yes nil13, I have read about that thermal thing . . .nice idea if you live where the sun is strong enough to warm up big barrels of water during a winter day. Guess I'll be bonked anyway I go . . . electric bill heightens in winter,(use those elec heaters in kid's room & bathroom upstairs, early in winter mornings) kerosene stinks, flame, etc. No natural gas nearby. Thinking about talking to local fuel oil place, they have propane tank on my property that runs the generator when there is an outage. If too expensive, it's a no go . . . . Yes, those propane tanks that you use on barbeques are handy, but yes it's hard to keep track when they run out . . . We'll see. Appreciate all of your input.

Cayveman, I finally checked back on this thread. It's about thermodynamics and the conservation of energy, so in easy to understand terms when you have energy input (like the voltage and amps going to the heater) and what comes out has to be the same because the energy can't magically increase or be destroyed. It's simpler with electric resistance heaters because inefficiencies that we normally see in motors, pumps, etc. manifest themselves as heat which in this case we want. So the energy (kwh) can be directly converted to Btu's (Btu = Btu/hr average x number of hrs on). The reason I say Btu/hr average is that the heaters thermostat turns the heating element on and off. As for the heat lamp vs a std lamp, if they both draw 100 watts of power, they have the same heat output in Btus to a space. The std lamp would have a higher lumens (measurement of light) per watt but even the light after being absorbed and reflected by surfaces converts to heat. So there is ultimately no difference in the heat added to a room. Other items in your home such as TV's, dishwashers, etc. are not 100% efficient at doing the intended task, but all the input power in them as well converts into heat. So a dishwasher or refrigerator running helps heat your house as well as a portable heater in the winter but adds to the air conditioning load in the summer. Calculating the heat output is easy because all of the inefficiency of the motors and circuits in your appliances result in heat. That is not the case with your electric water heater because much of the heat is dumped down the drain with your bathwater and only a part of the heat stays in your home. Lastly concerning heating of air or water, the equation is the same for sensible heating or cooling (w/o removing moisture like an Air Cond. in the summer). What I think everyone is interested in is heating the space so a thermostat will show a higher temperature in the room. There is radiant heating used in non heated spaces where people have to stand in a line of site of the heater to feel the heat but that is like standing in front of a fireplace to keep warm. The equation for heating air or water is: Btu = mass x heat capacity x Temperature difference The difference is that water has a spec. wt. of about 62.4 pounds per cubic ft (Varies with temperature and can be found on the web.) Air is only about 0.075 pounds per cubic foot. (Varies with temperature and can be found on the web.) Also the heat capacity of water is 1.0 Btu/pound - deg F while that for air is 0.24 Btu/pound - deg F. Example: Small bathroom 5 ft x 9 ft with 8 ft ceilings at 40 degrees F. We want to heat to 80 deg F using a portable electric heater having an input of 1500 watts ( 5,119.5 Btu/hr input = output). Volume = 6 x 9 x 8 = 432 cubic ft Mass = 432 cubic ft x 0.075 pounds/cubic ft = 32.4 pounds Specific Heat of air = .24 Btu required = 32.4 pounds x 0.24 Btu/pound - deg F x (80 - 40) deg F = 311 Btu kWh= 311 Btu x 1 kWh / 3413 Btu = 0.091 kwh Time required to heat the room = 311 Btu x 1 hr / 5119.5 Btu = 0.0608 hr = 3.64 minutes You would actually take more than 3.64 minutes because you would be heating all the fixtures, walls, and if not insulated well other adjacent rooms. I asked my mailman if I could borrow one of his edenpure heaters for a test just to compare what Im describing above, the heating of a small bathroom with two types of heaters just for fun. I have the equipment to measure input energy and the air temperatures would have to be measured in several areas in the room every 30 seconds or so and recorded. There wont be a difference because its impossible but it might be interesting to post the test results. Could be done in the summer but you would have to heat the room to 100 deg F to get good results and preferably before the sun comes up (to eliminate another factor) and at about the same outdoor air temperature. What goes in has to be what comes out. It cant disappear or get larger. Not talking about heat pumps or air conditioners right now as that is a more complex subject and those units have COPs and EERs associated with them where the heat addition to a space is higher than the compressor energy used. They still dont violate the laws of thermodynamics about the creation or destruction of energy. Again this isnt saying everything is 100% efficient. Its just electrical appliances, heaters which wont have 100% efficient motors but the inefficiencies manifest themselves as heat. I used to sell pumps as a sales engineer and our pump curves would show the pump efficiencies which would vary depending on rpm, flow rate, and pressure. What this meant was that the motor and pump when combined might only be 75% efficient and was determined by tests performed by the pump and motor manufacturers that were shown on graphs that engineers used. The efficiency the manufacturer stated was based on the actual power required to pump a given flow and pressure compared to the theoretical power required (based on another engineering formula). All the electric power (watts) into the motor ends up as heat while moving the water. Pumping the water even heats it up slightly. Hope this clarifies things and I havent been too long winded. Even if its stored by being absorbed by a piece of copper it eventually is released into the air. It has to be the same as what's input. The same is true of a 100 watt light bulb no matter what type it is, although a heat lamp having larger diameter wire inside its bulb outputs a smaller percentage of light and more heat

When we bought this house 30 years ago this month, it had a porte cochere and a second house in the side yard that had a shed like garage. After about five years, we tore down the old house as well as the Porte cochere and built a family room addition with a bedroom and bath and added a two car garage. The garage faces the side street. We park in our garage. Although it is not overly large (24x24), but because it is fairly organized it holds a lot of stuff. We park in it comfortably with an Acadia and a highlander. It also holds: four whitewater kayaks, two bikes, a refrigerator (the beer fridge); the 2 outside trash cans; various paddles, life jackets and boating gear; boating and bike helmets; some camping gear (camp chairs and stoves); three shelving units ( one for tools, one primarily for DH's swift water rescue gear, and one for gardening stuff). Then there are various paint cans, a few sheets of wood, ice chests, etc. When I think of how much we easily store in the garage AND comfortably park there with just a little organization, it boggles my mind that so many homeowners can't park in their own garages -- and I thought we had a lot of stuff! Basements are not common here due to the water table, but is wish we had one, for the tornados. Our drill now is to don our kayak helmets, grab the dog, and huddle in the hallway. It's a study house and could probably withstand a little one (and has) but you're always worried about a big one coming your way. We do have an attic which is good for storage, but we are gradually cleaning it out -- we are on a five year mission to declutter, give away, and simplify before we move to our (yet unbuilt) retirement home in a few years.

They are likely saving $$$ because they are not heating their entire home but rather only the room the edenpure is in...nothing wrong with that...just that you could do the same thing with a $25 heater....though I admit it may not look as nice and perhaps be a burn hazzard. Re: FYI: Emergency heat is an electric coil in the airstream of your heatpump. It consumes the same wattage per BTU produced as your Edenpure. If the emergency mode can't keep up, it is either undersized, broken or control issue not kicking in all stages. Our unit is 20 years old and we had an estimate to replace which reccomeded the emergency heat (plates or something)be of greater size or capacity since the ones in there now are marginal for the house size. It (heat pump emergency heat) may consume the same as other heaters but a space heater in a room will not run as long....again its only heating that room. RE: Those amish heaters...ok they just make the wood mantal and the heater is thrown in for free....I find that commercial ammusing...I also chuckle at the part where that proudly state that the heater 'earned the coveted UL approval'...HA---so did my alarm clock!