My downstairs neighbor has a Dacor range. Admittedly, it is over ten years old but she thinks it is horrible and can't wait to get rid of it.

I am just finishing up my kitchen this week. At the last minute, I upgraded to the Diamond from the Dimension. For me, it wasn't about the wifi. It was the auto close and the LED lights that did it for me. It was a huge $$ upgrade (additional $800!), but if it is in your budget, I would do it. I love those two features. And there was never an issue regarding another brand--I had a Miele before and would never change. Maybe get one of each?

On the fridge, if you don't have the budget for SZ, I would go with the Liebherr french door. Another neighbor just installed it and she loves it. Personally, I just got the new SZ french door (replaced a SZ side by side). Love the shallower depth, being able to see all my food at once and not having to bend down to open the produce drawers. You wouldn't get that with the Samsung. The only issue on the Liebherr is that the top shelf is very high, which could be a downside if you are short.

I would go with two of the lower level Mieles. My Diamonte continues to be a good replacement for the Hobart Kitchenaid mid grade with a 35 year life we replaced.

DUAL-FUEL VERSUS ALL-GAS STOVES:

I think Dual fuel stoves get knocked by CR essentially for a bang-for-buck reason. Dual-fuel stoves usually carry a a price premium but do not do all that much better at the basic baking tasks that CR uses for its ratings. In years past, electric ovens were thought to heat a lot more quickly, ran more evenly, and could provide third-element convection heating. Gas ovens have gotten better than they used to be and some of the perceived advantages of electric ovens have been muted by the increasing use of hidden bake elements. Some stoves are definitely better than others which is what you can see in the CR ratings.

Two thing you can get with electric ovens are: (a) better self-cleaning functions and (b) more flexibility with convection than with gas ovens. Actually, a lot of the pro-style all-gas ranges do not have self cleaning, at all. Self-cleaning on pro-style stoves seems variable. CR does not think much of the self-cleaning functions on the 30-inch pro-style DF stoves but many of the 36-inch pro-style stoves get pretty good marks for self-cleaning and most oven functions. CR does not rate any 48 inch stoves. (It buys everything it tests and those are probably beyond the budget.)

Electric ovens give you convection options you do not get with gas ovens. Having recently gone from a stove with third element ("true") convection --- a GE dual fuel -- to an all gas stove with only a fan (an NXR), I have noticed a couple of things. One is that the GE convection mode did a better job of evenly baking three sheets of sugar cookies than my NXR does with two sheets of them. (With the NXR, I need to rotate the trays half-way through.) The other thing that GE had was the ability to run the convection fan while controlling the upper-heating element for browning roasts or the tops of biscuits. It is not that the NXR does not do a good job, it is just that I need to figure out work-arounds. I'm pretty sure it will the same with any all-gas stove.

One other consideration is that electric ovens tend to put less hot air in to the kitchen. At least until you switch on the convection fan.

DACOR PRODUCTS:

Dacor has a pretty small market share so it is hard to gather reliability data in any meaningful way. There are numbers of negative postings about the company having had trouble with durability of integrated circuit panels and such.

"HUGE" SAUTE PANS

Probably a benefit rather than a problem. Dual-stacked burners such as those found on DCS, Wolf and the NXR are larger than found on major-brand stoves and all seem to be do better suited to cooking with large pans. By way of example, what I discovered with my NXR's 15k btu-hr Isphording burners is that I got faster boiling with larger diameter pots. Using an 8.5-inch diameter 12 quart stock-pot, it takes about 22-24 minutes to boil 6 quarts of water on my stove. With a 10.5 inch stock-pot, the time dropped to 15 minutes. With a 13-inch diameter canning kettle, the time dropped under 14.5 minutes. Similarly, I've found that my 12-inch skillets are easier to work for sautes and stir fries than the small pans I favored on the old stove.

DCS OWNER EXPERIENCES:

There are a lot of postings, so do a search. Weissman has had a DCS stove for about a decade and has posted a lot.

I'm not sure about the 48" ranges, though. Might take some digging to turn up much useful info. You might get more info if you start a new trhead asking specifically about the 48-inch DCS models.

SAMSUNG VERSUS LIEBHERR

You say you want to avoid through-the-door dispensers. AFAIK, both of the larger capacity Samasung CD fridges have through-the-door dispensers.

There have been a lot of postive postings about Samsung FD and bottom-freezer fridges here. CR's annual membership surveys on reliability show Samsung on par with Whirlpool products with an industry leading about 11% problem rate for FD/BF fridges in the first five years of ownership. Samsung's problems in the past have been: (a) issues with its SxS fridges (LG and GE hhad similar problems); (b) difficulty with parts availability;and (c) out-sourced warranty service. Most Samsung owners seem to have been pleased but those with problem units have been particularly irate.

I have a 36" DCS all gas, and I have no trouble baking and roasting in the gas oven, although I had always had electric ovens previously. I couldn't justify the upcharge for DF, especially when there were reviews on this site that implied the lifespan of them was reduced due to the computer bits getting fried by the high heat generated by the cooktop (or something like that). The AG unit uses simple, reliable, old fashioned technology, and I expect it should last much longer. If you are also installing a wall oven, I would have that one a convection electric, if you really have need of three ovens.

I applied the price differential of AG vs DF to my ventilation system which turned out to be a lot more $$ than I had ever imagined it could be, due to code-required heated MUA. With a 48" range, the venting requirements will be significant.

>>>" The rep today made it sound like all pro chefs use gas,"I cannot let this pass unremarked because it strikes me as a silly, snobbish thing for a salesperson to say.

First off, the epithet "Professional" is often salespeak for "premium priced luxury products." The term "commercial" is used to describe the equipment used in institutional and restaurant kitchens. Neither of these labels makes any difference to choosing between dual-fuel and all-gas stoves.

Second, emulating "profesionals" seems a little silly. The ovens in commercial stoves do not have broilers. Often, there is a separate broiling device called a salamander. So, if "professionals" in restaurants use salamanders, does that mean home cooks should throw out their ovens with broilers?

Third, when talking about the fuel used by professionals, does that mean we should all be driving diesel engined vehicles because that is the fuel that most "professional" drivers use? Or should we all be switching to special blend and nitro fuels because that is what "professional" drivers use at tracks?

Seems to me that that, if somebody really wants a true "professional" kitchen of the kind found it institutional setting or restaurants, then they should tile the kitchen walls, sprinkler the ceiling and buy restaurant equipment including ventilation systems with make-up-air and fire-supression. Then hire a collection of social misfits to staff the operation. Can you tell that I've worked in restaurants? ;>)

To put it differently, a dual fuel residential stove is not for commercial kitchens but it may very well be an excellent choice for home cooking.

And, btw, numbers of commercial kitchens hereabouts have electric convection ovens for baking. Nothing unprofessional about electric ovens. It just depends on what you want to bake and how much you need to have them running.

Those economics are not applicable for even most avid of us in a home kitchen. Well, except maybe for relatively short times during canning season. Even then, however, the energy load for a home kitchen is far, far less than it would be for a commercial operation.

If you want to look into the energy use aspect, check out

http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/

Run through his appliance use calculator. For myself, with local public utility rates at about 11.7 cents/kwh, I found that, notwithstanding all the cooking I do, going to an all gas stove will save me, maybe, $15 per year over what I was using with my dual fuel stove. Compared to the induction stoves I was looking at, getting an all-gas stove will save me maybe $25 per year.

Obviously, where you live affects the rates and the economics. I live in town where our power comes from a large regional public utility company. A mile or so way, out in the county, where our local rural electric coop is being plundered by so-called de-regulation, some folks are getting charged close to 35 cents/kwh. Obviously, gas will be significantly less expensive for them.

But I digress. The question is whether you should consider electric convection ovens. I say that you should decide that question on what you plan to cook rather than what somebody thinks "pros" use.

In that regard, something else to consider is finding a showroom where you may be able to test-drive the stoves and their ovens. I believe I have read that both Wolfe and Viking do this, and I've seen several dealer websites where they offer live cooking demonstrations with the equipment you might be considering.

I did not see the good points made by cooksnews before I posted my last thread. All good points, indeed, expecially the one about ventilation.

Wow - thanks everyone! I had clicked the option for getting e-mailed when responses were posted, but I didn't get any (went to spam). I figured nobody had replied, and then I checked and saw this... Thank you! I knew gardenweb was the solution.

So, all points are well taken.

Two followups though:

1. We bake a TON. Should that make me lean toward electric with convection? The ability to cook multiple trays of cookies is a huge draw. On the other hand, we don't want to be limited. We also want to balance basic functionality without too much in the way of fancy shmancy bells and whistles, but also don't want to be turning and rotating trays more than needed. I think I am leaning gas/convection. Does anyone know if DCS does this well? Also thought about KA wall ovens, but feel like if we're going DCS, we should go that way for consistency, especially if we use both ovens for massive batches. On the same note, I am worried about one gas and one electric for the same reason. Unfounded concern? What do folks with two ovens on here do? (We'd use the mini oven for proofing).

2. Does anyone have thoughts on the utility of the griddle? The DCS griddle would be pretty small, but I imagine I'd like it. The Dacor has a HUGE lay over cast iron griddle which seems more versatile, but I like the idea of the build in that you just turn on.

3. For the Samsung vs. Liebherr, I am not tall, but not short. 5'9". My wife is 5'2" and I think the top shelf may be difficult. Also, from a practicality standpoint, I think I like the depth of the deeper fridges... Is that inexperience talking? I worry about not being able to throw in a box of pizza when kids come along, and figured Samsung to be a middle ground with the dual evaporator function (is there any reason to think that the freshness benefit will be any different in a samsung vs. SZ vs. Liebherr with dual evaporators?). All in all, I feel like the samsung seems more "everday" practical, but I can already imagine kicking myself in a year if it fails and I wish I had the Liebherr. At the same time, if I spend $5K on a Liebherr and nobody can service it when somehting goes wrong, could go the other way. What is a reliable source for...well, reliability?

Thanks again for all the great comments. I totally agree about not caring what pros do - I just want to do what will work best for us.

>>>"Also, from a practicality standpoint, I think I like the depth of the deeper fridges... Is that inexperience talking?"Not at all. Have confidence in your preferences. I just went through buying a new fridge. I liked CD fridges because my old-house kitchen is narrow. But, for me, CD fridges wound up being less fridge for more money. I would up with a standard depth fridge because I needed and wanted the greater capacity.

My take on the dual evaporators is that it seems like a good idea but not a crucial one. My old vintage 1998 Maytag kept greens fresh for as long or longer. The key there was humudity control in the crisper drawers.

As for whether Subzero or Lieberr are "worth it," try searching on that idea. There is a long running thread with that name which will give you every kind of viewpoint on that question plus some data and experience that you can apply to your own situation.

As for usability, it would really help for you to see things in person. What may be useful for me might be annoyingly inconvenient for you.

>>>" Does anyone have thoughts on the utility of the griddle?:Have you searched on griddles here? Seems that I've seen a bunch of discussions foing back years. Some people like a carbon steel griddle you can lay across burners when you want one and remove it when you do not.

>>>"We bake a TON. Should that make me lean toward electric with convection?"No clear answer to that one. WIth my new NXR and its fan-driven gas convection oven, I've found it does a better job with bread than my three-element GE dual fuel. Multiple racks of sugar cookies were less evenly browned. So, its a trade off. If you are considering wall ovens, get electric wall ovens and gas stove. You've got all bases covered.

Additional question: We are thinking we're leaning toward the DCS 48", but I am worried that the 11" griddle is so small that it may be useless...in which case a 36" all burner model would be better.

When we looked at the Dacor, we did love the HUGE grates of the 48" with only 6 burners (and an overlay griddle)... Does anyone here own a DCS, and have an opinion about the grate design/real estate for large items? And should we be worried about the sealed burners spraying the flame too wide for an 8" omelette pan?

I own a Dacor 36" electric convection oven, a Dacor 36" warming drawer, a Dacor microwave/convection oven, and a Dacor 30" gas cooktop. I also have a 60" American range with six burners and a raised griddle and salamander, and two large ovens, all gas, along wirh a 72" custom hood, fire suppression system, etc. The purchase of so many Dacor items was prompted by having loved my larger Dacor cooktop in another home, nearly twenty years earlier, and by my desire to have something in my kitchen with less fire power than the American range, so that I could simmer easily. In seven years, the circuit board on the wall oven has been replaced--under extended warranty--three times. My DH says that, much as he used to like Dacor, he would never purchase another Dacor item. Adamdoc, I don't know where you are, but we are in a rural location and the person who was a certified Dacor repair person retired. That left a gap in my ability to get new circuit boards authorized, and therefore periods of time during which the Dacor wall oven was useless. All other Dacor appliances have worked flawlessly.
My take: do not purchase a Dacor appliance that relies on computerized circuit boards. The boards will get fried, initially after long self-clean cycles, but sometimes after normal self-clean cycles, too. Additionally, and this is purely a matter of personal preference, think about whether you want your cooktop to push you around, so to speak. As a secondary cooking area, a cooktop that dictates what size pot I can use in what spots is acceptable to me. I would emphatically not want that feature in a primary cooktop, however, And, yes, to answer one of your questions directly, the flame distribution dictated by the sealed burners is sub-optimal--once again, okay in a small, auxiliary cooktop, but not in a primary cooktop. Open burners are far superior, in my experience.
Were I allowed only one cooking device, it would be the all gas range. Roasting and baking are both excellent, wok cooking is fabulous, and the thing always, always, always works as it is supposed to. I would add that roasting is superior in the gas oven. Baking is probably a toss-up. The convection feature does speed up cooking times, but baking involves larger than I like temperature swings. While this is common to electric ovens, it is not a desirable feature. I also have a single, portable induction burner. Had I known more about induction when we built this home, I would have made a provision for a built-in induction burner. Fabulous for simmering!
One other note: the only time I use the griddle is when we have a full house. A narrow griddle would, indeed, be a pain. I do tend to spread out when I cook, however. Smaller, narrower areas are comfortable for some people, but not for either my DH or for me. Incidentally, we have also had professional chefs cook here, and they always comment on how much they enjoy cooking in my kitchen. They use the big range exclusively, I've noticed.

>>>" And should we be worried about the sealed burners spraying the flame too wide for an 8" omelette pan?"For cooking omlettes or other medium to low heat applications? Not a problem. If I recall correctly, the DCS burners are the same as or similar to the "dual stacked" units on the NXR and Wolf stoves with which I am familiar. Heck, I regularly use a 5.5-inch saucepan and regularly use a small non-stick pan with a six-inch base for fried eggs.

It can be a different story for very high heat applications with smallish pans as, say, for stir-frying in that omlette pan (assuming it is a traditional carbon steel pan rather than non-stick). The size of the burners means that a full-on flame will be spreading up the sides and heating the air rather than the pan. Star-shaped open burners are said to be better for really high-heat applications with small pans. But, are you really planning on stir-frying in small pans?

Sealed versus open burners is a longstanding and ongoing debtate which stirs vigorous passions. Do a search on "sealed versus open burners."

>>>"I am worried that the 11" griddle is so small that it may be useless...in which case a 36" all burner model would be better. I think you are correct and I agree with kitchendetective on this. I have a Lodge cast-iron griddle, which is roughly the same size as the built-in griddle you were considering. It was barely large enough to work with on my old GE dual fuel stove and is too small for the more-widely spaced burners on my NXR. In either event, the size is not convenient for production work when I have lots of guests. I use that cast-iron griddle mainly for camping and outdoor cooking.

For an indoor griddle, I suggest looking at the Chef King models which are made of carbon-steel with dimensions of 14 x 23 and have handles on either end. If you check out the thread "NXR vs AR performer," you can see photos by Nunyabiz of a Chef King that has been in use for several years on his four-burner NXR. Some friends of mine have one too and use it often with their 36-inch NXR. Another friend of mine has an old 40-inch Wedgewood stove with a built-in griddle, which is maybe 10 inches wide. He prefers to use it as a french-top and uses a cast-iron skillet for pancakes and other griddle food.

All that being said, there doubtless are some folks who find the narrow built-in griddles useful. Heck, GE is putting small griddles and griddle burners on its Cafe line of stoves. Somebody must like them. Have you tried searching here on "griddle?"

As for skipping a built-in griddle and getting the 36-inch stove, that also can ease the budget for the vent hood. Basically, you want a hood that extends out three inches to either side of the stove top. You may still need to think about make-up air, but going down a size in stoves may pay for that.

You did not mention a range hood in your posts. Maybe, you may already have that part of the remodel figured out? If not, there are numbers of very informative threads here at GW.

Hi all - thanks again for the great feedback. For ventilation, we are going with a Best 54" hood and 1100 or 1500 (I forget which) remote in-line blower with silencer... I saw that mentioned somewhere, read up, and was convinced. I also saw a gunked up VAH, and was totally turned off forever.

As an update, we've decided on Miele dishwashers, I think the Futura Dimension (I think the plus only adds more quiet...which I won't notice). Dissenters welcome.

For the fridge, I don't think we can swing a SZ now, and the Liebherr is, indeed, way too tall for comfort. I think we are going to go with a Samsung with the dual evap. Can't find a good, large FD model with inside water, but we're working on it. Seems you need to downgrade cubic ft.

Our final major issue is this:

Wolf vs. DCS (I really can't seem to find the benefits of Wolf other than "reliability and history", variable simmer, and no yellowing problem with the top). We are really torn. Everyone who doesn't sell DCS says they're crap. Everyone who does says they're awesome, but that Wolf is better...because they also sell Wolf?

Also, dual fuel vs. all gas. We are definitely getting an additional wall oven, and I can't decide if it is nicer to have the option of two types, or to stick to one type and brand?) for consistency with large, multi-oven batches. What I really can't figure out is how much more inconsistent baking will be in an AG Wolf or DCS oven (ie. 3 sheets at once, without tons of turning).

Obviously, AG saves quite a chunk of change, and then we could really get any wall oven...considering the KA convection with micro over it, honestly, to not only save money, but to have a reliable, and just fine oven that will still be leagues better than anything we've ever had in an apartment. Then, we can always replace with something fancier down the line. We just really don't want to skimp on the range at this point. I am open to KA slams, if anyone feels we absolutely must stick with a Wolf or DCS oven for some reason or another (the price difference isn't entirely prohibitive, and we can work it out if anyone thinks that quality and/or features are worth it).

So to sum up, we really can't decide on gas vs. electric ovens, and DCS vs. Wolf. I think my wife may throw out my computer if I don't stop reading on it soon!

Personally, I'd get the AG range (and I LOVE my DCS, FWIW) if you are also doing an electric wall oven. Each fuel type has its strengths and weaknesses, but either in the brands you are looking at will work very well. Bake your 3 simultaneous trays of cookies in the wall oven, and roast meats, bake breads or broil in the gas oven. The infra-red broiler in a gas oven is fabulous, compared with any in an electric oven.

Thanks a ton, cooksnsews. Does it bother you that DCS doesn't self clean? Honestly, I have never really used that function in an oven, but we haven't had any major messes either. I am sure we will once we live in one place for more than a year!

Also, do you have a DCS wall oven? Warming drawer? Other DCS stuff?

The oven in my DCS range is my only one. I've never had a kitchen big enough for multiples. As it is, a 36" range is a bit of an extravagance for me, but I do love it and use it.

About self-cleaning ovens.... I've only ever had one, and it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. It still had to be wiped out after the cycle was finished, it pitted the racks unless you took them out and cleaned them the old-fashioned way, and it stunk up the house during operation. Modern ovens have concealed elements (DON'T use oven liners!!!!!), which make it easier to clean up spills as they occur, and to reach the corners when cleaning the Easy-Off way. I try to "manage" the splatters/overflows, and only do a real manual clean once a year or so.

I've really enjoyed reading this thread as we are also in the middle of a major kitchen remodel with all new appliances. It'll be a few months before they're installed and I can comment on performance, but I did a lot of research and think we made good choices.

For the oven, we purchased the 48" Blue Star (1 0f 6 that was used on the upcoming season of Next Iron Chef) and it has 6 open burners with simmer, 15,000 & 22,000 BTU ratings, a grill and two ovens one of which is gas convection. It was very important for me to get an open burner having used a semi-open Viking cook top for over 15 years. The Blue Star is manual clean - and after many problems with self-cleaning ovens over the years, I'm fine with that. In addition to the range, we also bought a Bosch 30" electric convection oven.

As for the refrigerator, I really wanted the SZ, but it just couldn't fit our budget. As a result, we got a 48" Liebherr for an incredible price. As a short girl, I was also a little worried about that top shelf, but after some reconfiguration, it will work for me.

Did you finish your kitchen? What did you decide? I would love to hear any follow-up. I am in the process of building a new house and outfitting the kitchen. I am faced with the same decision... DCS or Wolf. I love the dishwasher drawer too, which is free with the range.

maybe too late for the OP but for others..

Miele Dimention Plus is more quiet but that shouldn't make a big difference.. Normal cycle is pretty quiet already and the extra quiet cycle takes a lot longe (like more than an hour longer)

But besides that the "Plus" has Drying plus. which opens the door a little bit during the drying cycle to let all the steam out. It makes a lot of sense to me so that's what I have. The dishes always dry well.

do not buy a kiebherr - had a problem with the ice maker ever since I bought it. Terrible service. Kept sending me replacement parts. Broke only after 3 months and continued with ice maker problems. and have been without an ice maker ever since. It's been about 5 years now. I will NEVER buy or recommend Liebherr. Am happy with my Gaggenau ovens (especially the combi-steam) and the Blue Star range. Don't mind spending the $ but not for a lemon and indifferent service. DO NOT BUY A LIEBHERR refrigerator - at least not one with an ice maker!

Hi all - this post really got some legs. Thanks for all the feedback. As an update, we hit about a gagillion tons of rock, so we got delayed. We are about to sheetrock. I'll keep you posted. We decided on a Samsung Fridge, DCS 48" with 6 burners and a griddle (not ordered yet), and the DCS wall oven/micro/warming drawer combo. We'll get a Futura Dimension DW (I actually like that it doesn't pop the door open - seems like a potential safety issue with cats/dogs/kids), and the DCS dish drawers that are free with the range. If anyone is interested, we found an awesome sink on Build.com (stainless 36" farm sink with apron), and I hope it is as great as the reviews make it sound. Can't beat the price either. Photos to come, eventually!

I can't comment on you cooking delima other than to say I purchased a gas convection range and I'm very happy with it. My budjet and space allowed for a 30" gas so I got a frigidaire gallery model.

For fridge I chose a floor model close out KA. French door. It has the ice maker in the bottom and a filtered water tap in the left side. I wanted ice and water I. The door but only LG sold this in 33 inch size and it was out of my price range. I was Lucky to find the Ka on close out otherwise I may have got a whirlpool side by side that I may not have been pleased with.

Having the water inside it does stay cleaner and is less of a device issue than the water & ice dispensers are. I think it was a good compromise and I like the clean look with out the dispensers. I have had the KA over a year and its trouble free. Close friends have a Samsung fridge and like it.