Bought my home 6 years ago...keep smelling dank odors coming up from the basement, discovered the drainage from the toilet to the septic was never vented through the floor/walls to the roof. There is a short 5-6inch stack just below the floor, leaving me with only 2 inches there. How to I vent this properly without having a pipe running through an upstairs room or hallway. Looks like no matter where we vent this to our roof, the pipe from the toilet to the septic isn't under any walls or closets to hide it. I wanted to be able to put a vent free propane heater down there if the furnace isn't working in emergencies, and I realized an open flame down there could be dangerous because of the gases coming from the septic and this pipe. How did this pass inspection?! How can I vent this damn pipe out horizontally, safely?

Thank you so much for your swift and wonderfully detailed response. Your knowledge and experience is a great help to us. First, let me say that our initial gray water system drain setup was just a test to see how it was working before we finalized the system. We had plans to drain into a storage tank system if we exceeded the Tucson, AZ gray water guidelines which are much less stringent than Californias gray water guidelines as a result of AZs restricted supply of fresh water and our states desire to conserve the limited fresh water supply we have. Fortunately, we do not exceed our local gray water guidelines as our gray water is only from one shower and does not run off of our property. If I understand your statement: "if you have a 2" pipe with a ¼" per/ft pitch the maximum distance from the trap weir (the point on the trap where the inverted U section turns horizontal on the output side) to the vent opening may not exceed 2" / .25" = 8" then we are OK as our vent pipe is almost exactly 8 from the trap weir. Im not sure what this means: "Under the Uniform Plumbing Code the maximum developed length of a 2" waste arm may not exceed 5." But since we are under and are within the specifications of - the local Tucson, Pima County, AZ plumbing gray water guidelines it might not matter. Do you happen to know whether there is a limitation on how far we can run the drain before the actual drain opening into the perforated pipe youve proposed? Right now, our run is about 60 from the drain in the shower to the end of the gray water drain pipe. Regarding the vent pipe rise: I can replace the 2 flat vent pipe run with a 45 degree bend then take that directly to the 10 vertical vent pipe. Or replace the tee and this time turn the tee up and set the branch off point from the tee to the vent pipe at 45 degrees instead of (almost) parallel to the ground like the existing one is set. Thanks for clarifying this for me. I believe federal law supersedes state and local law. However, the AZ Department of Environmental Quality clearly spells out the guidelines for using gray water at home in Arizona. I have pasted an excerpt of the guidelines at the end of this posting, along with the web address for the entire brochure. Thank you also for the estimation of water usage per person per shower: "2 occupants x 25gal/person = 50gallons/day" There is nothing else hooked up to this gray water drain system, only this one shower. So 50 gallons/day is about how much water will be going out for gray water irrigation. And this information you gave us is invaluable: "You could then connect your pipe to a perforated pipe, which has a minimum volume of 50gal, but the total overall length of the perforated pipe may not exceed 100. A 3" pipe has a volume of 2.75gal/ft so a 3" line 137.5 long would contain 50gal, however, the length of the line exceeds the maximum allowable length of 100 so you would have to increase the line to 4" diameter. A 4" line has a capacity of 1.53/gal so you would need 50gal x 1.53ft/gal = 76.5 of 4" perforated pipe." This formula will help us calculate what kind of leach field we need based on the length of the run of the perforated portion of the drain pipe. The entire width of our back yard (the part were trying to irrigate) is not much more than 70. Right now, the gray water from a 10 minute shower wont even make it to the end of the temporary test trench I dug from one end of our lower back yard to the other. And the water never even runs off anywhere into the back yard at 102 degree Fahrenheit average daytime / 90 degree Fahrenheit average evening temperature the water doesnt even sit in the trench very long. What doesnt get absorbed into the dirt right away evaporates pretty quickly even in the evening. So I feel confident that were not going to exceed the basic requirements from our local and state laws. The local plants and critters (lizards, ants etc.) are having a great time at our new back yard oasis though! My wife and I really want to thank you for all your time and for sharing your knowledge and experience. The information you provided will help us set up our gray water system so it is safe, efficient and environmentally sound. Thank you very much again. Here is the information I mentioned earlier: http://www.azdeq.gov/environ/water/permits/download/graybro.pdf The basic requirements to use gray water at your home are simple: Residents must adhere to the guidelines for a Reclaimed Water Type 1 General Permit. A Type 1 General Permit requires no formal notification to the department, no review or design approval, and no public notice, reporting or renewal. Although you dont have to apply to receive a formal permit for permission to use gray water, you must abide by the 13 best management practices (BMPs) listed in this brochure, which were developed to protect public health and water quality. Permit Eligibility and Usage Requirements The general permit is meant for private residential use only. Gray water must be used on the site where it is generated. The area of use cannot be accessible by the public. Under this general permit, gray water can only be used for irrigation not for dust control, cooling or other water uses. Only drip or flood irrigation with gray- water is allowed. Spray irrigation is not permitted due to the potential for inhalation or drifting off-site. Gray water flow must be less than 400 gallons per day. In general, no city, town or county may limit the use of gray water if the use is allowed by this general permit (ARS §49-204). For a copy of the gray water rule, call the nearest ADEQ office or download it at: www.azsos.gov/public_services/title_18/18-09.pdf. The gray water rule can be found in Title 18, Chapter 9, Article 7.

"I feel for your SD because it must be crushing to have to relearn all over again that her mom does not care to be involved in her life. It seems that SDs will always give the BM the benefit of the doubt and will forgive and think they might actually come through this time, so it is like a fresh cut each time. SD wants BM to be if not involved at least more interested, and in our case, SD does not know where her rage comes from, but I know it is from not getting the attention from the one person she wants it from the most. I have told DH, I am here - I am the one doing the raising, disciplining, loving (as hard as that can be sometimes), but it does not matter because she needs her mom. Let me clarify, she needs who she wants her mom to be. Her mom talks a good game to SD but getting her to follow through is difficult." EXACTLY!!! Thank you mama22 for sharing. Sylvia~ DH & BM shared 50/50 custody without a court order until SD was in 2nd grade. During that year, BM threatened DH for the umpteenth time that she was going to take SD away & not let him see her because he didn't do what she wanted. I take the blame in sharing my experience in family law... I told him he has RIGHTS but without a court order, she very well could take SD & he had nothing to say he has a right to see her. So, after the third time she threatened him with that, he filed to get his rights on paper. She immediately filed for full custody & child support. (He didn't file anything for child support because if they both have 50/50, they are each supporting her the same... but the issue of support was brought by BM initially) She spent the duration of the battle (about 6 months) telling SD how "daddy is trying to take you away from me" and reassuring her that she won't let that happen. She tried to manipulate the therapist, got SD to tell the therapist that she really wanted to just live with BM... but then SD had no explanation of why. Then three weeks after their trial & DH getting his court order for 50/50, BM moved during DH's week & kinda dropped SD in his lap saying she couldn't take SD with her so she's gonna let him have her "temporarily" and that devastated SD. Within a few months, SD was telling classmates she was moving with BM & saying her goodbyes. BM was telling her how we took her away but that she was going to get her & she was going to go live there with BM. It was all lies. During the first year, BM canceled weekends which only made SD more emotionally upset. We would make plans to do fun stuff to keep her mind off it, but SD would spend the whole time talking about "if my mom was here ______" and though she was in counseling, she refused to open up. Instead, she said what she thought everyone wanted to hear. She got bad about lying to her second counselor, pretending everything in the world was fine... she doesn't NEED counseling. But, all along, BM has been the one keeping it alive. When she would come get SD, she would always (yes, every time) show up hours early & sign her out of school early. SD wasn't doing real well to begin with because of her emotional stuff dealing with BM moving away so suddenly. Finally DH told her she had to let SD finish the day in school because she is falling behind & needs to be there as much as possible. It wasn't convenient for BM to wait around so that's when BM started sending grandma to get her. That was three years ago. DH took BM to court a year later asking that only BM may pick up SD. Grandma was picking her up & taking her to BM (sometimes keeping her instead too) but BM was not giving her much attention, which caused the emotional problems to get worse... so DH figured if he got an order forcing BM to come get her, she would either drive up to get her (showing she cared) or cancel more time, which was kinda what we were hoping. We did not want to ask the court to cut off BM's time because all along, BM has been feeding SD lies that we are just trying to remove her from the picture & that would have seemed true if he tried to cut off BM's time. We've tried involving her in activities so she would rather be here than with BM... none of it has worked. BM has insisted all along, SD will eventually live there. I think SD stopped trying in school because she figured it doesn't matter because she's going to be leaving to go live with mom anyway. As long as BM continues to feed SD lies & false hope with promises, and as long as SD believes (or wants to believe) BM will follow through, it feels as if we are stuck. It seems like SD knows her mom is full of it, but she's not ready to admit it or face it. I think it has been a very slow process but seeing mom have another baby that not only gets to live with her, but since the baby is the string to holding on to the BF, BM appears to dote on him to SD (plus babies need all the attention too). Personally, I think BM schleps him off on others most of the time but doesn't want us to know that so she dotes on him around SD, which only makes things harder for her because she has struggled for years to get mom to pay attention to her & her mom, in trying to show us what a happy family she has with BF & baby, it's probably a knife through SD's heart each time. SD is realizing that BM is probably never going to seek custody of her and have her live there, especially now that they had to move from a fairly huge 4 bedroom house to a 2 bedroom mobile home. and Friday, SD saw that mom could care less what happens to her as far as school goes. I think SD knows that she won't be living with BM next year & BM says "I don't care if she has to repeat 6th grade again!" I mean, I don't always get along well with her & I do come across as harsh sometimes, but I care what happens to her. I think it's important for her to have an education & the biggest reason I am in favor of holding her back is because DH told her that if things don't improve, and if she keeps getting F's in multiple classes, he would have to hold her back because it indicates she is not ready to do more advanced work. But we don't WANT to see her held back, we want to see her work habits get better because each year, the assignments get harder. The bottom line is DH said it will happen if she continues to lie about finishing or turning in her work. She just admitted that she goes to a morning tutor class where she's supposed to bring questions about math & get an understanding so she can improve, she admitted she goes to the class & just sits there. Well, we all have been getting up an hour early twice a week for her to go so she can get help understanding math but her grade actually went down since she started it. We understand she has problems but she also needs to be at least trying, but she's been giving lip service and holding her back is a last resort. BM didn't want to discuss options to help her... so seeing her mom has an "I don't care" attitude, I'm getting hopeful she is going to come around. I saw something in her face I had never seen before and it just broke my heart. Another reason I think she and I have not been able to get along is that I think she knows that I don't believe or buy into her BS... she knows that I know what her mom is all about. I'm sure she knows much better because she is behind the scenes with her mom & hears her mom lying about stuff she knows about. She's now getting to the age where she's figuring out that mom lies to her the way she lies to everyone else. But, by no means have we been dragging BM into SD's life. Personally I think SD would be better off if BM would either step up or step off.. but this constant roller coaster she keeps her on is so hard on her. I don't know if that dynamic can be changed as long as SD fantasizes about living with her mom & BM keeps the dream alive with empty promises. We cannot financially afford to instigate a court proceeding to limit BM's contact, although it has been suggested that he seek supervised visits because of how BM discusses everything with SD. Me personally, I have been so frustrated I have welcomed the thought of SD going to live with her mom. AT least then she would see that it's not the fantasy that she has drummed up in her head. BM is focused on the new baby & trying to salvage her relationship with BF. I think deep down, SD knows it but still fantasizes that it would be different if she just lived there. The worse part in SD's situation is that it's such a long heartbreaking process to go through... and she may never actually give up on the fantasy. We can only hope.

ejbrymom, yes I do like the Kitchen Aid. I am not a big cook but I do like the Power burner. (Plus I liked the look of it.) The tile is from a local store in MN. I am sure if you Google it you can find a retailer in your area. Thanks for the compliments. Fun to see people like it after three years. Hi hockeychik. It is hard to believe it has been three years. Just when all the remodeling nightmares went away I decided to start on the second floor. Nothing compared to the first floor (and no kitchen.) Good luck with your kitchen! bostonpam, let's get some morgue drawers on the East Coast! Thanks for the walk down memory lane. It is so nice not to be TKO. It is so funny to think how bad I was. Could have used an intervention but I hung around a site with some worse than me ;-o