builder is looking for more $$ to cover price increases
logastellus
10 years ago
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rrah
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10 years agolast modified: 9 years agoRelated Discussions
Builder Prices Versus On-Line Prices For 'Stuff'
Comments (10)we wern't impressed by our builder "discounts". I would definately shop around. In some cases we went with the builder supplier (e.g. lighting, cabinets) but in other cases we found a better local supplier and now the builder has switched over to them (e.g.granite). In some cases we purchased items on line and gave them to the builder (e.g. sinks). In the case of the lighting, we did not get the absolute best price on the fixtures (although the prices were good and dicounted off suggested retail) BUT we did get a "free" design and that was well worth the small premium on the fixtures. We could have saved a few dollars by puchasing the same lights on-line but we did have some broken fixtures on delivery (replaced quickly) and the lighting in our house is fantastic. There is something to be said for having a local supplier who can quickly get you parts or replace an item if there are problems. But you have to weigh that against what you are getting locally and any savings you can get on line. For example, we purchased our faucets locally using the builder's plumbing supplier but we bought the stainless steel sinks on line. The markup on SS was unbelievable (2 grand for a Kohler kitchen sink with the "discount" - are they nuts!). I think we paid 1 grand for 4 SS sinks - 16 gauage - they are awesome and we got that tip from GW. So Scrutinize every line item and do not assume that every item on the list is at the best discount you can get. Toilets were another one - we bought Toto's on-line and got a very good deal. The appliance purchase was amazing. Builder told us that his guy had the very best prices. BS - we saved over 4 grand by buying appliances from a local store who has been around for decades and their price included installation!. Plus we got 0% financing on the stuff which we just finished paying off - nice to have that off the mortgage. I don't think I would buy appliances on-line - research that approach and definately don't be affraid to check local stores and tell them the best prices you can get on line - see if they will at least match it or throw in installation. Shop til you drop. Its your money that they want to take. PS - assume that EVERY builder "allowance" is crap - pulled out of the air. Validate every allowance against actual bids from suppliers for items that are at the quality level you expect. Hopefully you can do this before you sign the contract. If we had only budgeted what our builder "allowed", we would have no lights and probably have plywood for countertops....See MoreBuilders, pricing, contracts - what do you all think?
Comments (28)Mightyanvil, Thank you for the contract breakdowns, I really appreciate that. That is definately part of what I was looking for, ways to create a win/win for us and our eventual builder. We have someone we are interested in using but have not talked specific contracts yet. There seems to be some perception that 1. I am not interested in quality and 2. that I don't realize the potential costs of quality and the unforseen. I appreciate that you are trying to warn me -thanks. I do understand these things and am trying to be prepared for them. What I was trying to get at is that somewhere out there there is a good contractor who will look at a project and take into account our site, our materials choices, our plan, etc. and come up with a bid or projected budget and a price to build our home based on all those things plus whatever he/she needs to make it work, do the job and continue to run a business successfully. Fine with that. There is also someone out there who will do all the same things and will take opportunities to increase the profit he/she takes from the job without offering any additional quality or service to the owners. My whole point is that from my point of view the second scenario is not okay with me and I was wondering what others had done and how they felt about their experiences. I would like to guard against scenario #2 if I possibly can. I know if I choose more expensive materials I will also have to increase the labor portion because it will take more skill from the tradesperson required to do the job. We do want a well built home and know that we will have to make choices and potentially sacrifices to get the things that matter most to us. When I was projecting our budget I took the averages from about 5 different sources of information and then depending on my ability to verify how that would apply to the home we are building I would either use the highest number if I didn't know or the amount that seemed to fit best with our project. There were some items that I was able to verify by actually going out and getting real numbers others by saying 'we are building a home next year it will be (description)if I am looking for 'x' and I budget 'y' is that reasonable? In the 'unknown' areas I spoke to a friend who owns his own concrete flatwork company, he has built several of his own homes. One of his sites was in our neighborhood and similar to ours, so in my basic labor and materials budget I took the amount he paid for excavation and tripled it for safety. I compared that to the prices others have paid in 'hairy situations' and my number was always the highest. We have already dug some on the property as we put in the septic and the excavator at that time did not feel we would have a problem *from what he could see and had experienced on our site* digging the hole for the house. I took the highest foundation cost and added 50%. We have city water, septic is in and we have electrical ready to go. This home will replace a manufactured home so our permits are inexpensive-about 1/3 of what it would be otherwise. When I got my budget together I looked at the overall total and added 10% to the entire thing. I did find that some numbers varied more than others and were harder to pin down. Other times the same number kept popping up so I felt I must be close and the 10% on top of that should cover it. I actually showed this budget and the plan to the builder we are considering and she gave me the feedback that most of my numbers are 'conservative'- in her terms which meant 'high' and we should be fine. Even if our budget goes over another 10% from that we are ok -including the fee amounts she quoted us for her services. At the time the plan we had been considering was built as a spec house nearby and we had gone through it several times. When I contacted the builder I explained that we really liked his house and were considering building that home ourselves. We shared with him information about our property and our time frame and we talked about the finishes in the house and the different things he was including. When he gave me the price for the home as built but on our site it was about 16% higher than our highest number and it did not include everything. Based on comments some have made, maybe it was still a 'fair' number but then again maybe not...in our county you can look up valuations on permits and the price he quoted for house only was $100k over that amount and it was $200k over what he told the county his cost was. In talking with my concrete contractor friend who has built his own homes he told me that builders usually underestimate their expenses for the county but that the county gets very close and they include approximately a 10% 'contractor markup' in their valuation. Enter builder #3, nice guy, only builds turnkey, fixed price. Not sure why he was interested in us as we were very up front that we did not think we would go that way. He was trying to convince us why we should I think. He was very helpful and actually wanted to see our site. He has just finished carving half a hillside out for a huge custom home which we toured so he knows about 'hairy excavation' and he looked at our site and said it was about average for our area and he didn't see a problem. Famous last words I know... anyway he ballparked a price about 10% less than the higher guy and about 9% above our 'cost plus' budget. This makes sense as he does need that 'coverage' in there, but...we had already added that to our numbers so...either we are still way off or...make of it all what you will. The highest number is out of our budget, the middle number is doable and the low number means new furniture, nice landscape etc. Guess which one I am planning on? Guess which one I am HOPING for?! :) So perhaps some will say this all bears no relevance to an actual project and maybe it doesn't. I am not trying to control every aspect, just educate myself and be prepard so that hopefully we make a good choice when we do finally sign that contract. I just wanted to know what everyone else was thinking about builders, pricing and contracts and how to best go about building a home for a 'fair' price. We are committed to building a house, it will be interesting to see what it will actually cost. Thanks all....See MorePool builder says automatic cover is not worth the cost.
Comments (18)Ponz, Interesting quandary! We are going through the same decision right now. We are planning a pool house and pool. Our issue is not related to the budget, but the design limits of a pool fit for a cover. We absolutely want to have a slide (tacky as they may look) BTW - you should look at SR Smith - their turbo twister looks awesome. Lucky for us we can tuck the slide at the back of the yard close to the block wall where it won't be the focal point of the pool. Also, if we were limited to a rectangle shape, the pool would have to be about 25% smaller. With this in mind, we could sacrifice the Baja shelf and spa, but we want it all (of course). I have asked a lot of people about the cover. I have a sister plus several close friends that have the cover. All of the people with a cover are happy with the cover and try to talk me into putting one in, however, everyone who I've talked to that have a pool without a cover love their pool. I have also asked people who were going to put the cover on and decided not to if they regret not putting a cover on - the answer was no. What does this tell me - everybody loves their pool. Good news considering the size of investment. Some things I have considered: *The tile located under the cover (where it is rolled up when fully retracted) always seem to turn a lovely shade of slime. This has happened after a few years with each pool I've seen. What this says to me is - maintenance! It kind of grosses DH and I out - I know I would be under there with a kitchen brush on a regular basis. *After a year or two the cover ends up looking really bad. My sister's is 5 years old - which is probably the average life of a cover - and it is faded and stained where water puddles on it. Again, you can probably scrub the puddle stains off - but again - maintenance. *This may be a Las Vegas thing only, but when the pool cover is on in the summer, and you open up the pool, some spots in the pool are so hot that it is unbearable to get in. We have actually added cool water to the pool to make it swimable. *Replacement cost. It is a hard number to believe, but my sister keeps throwing out $5k as the replacement cost for her cover and says it will need to be replaced every 5-7 years. Now I know I am probably going to stir a little reaction with this post from the cover lovers. I am not totally against them; I just think there are positives and negatives. The main reason I considered the cover is for the safety issues. I have resisted getting a pool until now (my 4 children are 4-12 yrs) because drowning risk scares me to death. DH and I do not feel comfortable that a fence can prevent a drowning. We are now pretty sure we will get a pool safety net. There is a time commitment involved, but the 100% safety rating is the piece of mind I am looking for. We have absolutely decided that safety is non-negotiable, so the net will be on each day after swimming and during all breaks from swimming if a non-swimmer is in the vicinity. We made our final decision based on the feedback that we received from friends without an auto cover, personal observation, and input from kids. Nieces that are in teens wish they had a more exciting pool, always seem to be at other friends pools with slides, diving boards, spas, etc. Son practically begged us not to get a rectangle pool. On a different subject, how much do you think you will spend on the pool house? We need one as the closest bathroom in the house is through the kitchen and down the hall (all over wood floors). Also, hate the look of pool equipment in a tuff shed or scattered all over the deck. As mentioned before, land is at a premium, we can only eek out about 8'X11' for the pool house. I'm curious if you have received a price for yours and how large you are planning. Good luck with all your decisions! Kim...See MoreJust got a 25% increase change order from builder...
Comments (7)Some of his charges were legitamate. We had asked for certain upgrades months ago, and he kept putting us off with costs. Then he shocked us with it the day they poured concrete in the foundation. WINDOWS: We asked for Fiberglass windows instead of vinyl. ($3K increase) KITCHEN: We upgraded cabinets (from a Kraftmaid level 5 to a level 8), and I chose granite from his provider. He indicated that we went over allowance even though I chose from what I was told to choose from and size of kitchen has not changed from date of contract. He had provided an allowance for appliances, but when I tried to get them from the guy he suggested, his guy didn't want to deal with our level of appliances --we're getting a Kenmore range, not Thermador. So he told me to get appliances on my own, and he would credit the $8K allowance. Well, that allowance was sucked up by "other" kitchen expenses, and we still need to purchase appliances on our own. This amounted to a $4K price INCREASE. FOUNDATION: He upped the total almost $5K for additional foundation digging and porch support beam because of new hurricane requirements (I live in the northern Virginia) MISC OTHER STUFF: He has wierd stuff we can't figure out, like 150 sqft of drywall for an area less than 60 sqft (when we brought this to his attention, he said that they might need extra. More than twice the amount?); a plumber, electrician, AND a carpenter will be installing our disposal, dishwasher, refrigerator, and range. When I brought this up, he said all these people needed to help with installation. We are being charge EXTRA for installation because we also have a different expense line for the plumber and electrician with allowances (which I guessed would have included stuff like making an outlet for the stove and disposal, etc.). MORE TO COME: He let us know that the roofer will need to put on more roofing (he priced out roofing for just the addition, but he said last night that he knew the roofer would have to roof over some of the old part of house too). This was NOT included in his 20% increase! He also gave us allowances for electrician and plumber, but he let us know yesterday that they would probably not be enough to cover the actual costs. This amount is is also NOT included in his 20% increase. I am at a loss. We did not sign the change order last night. When we left and he said something about ordering the cabinets and windows, I told him I would not order anything if I were him. We checked him out with the Better Business Bureau and he looked like he had a great reputation with national builder organizations. He has won several National Association of the Remodeling Industry (NARI) awards -- I thought we had done our homework. We have a retired contractor coming to look at the change orders and the blueprints tomorrow. Plus, my dad just passed the bar last year and said he would look over the contract. I just didn't want it to come to this --- ahhhhhh!...See Morelogastellus
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