I just remember being told by the salesman at the time that unless you have super bad water, we didn't need the water softener. I live in Atlanta and no one here has water softeners as far as I know. Do you have hard water?

Our water is moderately hard. Not too bad, but enough that it was a factor in our DW decision-making.

I think if you stick with the Optima or Excella models, you'll find yourself very pleased with the capacity and versatility of of the Miele racks. Both models come with what Miele calls the "Advanced Lower Basket". Lesser models come with a standard lower basket, which is not nearly as versatile.

The advanced basket has "Plateguard" racking along the left side and the fold-down "Stemguard" feature. The plateguard slots are spaced plenty wide enough for even the heaviest earthenware or pottery plates. Platequard prevents plates from clanging together if the lower rack is moved too fast backwards or forwards. I routinely place large heavy soup plates in these slots with no problem at all.

If you want to wash over-sized balloon wine glasses or tall champagne flutes, simply fold down the stemguard holders, and you can safely wash really big or tall glasses. I use this feature all the time for Riedel Vinum burgundy glasses and champagne flutes, and I've never lost one yet.

I've found the best spot for cereal bowls (at least for the ones I use) is the sideways slots at the right front of the lower basket. Saucers and small plates fit there equally well, too.

I can get far more into a Miele dishwasher than in most others I've used. Once you get used to the Miele racking system, I think you'll find the same is true for you. Whenever you try loading a dishwasher that you're unused to, you'll find it awkward the first few times, so reserve judgement -- you'll quickly adjust.

One other nice feature of the advanced lower basket is that nearly all of the racking can be removed or folded flat, providing large flat spaces in the basket if you need to wash something large and awkward.

Finally, if you haven't been troubled with spotting from hard water in your current dishwasher, chances are you won't need to use the onboard softener on a Miele. If you do need to use the softener, filling the salt reservoir takes only a couple of minutes, and usually only needs to be done once every few months. You just open the reservoir, and pour the salt in. If you use Somat or Miele brand dishwasher salt, the entire package contents will fit into the reservoir, once the "add salt" light illuminates.

If ever there was a thread that called for pictures...

I'd take one of our Excella to show how we load it, but it's running right now.

I have the Excella. I have very thick stoneware plates and cereal bowls and some thinner Corelle Ware plates. With the bottom rack configuration I put the thick plates on the left side (when facing the DW) and the thin ones on the right. This leaves room for pots, other stuff in front. As for the cereal bowls I usually put those on the second shelf along the left side b/c they are so big and thick. I love the flexibility of the Excella and that the second shelf can be raised or lowered as needed to accomodate either the first shelf tall items or the second shelf taller items. It is just a joy to use! I hope you enjoy yours!!
Carolyn

What's your take on the Excella's split cutlery tray, Carolyn? Years ago we had a Miele with a one-piece tray, and I recall liking it better.

Here is a link to a post containing pictures of my normal loads in my Miele Laperla. Same racking system as the Optima

Here is a link that might be useful: link to load pictures

Thanks to all of you who took time to respond. I feel I can now purchase the DW without worries, and without having to re-wash still dirty dishes coming out of my current DW.

I found this video on youtube that compares a Miele capacity against two others.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dishwasher Load

When I first purchased my La Perla I did find the basket configurations a challenge. For someone like myself, who uses a lot of bowls as opposed to plates, the dishwasher basket configuration is not as flexible or accommodating. There are some sections that can be removed for larger items, but this does not necessarily properly accommodate smaller bowls. The placement of the tines is a pain if you load a lot of deep bowls.

You sound like you have some specific needs, I would take some of your bowls to a local shop that carries the Mieles and see how you feel. Then try some other brands like Bosch, see which ones accommodate your needs better.

The one thing that has frustrated me about my Miele -- and there are very few things -- is that the basket configuration seems designed more towards china plates rather than bowls and thicker pottery plates.

Seconded, and the bowls don't have to be particularly deep to be awkward to load securely (hate the sound of loose items when closing the door or running the DW). Putting bowls in the middle rack is generally not an option because it is usually full of glasses, mugs, and plastic items.

Scroll up and look at the pictures I posted from last year, or the ones I posted from June in the other post about Miele DW not cleaning cake pans. Are your plates thicker than the everyday ones I am using? Are your bowls smaller or deeper? Can you give me the dimentions of them?

I don't think our plates (Dansk Bistro Christianhavn) are anything out of the ordinary. We have four kinds of bowls, fruit/cereal, soup, all-purpose, and pasta (also serving bowls, which we don't use as often). None of them load particularly well in the lower rack.

{{gwi:1471807}}

Here is a link that might be useful: Dansk Bistro Christianhavn Blue

You could try putting some on the front right, or right side of the lower rack but you probably cannot fit a lot of them in the front. I wash glasses in the lower rack in the plate rack. They lean against it and also the curved part on the right side of the plate rack will hold them so you could try moving some of the plates to the right side or right front and move some glasses to the plate rack. This may free up some space in the middle rack.

Or remove the plate rack and place the bowls there, while putting the plates on the right side.

How does this look? I can attest that the results were good.

If the results were good, it looks good! If you ever have stuck on food in the bottom center of the bowls on the lower right side you might want to tilt them over a bit so so that a stronger water stream can reach inside.

I also use that open space in the center of the lower rack for items that will not fall thru the wide spaces. Sometimes I anchor an item on each side which leaves the water to flood up the center area. I wonder if the multi-function basket will fit in that space?

By the way I like your dishes. I took a look online and see these are at Macy's and there's one not far from me, so maybe I will take a look in person. Very nice dishes.

We were kind of tapped out after our renovation, so we had to skip the $110 multi-function basket. Do you ever remove the vase/bottle holder? I often find it gets in the way. I'm not sure I'll ever cram as much in our Miele as you. Are you the same way when packing the trunk of a car? I am, and I'm proud of it.

We bought our first set of Dansk at a local store and our second at a Dansk outlet in Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario. The prices at Dansk.com seem pretty good, and I've been happy with their service. That's where I bought our bread and butter plates, and fruit/cereal bowls.

I think the basket came with my machine...I didn't know they were trying to sell it for $110. Not sure I would buy it. The literature says it is designed to fit items for baby bottles and other small objects, but I did notice that you can stack small plates in it too just like the plate rack. It can go in the space in the middle basket that has the small plate rack. You remove the plate rack and insert it.

I use that space for glasses so I've never inserted the basket, but after thinking about it wondered if it would go in the lower rack. I'll have to try it. I did buy two large plate inserts that hold large serving plates on an angle. So far they have never been in the machine either. I have an SUV and I guess I haven't packed anything into it..more like throw things in there.

I want to hold the dishes and inspect them before I make any decision so that's why I was thinking I would go to Macy's and have a look. The web site also has a few different patterns to choose from. Some of them look interesting too.

chipshot

One last thing not on topic but I think you said your wife likes to prewash the dishes before putting them in. You should try the Economy cycle. I use it for my regular stuck on soil loads and it does a good job, so it should do very well with your soil level. Try it and see.

We have the incognigo the intergrated one where you put your own custom made panel on. I have no problem loading ours, we have the big tray at the top for all the cutlery, it can also come right of of the dishwasher, to unload. {{gwi:1471809}}{{gwi:1471810}}

I loaded mine last night ala jerrod6 - I just crammed everything in - multiple levels - I was shocked and amazed that it all came out clean! I realize now I can fit much more in the dishwasher than I thought.

I have to post my pictures again sorry. {{gwi:1471811}}{{gwi:1471812}}

I tried a (for us) "cram load" tonight. My wife asked "are you sure?", to which I replied "we'll see later tonight or tomorrow". Minutes later, our oh-so-smart Miele alerted us that its lower spray arm was being blocked. Sure enough, a bowl was sticking through "that open space in the center of the lower rack" described by jerrod6.

Next up, our hood baffles. What cycle should I use for them?

hood baffles - are they full of grease? I would use either the sensor, or heavy soil cycle. If they are tall or big and may not fit in the bottom then I would use the "Large items soiled" cycle. You remove the middle rack and wash only in the bottom. This cycle uses hotter water than "Large items normal".

I'd say the baffles were lightly greasy (I'd rather not let them get full of grease). They fit nicely into the lower rack (after I folded down the tines in the right rear corner), with no need to remove the middle. Is there any reason not to wash other items along with them? Should my usual half-tab do the trick? By the way, last night's big load came out - as expected - just fine.

Great they fit! No reason not to wash other items with them unless the other items are fine dishware or fine crystal. Your wife is still into pre rinsing right? Try the half tab. If somethings don't look so great next time try a full one. If you are always using 1/2 tab every once in a while I would use a full one and pick a hotter cycle - just to keep the DW clear.

I mentioned in another thread that I've been measuring the inside water temperature near the end of the main wash.
So far my machine has used:

Normal 116F
Sensor 123F
Heavy soil 150F
China/Crystal 111F
Economy 125F and second run 131F
I am going to use water save on Friday and measure it also.

I am surprised at the low temperatures, given the soil level of most of my loads..and still everything is spotless and clean. The service menu allows the temperatures to be increased if needed and the number of after rinses to be configured. I guess the machines are delivered configured in the low temp range. This makes sense because less energy is used and it is easier on dishes and glasses.

I bought Somat DW cleaner and use it every 4 or 5 months in the sani cycle just to keep things clear. I never bothered with this in the other machine but I figure it can't hurt anything. I use half a bottle in the wash even though the instructions say to use the full one. Also you can find DW cleaner in the supermarket too--cheaper than Somat and just as good in my opinion.

Let us know how the baffles turn out and what cycle you used.

The only removable hood parts I didn't put in the dishwasher were the grease rail, which was too long, and the "secondary filters" which the manual said to wash by hand with a mild detergent. I'll run them after I have lunch, probably on the heavy soil cycle cycle since I've never tried that one before.

The same wife who is into rinsing (last night: "that's gross; you can't put it into the dishwasher like that") is also steadfast about not putting the fine stuff in the dishwasher. I feel our Excella is a bit wasteful as a result, but I've found other reasons to appreciate it.

How do you pause your machine to take all those measurements?

I grew up in a household that never pre rinsed anything before putting it in the DW. I was required to help with the dishes. My mother had a 1971 KitchenAid Superba and it cleaned almost everything without pre rinsing. It used 13 1/2 gallons of water..doing it...but everything was clean. So I am not used to pre cleaning dishes before I put them into a machine to clean them.

"How do you pause your machine to take all those measurements?"

I use a instant read thermometer. Probably not the most accurate but it's what I have. To measure the incoming water I run a bit of water into a glass after the DW has completed it's fill then insert the probe(I run the water a few seconds to clear the line, then fill the glass). The DW is connected to the water line in the basement directly after the sink, so I figure that the water temp running from the sink faucet is at least the last temp that entered the machine.

To measure the wash I wait until there is 1 hour and 9 minutes left. I have watched my machine enough to realize that the main wash is going to end when there are between 59 and 52 minutes remaining. This varies a bit with the cycle running. You could also just wait about 35 or 40 minutes after the wash starts. There is also the possibility that the DW stops heating the water to let it cool down a bit for the rinse, so perhaps I will also try measuring after 35 minutes just to check that out.

I lift the handle and wait a few seconds for the action to stop. Then it gets messy. I pull out the lower rack, insert the thermometer probe down into the white opening of the filter until it reaches the bottom and hold it there and wait until the highest temp reading is reached. You need to roll long sleeves up because water will drip on them while you are doing this. For the last rinse I wait until 25 minutes are remaining in the cycle.
My machine has the display screen in the door so these things are easy to see. The last time I measured the last rinse I waited until the DW started pumping out the water and opened the door that works too.

One thing to know is that if the water temperature is HOT when you close the door the DW will NOT automatically start again. Instead it will wait a few seconds, then start and stop a few times. I was told that it does this to equalize any pressure caused by HOT water...I don't know what this means but that's what I was told. It only does this if the water is hot and steamy.

After I get sample readings of all of the cycles I use I will no longer stick around to take measurements but it is interesting to see the variations even among the same cycle.

I admire your dedication. Couldn't you put a remote temperature sensor in the dishwasher and avoid having to open the door?

"I admire your dedication. Couldn't you put a remote temperature sensor in the dishwasher and avoid having to open the door?"

I would have to buy a setup for this and it would have to withstand water and heat. How much would this setup cost? I don't know if I am THAT dedicated.

I ran the water save program cycle today and checked the temps out. I waited 30 minutes into the wash. The temperature was 118F. After I restarted the machine the countdown delayed. When I use this program the wash usually lasts 40 minutes but it was about 15 minutes longer due to my opening the door. At the end of the wash I measured again and the temp was 125F. The last rinse was 150F.

So for the cycles I usually use; sensor, water save and energy save I am satisfied with the low temperatures and good cleaning they provide. Heavy soil is at 150F and that is great for stuck on greasy items. Normal was 116F which is OK but I don't like the 2 prerinses before the wash but it may make sense if the wash water was only 116F. When I do a cheese, starch, or sani program cycle I may measure the wash temp for these too.

Chiming it late...

We actually ended up with the Diamante instead of the Optima precisely because the older bottom rack seemed to fit our bowls better. We use cereal and big, deep noodle bowls quite a bit more than plates. Putting bowls in the middle rack is rarely much of an option because of the cups and mugs and larger utensils (like tongs), so pretty much all dishware has to go in the bottom.

We've found that the best way is to put plates on the side with 'tines' leaving the side with the 'grooves' for the bowls. With large but thin bowls (like the one in the top of the pictured I've linked to below), if they're positioned just right--slightly diagonally spanning two grooves--they sit relatively securely. I can get about 5 bowls in with that configuration.

Small rice bowls, such as the one in the picture with the spoon inside it, slip neatly into the smaller tined area which, in the Diamante, is in the front of the basket.

Anything with thicker sides like this one won't fit anywhere other than haphazardly.
http://shop.heybama.com/images/DSC02832.JPG

Here is a link that might be useful: Chinese bowls

Surely a Miele has a diagnostic that reports the internal temperature reading on the display. My DishDrawer does.

I have a volt/ohm meter with a temperature probe, thin wire that may work through a door seal. Displays either °F or °C. $35 at Lowe's.

The only temperature diagnostic I have seen on my machine was when the Miele tech person was here to look at my washer stand. While he was here he said he would check out my DW(at no cost) to make sure everything was OK.

I started a cycle and as the DW was running he attached his laptop to the DW screen using an optical interface. A grid containing component information values appeared on the laptop screen. It showed information such as water hardness, the target water temperature, the current water temperature, water softener functions, pump rpm, control valve statuses, current water pressure, switch and control positions and many other things that I know nothing about. The information was changing as the machine was moving through the cycle.

He checked the control board history for recorded faults, and moved the machine through different cycle phases and functions using the laptop. So while the water temperature is available to the technicians in this manner I haven't seen it listed in a way the user can see it.

I can go into a menu and read the water hardness of the last cycle, but so far have not seen any option to let me check the water temperature of a specific part of a cycle. There is a menu option that will allow you to adjust the soil sensor, and another option that lets you adjust the temperature display between F and C, but I have never seen a temperature displayed. There is another menu called the service menu with options that will allow you to modify the number of after rinses, change the global region code so that the machine operates as for that regions specifications, and there is an option to increase the water temperatures. Maybe that's were the temperatures are listed.

Thanks for the suggestion of the temp probe. I dunno I would be afraid of compromising the seal by sticking anything through it. Is the wire coated? If not it may scratch the sides and inside of the SS door since the seal is not on the door but is on the tub.

I love my miele as long as I don't have to get it fixed. The salt is not a problem - - that is the reason I bought it instead of a bosch - We have well water that is hard or harder according to the weather. I think I have put salt in the thing 4 times in the last six years - so all the salt I bought in France last time I visited languishes. It does like rinse aid. The most annoying is that while under warranty you need to call miele and then they try to figure out the problem while you're on the phone and then they call the service guys who call you. You might get someone at your home after a week. Much better once you're off warranty - you can call the service guys directly. Would recommend them highly if there is a reason to go miele instead of bosch. For us it was the hard water.

The multimeter is an Ideal #61-312. The temp probe wire has a braided covering, probably vinyl or plastic of some ilk. I checked the temp in my DishDrawer last night. Set the probe dangling at the right-front corner, closed the drawer, started a cycle. The lid sealed well-enough to not leak.

How many of you take this step (see link below) before loading?

Here is a link that might be useful:

I never pre wash and haven't done it for the last 3 DW I've had. With today's enzyme detergents which eat food, you will ruin your dishes if you pre wash the food from them before sending them through the DW. No food for the enzymes to eat?..well there's always the glasses and plates.

NEVER. Its' dangerous to your dishes.

Maybe I should start throwing in something for our DW to "eat" when DW (the other DW) insists on pre-rinsing. I've showed her that the DW can clean dirty dishes, but she can't seem to break old habits.

Either that or cook oat bran cereal. I have cooked oat bran cereal every morning and I cook batches in small Corning pans. The stuff gets cooked on and is sticky. I let one pan sit, then the next day I cook another batch in another small Corning pan..then both pans go into the DW along with other dishes, using the Sensor wash cycle. That's a outwork for any detergent. I've tried washing them with chlorine bleach based detergents but they won't move the cooked on bran...however....enzymes will.

Since my initial post popped up again I have a question maybe some of you can respond to. The warning for "middle arm blocked" comes on every time I really fill the bottom rack and I keep checking and nothing is blocking the arm. During a recent repair, the service man suggested that it's the sensor going off when it gets close to something, but the arm is not hitting anything. Does this ever happen to you?

Is oat bran cereal anything like steel-cut oats? I have a bag of those that I'm planning to try in our new rice maker. However, I don't think the rice maker's bowl is dishwasher-safe. Almost all our loads have been done using half a Miele tab, so that may help mitigate any damage. How often do you use a full tab?

We have a new La Perla and my everyday heavy (deep) plates don't fit well at all in the plate protector rack. I need to skip spaces to fit them. Otherwise I love the dishwasher. I was thinking of getting the "large plate rack" accessory that may fit my plates better.

Momotom

What model did you get?
I've not had this issue even when the bottom rack is completely loaded and it always is loaded. I think the sensor for the middle rack may be in the door..I think it expects a pass from this arm every few seconds and if it doesn't get it that's when you get the warning(I could be wrong about where this sensor is it could be on the sides too). Do you have anything very tall near the door in the front of the machine? The only time I've gotten the middle arm blocked message is when something in the middle rack was sticking down through it.

Chipshot

I've had steel cut oats..they are like oatmeal only more oat like and chewy. I think oat bran has more fiber and carbohydrate than the meal and this is why it is so sticky and difficult. If I run cold water in the pan immediately after cooking oatmeal it will come right off...but oat bran just becomes worse.

I am lazy and mostly toss in a full tab but I used 1/2 tab all last week. 1/2 tab works well but on some of the loads because they are full and heavy there was some bran left on other items(doesn't happen with full tab)..so I think a full tab is needed when you have difficult soil..however I could have used a more intense cycle with the 1/2 tab and this would have probably taken care of the bran. Then again I tend to really load items on top of each other which is not recommended either..but I do it with not much of a problem. This week I am using Cascade Gel.

lgrdh

Scroll up to the top of this thread and then down to see chipshots plates. Are yours deeper than these?

I have two large plate inserts but have never used them. I meant to order one but ended up receiving two. These hold the plates at an angle so I think they are for tall plates not deep ones. Can your plates fit into the spaces on the right of the bottom rack? They don't have to sit upright to get clean.

Thanks for responding, it's the Excella. Yes, I think you posted those photos of your average load. Mine look like that too. Again, told in person by the svs. tech. that even if it does sense something too close, as long as the arm is not physically blocked the machine will clean normally. What really strikes me as dumb, is the message flashes but has no audible signal. I mean my life is not exactly exciting, but I really don't sit and stare at the message display for 2 hours watching the time count down and waiting for messages...and what about those who have a fully integrated machine with hidden display? Kind of funny.

jerrod6: My plates are not necessarily deeper but they have a much wider and much more sloping rim than chipshot's that makes them more bowl-shaped overall. They are vintage Apilco restaurantware, so they're very thick porcelain -- like old time diner dishes. The plates don't stand straight in the tines of the dishwasher -- they slant because the rims tilt them. Hard to explain. Do you think the large plate inserts will help? The plates do fit somewhat better in the tines to the right, even though they're closer to one another, but they stand so straight in those that the spray arm barely clears. Thanks for your advice on this. We love the dishwasher, but my dishes fit better in my old KitchenAid!

Momotom:

Yeah I think it is strange that there is not an audible signal, on the other hand the signal on my microwave cannot be turned off. It sounds when the micro has completed and it will continue to beep all day if you don't go to it. I hate it.
I have the signal on my machine turned off. Not sure if it would sound for a blocked arm if I turned it on.

lgrdh:

I found your brand of plates at the Williams-Sonoma web site. I was looking at Miele DW brochures and noticed that they seem to have similar plates in their pictures. Check out the DW brochures online at Miele.com, select Dw and then brochures and scroll through the DW pictures...These can't be the same plates but they look similar to the ones at Williams Sonoma.

When your plates are on a slant do they hit against each other during use? What position is the middle rack set to? You can also position it so that it is tilted to one side.

The tall inserts hold the plates on a slant so I am not sure what impact this would have but I think the inserts accommodate plates up to 13 or more inches.

Also be sure to check the spray arm clearance after you have pushed the racks back into the machine.

Pre rinsing:

If anyone is going to pre rinse dishes it might be good to use the China Crystal cycle. In all other countries this cycle is called Sensor wash gentle. It is another sensor cycle like sensor wash but uses lower water temperature ranges and doesn't take as long. I've been using this cycle all last week without pre washing dishes and have gotten good results. Mine runs about 1 hour 35 minutes.

Does the china cycle do anything differently if your DW is connected to hot rather than cold water?

China/Crystal is for cold water hookup, so it can heat to the correct (lower) temperature. A hot water hookup could be too hot.

China/Crystal uses a lower temperature so for cold water hookup it will heat the water to this low temp.

Hot water hookup depends on how hot your water is. If it is coming into the DW at 120F or above the DW will of course use it, but will allow it to cool down to the temperature it has decided to use for the cycle. The parts of the cycle may also be shorter.

I have a hot water connection but it has a distance to go from the heater to kitchen area and the temperature varies with the seasons since the pipes, even though insulated, run through unheated areas. In the summer my hot water may only be 110F, now in December it is about 97F when it hits the DW.

I recommended using this cycle if you pre rinse because it is shorter, cooler and may be less likely to allow the enzymes full run with your not dirty dishes. HOWEVER...(just thought of this)if you are using the regular sensor cycle and the dishes are not that dirty the DW probably already knows this and is using a cooler temp with less time. I mention this because I just remembered my last run of the sensor cycle with a load of glasses and nothing else, and water change between the pre wash and wash was skipped, and the main wash only lasted 25 minutes..this compared to the sensor run before it in which the main wash lasted 62 minutes. So maybe I'm all wet with this idea!

My dw has a cold water hookup. After all this time and all the issues I had with it early on (and all the time I spent on the phone trying to get it adjusted) I've come to the conclusion that it's counter intuitive to have a hot water hookup and use china/crystal. I know they say you can, and its fine for many and everything else everyone has said. But the dw is engineered to heat water to the correct temperature but not to cool it down early or mid cycle. Just doesn't seem to make sense to me to fight the engineering when there's no loss having the cold water hookup (and switching is easily done or not particularly expensive -- it took my plumber 10 mins.)