what all the dimensions are. Would you be kind enough to supply that info?

Dee: you got a great deal on your CC. The hot exterior temps of the BS are inline with what I was saying, and that is the heritage of a BS is most definately commercial. You can see it in every nook and cranny. That can be good or can be bad, depends on the person. My old school BS (not V1) gets pretty hot in some area's. I have not taken temps, but it gets warm to say the least. I don't know about north of 200 but too hot to keep your hand on for more than a second. Anyone know what UL or CSA standards are for outside temps? Personally I do not care about the outside temps, the handle never gets more than ambiant temps.

My GF likes to maker her tea in a tiny itty bitty teapot that can fall through the CC grates.

So I am getting one of these

I think that will also take care of any potential simmer issues for super-duper-low heat duty; plus get all my burners for full-time duty too.

Dee: that is probably a good idea to get those. And it really isn't a big deal to use one, and you are right you will have all burners for super high heat as well. I don't need one as BS has super low simmer capability as standard equipment and in 3.5 years never once had lack of burners(that is me...not everyone else). Let's not forget that with a BS you can order it with all high output burners if you so choose.

Hey, another thing I like with my simmer burner, is when I make an espresso or americano(my favorite) I usually tip the mug upside down over the burner to bring the mug up to a nice toasty temp. Not sure it could be done on a full size BS or CC burner without one of those gadgets you are looking into buying as it would heat the handle of the mug too much.

I don't know why some C.C. owner hasn't put in a smaller gas orifice for one of the burners and plugged the outer circle of burner holes with J.B. Weld or something.

You could remove the existing orifice, epoxy it closed and then re-drill it to a smaller size. Plug the outer burner holes and you'd be done. A mid sized simmer burner for your C.C.

Alex: I agree. I would be inclined to do just that if I had a CC

I don't know why some C.C. owner hasn't put in a smaller gas orifice for one of the burners and plugged the outer circle of burner holes with J.B. Weld or something.
You could remove the existing orifice, epoxy it closed and then re-drill it to a smaller size. Plug the outer burner holes and you'd be done. A mid sized simmer burner for your C.C.

If you are not a machinist/mechanical engineer seems like there is alot of potential for disaster including creating a carbon monoxide machine.

Natural gas and heat diffuser are cheap. Diffuser is easy to put on and take off.

deeageaux, If your Gf has a really small teapot get the first one, if the pot sits on the flat part of the plate there will be no air gap and the simmer plate will have little to no effect, not sure what effect the hole will have though, at least there won't be a flame coming thru it. My DW heats the water in a tea kettle and then brews in a cup, or a Brown Betty, so no simmer plate needed. I have the second style plate and it is good for keeping things a little below simmer.

tyguy,I was just funnin you, we do have 3 grandkids, so I do suppose we are a Little more current on the fairytales, especially the I didn't do it kind. The oven on the 30" manual clean CC is only about 23.75" wide, the distance from the bottom rack to the broiler slightly more than 9.75". Trevor mentioned that there is a retrofit kit available from the factory for the oven racks, so I need to check that out.

@alexr - That's because it's really not necessary. I adjusted mine lower than the default. Now, it's only an issue if I try to use the stove top espresso maker or a SS measuring cup to melt a tiny amount of butter. And that's only if I'm stupid enough to insist on centering the pot on the burner. The simple solution (common sense) is to offset it. Done, problem solved.

@tyguy - From the top of the bottom rack to the surface of the broiler is 10.75". The smaller oven is tight. In fact, it's the only complaint I have, because I can't fit my half sheets. It's only 12" wide. Fortunately, I do have some 12" sheets. It's also large enough for my skillets for those times when I sear and finish in the oven. I don't have to fire up the big box. Only my largest skillet (12" inside and 13" outside) won't fit. If Capital could find a way to give that side just one more inch, it would be perfect. I took some pictures.

Here's the measurement:

Here's the big oven with the trays (notice the rotisserie bracket to the right of the full sheet is not an issue):

And here's the small oven with my half sheet on the door and my 12" sheet in the oven:

HTH

caddi: I know tone sometimes does not translate well via text, but I kinda figured you were just funin me, all is good.

jscout: Ya, I have about an inch on ya and two inches on swimmie(sorry that kinda sound gross lol), which although an inch can make or break something fitting, in reality it probably won't. So it seems as tho the 30" CC is the worst in terms of oven space. Capital did a good job trying to make the large oven on the 48 and 60 inch fit a commercial sheet. Seems like the racking on yours is better than what I saw in person as well. I am not 100% sure if I saw self clean or manual, but the rack looked to be closer to the top than the 10+ inches that yours is. Maybe I saw what swimmie had which is only 9.5 inches and IMO way too short. Of course the small ovens suffer (particularly on the 48") on the Capital in order to make the large oven fit a full size sheet but I think that is a very good trade off. I do use half sheets in my small oven and really enjoy being able to do so, but if 12" sheets are readily available it makes that short-coming a little less irritating. I also have an enameled cast pot that barely fits into my small oven and therefore would not fit into your small oven, but again not really an enormous issue.

Advantage is still BS, and it appears as tho the advantage gets slimmer with the 36" and 48". The lead widens again with the 60" as I would think that a large amount of people would choose a 60" over a 48" in order to get two full size(fit commercial sheets) ovens (as well as extra burners etc) which the BS gives you but Capital does not.

My point is that certain GW members (and I am not saying you are one of them) claim the CC is the "superior" range which it clearly is not. It is slightly different than BS, plain and simple, end of story (to borrow a certain GW members line). Neither product has anything over the other one that is leaps and bounds better. To quote another GW member (i love this line) claiming superiority on one range over the other is slicing the boloney pretty thin.

The only area one range could claim superiority over the other without cutting it thin, is comparing a feature that is simply not available on the competition, like the rotisserie on the Capital (damn I would love that) but to counter that, the BS has french top and salamander available to those that desire that. Although the french top looks pretty useful, I would prefer the rotisserie over the french top any day, but stooxie LOVES his french top and I would bet take another FT over rotisserie. Now if I was going with a 60" BS (less than 60" I think may look too crowded)I would very seriously consider the salamander (also has griddle on top).

Damn, back to the drawing board, neither range can claim to be superior. Can we all agree to that statement? lol, we should put together a letter of agreement and have all the GW'ers that are in either the CC camp or BS camp to sign it. I have a feeling one member may hold out tho.

Look, I've thought all along that these arguments were stupid. It's like arguing BMW or Mercedes, LV or Gucci, Choo or Blahnik.

I once had a discussion where I brought up what a dumbass I was because I severely sprained my ankle while playing golf. How? By stepping in a gopher hole. So this other guy starts talking about how he hurt is back while doing something stupid. To which a third guy said my mishap was worse. So he comes up with something else. The two went back and forth, while I just sat there. I couldn't believe it. This guy was so competitive he wanted to be a bigger dumbass than me. I just got up and walked away.

I have a saying and this applies to both camps, "The biggest losers are those obsessed with winning."

All I know is that last night I made a fabulous cider-brined roast porkloin with mapled-glazed sweet potatoes in the same oven and I couldn't do that in my old kitchen. I also wok-seared some broccoli rabe in garlic-infused olive oil. Nothing but smiles all around the table.

Caddi,

I am a coffee man and don't drink tea.

But isnt' tea made at a temp of at least 175 degrees?
The CC is supposed to hold 145 degrees.

I want the simmer plate for the teapot so it would not fall into the CC's grate not to simmer tea.

So I would not want an air gap for that application?

I would need the simmer function because some simmer instructions call for temps as low as 120 and if I ever have the need/inclination to "cook" some vegan raw foodist thingie that requires temps no higher than 115 degrees.

Tyguy, "neither range can claim to be superior. Can we all agree to that statement?" I for one do, I have the CC, but if I had the room, that French top would be really cool. People may prefer one over the other based on various features that suit them better, but I think we can all agree that The BlueStar and CC kick butt on any other residential range.
Deeageaux, my wife is the main tea drinker, but from what she tells me you heat the water and pour it over the leaves, you never put the tea in the water while heating it. The Brown Betty is a ceramic pot that you can preheat with hot water, so once you brew the tea in it it stays hot for a long time, no burner required.

My point is that certain GW members (and I am not saying you are one of them) claim the CC is the "superior" range which it clearly is not. It is slightly different than BS, plain and simple, end of story (to borrow a certain GW members line). Neither product has anything over the other one that is leaps and bounds better. To quote another GW member (i love this line) claiming superiority on one range over the other is slicing the boloney pretty thin.

Well said, Tyguy, which is why things can flare up so quickly when someone just has to insist that there is a winner. I've said many times that unless you have a burning need for a rotisserie or French top it pretty much comes down to looks. Both have pros and cons and I love it when people try to rank one of them as #1 without any context of the individual buyer.

Hopefully people start to see that these threads are not just about picking fights on the interwebs. There is reality and then there is people's perception (i.e. their OWN reality) and it should be called out when someone is trying to pass one off as the other.

-Stooxie

caddy:

> "neither range can claim to be superior. Can we all agree to that statement?" I for one do,

I know you do caddy. You are always as impartial as one could be when posting.

> but I think we can all agree that The BlueStar and CC kick butt on any other residential range.

Absolutely! agreed as far as performance goes. However, there are still people that have a need for yet another range like madeline who ended up with a wolf for reasons she feels are important to her.

Stooxie:

> Well said, Tyguy, which is why things can flare up so quickly when someone just has to insist that there is a winner.

I realize that Bluestar is in the crosshairs, as they are the ones that invented the niche (high power open burner) in residential ranges. The CC was invented specifically to go head to head with BS. Both ranges are very close. Some have very slight advantages over the other on paper. But it is bothersome when a member will come on here and try to disprove that advantage. In the real world, these advantages/disadvantages are probably pretty much meaningless. I can admit BS's disadvantages to CC and I can admit its advantages and vise versa. Many members on here are also good at that, but not all, and that is when it gets ugly. :) One thing for sure, we are all appliance geeks.

Sigh...Happy Holidays everyone!

tvguy,

One thing that is easy to gloss over is the fact that before the CC came out, Bluestar owners were furious they were getting little or no support from BS.

Bluestar's long delay (and even worse, SILENCE) on their problems was enough to make me buy a CC.

It's not just a straight comparison of BS and CC products as delivered, it's also the support of CC AND their willingness to have a presence on the internet and publicly communicate with their customers.

Both products may be fine but I want to see that someone at the company is responsive to problems and issues that arise.

Billy

Billy: where the heck did this come from?

BS's hit and miss customer service was well documented and not really disputed much on here. I for one have publically credited this forum and to a very large degree the CC giving BS the kick in the butt they needed. Fast forward to current times, and I would say based on comments on this forum BS is actually doing a much better job of CS that Capital. There have been numerous people claiming emails and phone calls ignored. Trevor even stepped in at least a couple of times. In one instance the CEO of Capital came on here and ripped a customer a new a-hole. In the past 8 months to year, I am not sure I have recalled a single complaint on BS service.

Hi tvguy,

Maybe it was too many holiday drinks last night -- I didn't intend to come off as aggressive.

The point I was trying to make is that people often make decisions based on customer service at the time they placed their order. BS's unresponsiveness drove a lot of people toward CC during that period of time, even if BS has better customer service now, assuming it does.

My other point is that BS should not be afraid to communicate via internet forums. Savvy consumers respect this (and some demand it). It could only help them if they do it right.

Billy

Billy: I agree 110% with what you are saying. I would bet that BS lost most of their sales to the CC due to a poor track record in customer service. That is capitalism at its best. Capital saw the void and filled it. BS then has to follow suit and maybe even surpass them in order to win consumer confidence back. I wouldn't be so sure Capital would have been any different if the shoes were reversed.

I have seen electrolux, sears, and capital post on this forum to address issues, and have often wondered why BS chose not to go down the same road. However, of the three companies I mentioned, capital is the only one to have essentially given the customer crap publically. I think that poster had some very legitimate issues and the road capital took was very inappropriate. I would rather the company NOT post on here unless they consistantly do it with tact and professionalism. I would have to say that that post by the ceo of capital was probably the single most off putting thing I have witnessed from any of the companies involved on this forum.

I cringed when I read Mr. Kalsi's over-the-top post too. But you know what? I'm sure someone ripped him a new one in return right afterwards, because his tone has since been very different. Sadly it wasn't even over a product defect, like in the case of BS. It was over fulfillment, something they could have easily and tactfully resolved. I hope they made right for that customer.

The BS fiasco was one of the major reasons I bought a CC. The fit and finish, rotisserie and self-clean were also high too. In hindsight, I'm glad everything happened the way it did. If not, I might never have bought such a great range. If I ever had to buy another range again, I'd definitely re-evaluate the BS against the CC. But it would be an uphill battle for BS.

Can someone point me to Mr. Kalsi's post? I didn't see it. When I met him he was very charming and spent a lot of time with me.

I also was set on a BS until the CC came out. I am very happy with it (a 48 inch rangetop). The only thing I would change is to have cast iron bowls everywhere under the burners. It is kind of silly to have an exposed stainless "shelf" under the burners that catches stuff (and must be cleaned) instead letting it fall to the pullout trays. But otherwise the look, fit, finish, and performance are great!

Billy

Here you go. But I stand corrected. I reread some of the post and there was a defect involved. There were a few things going on here with this customer and the Capital wall oven. The fulfillment issue was just one.

Here is a link that might be useful: Previous thread

I have not lurked or posted in many many months. Slow day at work so I thought I would take a peek. Same lively conversations taking place I see!

I was suprised to see this thread still alive although it appears to have gone completel OT. So I don't mind going in a different direction.

My extremely brief 1 year report:

I have owned a 30" CC for one year now. I can say I am as happy with it now as I was on day one, and that is to say I am very happy. Wok cooking is a blast, and the CC with wok grate kicks butt. In general, stove top cooking is fantastic. Only one complaint - low level simmer is higher than I'd like. I agree with Diego, the 30" center grate is not great looking (but no big deal, and the 30" was definitely the better choice for me). I have underutilized the rotiserrie - works well but with a chicken I find the skin starts getting too crisp before the insides are done - I have finished with the rotiserrie off and the oven on. Back on topic the rolling racks are OK. I have rolled them with a 20# bird without issue. They could roll better though. I do not bake much, but the oven has served me very well. The range looks great and cleans up relatively easy. I would buy another CC in a heartbeat, but I shouldn't need to make that decision for many years. I would also have no hesitation buying a product from Trevor again - he provided better post-purchase support to me than anyone else for anything I have ever bought.

And although I'm sure I made the right choice for me, I'm also sure I would have been tickled with a BS had I gone that direction.

Happy holidays everyone.

Jon

Jon... Give me a call sometime and we can go over the rotisserie, an underutilized rotisserie is a crime against culinary arts ....LOL :)

Speaking of rotisseries, I used it to make a Porchetta for Christmas. I know I'm going to sound like a fanboy, but I can say this with confidence. There are no residential ranges on the market that could do this better than a CC self-clean. Why? Because with a CC, I can use three cooking methods to create the perfect Porchetta. I took a side pork belly, prepped, seasoned, rolled and tied it up. I first wrapped it in foil and "braised" it for 3-3.5 hours. Then I removed the foil and roasted it for another 2 hours. Finally I broiled it on the rotisserie for about 20 minutes to create the crispiest skin while the meat inside was melt-in-your-mouth succulent. Here's a picture of the finished product.