To better help you, can you put the following in order of higher to lower priority:
- ease of cleaning
- stove top cooking
- baking
- style/look/finish
- color selection
- total kitchen (one brand for all appliances)
- price (also list your budget if you like)

Then order the type stovetop cooking by most frequent to least:
- stir fry
- saute
- boiling water (pasta, veggies, etc.)
- indoor grilling
- confection (chocolate or candy)

Finally, what do you bake order from most to least often:
- pastries
- bread
- cookies
- tv dinners/etc.

I think if you do an honest assessment of these factors, you might just know the answer already. If not, this will provide some basic information so you get the best advice.

We have a DCS 36" 6 burner all gas range & love it. Powerful sealed burners (17,500 BTU on 4 burners), separate simmer elements (all 6 burners), infrared broiler, rolling oven racks, and capable of holding full sheet pans.

Of the five you've listed, none are bad choices. I'd cook on any of them quite happily.

I wouldn't go back to the "bankrupt" dealer -- something is bankrupt there, but I believe its more related to morality than finance.

All five of those pieces will get hot and simmer adequately. Priorities will help you narrow it down. All will be a compromise on one thing or another. For me, I took rangetop performance over looks and real-estate-agent name-brand appeal.

Annie,

What Amcook says is excellent advice, my whole kitchen was chosen around how and what I cook.

With that being said I think you have answered some of your own questions if you canÂt find certain manufactures is your areas showroom than stay away from them, repairs and parts Âcould become an issue.

Example, I know someone who outfitted their home with all La Cornue cooking appliances, one day the oven didnÂt work, repair person found the problem, parts had to be shipped from Europe, first one came and repair person broke it installing it, than they need to get another part from Europe, for some reason customs got suspicious about package, held up again  Final answer almost 2 months no ovens.

I understand getting parts form the west to east coast is a different story but there are enough selections out there why no pick one that you have in front of you. (I like American ranges, btw, but if I my area reps didnÂt sell one I wouldnÂt buy it.)

Four years ago Thermador had a very sketchy record with service managers; most that I spoke to thought they were maintenance hogs. It would be best if you talked to your local service managers and ask them about reliability issues with the stoves.

Good Luck

Annie,

#1 Sealed burners are marketing hype imho, you usually sacrifice btus to have them I have a wolf and have never had a problem cleaning them.

#2 Grills, there are two types out there 1 is like a basic outdoor BBQ grill, a gas pipe with lots of holes for flames that heats the grill plate. They are hard to clean because they dont get very hot and are nothing more than a glorified marking grill. The second type is an infrared ceramic heating element. The wolf has this, they get HOT and actually sear your steak. I have a smoking box with mine and use wood chips to create a 99% realistic grilled over wood taste (NOTE: you will need a strong exhaust fan / hood that vents outside to do this. Mine is custom built and very similar to my restaurant ones.)

The infrared grills are very easy to clean here are the instructions

#1 Turn on high for 10-15 minutes
#2 Brush off dust grill brush.

I use mine 5-6 times a week and do a full breakdown and cleaning only twice a year.

The grill was a main consideration for me, live Pacific NW and we have limited outdoor opportunities to grill and I am a grilling fanatic.

Good luck,

PS So I dont get labeled as a shill for Wolf, my Wolf was bought 4 years ago, I have been watching their newer stuff and it looks like subzero is marketing towards being more home-maker friendly with lots of frills. I do no know if they are keeping their quality. So caveat emptor, my two back up-choices ignoring the grill issue would be BlueStar due to reputation and higher BTU burners and American.

It looks like you've already gotten some good advice. I'd second hotchpotch's point on sealed vs open. My kitchen was remodeled by the previous owner who was elderly and didn't cook. She didn't even have a hood. That left me with pretty much dumping the relatively new cabinets or working with a drop-in configuration (which sucks). For better or worse, we chose to work with what we had since we couldn't deal with an extra month of construction. That was 10 years ago and back then sealed was it for drop-in. In fact most drop-in's back then were electric which I can use but really dislike. So, we put in a sealed 6 burner Viking and spent the next 9 years complaining about it. :)

Now I've got open burners with the Bluestar drop-in and it's like using a commercial range again.. almost. I would have preferred the full range but, I've made it fit my needs with a couple of mods.. mainly for wok cooking.

So, from first hand experience, I can say I prefer cleaning my open burner cooktop over the sealed. Bold statement but I'll explain. Sealed burner cooking surfaces have the stainless right up against the burners. To me this design is flawed because it puts a delicate finish surface right under the flame where it gets hot and splatters will bake on. We cleaned ours nightly and still got some pretty stubborn stains baked on. Can't take a scouring pad to it because that would scratch the stainless finish. With the open burners, the area surrounding the burner is a ceramic coated metal bowl. Pop those out and stick them in the dishwasher once a week or even just once a month and you're good. The stainless part rarely gets any baked on splatter so a damp sponge is all it takes to clean it up. The range is a bit different. I believe the "bowl" part is cast iron so no dishwasher but a simple rinse and wipe will probably take care of it. Plus the range doesn't have stainless on the top surface which is a very good thing when it comes to cleaning.

Spill overs.. When we bought our orig cooktop, the sales guy kept saying major spillovers don't get underneath with sealed burners. True.. but what he didn't say was that with a major spill, the liquid pools on the surface and can either bake on, or maybe worse, get into the ignitors which can cause either constant clicking or no spark. Also found out the hard way that when this happens, it can wear out the spark module faster. I've had one major spill with my Bluestar and yes, it required me to take off the burners and lift the top but once clean, that was that. No problems with ignition. With the range, there's a tray to pull out so it's even easier.

Now to your specific requirements. Braising and roasting doesn't really require anything special but a low simmer would be good. Saute needs reasonably high fast heat and frankly, I'd prefer never to saute with a sealed burner ever again. I think more than raw BTU heat distribution is key in saute. You want the heat to be focused in the center.. basically you want a column of even intense heat. sealed burners just don't give you that. It gives you a cylinder where the heat is distributed in a ring around the edge and the center is relatively cool. Not good.

For boiling pasta and water.. well anything will do but with sealed burners, you'll need to use larger diameter pots to capture the heat.

For grilling, I don't have much to say. I'm in CA and I'm able to grill outdoors 99.999% of the time. :)

It doesn't sound like oven cooking is a huge priority so go with all gas to save some money. I think that points you to Wolf or Bluestar. If you go with Wolf, it might be worth looking for a used or older model. I've read that their new "open burners" are not really that open (meaning less airflow). If so, make sure you take a look at one before buying.

hotchpotch has some good points, and if I grilled indoors at all, I probably would have gone with a 4-burner and grill, with a top-make 1200 CFM hood. In-oven broilers are great for browning the top of a potato au gratin, but leave a lot to be desired for grilling a 21-day aged strip steak.

I would take the time to look at the videos that Trevor has up on cleaning open burners (aluminum foil in the drip tray takes it from easy to trivial, in my mind), as well as finding out what he has to say about the top grill. I almost bought an American, but was swayed by the superior performance of the BlueStar burners. I'd probably be happy cooking on either. I can't comment on either brand's grilling performance (or the Wolf's for that matter), as I haven't touched either one in a meaningful way.

TO: Amcook and Sfjeff

I apologize for our first go around and my arrogant snaky post.

Both of your posts are great and I really appreciate the links to the Bluestar stove vidoes, I LOVE being educated and they showed me a lot.

Looking at the grill videos (which is obviously a very important point to me) the blue star has a very un-impressive grill, similar to the Viking. However if this is not a concern to you it should in no way dissuade you from this stove.

>>>In-oven broilers are great for browning the top of a potato au gratin, but leave a lot to be desired for grilling a 21-day aged strip steak.

LMAO I got into a heated debate about this when I called them "glorified cheese-melters" on another board. I am glad to see that someone agrees with me.

>>>In-oven broilers are great for browning the top of a potato au gratin, but leave a lot to be desired for grilling a 21-day aged strip steak.

I moved from socal to the NW so it made a big deal for me when we moved. In CA my wolf didnt have a grill because we had a full outdoor kitchen (still do in WA but it doesnt get used anywhere as much). So it really depends upon where you live, how you cook, and what you use your stove for.

I have been educated by both of you thank you.

Cheers

I'd look at the Capital (which I'm not as familiar with as the other makes we've been discussing). I know they have a strong following here, and have seen the pieces. I felt they had good fit and finish, and I understand they have features such as a self-clean option. I'm not certain what the "Tru-Q BBQ grill" or the "INFRA-Q: (FOR GSCR AND GRT MODELS ONLY)" are, but I believe the latter is along the lines of the Wolf being described -- Given that EuroStoves carries both Capital and BlueStar, you can probably get a fair read from a dealer's perspective on those. (Yes, I'm a EuroStoves customer completely across the country.)

No sweat hotchpotch. We're all passionate about our kitchens and cooking or we wouldn't be here.

One thing I'd like to add is that unless you really need or want to grill indoors often, going from 6 to 4 burners on a 36" would be painful.. at least for me. Not that I regularly have more than 4 things going but when I do, I don't know how I'd do without. I guess it would just take longer to make a meal in some cases. In the end you have to decide what you really need/want. I can sear meat indoors with a cast iron searing pan. I know it's not the same but I just don't need it often enough to make me want to give up two burners.

Basically, if you already do a lot of grilling outdoors and have not been prohibited by the weather, then you have to ask yourself how often you would use the indoor grill. On the other hand if you said, I really don't use my outdoor grill because of the weather but end up using the oven or (eek) a counter top electric "grill" all the time, then maybe a grill top would be good. Make sense?

Finally, I meant to ask... what did you mean the Bluestar "looked scary on top"? That seemed like an odd comment.

When I said it[Blue Star] looked scary, I meant that it was so open and industrial-looking - especially compared to the other "pro style" ranges. I did talk to a dealer yesterday (who seemed like the most straightforward and truthful so far), and asked him about repair calls on wolf, thermador, capital and dcs. He said wolf hands down. Said nothing bad about capital, just that they haven't been around as long. Said DCS tends to have electrical problems, and Thermador has more repairs in general. So he's getting me prices on all of them for Monday, and then I'm going to pick something. I'm leaning toward the wolf, 6 burner all gas open burners. I figure I can get one of those griddle things that fits over 2 burners, or, as one of you said, sear things in a cast iron pan. I think it will be the most expensive, but I'll just see. I went back and looked at the capital, and I think it's attractive and it's self cleaning, but I do understand the drawbacks to sealed burners, which it does have.
I also may have to get a high-priced fridge (sigh) - that was one area where I thought I could save some money, but the space for it in the plans is extremely tight (it faces a wall, so it needs to be true cabinet depth 24"- not the 30" cabinet depth with handles ones that are cheaper). I'm looking at a Liebherr 36" french door one. It seems like a great fridge [on the small side] and beautiful looking, and several thousands cheaper than a sub zero. but still 2x more than the Kitchen Aid one I wanted. Wah.

Stay away from Kitchen Aid, they're in denial as it regards issues with their ovens. In 2004 we purchased the Kitchen Aid Dual Fuel Convection range and have regretted the high priced purchase ($2800) ever since. Experienced nothing but problems, repairs have been numerous, the door is still lopsided after repair broke two, can't clean the oven without having to call repair afterwards, and now the oven is once again inoperable. The same problems continue to plague the machine, again and again. As of tonight we've decided to dump the stove. Dinner was burned while the temperature was set to 350 and the broiler engaged. Even with the control knobs turned off the broiler continued and the door locked, which resulted in the food or pot knobs/handles catching fire and necessitating disconnection of power. My eyes are still burning from the smoke. After waiting until the oven finally cooled, we turned power on and the safety lock finally disengaged, but even with the controls turned off the broiler once again turned on. This is not the first time this has happened or the first time this issue has been addressed by repair. Tired of calling repair we learned that sooner or later the broiler won't go on, and all will be normal for months at a time. KA suggests turning the breaker off and calling repair as it is a fire hazard. Been there done that, but after numerous repeated repairs KA still refuses to accept that the unit is a lemon or that they're selling faulty equipment. Now we're out of warranty. Figure that during the first year of ownership KA paid more for warrantied repairs than we originally paid for the unit, and due to repairs we were without an oven for approximately one-eighth of the short life of the unit. KA might look like the one you want, but remember - looks don't always matter.

Great thread! I'm looking for a 36" range and was leaning towards the Bluestar. After reading this and other threads (and looking at the EuroStoves clips) I'm convinced that the open burners outperform the sealed and are not more difficult to clean (perhaps easier) and I kinda like the scary commercial look! But now I'm also thinking an infrared grill would significantly outperform the standard grill on the BS, so I'm leaning towards the Capital. As the username indicates, I live in MN, so I love the idea of being able to grill year-round.

So now my only question is: is it really feasible as far as smoke? I've read some of the recent threads here re: ventilation hoods and there's a lot of discussion about noise, and what is generally adequate for a given size range/cooktop. But not too much about sheer performance. I'd love to hear from someone who does some smokey grilling (brats, marinated chicken breast, NY Strip w/ all that delicious fat, etc.) or other activities like pan-searing a roast. Does a good hood make such cooking possible without smoking out the house? If so, I'd be ok with a less-than quiet or even somewhat loud hood for the 10-20 minutes needed. If not, I'd have to consider just leaving the grilling for the outdoors, and taking the grill out of the choosing-a-range equation (which could tip the scale back to Bluestar).

Anyone love their hood for its kick-b*tt performance, noise aside? Would a well-installed 42" x 37" 900cfm hood over a 36" range with a 12" grill get me to the promised land of indoor grilling? Thanks! -Steve

Hi steve-in-min
Just to answer your question about hood size: I was at a wolf demo showroom, and was told if I wanted the stovetop grill feature I would need a 27" deep hood for a 36" stove (instead of a 24" deep one). Also, you would need to get the fan going at least 10 minutes before you grill, just to get the air moving. I'm really torn about what 36" range to get. Our kitchen project has been delayed, which allowed my mind to wander further and further. I went from a wolf open burner to a Lacanche(!!) cluny back to Bluestar and DCS. I think I'm back to Wolf open burners, but now am tempted to get the grill w. 4 burners instead of 6 burners. Everyone I've talked to says not to do it because of the big mess it makes. But I love to grill + I live in the Northeast and I can't easily grill outside in the colder months. I was told I could use the chargrill cover to shield the other burners while I was using the grill, but that would mean not cooking on the stovetop while I use the grill.
can't decide AGAIN, feel like a yo yo. The choice of stove is the most important appliance choice for me.
sigh

I had a range grill in prior homes, never used. I grill outdoors and outdoors only. For those with outdoor grill access, why bother.

hi annie, i have the 48" american range. it has sealed burners. when they get dirty i take off the top covers and throw'm in the dishwasher. end of story. the fans are quiet, the lights in the oven are great. wifey loves the performnce and i like the quality & service.
john
917-842-1809